Who is the best pilot in Macross universe

[ruskiiVFaussie]

nope, watch the scene again, by the time the scene changes, the yf-19 was clearly superior in all categories, despite its uneven performance. The yf-21 WAS more even but didn't approach the scores the yf-19 was achieving. the yf-21's scores were barely in the green while several of the yf-19's scores were at the functional edge of the chart and all scores were clearly in the green.

Given how poor the results of the yf-19's scores were pre-isamu and how high they were post, its pretty clear that isamu was the deciding factor in the yf-19's performance

Can i still bring Guld's "playing by the rules" scenario into play with Isamu pulling ahead in the tests?

Seriously, Isamu was on edge, and that's what made him a better pilot over Guld, who was still caught in his Zentran "follow the book to the letter coz it's how you were born and those before you are what you are today blah blah".

Isamu clearly was cutting ahead, with methods of like a 3% (or so lol) chance of edging out the 21 or f'n up from going overload. ala his first tme in the simulator lol. Coz the high percentage risks were the only way he could cut ahead.

I think... i may be wrong, but the limiters of the 19 are a figment of our imagination, this valk was born extreme and wasn't catering for a pilot that needed one (a limiter). I think the only way Isamu was able to pilot the 19, was going flat out, taking the 1% chances of succeeding to kick Guld out of the running. God i love both Valks equally now, gah it's hard to take one side. But i would love to have seen Guld let loose more, other than screaming out shooting 30 odd short ranges at Isamu. (want the same of the 21, flying upside down and the likes... the 21 is equal dammit you guys. It's the pilot.)

I had a few rums, so if you can't understand what i just mumbled about sorry lol.

Edited October 16, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Jeremy007]

Well I also thought that the YF-19 was a better aircraft once they found a pilot that could tame it, and flying upside down is not much of a trick it is 10 feet of the ground, but I always beleaved that M+ gave the impression that the 19 was a superior fighter.

this is the same impression i got. it really seemed like the anime was definatly pro yf-19 and made it out be a better mech.

[Mr March]

I always got the impression from Macross Plus that Isamu and Guld were almost equal in skill and ability, but Isamu was more talented and notable a pilot for his tendancy to take risks and push fighters to the limit. I don't think the YF-19 would have been as successful had it been flown by Guld and I think Isamu is mentally incapable of flying something like the YF-21. I think these two different personalities also had something to do with the message of Macross Plus, specifically about the virtues of risk and chance. The whole show is dedicated to pioneers and that fringe spirit, embodied by Isamu, permeates the entire production.

As far as fighters, I've never been under the impression the YF-19 was superior. The YF-19 is basically an advanced innovation of existing technology but still utilizes conventional design, conventional materials and conventional controls. I've always felt the YF-21 was more advanced, utilizing truly next generation technologies. However, I think the YF-21 was too advanced for it's time; too experimental with too many expensive technologies (BDI/BDS, composite material wing, etc).

I agree with ruskiivFaussie that the difference in performance benchmarks had more to do with the pilots than the machines. It's clear that Isamu was pushing the YF-19 even beyond what it was capable ("pushing spec") while Guld flew the YF-21 in a very controlled, limited fashion. But as was seen when the limiter was cut, the YF-21 can be truly awesome in the hands of a pilot who is cutting loose. I think that also speaks about the Zentradi nature of Guld and that he needed to cut loose in order to reach his potential.

On the issue of the Battroid arm wrestle, the YF-21 was always the defender in that contest and it's arms were always placed under more force than the arms of the YF-19. The YF-21's arms had to not only compete against the strength of the YF-19, but it was on the receiving end of the weight and kinetic force from the initial swing of the gun pod. It would be interesting to see how the YF-19 would fare under similar stress.

[eugimon]

Actually, I think isamu would have been just as, if not more successful in the yf-21. Isamu was shown to be able to visualize complex flight moves and aerial acrobatics and translate his mental vision into actual flight with conventional controls. Why wouldn't he be able to do the same directly plugged into the valk? Just because he's wild and reckless doesn't mean he's any less focused than guld.

[Mr March]

Because as I wrote above, Isamu's strength as a pilot is his willingness to push the envelope, test boundaries and fly a craft even beyond it's own design specifications. The YF-21's BDI system is built with a limiter that enforces a very regimented and controlled method of fighter operation. He would have hated everything about the YF-21's clinical, catergorized approach to fighter operation and wouldn't have been able to maximize the performance of the craft. Guld loved that kind of strict, disciplined control and excelled in such an environment.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Mr March

[azrael]

Actually, I think isamu would have been just as, if not more successful in the yf-21. Isamu was shown to be able to visualize complex flight moves and aerial acrobatics and translate his mental vision into actual flight with conventional controls. Why wouldn't he be able to do the same directly plugged into the valk?

But as we've seen, the BDI/BCS is too sensitive to even the most subdued thoughts. In other words, just cuz you think about it, doesn't mean you should do it. If Isamu got pissed off and thought about rampaging, the BDI/BCS might have picked up that brain activity and acted on it. Also, it was the YF-21 No. 2 that had a BDI/BCS. YF-21 No. 1 used a conventional system. However, No. 2 was the model that was promoted by General Galaxy.

Just because he's wild and reckless doesn't mean he's any less focused than guld.

Agreed, but the fact that he is wild and reckless might have caused even more problems for the YF-21.

[eugimon]

But as we've seen, the BDI/BCS is too sensitive to even the most subdued thoughts. In other words, just cuz you think about it, doesn't mean you should do it. If Isamu got pissed off and thought about rampaging, the BDI/BCS might have picked up that brain activity and acted on it. Also, it was the YF-21 No. 2 that had a BDI/BCS. YF-21 No. 1 used a conventional system. However, No. 2 was the model that was promoted by General Galaxy.

Agreed, but the fact that he is wild and reckless might have caused even more problems for the YF-21.

but the problem with guld was that he had repressed emotions and thoughts he ccouldn't deal with. Isamu was never shown to have such a problem. Again, I think that isamu would have no problem with the BDI system simply because he's already an instinctive pilot and one who is able to pre-visualize his moves. He's never shown day dreaming during flight nor does he have any repressed emotions/impluses like Guld has. Guld was clearly shown to have a much more fractured and compartmentalized psyche than isamu and yet he was able to pilot the yf-21 just fine.

[Jeremy007]

for the yf-21 to be truely succsesful and to get the most out of a fighter such as this, you need a pilot that shows no emotion whatsoever. As shown by Guld, any emotion/distraction causes the pilot/plane connection to break...sending you plummeting to the earth. If you are stressed enough, there is no recovery from that.

[eugimon]

for the yf-21 to be truely succsesful and to get the most out of a fighter such as this, you need a pilot that shows no emotion whatsoever. As shown by Guld, any emotion/distraction causes the pilot/plane connection to break...sending you plummeting to the earth. If you are stressed enough, there is no recovery from that.

I didn't get that at all, guld showed plenty of emotion, emotion was not the problem. Certainly when guld and isamu were dogfighting, guld showed just as much emotion as isamu and in the final missile volley against isamu, guld was outright in a fit of rage. I'd just like to point out, that Isamu, on the other hand, was never shown in cockpit as consumed by his emotions as guld.

The problems arose when repressed feelings or repressed impluse came bubbling up. The first time when isamu confronted guld and the repressed memories of guld's attempted rape of myung started to surface, and the second time, it was a repressed urge that the BDI system acted upon. Neither of those situations would have happened with isamu who didn't have any repressed emtions/impluses.

[Exsedol]

This is turning in to a "Best valkyrie" poll hehe.

He had an absolutely badass looking VF-1S along with his superb pilot skills. Max's still the best though.

Totaly true. Roy was just cool. And as your picture shows, the skull squadron was derived from the real Jolly Roger squadron which is what hooked me in the first place.

[Vic Mancini]

I think... i may be wrong, but the limiters of the 19 are a figment of our imagination, this valk was born extreme and wasn't catering for a pilot that needed one (a limiter).

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of conventional modern day aircraft have limiters on them? Surely the F-22 Raptor could pull more than a 9-G turn at high velocity if it was unrestricted, but doing so would black out the pilot and kill him so the internal computer probably limits him from making any kind of extreme maneuver that would be detrimental to a pilot with soft squishy organs. David Hingten, comfirm?

I don't think limiters are all that magical, to be honest...and there's no reason to think that the YF-21 was built with engines more powerful than the 19 or any sturdier of an airframe since both fighters were built at the same time. Logic dictates that the 19 probably could have accellerated fast enough to melt the paint off the wings and bank hard enough to crush internal organs, but the computer most likely limits the pilot from doing so just like the 21's computer does.

Don't let the conventional appearance and technologies of the 19 fool you. As I said before, it's still as much a next generation fighter as the YF-21.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[eugimon]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of conventional modern day aircraft have limiters on them? Surely the F-22 Raptor could pull more than a 9-G turn at high velocity if it was unrestricted, but doing so would black out the pilot and kill him so the internal computer probably limits him from making any kind of extreme maneuver that would be detrimental to a pilot with soft squishy organs. David Hingten, comfirm?

I don't think limiters are all that magical, to be honest...and there's no reason to think that the YF-22 was built with engines more powerful than the 19 or any sturdier of an airframe since both fighters were built at the same time. Logic dictates that the 19 probably could have accellerated fast enough to melt the paint off the wings and bank hard enough to crush internal organs, but the computer most likely limits the pilot from doing so just like the 21's computer does.

Don't let the conventional appearance and technologies of the 19 fool you. As I said before, it's still as much a next generation fighter as the YF-21.

modern day planes do have limiters, the B-47 famously had mechanical limiters on the throttle so that pilots wouldn't shake the thing apart while flying.

[Jeremy007]

I didn't get that at all, guld showed plenty of emotion, emotion was not the problem. Certainly when guld and isamu were dogfighting, guld showed just as much emotion as isamu and in the final missile volley against isamu, guld was outright in a fit of rage. I'd just like to point out, that Isamu, on the other hand, was never shown in cockpit as consumed by his emotions as guld.

The problems arose when repressed feelings or repressed impluse came bubbling up. The first time when isamu confronted guld and the repressed memories of guld's attempted rape of myung started to surface, and the second time, it was a repressed urge that the BDI system acted upon. Neither of those situations would have happened with isamu who didn't have any repressed emtions/impluses.

i didnt mean to imply that was Isamu was fit for the 21...he is not. I said emotion, you said repressed feelings...either way, for the 21 to operate at its max potential, it needs a pilot with neither of the two.

[EXO]

If put into the valks that they can excel the most in and put up against each other... Max would kick everyone's ass hands down... and not one on one either. All of them at the same time. even in a Qrau Max would wipe everyone out. One on one he'd still win hands down. Max and Millia together would be a slaughter.

[Zinjo]

If put into the valks that they can excel the most in and put up against each other... Max would kick everyone's ass hands down... and not one on one either. All of them at the same time. even in a Qrau Max would wipe everyone out. One on one he'd still win hands down. Max and Millia together would be a slaughter.

True,

He has proven that the equipment he flies is irrelevant to his skills.

[Vic Mancini]

True,

He has proven that the equipment he flies is irrelevant to his skills.

Max could pilot any Valk he wants, and Chuck Norris would still triumph victoriously armed with nothing but a slingshot and a marble.

[eugimon]

i didnt mean to imply that was Isamu was fit for the 21...he is not. I said emotion, you said repressed feelings...either way, for the 21 to operate at its max potential, it needs a pilot with neither of the two.

again, why? guld was flying just fine during the dogfight when he was all out raging. It only appears that the BDI needs consistancy not a vulcan. And if being emotionless was so important, why choose a pilot who needed to take pills to calm his nerves?

There is simply no on screen evidence to support the claim that the 21 needs an emotionless pilot. Some of guld's best moves happen during the end dog fight between him and isamu where isamu is constantly goading guld and guld becomes increasingly infuriated and frustrated. During the initial high manuvering missile test, guld also displays arrogance and pride, but here also the BDI reads him just fine.

Again, the only time the BDI doesn't read guld is when guld's mind becomes fractured and repressed, uncontrolled/unfocused emtions come out. During all of guld's other emotional outbursts, he remains focused to the job and is able to pilot the 21 quite successfully.

[warpaint22]

I would have thought that the 21 could be flown by any pilot with a small amount of training other wise how could it be a front line fighter if only selected pilots could fly it. Wouldn't this put the 21 behind the 19 in the super nova tests as only a few pilots would be able to fly her and also if you could not have any emotion then in battle 21's would be falling out if the sky when a pilot felt fear or any emotion that breaks his/her concentration. I beleave that the 21 had to redesigned into the 22 to be a successful weapon for the UN Spacy. I just always got the impression from the first time I watched M+ that the 21 was the plane to beat and the 19 succeeded as the next gen fighter.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Can't wait to sit down and watch the VF-22's in action..

Edited October 17, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Mr March]

I would have thought that the 21 could be flown by any pilot with a small amount of training other wise how could it be a front line fighter if only selected pilots could fly it. Wouldn't this put the 21 behind the 19 in the super nova tests as only a few pilots would be able to fly her and also if you could not have any emotion then in battle 21's would be falling out if the sky when a pilot felt fear or any emotion that breaks his/her concentration.

Perhaps I'm under the influence of fanon, but isn't the main reason the BDI system was rejected because it was too impractical for mass use?

Also, as I recall the YF-19 went through 7 pilots who couldn't handle the thing until Isamu came along.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

llol 7 pilots.. i can;'t remember that number wow.

[Sumdumgai]

Considering that the 21 was way more experimental and ground breaking (not to mention most likely bank breaking), it doesn't come as a big surprise to me that the 19 was chosen as the winner of project Super Nova. The 19 was way more traditional. The 21 definitely had enough potential and good points for UN Spacy to refine the YF-21 No.1 with conventional controls and redub it the VF-22.

[Mr March]

llol 7 pilots.. i can;'t remember that number wow.

It's straight from the Compendium, in the Programme section of the YF-19 Profile

[JB0]

nope, watch the scene again, by the time the scene changes, the yf-19 was clearly superior in all categories, despite its uneven performance. The yf-21 WAS more even but didn't approach the scores the yf-19 was achieving. the yf-21's scores were barely in the green while several of the yf-19's scores were at the functional edge of the chart and all scores were clearly in the green.

Given how poor the results of the yf-19's scores were pre-isamu and how high they were post, its pretty clear that isamu was the deciding factor in the yf-19's performance

Yup.

What with him taking shots at everything without waiting to see if it was a friendly or hostile target(Isamu DID shoot targets first... but Guld didn't shoot hostages), blowing Guld's targets up just to deny him points, and all sorts of other stunts, I think it's fair to say Isamu WAS the deciding factor.

...

Well, that and the fact that he was the only person that could keep the -19 in the air.

Remember, before Isamu arrived the -19 team was so far behind they were about to be booted just to save them further humiliation(I believe they said another crash would probably kill the project).

I think it's telling that the YF-21 was released as a special forces fighter... after being DUMBED DOWN.

They removed the BCS, got rid of the variable-camber wings, massively strengthened the frame(apparently, based on G limits), and THEN gave it to their elite squadrons as the VF-22 Sturmvogel II(replacing the VF-17 Nightmare, while the VF-19 Excalibur replaced the VF-11 Powder Keg).

Which plane would YOU give the best of the best? The better one, right?

Game, set, and match. Thank you for playing, your concession prizes are available at the door on your way out.

By the stats at the Compendium, the YF-19 was faster, but the YF-21 could pull more Gs(which I believe implies greater maneuverability. Correct me if I'm wrong, aviation guys.) and carry more payload.

This wasn't significantly changed in the production models, except for G limits(Basara's VF is also faster).

The VF-19F can pull more Gs than the YF-19 OR YF-21. Basara's VF, which seems to be the pinnacle of VF-19s despite the Rainbow Gundam head, can pull more yet.

The VF-22... totally blows the doors off the VF-19 in terms of G limits. Even Basara's version.

If you thought Guld went out kinda messily in Plus... the production model can do it quicker and dirtier than ever.

[David Hingtgen]

Ahh, the infamous "competition bars". Personally, I think everyone mis-interprets them:

It's not a grading/ranking. It's merely "amount of testing done in this category". Based on the YF-22 vs YF-23, and X-32 vs X-35. Planes aren't graded A-B-C-D or "100, 90, 80 etc. They are simply tested in many ways in many categories. There's many specific tests to do, and they either pass or fail---you have to complete X number of prescribed tests, then it's over.

I mean look---why would the bars move AT ALL if it was a grading system? If the second line simply measured "high alpha performance at Mach .8"--it should get the grade it does, and be done with with. But it keeps moving up--because they keep testing it under more and more conditions. The lines (all of them) keep moving up, because each plane keeps getting closer and closer to having all the required tests completed. When the bar is full, they will have finished that portion/category of the testing program as the UN Spacy requires for new planes.

That scene isn't showing us the plane's relative capabilities, it's showing us that the competition is coming to an end, and that both planes are nearing the end of the testing. It's showing us that one plane may be be closer to finishing than another, or that the testing is going unevenly--which REALLY makes sense. The YF-21 has an early lead due to the YF-19 crash, and its progress is steady. The YF-19 starts out behind, but then leaps ahead---but only in certain categories. You can bet that Guld does everything by the book and never "skips ahead" but you can bet Isamu would ignore missiles for a week and just explore high-speed flight.

Overall, the entire point of that scene is to show the passage of time as indicated by "testing to be completed" bars filling up--it's not a contest for CAPABILITY but a contest of getting done first. That is often the end-all-be-all of testing---being first and getting all the testing done. Doesn't matter if you were twice as good, if you took longer or didn't get that part of the test program done by the deadline. (And that IS how the JSF program was graded---being able to go 500mph faster than required isn't considered any better than going 10mph faster than required---you either did or did not meet the requirement, and proved it in testing by the deadline)

[Vic Mancini]

Ahh, the infamous "competition bars". Personally, I think everyone mis-interprets them:

It's not a grading/ranking. It's merely "amount of testing done in this category". Based on the YF-22 vs YF-23, and X-32 vs X-35. Planes aren't graded A-B-C-D or "100, 90, 80 etc. They are simply tested in many ways in many categories. There's many specific tests to do, and they either pass or fail---you have to complete X number of prescribed tests, then it's over.

I mean look---why would the bars move AT ALL if it was a grading system? If the second line simply measured "high alpha performance at Mach .8"--it should get the grade it does, and be done with with. But it keeps moving up--because they keep testing it under more and more conditions. The lines (all of them) keep moving up, because each plane keeps getting closer and closer to having all the required tests completed. When the bar is full, they will have finished that portion/category of the testing program as the UN Spacy requires for new planes.

That scene isn't showing us the plane's relative capabilities, it's showing us that the competition is coming to an end, and that both planes are nearing the end of the testing. It's showing us that one plane may be be closer to finishing than another, or that the testing is going unevenly--which REALLY makes sense. The YF-21 has an early lead due to the YF-19 crash, and its progress is steady. The YF-19 starts out behind, but then leaps ahead---but only in certain categories. You can bet that Guld does everything by the book and never "skips ahead" but you can bet Isamu would ignore missiles for a week and just explore high-speed flight.

Overall, the entire point of that scene is to show the passage of time as indicated by "testing to be completed" bars filling up--it's not a contest for CAPABILITY but a contest of getting done first. That is often the end-all-be-all of testing---being first and getting all the testing done. Doesn't matter if you were twice as good, if you took longer or didn't get that part of the test program done by the deadline. (And that IS how the JSF program was graded---being able to go 500mph faster than required isn't considered any better than going 10mph faster than required---you either did or did not meet the requirement, and proved it in testing by the deadline)

The anime isn't being aimed at aviation experts, it's for a much more general and less-knowledgeable audience. IMO, the bars on the graph are arbitrary in their individual meaning and the scene is a simply a quick graphic illustration to clearly indicate to the audience that the YF-19 team is winning in various [arbitrary] categories.

Nobody who is unfamiliar with the idiosyncrasies of the JSF program would interpret those bars as a "testing to be completed" indication. Sorry, I don't buy that that is the message the director is sending us in that scene.

I really think you're projecting what you want the scene to be about if you think the director is trying to communicate to us that Isamu is simply showing off and that the YF-19 is completing their testing faster without recording better results.

[Zinjo]

I think it's telling that the YF-21 was released as a special forces fighter... after being DUMBED DOWN.

They removed the BCS, got rid of the variable-camber wings, massively strengthened the frame(apparently, based on G limits), and THEN gave it to their elite squadrons as the VF-22 Sturmvogel II(replacing the VF-17 Nightmare, while the VF-19 Excalibur replaced the VF-11 Powder Keg).

Keep in mind that the VF-19 had two variants compared to the VF-17's one general purpose type. The VF-17 was a multi-role stealth aircraft optimized for all battlefield conditions.

The Excalibur (VF-19A & VF-19P) and the Blazer (VF-19D & VF-19S), both optimized for their specific service roles, unlike the multi-role fighters that typically came out of the Spacy's equipment specifications.

It appears that the 19 was one of the modern fighters where the production models are becoming theater specific, unlike the majority of the previous generations of variable fighters.

By having atmospheric and space variants, it makes one wonder if that is a new direction Spacy is taking with it's equipment? Moving away from general purpose aircraft and toward role specific variables of the same airframe. Similar to how the new F-35 Lightning II has 3 separate variants for the same airframe optimized for different roles in the armed forces.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Zinjo

[Sumdumgai]

Considering that Kawamori is a very big aviation buff, and part of the story is based off of the YF-22 vs YF-23 project, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it's as David Hingtgen wrote. When he put it like that it made sense.

The 21 has a much better payload and firepower over the 19. The 19 has one gunpod, two lasers that have limited range of fire in battroid (since they're mounted on the sides of the hip), and weapons bays in the legs that carry missiles and chaff/flares. The 21 has two non-reloadable gunpods, two forward and rear facing lasers that are mounted in the arms in battroid and gerwalk, and weapons bay in the back of the battroid/top of the fighter near the air intakes. The 22 has four more missile ports added onto it, located on the belly plates, and that's not even including the ability to carry two reaction warheads internally.

[eugimon]

Considering that Kawamori is a very big aviation buff, and part of the story is based off of the YF-22 vs YF-23 project, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it's as David Hingtgen wrote. When he put it like that it made sense.

The 21 has a much better payload and firepower over the 19. The 19 has one gunpod, two lasers that have limited range of fire in battroid (since they're mounted on the sides of the hip), and weapons bays in the legs that carry missiles and chaff/flares. The 21 has two non-reloadable gunpods, two forward and rear facing lasers that are mounted in the arms in battroid and gerwalk, and weapons bay in the back of the battroid/top of the fighter near the air intakes. The 22 has four more missile ports added onto it, located on the belly plates, and that's not even including the ability to carry two reaction warheads internally.

it may make sense if it was isolated, but as part of the montage, it's clearly designed to show that the yf-19 team was pulling ahead of the yf-21. Every shot in that montage showed isamu doing everything first and doing it better/ in a more extreme way. Frankly, the simplest explanation is the one to go with when watching visual media and the simplest explanation is that isamu was kicking guld's butt. Besides, even if you want to say it was isamu completing the various tests before guld, all of the yf-19's ready checks were ahead of the yf-21's in the graph. Every single one and 2 or three are completed while NONE of the yf-21's were. Again, the deciding factor is isamu.

And yeah, I will argue that isamu was a better pilot than guld, but it's pretty clear that the yf-21/vf-22 was the superior valk.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Another point, who got to fly the "flying bicycle" (sorry i had to use that hahha) .. Isamu did while Guld an Myung watched.

Again, Isamu taking the risk. I wonder if those two ever had a fight over who would give it a fly first?

Umm, i am forgetting some dialogue in the movie/ova, i can't remember them bringing it into their reconciling period

before the Ghost appeared and ruined the moment.

This disscussion has made it clear Guld is a lesser pilot (still awesome tho) than Isamu as he wasn't able to execute the risks as Isamu can.

But, as for the better Valk between the 19 and 21, that's personal opinion.

Edited October 17, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Vic Mancini]

Considering that Kawamori is a very big aviation buff, and part of the story is based off of the YF-22 vs YF-23 project, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it's as David Hingtgen wrote. When he put it like that it made sense.

it may make sense if it was isolated, but as part of the montage, it's clearly designed to show that the yf-19 team was pulling ahead of the yf-21. Every shot in that montage showed isamu doing everything first and doing it better/ in a more extreme way. Frankly, the simplest explanation is the one to go with when watching visual media and the simplest explanation is that isamu was kicking guld's butt.

^

^

That pretty much sums it up.

Sorry, Sumdumgai, I just don't believe that the director of the anime would throw in such an esoteric reference at a time like that. It would be totally misleading to 99% of it's viewing audience.

It's one thing to throw in esoteric references that only aficionados are going to spot, and regular viewers are going to skim over obliviously, no worse for wear. But it's another thing entirely to throw in a reference that only aficionados are going to understand and that regular viewers are going to misinterpret for something completely inaccurate during a fairly meaningful montage.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Zinjo]

Another point, who got to fly the "flying bicycle" (sorry i had to use that hahha) .. Isamu did while Guld an Myung watched.

Hikaru flew a bicycle....

[Mr March]

That pretty much sums it up.

Actually, I don't think you nor David Hingtgen nor eugimon can claim to have totally accurate theories; at least not according to canon.

We've had this discussion on MW before (as DavidH has mentioned) and I believe I brought up the point that regardless of what the bars actually meant, the scene featuring the competition bar graph was meant to be a simple throwaway montage designed to visually to denote the passage of time and show that the YF-19 was doing better in whatever scale the graph meant. That's all that could be determined analyzing the anime on it's own without futher explanation from either Watanabe or Kawamori. I wouldn't hold my breath for any such discussion of minutiae from either of them

However, that by no means invalidates a "time to test" interpretation. The answer to the question of the graph's meaning may be more complex, especially considering Kawamori himself is an engineer and aviation buff. It also means the graph could be interpreted as a straight score board because it's the most obvious answer. But the most obvious answer isn't the same thing as an official answer. The ultimate meaning of the graph is something left to fan debate, but DavidH's interpretation is just as valid as your own.

[eugimon]

Actually, I don't think you nor David Hingtgen nor eugimon can claim to have totally accurate theories; at least not according to canon.

We've had this discussion on MW before (as DavidH has mentioned) and I believe I brought up the point that regardless of what the bars actually meant, the scene featuring the competition bar graph was meant to be a simple throwaway montage designed to visually to denote the passage of time and show that the YF-19 was doing better in whatever scale the graph meant. That's all that could be determined analyzing the anime on it's own without futher explanation from either Watanabe or Kawamori. I wouldn't hold my breath for any such discussion of minutiae from either of them

However, that by no means invalidates a "time to test" interpretation. The answer to the question of the graph's meaning may be more complex, especially considering Kawamori himself is an engineer and aviation buff. It also means the graph could be interpreted as a straight score board because it's the most obvious answer. But the most obvious answer isn't the same thing as an official answer. The ultimate meaning of the graph is something left to fan debate, but DavidH's interpretation is just as valid as your own.

well, this is the problem you get when you start trying to interpret scenes outside of context. The whole montage, right up to the ending with the yf-19 blowing the holy hell out of the monster was to show the yf-19 kicking butt. That's the short and simple of it. Having an interpretation that contradicts what is obviously and repeatedly shown on screen is certainly not a valid one.

Macross Plus may have been vague on somethings, but from the opening sequence, Isamu is shown to be an ace pilot, reckless and daring. Every other scene in the show reinforces this. Guld is shown doing some amazing things and then immediately we are shown isamu doing the same thing in a more extreme or more handicapped way. For instance, guld dodges a myriad missiles, wow guld is great! But then isamu does the same thing, in an older fighter with two big giant rockets strapped to it. The obvious inference is that isamu is not just equal to guld but better.

The graph just visually reinforces what the rest of the show was craming down our throats.

[Mr March]

Actually, that only makes any argument more difficult to prove as opposed to less. It opens up a whole can of worms and calls into question the interpretation of each individual scene in the Macross Plus anime as well as interpretation of how all those individual scenes work for or against any one particular theory, or if the scenes actually imply anything toward either theory. Good luck with that one