How do you feel about Basara?

[ComicKaze]

Wait a minute here, not only is Basara like John Lennon, but Sivil sings a lot like Yokko Ono!

Except that John Lennon - to the best of my knowledge - didn't go riding into the middle of a raging battlefield in a war and try to sing his songs, recklessly getting other soldiers killed.

[VFTF1]

Except that John Lennon - to the best of my knowledge - didn't go riding into the middle of a raging battlefield in a war and try to sing his songs, recklessly getting other soldiers killed.

I seriously doubt whether you can accuse Basara - even indirectly as in this quote - of "recklessly getting other soldiers killed" through his actions.

If anything - it is the act of war that gets soldiers recklessly killed and Basara was trying to save those soldiers by stopping the war with his music.

And one last note: I'm happy this thread is not dying

Power to the Music!

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Except that John Lennon - to the best of my knowledge - didn't go riding into the middle of a raging battlefield in a war and try to sing his songs, recklessly getting other soldiers killed.

Whoa! I don't remember that! When did Basara get someone killed...?

[Sergorn]

Whoa! I don't remember that! When did Basara get someone killed...?

Never. If anything he offered an extra target to the Varauta

-Sergorn

[VFTF1]

Well - I'm going to come to the defense of Comickaze here...

I think his point wasn't so much that someone was killed on-screen because of Basara - but rather that he assumed that Basara's distraction probably threw a few pilots off their gaurd and they were subsequently killed.

I don't agree with the reasoning, and obviously it was never prominently shown on screen - but I think you can still make the argument...

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Well - I'm going to come to the defense of Comickaze here...

I think his point wasn't so much that someone was killed on-screen because of Basara - but rather that he assumed that Basara's distraction probably threw a few pilots off their gaurd and they were subsequently killed.

I don't agree with the reasoning, and obviously it was never prominently shown on screen - but I think you can still make the argument...

VFTF1

By that logic, you could also make the argument that Exsedol was a drag queen...sure, it was never shown, but still...

[Keith]

Besides which, if anyone U.N. Pilots were letting themselves get distracted by Basara, that's due to lack of discepline, not anything Basara may have been doing.

[Alex]

Hang on. If i'm a soldier and Gene Simmons turns up on the field.......it's MY fault if i'm distracted and die!? I'm positive that basic army training doesn't cover that one. "Welcome to your first day cadets. First class is 'Out of Context Obstacles'!"

[VFTF1]

Hmm...

I disagree with you both Kieth and Gub - isn't one of the mandates - at least in theory - of the UN Spacey pilots to protect innocents against the enemy?

Basara - in their eyes - was a crazy civilian pilot plodding around a lethal environment - some of them might have therefore been inclined to "help" or "rescue" him.

Naturally - this would work only the first or second time around - eventually the UN Spacey pilots had to be expecting Basara to come out - but initially they would have treated him as someone to protect.

And if that's the case - then it could be argued that Basara threw them off their battle formation and made their jobs more difficult.

Naturally - I disagree with this argument (that is, I do not think Basara was a "disturbance" getting people killed) I just think it's a legitamite argument to raise.

As for Exedol the Drag Queen -- well - this raises an interesting question. To what extent can suggestive on-screen material be used as a valid basis for the inference of off-screen material?

The only legitamite on-screen basis of Exodol dressing up in drago off screen are the following:

1) Exodol is shown mimmicking feminine movements when singing "My Boyfriend is a Pilot"

2) Blue Wing hypothesized that human female swim suits might be "battle armor."

On the basis of these two events in SDF M, I can logically infer that Exedol, being an inquisitive type and an archivist with a thirst for knowledge, and also under the mandate of his mission which was to learn about the humans - might have either had a replica of a female swim suit made, or tried one on as a myclone.

Ergo - it is poossible that Exedol did actually dress up like a woman - and there is legitamite basis for such a thing potentially having occured in SDF M. If a fanfic were written about it - it would not be far fetched (but would most likely be very short).

Logical inference from on-screen events is, I think, not arbitrary; although certainly it is never precise. But this is different from saying that Syvil and Mylene were secret lovers, or that Max and Exodol liked to play squash during off-hours - since neither of these two hypotheseses have ANY basis (as far as I can tell) in what we see on screen.

VFTF1

[Radd]

Hang on. If i'm a soldier and Gene Simmons turns up on the field.......it's MY fault if i'm distracted and die!? I'm positive that basic army training doesn't cover that one. "Welcome to your first day cadets. First class is 'Out of Context Obstacles'!"

But what if it's Richard Simmons?

[VFTF1]

But what if it's Richard Simmons?

Am I mistaken in thinking that Richard Simmons is the diet/health guy with the funny hair?

I think Basara is technically equally as annoying as Richard Simmons - presuming of course that Richard Simmons is right about how to stay healthy.

Nothing more annoying than being nagged by someone who is actually RIGHT.

VFTF1

[ComicKaze]

When I watched the series, I vividly recall Basara flying into the heart of a battle and going: "listen to my song!" and then the other pilots and the flight controller were going nuts: "who is that? get him out of there!" and chaos ensued. Then it was edited in such a way that during the course of the battle, some of the pilots did die in big explosions. I merely put two and two together and decided he was wrecklessly endangering the actual military pilots who were only doing their duty. There are a lot of issues involved. Friendly pilots get confused at the strange color scheme that looks more like an enemy than an allied Valkyrie. They have to worry about friendly fire. Their natural instinct is to clear the civilian out of the battle. He gets in the way of their maneuvers and formations. He tries to stop people from fighting (mostly by singing but also being in the middle of the battlefield to draw fire), he potentially could block friendly ships or prevent them from defending themselves.

He has no business doing such a thing. If he wants to sing, go fly a few thousand kilometers above or below the main area of battle and broadcast his song (space is 3D afterall, radio transmissions move at the speed of light afterall). There's no reason to be right inside the middle of it other than poor writing and dramatic effect. It doesn't matter if "they get used" to seeing him out there. It's wreckless endangerment and he should have been thrown in the brig for the duration of the journey. If the first few times he manages to get a few of his own pilots killed who were either distracted or trying to defend or avoid him, that's enough to say he should be court-martialed or tried (since he's a civillian) and put in the Macross penal colony or a put before a firing squad.

It's tantamount to you (as a soldier) being in a raging firefight in a middle eastern city with an enemy in your sights who is about to shoot your buddy when suddenly someone in red leather with yellow lightning bolts on his costume runs into the middle with an electric guitar and backpack amp and starts singing. It blocks your shot, your buddy gets killed, and then you get distracted and get shot yourself.

Edited May 1, 2008 by ComicKaze

[Gubaba]

The operators on the brdige never showed anything more than mild shock...and it was clear from episode one that Max knew who Basara was. So if Basara was really endangering pilots, wouldn't Max have done something about it, like confiscate the Fire Valkyrie? Or was he just being negligent...?

[Dangard Ace]

I vote negligent. IIRC Basara was his pet project.

Also isn't there something about keeping the comlinks clear for clear communications?

Flight Leader: "CF 21 go take out that *squawk!*"

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

CF 21: "WTF?! Say again lead, take out ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

or

Flight Leader: "CF 16 you've got incoming at your *squawk!* "

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

CF 16: "WTF?! Incoming whe.ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

or

Flight Leader: "TF Squadron,new targets. Take out WTF?! "

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

Flight Leader: "Civilian craft! This is a military ope..AAARRRGGGHH!!!" Boom

CF 16: "Captains down! Captain down! I STARSCREAM AM NOW YOUR LEADE.ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

CF 13, 14, 15: "WTF! WTF! WTF! We're all going to die! IEEEEEE!!!!" Boom. Boom. Boom.

[RichterX]

I would say Basara was annoying due to, he shot the pods to everyone, them being friendly or enemies, he would constantly get in the line of fire of UN Spacy fighters, specifically Gamlin in the beginning of the series.

[Max Jenius]

Even though I like Gamlin better, Basara was ok. Basara also fit in w/ the theme, albeit in a cheesy way.

[Macross007]

I vote negligent. IIRC Basara was his pet project.

Also isn't there something about keeping the comlinks clear for clear communications?

Flight Leader: "CF 21 go take out that *squawk!*"

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

CF 21: "WTF?! Say again lead, take out ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

or

Flight Leader: "CF 16 you've got incoming at your *squawk!* "

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

CF 16: "WTF?! Incoming whe.ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

or

Flight Leader: "TF Squadron,new targets. Take out WTF?! "

Basara: "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!"

Flight Leader: "Civilian craft! This is a military ope..AAARRRGGGHH!!!" Boom

CF 16: "Captains down! Captain down! I STARSCREAM AM NOW YOUR LEADE.ARRRGGGH!!" Boom.

CF 13, 14, 15: "WTF! WTF! WTF! We're all going to die! IEEEEEE!!!!" Boom. Boom. Boom.

Dying after listening to Basara's "LISTEN TO MY SONG !!!" is way more peaceful than "I GET A F*CKER ON MY TAIL !!!" and then boom.

[VFTF1]

Well - now I'll disagree with Comickaze - while I do think he brings up a valid point - here is why I ultimately do not agree:

1. War by definition is wreckless endangerment.

The notion that war is somehow this orderly procession where everything goes a-ok as long as you stay in formation, follow orders and keep focused is, I think, simply not true. War is chaotic, and more often than not, it is following your instinct for self preservation, mixed with luck, that keeps you alive - forget about "winning" for the moment. Numerous factors "interfere" with the best laid plans - particularly if combat is taking place in a the midst of a civilian conglomeration rather than in an open field. Everything - including your friend - are potential distractions or disturbances that can get you killed. In fact - the very act of war - which is the focused use of violence against others - can and most often does get you killed.

2. Non-Violent protest as a means of opposition to the act of war

Throoughout history, the act of war has been opposed most often by the act of war. Attackers would face defenders who could and often would counter-attack - and so it went. Yet this process, even when in self-defense (and therefore justified), would often lead to more war, and what started as a justified self-defense would slowly transform itself into total and unrelenting warfare. Warfare is a harm - even for the innocent party who is merely defending itself. I speak - of course - of conventional warfare for now. In the face of the massive losses inflicted on all sides by conventional warfare - two means of dealing with conventional warfare have emerged over time: 1) asymetrical warfare (known also a guerrila warfare or "terrorism") and non-violent protest. The first type of warfare is rooted in the idea of attrition - it is impossible to defeat an enemy that runs every time you shoot, that never stands for battle, that never places all of its' "troops" in one spot for some defining confrontation, that in fact doesn't have troops but rather has a loosely knit network of independently organized militias. Such an enemy is capable of wearing down conventional forces and ultimately breaking them. There is no possible way to defeat such an enemy save potentially rounding up and exterminating millions of people - which would likely only aggravate the problem. However, from the point of view of the guerrilas - while they are "undefeatable" - they also never really WIN. This is because ultimately attrition is not victory - conventional forces can be worn down; but guerrilas will never actually defeat conventional forces; drive them out, route them or anything of this sort. The best they can hope for is victory through wearing down and discouraging the conventional forces. This process is drawn out - often lasting far longer than a conventional, symetrical war - and the fact that it is drawn out means that the civilian population must suffer through years of low-yield warfare rather than living a nominally productive life. This is therefore harmful to the very causese the guerrila supposedly fights for - and we are back to "square one:" namely - war is not good for anyone.

Yet the need to resist violence - for self-defense - still remains. Enter non-violent resistance - aka Nekki Basara.

It is silly to say that the appearance of Nekki Basara in the middle of combat is a "danger" - COMBAT is the danger, and Basara is trying to END the combat by distracting everyone from their passions of anger and hate and making them listen to music about love and beauty.

Non-violent resistance is always a "distraction" - that is the point. To say that the peace activist who lunges into the middle of a fight with a guitar is somehow "at fault" for th deaths of soldiers who have all come into battle with guns and rockets is as ridiculous as saying that when there is a shoot out with fatalities - we ought to blame the woman who screamed "no! please don't!" to try to stop her boyfriend from pulling out his gun.

The activist who say "no! don't!" is trying to save lives - and is doing so not through violent intimidation (aka "no don't or else I'll blow your head off") but by an appeal to higher emotions and thoughts that every sentient being shares equally - but that all of us have forgotten because of numerous conventional differences (religion, race, economic status etc) that have been used as excuses by propaganda to manipulate us into states of warfare.

Macross 7 reflects this - although not so subtlely. The Protodevilin use mind control on their minions. This is reflective of real life where governments use propaganda to control the minds of their populations and generate war fever. Granted, the art of mind control is not so simple in real life as it is in M7 - but it's there.

The Macross 7 fleet, on the other hand, is, like most free societies, divided into camps which espouse different opinions. The existence of different opinions is a testimony to the free nature of the M7 society. One camp ardently wishes that people like Bassara would go away, that everyone join the military, and that Reaction Weapons be used more often. This camp unwittingly become more similar to the enemy that it wishes to defeat: and this is reflective of the "throw him in the brig" mentality - aka dealing with opposing views by locking them up.

The other camp believes that since it is possible to have two passions: the passion for unthinking war and the passion for love and happiness - then most likely the enemy also has the capacity for the latter and is under the influence of the former to the same extent as "our side" is when going into combat.

Therefore, the only way to save everyone from slaughtering one another is to remind them of love and happiness through music - this is a form of non-violent protest. This is what Basara is engaged in - and it does not "endanger" lives - it is an attempt to stop the killing of warfare and to save lives.

VFTF1

[Roy Focker]

Hmm so Basara would vote for Obama?

[VFTF1]

Hmm so Basara would vote for Obama?

Somehow, I think Basara wouldn't vote at all. He's too much of an iconoclast and is probably weary of "the system" in all of its' manifestations - but I could be wrong. In any event - he DEFINITELY does not espoouse any political party or political candidate in his rock concerts, nor does he ever think about let alone do anything to influence people democratically. He doesn't say "VOTE FOR MY SONG!" but rather "LISTEN TO MY SONG!"

I think therefore that he is a non-violent extremist who doesn't believe in politics or war but just in the power of music.

VFTF1

[alindasue]

Hmm so Basara would vote for Obama?

Basara's not really into politics, but I think if he were to vote at all, he'd more likely vote for Kucinich based on his anti-war stance and calls for a multilateral nuclear disarmament. During the show, Basara openly showed his disdain when they resorted to the use of such weapons to try and solve a problem.

That disdain was also shown towards the whole military mindset. He really hated the fact that the military leaders didn't understand what he was trying to do and instead saw his music only as a "weapon" against the enemy, instead of the weapon against war that it was intended to be.

I notice in these threads that we sometimes get dangerously close to the forums rules against political debate. I believe that's because, more than any of the other Macross series, Macross 7 itself is a political statement on the part of the creators.

peace

[Keith]

Again, if all it takes to distract a soldier is someone singing on the battlefield, then they were just born to be cannon fodder.

In general, Basara's presence would serve to motivate the U.N. Pilots there, he obviousl wasn't against them, nor was he just shooting out speaker pods willy nilly, his targets were the enemy, and he had no intent to go after U.N. pilots. I also seem to recall something about U.S. soldiers being allowed to bring their own rock music with them to motivate them durring combat during this recent "military action."

[VFTF1]

See - and this is the perfect reason for staying off of explicitly political subjects - because we tend to put our partisan biases in the place of our fictional heroes thinking and actions...

For instance if you REALLY pressed me - I would say that Bassara would NOT vote for Obama or Kichinic but rather for Ron Paul

But ultimately I think making such analogies is pushing it - because politicians; even principled ones like Kuchinic and Paul (I'm excluding Obama because the former politicians have a long record of principled stances - agree or disagree - while Obama is too new to judge in that vein) - craft their message to fit the times and circumstances that they are dealing with. Even if their ideals are universal; the practical application of those ideals has very specific form and is presented in specific rhetoric.

To take just one example: Both Kuchinik and Paul are for dismantling the warfare state and ending the "military-industrial complex" ---

But in the Macross universe - given the presumptions about reality - would anyone SERIOUSLY consider campaigning on the idea of dismantling UN Spacey? Bad and corrupt as UN Spacey are, incompetent as they are - they developed the variable fighter without which Earth would have been just another planet for the Zendradi to overrun and crush. They developed a defense system, refited the SDF-1 - in short, however imperfectly - they prepared for the coming of the aliens.

In Macross 7 it is obvious that, in contradistinction to the original SDF-1, there is now a division of power between the civilian and military government (on the SDF-1 there was a Mayor of Macross City, but it didn't seem like he had any real power). Macross 7 has an independent civilian Mayor...although she just happens to be the Military commander's ex-wife....still... technically there is an attempt being made to have an independent civilian government.

Nevertheless, even with this attempt - we in "real life" tend to consider it a sign of civilization when the military is under civilian control; and not autonomous of it. So even in this respect Macross 7 "fails" the test. Also, food rationing and the like - which occured profusely on the SDF-1 - is completely bad economics and there seems to be a realization of this from M7 onward (no more rationing).

Something interesting that happens in Macross Frontier is the introduction of private military contractors who are more efficient - supposedly due to the fact that market forces compose the basis of their decision making process. But even here there is a bit of a flaw - and I wonder whether the show will be sophisticated enough to expose it - namely there is not much of a "market" for military contractors when NUNS is the only entity allowed to CONTRACT the military contractors and the only entity allowed to print the money with which to pay them.

Unless, of course, we understand the "private fleets" which are mentioned at the beginning of the show to actually be huge, Macross class instalations potentially capable of competing with NUNS for scarce resources...

In any case - the point stands that in the Macross universe the military has a clear role to play in self-defense. Alien attacks are quite frequent and thus far UN Spacey has faced only conventional "4G" warfare...

So I don't think a candidate like Kuchinic or Paul would be able to make a principled stance for - for instance - treatises limiting Variable fighter research (anti-proliferation), or generally dismantling the military-industrial complex...

Then again - personally - I think that whatever appeal these candidates have is not so much a result of people actually WANTING to disarm - but rather people being tired of using their arms in a pointless and fruitless venture that simply wastes those arms.

And a final note: as has been reported here before - Remember that Bassara was a GOVERNMENT PROJECT. That is, Keyboard man and Max developed the VF-19 for Basara in an attempt to test the theory that music could be used as a non-lethal weapon.

Sure - ultimately it was Basara's independent heart and undisciplined passion which made this possible (drill-sergent-inspired-music apparently doesn't generate spiritia) - but without the military - it wouldn't have worked.

Heck - without the military - Basara wouldn't HAVE a VF-19 to fly

so - not so clean cut as to who Basara would vote for. And definitely not so obvious that the platforms of our particular favorites would even resonate in the M7 universe.

VFTF1

[aerocombatpilot]

Although I have seen the entire Macross 7 series, including Macross 7 the movie, Macross 7 encore, and Macross dynamite 7, I have not seen it in english, so I'm only getting half of the story which is probably clouding my judgement when I say that I do not like Basara. I don't hate him, but I do not like like him "strongly"!

P.S. Could somebody tell me if Basara shooting speakers into the enemy planes had some kind of effect on the pilots?

I ask this because it seemed like they continued to fight dispite of Basara's singing.

[Gubaba]

Although I have seen the entire Macross 7 series, including Macross 7 the movie, Macross 7 encore, and Macross dynamite 7, I have not seen it in english, so I'm only getting half of the story which is probably clouding my judgement when I say that I do not like Basara. I don't hate him, but I do not like like him "strongly"!

P.S. Could somebody tell me if Basara shooting speakers into the enemy planes had some kind of effect on the pilots?

I ask this because it seemed like they continued to fight dispite of Basara's singing.

No, it doesn't do anything until he gets the sound booster, which is strong enough to break the mind control.

(As for disliking Basara...watching him with subtitles might just make you dislike him even more. He can get awfully repetitive at times...)

[VFTF1]

Yessss this thread will never die

I also notice that Bassara just needs two more votes to come out with a positive result!

As to the speakers - it's been a while since I've seen M7 in chronological order - so I could be wrong - but I think Basara's music did effect Giggili...er...you know - the fellow who falls in love with Sivil later - pretty early on. In any evet, he seems to have been the most "free minded" of the Protodevilin - even though he got annoyed with Bassara; it was clear that he was fighting the power of Bassara's love music rather than just hating on him...a struggle within the soul kind of thing... or did that happen later too?

Come on Bassara lovers! We're...almost...there!

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Come on Bassara lovers! We're...almost...there!

Maybe we should start a Basara vs. Sheryl thread and see who comes out on top...

[VFTF1]

Maybe we should start a Basara vs. Sheryl thread and see who comes out on top...

Bassara is Sheryl's dad, remember? - So - even if Sheryl wins, then that just means Bassara's children rule

In any event - Basara is only one vote from being liked!! Come on! Power to the rainbow! One more vote!

Of course, it's kind of like a European election though...even though Basara might "win" - if you count up the votes for "hate," "annoyed" and "don't care" then Bassara actually loses... but...

If major countries are run by this system then it can clearly work for Basara as well! Come on! We need your vote! Stand up for love!

VFTF1

[Sulendil Ang]

Your dream come true, VFTF1. I vote for the positive one.

Now you own me one.

[VFTF1]

Ahhh! I'm so happy!!! Sulendil Ang has my life long gratitude! Basara is the winner! Look! Macross world thinks Basara rules!

Basara Rules! [ 48 ] ** [30.38%]

Basara is annoying [ 47 ] ** [29.75%]

I friggin HATE Basara! [ 41 ] ** [25.95%]

Don't care either way [ 22 ] ** [13.92%]

Quick!! Pull a Zimbabwe and close the poll!!

VFTF1

[d3v]

Hmm so Basara would vote for Obama?

No, he'd vote Jenius!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I notice in these threads that we sometimes get dangerously close to the forums rules against political debate. I believe that's because, more than any of the other Macross series, Macross 7 itself is a political statement on the part of the creators.

Good point. I agree with the general "war is bad! war is bad! war is bad!" message in a lot of japanese anime and sympathise with basara's dream of bringing people together using the music. But I think shows like astro boy just did it much better than macross 7 ever did.

Astro Boy showed how an innocent little robot that wasn't immediately tolerated by humans could slowly learn from human behaviour and become like one of them and eventually surpass the behavior of the humans by making wise choices and bringing balance. He didn't have to preach, he acts. He just rescues people from danger which is far more interesting than singing a song and having monsters slowly become hypnotised by the songs so that they would understand because magic seemed to come out of the lyrics which converted them to be good guys again.

It's just not interesting storytelling. It's not just basara. It's the formula of the show: each week basara will sing a song and the monsters will run away. Now I know you guys mention that this was aimed at a younger audience, and that's fine, but I'm just saying it's possible to have a anti-war show but have action and adult themes like astroboy where the person is actually getting off their ass and doing something interesting, feeling emotions, falling in love with someone, breaking up, feeling vulnerable and out of control, and learning from life mistakes and getting more experienced and wise throughout the show. It shows us the audience, that you have given the character a life beyond the cartoon world that you created and which real people can relate to. Ie they are 3d dimensional 'people' not mere cartoon characters from a cartoon like bugs bunny. It's the same reason why I couldn't really sympathise with Stick (who you could say was very pro-war) in Mospeada. He was just so single-minded and 'flat' and the end of the story he seems like an ok guy who has a great sense of duty, but so does a robot that never sleeps. Nothing changes. The invit were sent off, and it's like "mission accomplished". That's it? Now beyond the fighting he gets himself into, does it make him interesting to watch?

So similarly I have that issue with basara where he just doesn't change much or evolve, and it's like he accomplishes a mission, but I'm like why do I care? I like your beliefs but I don't know "the real you". The one that has a life outside the cartoon world you live in. If given a choice, would you rather see someone fight to save a life, almost die doing it, or listen to a music video and some monster running away every single episode? For me macross plus gave us the action we like with the 3d character depth the older audience goes for. That was just the right balance I like. Although the characters were not interesting or likable to some people (1 is a jerk, 1 is a depressed wannabe loser, 1 is mentally unstable) they felt like real people not "saturday morning cartoon" people. SDF:M also had more "realistic" people.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Now on the topic of max: this has already been addressed by others. He was put there to make the world seem more realistic. That no matter how good hikaru thinks he is (and he has lots of skill gained from the flying circus) there is always someone else smarter, better looking, luckier and happier than yourself and who you kinda hate/admire/fear/jealous of.

An example of this is in the Simpsons where Homer is always pissed that Ned Flanders always seems to have more luck than him. It's a joke we can laugh along to and we can relate to this.

Spiderman: when peter parker whines about how his life as a masked super hero means he has less time to be with his girlfriend, dating, career, .....and then along comes the Symbiote suit which makes him stronger, more confident, more powerful, faster, and sexier than he was when he didn't have it. Is this necesarily making parker a more interesting character?

If the show was all about spiderman with the alien costume and he never had a hard time, would you have a story to tell? No. It would be boring. Just like if Max had been the focus of SDF:M.

People can't relate to it. It's not realistic. (war is not won by a single being) And you spoil the sense of danger that is in more realistic shows that adults like to see. eg Roy actually dying as opposed to Basara's fake death. Guld having to give up his life to kill the ghost in macross plus. Hikaru growing up and becoming a man and forgetting about dating or getting the young girl he original planned to have in order to live a more (what appeared to be) practical lifestyle by staying in the military. (and not because he likes flying; which would be a selfish reason, but because he feels its his calling to "protect people" other than the princess who needs rescuing from danger in the romantic movies. So it end up being less about "me" and "what I want" and more like a "I'm doing this because now with all my dead friends and an almost-extinct race it's a responsibility now and people need my skills". Much different from when he first began in episode 1 where he just mopes about and all he had to worry about was getting minmay to like him. ....So all this drama, all the change, it feels like you experienced an event in that person's life.

So in summary, yeah max is like a "humble basara", but that's not why we like him and hate basara. It's just that him not being the central focus of the story is a huge reason why it doesn't affect SDF:M and spoil the realism.

Like Ned Flanders in the Simpsons, or the Alien costume in Spiderman, we are not watching it for them. They are background figures. The spotlight is always on the messed-up, imperfect people who are forced to struggle through the challenges, and due to it being 'harder' for them, due to being average joes, (who are not perfect, who do not have the best looking face, who do not know everything) it's just easier to relate to them. Superman will never be as interesting to watch as spiderman. Because nobody relates to a guy who can just do everything without effort and where there is no danger. Basara in macross 7 appeared too godlike in situations where a normal person should be frightened to death. If Exedor poos his pants at the sight of the protodevlin monsters, and a young kid doesn't react in fear, don't you think that is unrealistic at all? This would be like if a dinosaur came into your backyard and eat your dog? You telling me you wouldn't be a little bit scared? But because it's all a cartoony world, we just have to accept that the main character is not the least bit affected at all by these super powerful space monster and just continues on as usual singing a song as if nothing changed?.

Now compare that to Dyson: his confidence is due to his love of speed,flying, the thrill of being in some sort of zone. It's his addiction to that which makes him behave like an apeface so that he doesn't get promoted and so he can stay in a cockpit flying planes rather than at a desk. That confidence (from an addiction to flying) sounds more realistic to me. At least Dyson gets shot at, almost dies, has to fight a rival pilot (just like max had to fight milia who is almost his match) and there is a sense of danger in watching them try to kill each other. It's an interesting story, allows for interesting fights, and due to the characters not being perfect, there is dramas they must go through which has a permanent effect on later events. (ie trust in AI drones is killed after the pilots show they have more common sense than robots despite bold and irresponsible behavior that endangers themselves and the planes. If they didn't take risks and weren't crazy and willing to bet their life, ghost drones would have taken over the human race led by an AI. So there was a purpose for watching these A-holes and even if you didn;t like them as characters, they spoke through actions.)

If macross 7 wanted to be liked for the story it would need to go back to the realistic character formula, and ditch the monster of the week formula, speed up the pace, increase the battle scenes so that they appear more interesting, have basara not be the central focus, and make the characters he interacts with more serious, and the monsters more frightening and less cartoony. (think vampire hunter D type vampires with intelligence, emotion, reasoning, charisma whatever.. rather than sailor moon villains.) Generally make it less a vehicle to sell merchandise (cds, toys, dvds) and more a classic show that will appeal to more than just the genre fans (robot show nerd) or fans of anything-macross. ("it's got valks so I have to see it") You can't just rely on the macross name only. What people want is a soap, (normal people, not superheroes) mixed with a science fiction war story(realism in battles and detailed combat), and action. (mecha porn - when the ace pilot comes in it's done in a style that is very energetic, fast, and dramatic that is what makes them interesting compared to the grunts..yet they are not invincible and still rely on the military for support. SDF:M had the "Qrau vs VF-1" with max vs milia. "VF-1 vs Glaug" with Kamjin vs Hikaru. Zero had "VF-0 vs SV-51" with Roy and his teacher. These were highlights of the war, as two equally-matched pilots engaged in combat with each other personally one-on-one, with equal technology, and without outside interference, to see who was "da man" and which side was right. )

Edited May 26, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gubaba]

1/1 LowViz Lurker, you said a mouthful. I agree with a lot of what you say, but I see what the 7 creators were trying to do with Basara (whether or not they were successful is up to the viewer), that is, have a character whose actions are initially inexplicable, and then slowly reveal the rationale behind them. Which, if done well, can be just as interesting as a character who grows and changes in great leaps (I would also argue that Basara DOES change over the course of the series...but he becomes "more Basara-y," so I understand if people don't see it).

I also think it's interesting that Basara fails a lot as well...he didn't move the mountain when he was a child, his singing had no effect on the brainwashed Varauta soldiers (until, that is, it was coupled with the sound booster), and he couldn't break up the gun fight between the police and the poachers in episode 1 of Dynamite 7. He succeeds in the big things, but only because of the help he gets from others. I've said it before, I'll say it again: without Ray looking out for him, the guy's hopeless. I wonder if he could even feed himself.

Nor is Basara particularly likeable, which I think was a conscious choice on the part of the creators. He can be rude, petty, and thoughless; his ideals are a lot loftier than he is.

Ultimately, though, I think it comes down to whether or not you think those ideals are valid (but not always...I have a friend who's an avowed pacifist, but he hated Basara, and thought he should have started the series as a soldier, and slowly learned that music was the better way to go. I dunno...maybe it would've made the series better, maybe not).

And I just have to say...Max = Ned Flanders? PURE BRILLIANCE! Now I'm just waiting for someone to make an avatar of Flanders with blue hair...

[VFTF1]

Max = Ned Flanders? PURE BRILLIANCE!

Yeah, and Milia is Mrs. Flander on Crack - instead of "think of the children!" it's "toss the children!"

VFTF1