How do you feel about Basara?

[Ork_dreadnought]

Erm, no, you missed the point entirely. Max was added to the supporting cast as part of an attempt to show there was more to events then what happened to Hikaru. He is only perfect in that he was better pilot than Hikaru, there's no indication he was better at anything else (see his difficulties with Milia). He was also something of a joke character, he ambushed a zentradi in a toilet and his whole relationship with Milia was hilarious. While you could say Max was suspicously fortunate, and even two-dimensional if you were mean, he isn't the sole point of the show and doesn't get that much screentime. The situation for Basara is VERY different, he had far more screentime as he was the focus of the show. He is played completed strait and is without flaw in basically everything he does. That's why I consider him plot sheilded, and is also why he effectively has no character development. The fact that Max has minimal development is due to the fact he isn't the lead character, and is absent from a large number of episodes. Even then, the fact he got married puts him above Basara.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Sergorn]

IMO - Basara rules. Most of the complain against him can be valid. Sure he can get annoying and all. And yeah he's kind of that immuable character that doesn't change himself but makes the other characer evolve around.

But what makes Basara such a great character IMO - is that you know basically...he makes you believe in miracle. That is you trully believe in yourself, that if you pull your will to it - there's no limit to what you can do. That final episode, when you see basara, singing at that mountain, singing at that galaxy - yeah you just WANT to believe that anything is possible.

And that's part of what makes Macross 7 such a great series to me - because the underlying philosophy is just awesome, and highly positive ; and put in context in a genre that more rhymed with angts, violence, brutality, depressive and/or conflicted heroes and what else... for all its sillyness all we have here is a series with a very optimistic message and heroes that just want makes to believe that everything is possible ! Yeah Macross Plus and Escaflowne that Kawamori did at the same time (How did he managed that anyway ? :-P) shared the same thematic, but Macross 7 and Basara juste delivered in a unique way that went straight to your heart.

(And I know I'll just sound crazy - but in the times when I'm down... I never found a better way to gets my Spirit(ia ? ) back up than listing to Basara's music)

-Sergorn

[VFTF1]

Sergorn rules! I agree - especially with the last sentence: Basara's music - and the power of Music in General really do have an effect and raise Spiritia levels when they're down!

As for Max - well Ork - I grant you that as with anything in fiction, it's all a matter of interpretation. I personally think that just as Max was a better pilot than Hikaru, so too Max had a far easier time of it with Milia. First of all; he had one girl he was in love with (Hikaru has trouble with getting his feelings sorted out), second of all, he beat her in mecha combat thereby establishing dominance over her (in her eyes, in accordance with her hierarchy of values), then he beat her in the arcade, and finally in the knife fight - and instead of killing her he kissed her and married her pretty much the next day.

I just don't see where you can honestly find "problems with Milia" in this account. If you mean that he had trouble getting a decent cup of coffee; well - I think that later, in Romanesque, when Milia tosses her baby and Max is cool as can be about it, we see that Max has learned much about his Zendradi wife and adapted very well to her particular traits.

Meanwhile, in that very same episode, Hikaru STILL can't figure out whether he loves Misa or not... so...

As for Max being a side character - well - I guess I can concede the point - that maybe if Max was the focus of the show, then more of his imperfections and development as a character would come out - ok - yeah - I can agree - but in Macross 7 Max is also present (and in Macross 7, I'll grant you he has real trouble with Milia) and in Macross 7 IMO he does get development because he's in a situation where he can't be perfect Max.

As Captain, he makes decisions which are no-win decisions. People (his people) always get killed, and for most of the series he's on defence. Basara - in this respect - I guess does get off the hook. Basara is not responsible for day-to-day decisions; he is not responsible for decisions that will impact whether people die or live. He acts as though he is above politics; non-political - he acts like a demigod.

I grant you this - and maybe that is what is grating about Basara, because everyone in their own way is trying to do something to help; the military included. And for instance the military never says "we're in a war with aliens! Draft all the civilians and cease all civilian life and transfer all resources towards war!" The same goes for other people/branches. No one believes they have a monopoly on truth.

Basara, however, seems to believe the his music is the truth; that it is the only thing that will stop the fighting. His is an all-or-nothing mentality; a totalitarian mentality - I'll grant you. And so naturally he puts people off; because - well - what if he's wrong?

But sometimes totalitarian arguments are worth examining - and worth presenting in totalitarian form - that is in the extreme. If living, thinking beings are truly capable of love and happiness and love and happiness is a better and more fitting state than hatred - then why not move them towards love and happiness? And can hatred more them to hatred? Can bombs make them put down their bombs and live normal happy lives? Or maybe we need the power of music and the feelings of love and friendship to shine strongly at them? Maybe only music and love can fight hatred and bombs?

Basara believes in this so deeply; it's like a religion. Religious figures - at least the ones who really believe what they preach - are always extremists. This is because religion is ultimately about belief - there is only so far that reason can go - which is why "reasonable people" are usually not extremists because reason tells them that there are limits to how much of truth can be grasped. But belief is something in your heart - and either you believe in Basara and think he's da best or you think he's annoying, wacko and generally a fruitloop.

So I'm not surprised by the anitpathy towards Basara.

VFTF1

[Alex]

I much prefer the version of Basara that appears in Dynamite. Though the arrogant, obnoxious git from the series is fun to watch.

Was discussing Basara's origin with a friend the other day and caught a lot of flak for my "Basara's parents are Shin and Sara" theory.

[VFTF1]

Was discussing Basara's origin with a friend the other day and caught a lot of flak for my "Basara's parents are Shin and Sara" theory.

I have not heard this theary; and I just assumed the "official" "ridiculous" M7 "rumor" that Basara is the son of Minmey and Hikaru was true...

But come to think of it, I guess he could be the son of Shin and Sara - especially given how Basara wants to move a mountain... if Sara could move rocks; then he figures he could move mountains - that's a very nice analogy...

But the problem with this is that Sara would have given birth to Basara somewhere in ...err...alien deep space?

Anyway - I'd be interested in hearing the theory. Lay it out please

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Shin and Sara simple CANNOT be Basara's parents, because Shin and Sara, in deep space, were fused, 2001-style, into a single, perfect hermaphroditic being, that decided to name itself "Sheryl Nome."

(This was previously only my theory, but now I am stating it as fact. Internet rumor fame, here I come!)

[VFTF1]

Listen Gubublabla -you might think you're hot stuff, what with yer fancy pancy vocabulary and words like hermesformadic - but...uh...

hmm...actually that is I suppose a valid interpretation of events. I always treated the ending of Macross Zero as a metaphor. In my mind, Shin actually died tragically crashing in to the ocean - but his spiritia was transmited into space to be with Sara forever (and Sara, mind you, also probably died:( )...

VFTF1

[Zinjo]

Your love or hate of Basara, I believe comes from when you were exposed to Macross.

The SDFM generation tends to lean toward the "not liking", while the Macross 7 generation tends to lean toward "liking" him. It's like a first love, you always prefer something that reminds you of your first love.

The suspension of disbelif in M7 is too much for my mind to flex around. A darker more dramatic series with monsters that were actually scary to look at would have gone much farther than inceasant j-pop and rainbow rays. That's me, though.

As for military strategy in SW1, the critical error made by UNSpacy was the extra ordinary faith the leadership put into 1 cannon vs a million+ alien starships. Yes it dealt considerable destruction, but it left thousands of ships behind. It's like kicking a wasp nest and expecting the Wasps to go away because a few got killed in the attack. The two sides were essentially at a standoff until the cannon fired.

It was in this respect where UNSpacy failed to protect the populations of Earth... Essentially human arrogance once again is the instrument of man's own demise... Whether the Zents would have obliterated the planet, is debatable, but we do know who fired the first shot at the final battle.

[Gubaba]

Listen Gubublabla -you might think you're hot stuff, what with yer fancy pancy vocabulary and words like hermesformadic - but...uh...

hmm...actually that is I suppose a valid interpretation of events. I always treated the ending of Macross Zero as a metaphor. In my mind, Shin actually died tragically crashing in to the ocean - but his spiritia was transmited into space to be with Sara forever (and Sara, mind you, also probably died:( )...

VFTF1

Well that's...bleak.

Especially considering that everyone else in the series probably died two years later in Bodolzaa's attack.

C'mon! In Macross, isn't love supposed to conquer all? Even a busted-up VF-0?

[Vifam7]

Listen Gubublabla -you might think you're hot stuff, what with yer fancy pancy vocabulary and words like hermesformadic - but...uh...

hmm...actually that is I suppose a valid interpretation of events. I always treated the ending of Macross Zero as a metaphor. In my mind, Shin actually died tragically crashing in to the ocean - but his spiritia was transmited into space to be with Sara forever (and Sara, mind you, also probably died:( )...

VFTF1

I like your interpretation of the ending. Maybe I'll make it mine too. Makes MZero a bit darker & cooler.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Vifam7

[Alex]

I was really only joking about it but there was some ham-fisted logic on my part. The whole moving the mountains thing was one of them. Then I noticed that Basara seems to have paid respect to his father"s lighting helmet design on his own Valks helmet. On that note, Basara was the first person in the show to show both singing and ace piloting skills. Not only that, but the first to have a supernatural aspect to his singing.

Did he inherit both these skills from his parents? it's a nice fit.

He also wears that pink bandana around his leg. Was it the pink cloth that Sara wore in her hair in the final episod?. Maybe he got that as a momento from his mother.

The kanji for Basara's name also translates as "Hot air". Perhaps Sara gave him a name that reminded her of his father.

OK, i'm in no way serious about any of this btw. I'm just bored.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Alex

[foolworm]

It's the pink ribbon band from the FF7C!

But back on topic...

Basara, for all his skill, really grinds me with his.... philosophy.

It's one thing to try and abstain from violence, but to actively spurn combat when your entire world is threatened by an alien menace?

It's almost delusional that he believes his songs can somehow solve everything... it was pure luck that he possessed anima spiritia at all. One of my most contentious points about M7 is how it demotes the power of song into this pseudo-mystical quality that is really Basara magic... Culture shock I can understand, but this is pushing it too far.

Basara's attitude, of course is still the main gripe about him. He really is a good character, it's just a pity that this whiny self-righteous attitude is forced onto him. I'd almost take the whiny emofests that MCs are today over him.

My sympathy lies, oddly enough, with Physica.

Edited April 17, 2008 by foolworm

[Gubaba]

He really is a good character, it's just a pity that this whiny self-righteous attitude is forced onto him. I'd almost take the whiny emofests that MCs are today over him.

Whiny? I defy you to show me any scene where Basara whines. Gets angry, sure. Acts like a total ass, yes. But whiny...?

My sympathy lies, oddly enough, with Physica.

Not odd at all. He didn't have many scenes, but the scenes he had were good ones.

[JB0]

As for military strategy in SW1, the critical error made by UNSpacy was the extra ordinary faith the leadership put into 1 cannon vs a million+ alien starships. Yes it dealt considerable destruction, but it left thousands of ships behind. It's like kicking a wasp nest and expecting the Wasps to go away because a few got killed in the attack. The two sides were essentially at a standoff until the cannon fired.

It was in this respect where UNSpacy failed to protect the populations of Earth... Essentially human arrogance once again is the instrument of man's own demise... Whether the Zents would have obliterated the planet, is debatable, but we do know who fired the first shot at the final battle.

Yes, we DO know who fired first.

Episode 27: 5 minutes, 25 seconds: The Zentradi fleet fires on Earth, as Hikaru and Minmay express mutual angst.

7:05: Bodol laughs evilly at the devastation of the Earth.

10:25: The Grand Cannon unleashes holy hell on the Zentradi fleet.

The cannon fires AFTER the zentradi bombardment.

Other notable points:

Bodol orders the fleet to fire on the Earth as soon as the fleet's defold is confirmed.

The brass in the Grand Cannon base are attempting to contact the zentradi fleet and being completely ignored.

This ain't your modern pacifist hippie anime where all pain and suffering is the direct fault of the evil warmongering military.

The zentradi fleet only came to Earth because it had ALREADY been decided that the planet, the Macross, and the "infected" zentradi ships would be destroyed to prevent cultural contamination.

And yes, I just HAPPENED to have my DVDs sitting next to me and got obsessive with the timestamps.

Not obsessive enough to back up and find the episode where they establish that this is standard operating procedure for the zentradi when they find a "cultured" world, though.

The kanji for Basara's name also translates as "Hot air".

Okay, love him or hate him, you have to admit that's hilarious.

Edited April 17, 2008 by JB0

[VFTF1]

Wiki tells me that "hot air" also means "enthusiasm" in Japanese - and in fact enthusiasm and hot air could be two sides of the same coin.

As to Basara being ridiculous because of taking his philosophy to an extreme...

ok...

don't anybody get mad at me or take offense - these are just some thoughts/opinions - all open to debate....

But think for a minute about Jesus Christ and the relation of Jesus' philosophy to Basara and Basara's philosophy.

Jesus said people should turn the other cheek when they are being attacked; the reason Jesus said people should do this is because everyone is God's child, everyone is potentially good - it is the fallen nature of people that makes them wicked, and Jesus was arguing that to conquer this fallen nature only love (manifested in practice by turning the other cheek) could move people to the point where they would recall their higher called and turn their back on their fallen nature.

This view is radical. It is utterly "ridiculous." It is extremist. It does not "work" (and it did not "work" for Jesus or his followers who effectively disarmed themselves and got themselves crucified/eaten by lions).

But Jesus did not say that the most important thing was to have a philosophy that didn't sound ridiculous, he didn't say the most important thing was to not be looked at as extreme - and he certainly didn't seem to care whether his philosophy "worked" in practice - whether it ended up converting the people of earth to his cause, or whether it just ended up getting him and his followers killed.

Now here we are 2000 years later, and Christianity is a major force - for good or ill - in the world - but the point is it survived and is widely practiced (for better or worse, in a way that is more principled or less).

Now - Basara, in my view - is identical to Jesus in this respect. It really doesn't matter if his philosophy is ridiculous, or extremist, or annoying - all that matters is whether or not he's right or wrong - whether his path is the true path or not.

Basara feels that his path is the true path - and I guess he just happens to have a better singing voice than Jesus, which really helps when the going gets tough.

My point here is not to be blasphemous (so don't want to offend any religious folk) or sermonize (so no, don't treat this like a plug for Christianity) - but merely to make a comparison and some inferences. Like it or not, most people react to Basara just like most people react to Jesus.

This is because until most of us are very close to death, we tend not to want to think about "ultimate" quetions - we like to sampel life, we might even expect some bad things out of it, and we tend to think that there are no "absolutes" outside of their contexts (for instance- turning the other cheek is a great lesson for kids to learn, when the bully wants to provoke them, or in certain other circumstances where being too gung ho could get people in trouble - but in some circumstances it's better to have a gun or a knife or your fist nearby just in case someone decides to tag the cheek you're showing them) -

Jesus and Basara don't accept this "worldly" way of thinking. Basara believes so much in the power of his songs and Jesus believes so much in the power of God the Father that the both of them "force" people - not in the sense of actual coercion but more in the sense of psychological pressure - their very presence either annoys people or moves people to give up their lives and radically change and adopt and Jesus/Basara like posture.

So - I don't think it's fair to judge Basara as if he were a run of the mill tactician - that's like saying "dag - Jesus was a fool for getting his butt crucified - he could have accomplished more by being more diplomatic" - well - depends on what you want to accomplish.

Jesus and Basara have very precise goals and are very determined - and both of them are polarizing figures - some people find them the best others can't stand them.

VFTF1

[Macross007]

Wiki tells me that "hot air" also means "enthusiasm" in Japanese - and in fact enthusiasm and hot air could be two sides of the same coin.

As to Basara being ridiculous because of taking his philosophy to an extreme...

ok...

don't anybody get mad at me or take offense - these are just some thoughts/opinions - all open to debate....

But think for a minute about Jesus Christ and the relation of Jesus' philosophy to Basara and Basara's philosophy.

Jesus said people should turn the other cheek when they are being attacked; the reason Jesus said people should do this is because everyone is God's child, everyone is potentially good - it is the fallen nature of people that makes them wicked, and Jesus was arguing that to conquer this fallen nature only love (manifested in practice by turning the other cheek) could move people to the point where they would recall their higher called and turn their back on their fallen nature.

This view is radical. It is utterly "ridiculous." It is extremist. It does not "work" (and it did not "work" for Jesus or his followers who effectively disarmed themselves and got themselves crucified/eaten by lions).

But Jesus did not say that the most important thing was to have a philosophy that didn't sound ridiculous, he didn't say the most important thing was to not be looked at as extreme - and he certainly didn't seem to care whether his philosophy "worked" in practice - whether it ended up converting the people of earth to his cause, or whether it just ended up getting him and his followers killed.

Now here we are 2000 years later, and Christianity is a major force - for good or ill - in the world - but the point is it survived and is widely practiced (for better or worse, in a way that is more principled or less).

Now - Basara, in my view - is identical to Jesus in this respect. It really doesn't matter if his philosophy is ridiculous, or extremist, or annoying - all that matters is whether or not he's right or wrong - whether his path is the true path or not.

Basara feels that his path is the true path - and I guess he just happens to have a better singing voice than Jesus, which really helps when the going gets tough.

My point here is not to be blasphemous (so don't want to offend any religious folk) or sermonize (so no, don't treat this like a plug for Christianity) - but merely to make a comparison and some inferences. Like it or not, most people react to Basara just like most people react to Jesus.

This is because until most of us are very close to death, we tend not to want to think about "ultimate" quetions - we like to sampel life, we might even expect some bad things out of it, and we tend to think that there are no "absolutes" outside of their contexts (for instance- turning the other cheek is a great lesson for kids to learn, when the bully wants to provoke them, or in certain other circumstances where being too gung ho could get people in trouble - but in some circumstances it's better to have a gun or a knife or your fist nearby just in case someone decides to tag the cheek you're showing them) -

Jesus and Basara don't accept this "worldly" way of thinking. Basara believes so much in the power of his songs and Jesus believes so much in the power of God the Father that the both of them "force" people - not in the sense of actual coercion but more in the sense of psychological pressure - their very presence either annoys people or moves people to give up their lives and radically change and adopt and Jesus/Basara like posture.

So - I don't think it's fair to judge Basara as if he were a run of the mill tactician - that's like saying "dag - Jesus was a fool for getting his butt crucified - he could have accomplished more by being more diplomatic" - well - depends on what you want to accomplish.

Jesus and Basara have very precise goals and are very determined - and both of them are polarizing figures - some people find them the best others can't stand them.

VFTF1

Amen for Jesus Basara.

[s001]

Ok that's all, no more a$$ kissing for the lamest Macross character ever!

[Ork_dreadnought]

Wiki tells me that "hot air" also means "enthusiasm" in Japanese - and in fact enthusiasm and hot air could be two sides of the same coin.

As to Basara being ridiculous because of taking his philosophy to an extreme...

ok...

don't anybody get mad at me or take offense - these are just some thoughts/opinions - all open to debate....

But think for a minute about Jesus Christ and the relation of Jesus' philosophy to Basara and Basara's philosophy.

Wow, this is by some margin the dumbest post I've seen outside of 4chan.

You've confirmed what I suspected for sometime, that you have passed beyond simple fanboyism in to realms of complete self-delusion. The mere fact that you've brought god junior into this is bad enough, but comparing Basara to Jesus is both totally groundless and flamebait of the highest order. Even by the standards of Macross 7 arguements on this forum. I'm not going to dignify this self-indulgent twaddle of a post with a full response, except to say, step away from the keyboard and take a reality check.

Next time, try comparing him to John Lennon, although that's possibly worse.

[Gubaba]

Next time, try comparing him to John Lennon, although that's possibly worse.

They have the same glasses, and similar voices.

There. I did it.

And if Lennon was right, the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. So if Basara and John Lennon are alike, then Basara is more than 1/4 the size of Jesus.

(I'm trying to kill this thread by wrapping up all the loose ends into a neat little bow. Can you tell?)

[Ork_dreadnought]

They have the same glasses, and similar voices.

There. I did it.

Careful, I think people will be more upset at this than the Jesus comparison. Despite the fact its faaarrrr more vaild.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[foolworm]

Whiny? I defy you to show me any scene where Basara whines. Gets angry, sure. Acts like a total ass, yes. But whiny...?

Every time he whines about Mylene's attempts to get gigs is a good example.

Maybe you don't agree, but it's whining to these ears.

Not that Mylene's any better, but doesn't Barasa kind of make his living off the gigs that he does?

Mylene needn't care at all about him, really.

Of course, my take on the Maxmillian issue:

The guy doesn't make a huge deal - he flies to kill, and does a damned good job at it. He doesn't upstage anyone, just does his job.

Basara? He butts right into a battlefield, shoots speakers all over the place like a maniac and blares (admittedly good) crap over open channels. It's perfectly understandable that Gamlin would regard him as a nuisance - he's endangering others by becoming an open obstacle in the battlefield and potentially a package to be babysitted regardless of his skills.

Of course, the realities change when the series really picks off, but the first parts of M7 really damaged Basara's character because of these flaws - to an extent, irreversibly for this viewer.

Oh, and Guvava is the Christ figure in M7. All worship the omnipotent and hyperadorable Guvava!

Edited April 19, 2008 by foolworm

[Gubaba]

Ah. When I hear the word "whiny," I always expect something like, "RaaaAAAyyy, Mylene won't stop LOOOKING at meeeeeeee..."

I'd be pretty pissed too if I were a rock singer and got booked in some posh resort hotel (or an old folks home...or a pre-school..."If I told them once, I told them a thousand times...put Fire Bomber first and Puppet Show last...").

But you raise an interesting question...how DOES Basara make his living? I don't think it's through his music...at least, not at first.

I can't imagine him doing anything with a lot of money except giving it to Ray and saying, "Here. You take care of this. I'm going to go play my guitar."

[foolworm]

Well, if he actually actively tried to promote himself instead of expecting everyone to magically understand him perfectly, then he wouldn't be stuck with those lousy gigs in the first place.

Then again, wasn't that the entire point of that self-discovery subplot on Lux - not to proselytize and expect instant conversion?

I have this impression of Basara that he's an eccentric that hit it lucky big time - it's a wonder with that attitude that he wasn't beaten to death by some tone-deaf thug already.

He seems like the kind of guy who makes a big front, but actually has all these thankless support staff without which he is essentially nothing.

Of course, the most can be said of most celebrities, but at least they do it after they hit gold and not before.

As to his potential other jobs, I can only say I don't want him in the cubicle next to mine - but I admire his career.

I mean, you get all your basic necessities and more for nothing, pilot cutting-edge military vehicles and sing your heart out AND get called a hero? What more do you want? He's not even registered as an inhabitant on 7; no need to pay bills!

Don't get me wrong, he's essentially a well-intentioned heart with admirable ideals; it's just the means I have a bone with, not the ends. That, of course, and his attitude.

Edited April 19, 2008 by foolworm

[Gubaba]

Oh yeah, I get the feeling that Basara is completely hopeless in the "real" world, and that he'd starve without Ray looking out for him.

At least we can be sure that fame won't change him...he'll be the same maddening oddball he always was...

And, as I recall...some tone-deaf thugs DID try to give him a whompin'. It didn't work too well.

And as for promoting himself...Dude, he flies out into the middle of battles in a candy apple red Valk and sings at aliens! What better promotion could you hope for...?

Edited April 19, 2008 by Gubaba

[foolworm]

Didn't he convert them eventually with his music? Ah, Basara... if Minmay was a bombshell (and make no mistake, she is... Ranka will lose MM because she's got no figure), then he's an antimatter black hole. On steroids.

I dunno... it's a good stunt, but do people necessarily know what he's out to do? I know Mylene touched on it, but that principal wanted him for his acrobatics, not singing skill.

Edited April 19, 2008 by foolworm

[Gubaba]

Didn't he convert them eventually with his music? Ah, Basara... if Minmay was a bombshell (and make no mistake, she is... Ranka will lose MM because she's got no figure), then he's an antimatter black hole. On steroids.

Basara would say he coverted them with his music. Me, I think he coverted them with his Valk.

...and I think Geperunichi was the antimatter black hole on steroids. With, um, tree trunks growing out of it...

[foolworm]

...and I think Geperunichi was the antimatter black hole on steroids. With, um, tree trunks growing out of it...

Ouch, you got me there. But I'm sure you get what I mean, the guy's dynamite.

[Gubaba]

He sure is! DYNAMITE EXPLOSION ONCE AGAIN!!!

(No, I get you...but hey, if you keep setting cheap shots up, I'll keep taking 'em.)

[VFTF1]

if Minmay was a bombshell (and make no mistake, she is... Ranka will lose MM because she's got no figure

I don't think Minmei won Miss Macross because of her figure; nor was she a bombshell - I think what swayed people was her 'girl next door charm' and the fact that she clearly looked and acted like someone unprepared - aka normal, very much like the people of Macross themselves...plus, perhaps being only 16 factored in as well - we have a tendency to be very lenient for those who are younger while being more harsh in our judgment for those who can take it... I'm not saying Minmei's looks had nothing to do with it - of course she's cute - but so were lots of the girls competing; she had a great character to her though - fit the part and moved people.

As for Ranka having no figure - I think that's not true - she just wears that semi-baggy dress with the big scarf and boots that don't have heels - but I can't see how anyone could take a look at Ranka in her waitress uniform and say she has no figure

As for Basara and how he scrounges a living...

Well - clearly he is very aloof and not even interested in promoting his own music. He walks out during sessions and obviously would have no money if not for Ray, Melene and that Manager chick taking care to make sure Fire Bomber sells.

But then again - Basara seems to be "Livin' in a Hell Hole!" and as we know "Folks lend a hand in a Hell Hole!!" so Basara knows where he sand in a Hell Hole.

What's great about this is Basara doesn't move out of his Hell Hole - he just lives there. The building is clearly dilapidated and condemned. And I'm glad he's not "registered." Why should he "register?" He's a wanderer, a squater, a free spirit -

In short - he's everything that the Macross fleets were sent throughout the universe to spread and defend:

Basara is Protoculture!

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Basara is Protoculture?

No, no...as your references and mine a few posts up show, Basara is Nigel Tufnel!

(although Nigel Tufnel may be Protoculture...which would be a HUGE disappointment to all...and yet, somehow, oddly fitting.)

[VFTF1]

If Nigel had attacked the Protodevilin with his guitar solos; they would most certainly have given up and left the fleet alone.

VFTF1

EDIT: And naturally, to win them over, he'd just have to turn it up to 11.

Edited April 19, 2008 by VFTF1

[foolworm]

I never stated that Minmay won because of her figure; the Ranka part is a poke at the manga. Oops, shouldn't have said that.

And to play Devil's advocate

Anyway, a wanderer and a squatter hardly seems to be what the Macross fleets were supposed to defend - it was culture, human culture. Squatters are something that would undermine and destroy culture, wouldn't you think?

Funny how Basara has those hands lent to him, while he never lends any out himself... glued to the guitar strings, that's what.

[VFTF1]

And to play Devil's advocate

Anyway, a wanderer and a squatter hardly seems to be what the Macross fleets were supposed to defend - it was culture, human culture. Squatters are something that would undermine and destroy culture, wouldn't you think?

Funny how Basara has those hands lent to him, while he never lends any out himself... glued to the guitar strings, that's what.

Well, it's Saturday, the sun is shining so I'll happily play Angel's advocate...

First; I don't see how squatters would undermine and destroy culture? Perhaps we understand the meaning of the word differently; so just to be clear - I meant to say that Basara is a wanderer and a squatter insofar as he is always constantly seeking out something - he himself does not know what, but his music reflects his emotional changes as the quest is in progress. Perhaps what he seeks is acceptance? He certainly seeks to give the gift of his music to a universe that doesn't seem to want it - so it is a hard task. In this seeking, Basara is never content, and never "grounded" (thus is remains unregistered and lives in a hell hole).

I agree that such behavior is destructive of convention; but not of true culture; although perhaps of human culture insofar as human culture is more conventional than truthful, albeit if this is so then it is a creative destruction.

True culture grows out of people like Basara who authentically experience their lives rather than wrapping themselves up in the safe trappings of convention. In fact, all people are "wanderers" and "squaters" - especially people in the Macross fleets who wander through the universe itself. But the city-speheres make people feel safe and forget the reality of human groundlessness and alone-ness in the universe.

This is all well and good, for to live in constant anxiety would be worthless; but it is equally terrible to live in constant morbid and delusional safety. Basara refuses to allow convention to suck him in and remains anxious - constantly doing things to remind himself and others that humanity is groundless and a race of wanderers.

To the extent that in doing so Basara breaks convnetional culture then yes - he is destructive - but he only breaks conventional culture in the same way that Minmey and the citizens of Macross City broke down the conventional culture of the Zendradi - so I think that in doing so Basara saves humanity from the fate of the Zendradi.

Remember towards the end of SDF M TV, the debate about human nature, about how the Zendradi and Humanity are not that different, about how war is in our natures. Remember also how sad Global and Hikaru and the others were when they had to capture and activate the Sattelite Factory - it was a major blow to them - because they all realized that producing more warships to protect humanity they were doing what the protoculture did when they produced the Zendradi - and that the weapons they were making might eventually be the ruin of their race.

Basara seeks to terminate this circle of hate and violence once and for all - by doing exactly what Sara taught Shin to do: simply say NO to war and violence and to the Kadun of strife.

I notice than next to Macross 7, Macross Zero has the most detractors - story wise. I personally think Macross Zero is the best of all of the Macross stories; visually and plotwise. Macross Plus is more realistic, true - but Zero is more moving and more willing to break through the "reality" that, as Sara says, "is a Kadun which makes your people believe only what their eyes show them."

Basara is not possesed by this Kadun. Basara recognizes that love and music and joy are the greater realities that he must open up before both his own people and the aliens.

His hands are glued to the guitar strings because it is his guitar that is the means by which he "lends out" his hands to other people.

We should not say that a heart surgeon who uses his hands to repair peoples' hearts is not helping humanity because on Saturday and Sunday he plays golf and kicks back with a beer instead of sweeping streets or building houses along with Habitat for Humanity.

His hands save hearts and lives - his talent is directed best when used for heart surgery. Basara's talent as an artist best serves people when he sings and flies out into battles to sing to people.

It is not that far off - the famous story of German and French troops singing together on Christmas eve during World War I illustrates the power of Song.

The fact that later they went back to killing eachother illustrates the cultural conventions that need to be over come. The fact that they were all registered before killing eachother does not make them preferable to the unregistered Basara.

Power to the Music!

VFTF1

[alindasue]

They have the same glasses, and similar voices.

There. I did it.

And if Lennon was right, the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. So if Basara and John Lennon are alike, then Basara is more than 1/4 the size of Jesus.

(I'm trying to kill this thread by wrapping up all the loose ends into a neat little bow. Can you tell?)

When Yoshiki Fukuyama, Basara's singing voice and guitar, came out with his first solo album a few years back, one of the reviewers of the album started hisreview with something that translated as "if John Lennon were Japanese..."

Comparing Basara to John Lennon is not that far off. ^^b

peace

[Keith]

Wait a minute here, not only is Basara like John Lennon, but Sivil sings a lot like Yokko Ono!