How do you feel about Basara?

[Ork_dreadnought]

As you yourself point out, they form the same function in both shows, and I'll say this again, both provoke (largely unwarrented) dislike from the fanbase due to having a odd or atypical approach to war. If you want to keep on instisting to connection is superficial, fine, your opinion and all. I don't claim that this is all there is to the character. You are are however ignoring the best description of Basara you can get in a single sentance, that he is M7's Minmay with a touch of Kaifun about him.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Gubaba]

As I said before, KAIFUN IS NOT A PACIFIST! He just hates the military. Two COMPLETELY different things!

[Radd]

I'm not ignoring anything. You said;

Basara just seems like a male version of Minmay, but with Kaifun's politics

I pointed out that any similarity in their politics is superficial, I could say you ignored that point because afterwards you went right on to say they're both pacifists. You could say that they're both vocal and opinionated. I think I'd agree with that, but that's not really the same thing as having the same politics, and not really enough to draw a direct comparison between the two characters.

[Ork_dreadnought]

Point well made, Radd, I understand where your're coming from now. As far as I'm concern pacifism is a politcal position, which is what I meant by having the same politics, so I apologise for not making that clear.

As I said before, KAIFUN IS NOT A PACIFIST! He just hates the military. Two COMPLETELY different things!

Someone who hates the military isn't pacifist? Please explain how that works. (Pacifist = anti-war, military = war, hating military = anti war, kaifun hates military so Kaifun = pacifist)

Dude, he joined the damn peace movement! That's where he'd been prior to episode 15. In episode 16 a big show is made of how he uses only defensive Kung Fu moves.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Exsedol]

Someone who hates the military isn't pacifist? Please explain how that works. (Pacifist = anti-war, military = war, hating military = anti war, kaifun hates military so Kaifun = pacifist)

A pacifist isn't anti-war, they are anti-violence. Not every war is violent. Kaifun doesn't know what he is which is why he becomes an abusive alcoholic. If anything he had the same mentality as a 15 year old punk rocker

[Ork_dreadnought]

War is an act of violence (many, many actually), so your answer doesn't fly. Calling something a war where people don't die is just a metaphor.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Gubaba]

Point well made, Radd, I understand where your're coming from now. As far as I'm concern pacifism is a politcal position, which is what I meant by having the same politics, so I apologise for not making that clear.

Someone who hates the military isn't pacifist? Please explain how that works. (Pacifist = anti-war, military = war, hating military = anti war, kaifun hates military so Kaifun = pacifist)

Dude, he joined the damn peace movement! That's where he'd been prior to episode 15. In episode 16 a big show is made of how he uses only defensive Kung Fu moves.

A pacifist is someone against violence and hate, embracing communication and understanding. Kaifun is violent and full of hate, and shows no signs of trying to understand much of anyhing. Therefore, Kaifun is not a pacifist. Didn't I already cover this a few posts back...?

[Ork_dreadnought]

So, your basic arguement is Kaifun isn't pacifist because he isn't a nice person? Seems to me Kaifun fullfilled all practical requirements for being a pacifist, except he was verbal/fundamentalist about it.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Gubaba]

Not that he's not a nice person, but...let's face it, Ghandi he ain't. I think he's just a hypocrite

But I'm willing to back off a bit and say that maybe he IS a pacifist...he's just really, REALLY bad at it.

[Ork_dreadnought]

Well, I think you've got him in a nutshell there. He can do the obvious, practical stuff, but stops short of actually acheiving the right mindset.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Gubaba]

Well, I think you've got him in a nutshell there.

Thanks. But any way you look at it, you gotta admit that Basara puts his money where his mouth is in a way that Kaifun would be incapable of.

Also, I don't think Basara hates the military, he just thinks they're going about it the wrong way. But if he cut his lip, and Sally S. Ford offered him a tissue, I think he'd accept it.

And then sing "Planet Dance" at her.

[JB0]

So, your basic arguement is Kaifun isn't pacifist because he isn't a nice person? Seems to me Kaifun fullfilled all practical requirements for being a pacifist, except he was verbal/fundamentalist about it.

Check the brawl in the restaurant. Kaifun hit at least one person.

He also threw booze at Minmay.

Anyways...

It's also worth noting that Hikaru was, at one point, a pacifist.

A major point of his early development was coming to terms with the fact that sometimes life throws situations out that just can't be resolved peacefully, and that arc peaks in Transformation with his decision to enlist after the destruction of the rebuilt Macross City(and I only just realized that's not the painfully literal episode title it seems to be...).

Hikaru's still not going to run out and pick a fight, but he acknowledges the necessity of taking up arms in defense of your home, your people, and your world.

IMO, Basara is Hikaru, just without that moment of realization.

He never accepts that sometimes you can't solve a problem in a non-violent manner, and gets pissed when people make him resort to violence. Singing to a group of street thugs trying to punch your lights out isn't any more effective than sitting in a park and sulking while aliens shoot at your space ship.

Fortunately for Basara, singing to interdimensional invaders trying to eat your soul IS more effective than shooting at them, and his stubborn adherence to an ideal is ultimately to humanity's benefit.

[Ork_dreadnought]

I'm going to have to say again that pacifists aren't automatically good people. Or, as Gubaba, he's very bad at his philosphy.

However, that's a very interesting way to look at Basara. I'm not entirely sure that its entirely correct (but then, neither is my basara = M7 Minmay statment). The main difference would be in my eyes that Basara does not have, how to describe it, a power curve? Basara is an awesome pilot from episode 1, and goes on to be come the savior of the fleet. Hikaru has to learn, and even then he ins't the best. He isn't the savior of the Macross, that honor, if it can be applied to a single person, goes to Minmay. So I would continue to say Basara owes more to Minmay than Hikaru, if only for the simple reason he sings.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Radd]

IMO, Basara is Hikaru, just without that moment of realization.

He never accepts that sometimes you can't solve a problem in a non-violent manner, and gets pissed when people make him resort to violence. Singing to a group of street thugs trying to punch your lights out isn't any more effective than sitting in a park and sulking while aliens shoot at your space ship.

Fortunately for Basara, singing to interdimensional invaders trying to eat your soul IS more effective than shooting at them, and his stubborn adherence to an ideal is ultimately to humanity's benefit.

But, is that moment of realization necessarily the end-all, be all? Something that everyone needs to come to terms with? There is something to be said for making your enemy realize that you're not just a cardboard cut-out to be shot at, and Basara did go out of his way to make that connection. I hardly think his actions throughout M7 amount to Hikaru sitting in the park sulking. I'd say that goes for singing at street thugs, too.

Personally, I think the point of Basara's ideals could have been presented in a much better, more thought-provoking way than the series wound up managing when the people in charge decided to package it in bright colours, with glowing lights and effects when people start singing. However, I really don't think that makes the idea so easy to dismiss.

My major gripe with the show has always been its presentation. The ideals are respectable and well worth considering, just they were presented in such a cartoony way. I still enjoy the show, but can't help but feel that they could have presented the same core ideals in a much more convincing way, and wove it into a much more intriguing story. So much so, that I suspect Basara's personality and character could have been left pretty much entirely the same, and people may very well have come away with very different feelings about him.

[VFTF1]

if you don't like "Planet Dance," it's almost a certainty you won't get past episode eight.

I HATE Planet Dance and actually almost didn't make it through episode 8... but boy - am I glad I did

As to all that's been said:

1. I don't agree that the military "botched" Space War I - the nature of war is chaotic; it is not a series of logical inferences like a chess game. The military did the best it could. I tend to think that the best testimony to this is Gloval's many dilemas, and Hikaru and Misa's emotional reactions to the unfolding war. It's not a simple matter of "we won because we were smart" or "we botched it because we were dumb!" Also - think about it - what OTHER result can you expect than the destruction of human civilization when 1000 Alien space ships and their bee hive show up in your orbit? Really - come, tell me you geniuses of war - what would YOU have done? That human beings even survived and began rebuilding and integrating with the Zendradi only a few years after the entire Earth was pretty much annihilated has to be considered a VICTORY for the UN Spacey - not botched.

2. Kaifun is a pacifist, albeit "not a very good one" - I agree with this point, but I would add something in his defense: Why is it that he would necessarily HAVE TO be a 'very good one?' That's like saying that the majority of people, who after all don't murder others around them on a daily basis and for all practical purposes are "pacifists" aren't very inspiring or good because they aren't like Gandhi. Why can't Kaifun be self absorbed and concerned with his own pleasure and anti-authoritarian? Besides, I don't really see where the hypocracy is? He didn't go around punching people or beating them up - and sure the military saved his life a million times over; but arguably they put it in danger just as many times. I don't like Kaifun - but in a complex story; we aren't justified in making him the scapegoat. Maybe he's like the male version of Minmey: shallow and compelling... if you're Misa.

3. Basara is very much like Gandhi - in that he is a politically engaged active - heck very active - pacifist. He is annoying not because of who he is but because of what he does. Kaifun - if you didn't like him you could just stay away from him or ignore him - Basara will run after you screaming "Listen to my music!" until you change and open yourself to love and peace and happiness and art.

4. Finally - I personally think it was a good idea to make a controversial character like Basara a lead - I think the strong feelings of people about M7 are a good thing - makes the series all that more compelling if it can elicit this much emotion.

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

I HATE Planet Dance and actually almost didn't make it through episode 8... but boy - am I glad I did

As to all that's been said:

1. I don't agree that the military "botched" Space War I - the nature of war is chaotic; it is not a series of logical inferences like a chess game. The military did the best it could. I tend to think that the best testimony to this is Gloval's many dilemas, and Hikaru and Misa's emotional reactions to the unfolding war. It's not a simple matter of "we won because we were smart" or "we botched it because we were dumb!" Also - think about it - what OTHER result can you expect than the destruction of human civilization when 1000 Alien space ships and their bee hive show up in your orbit? Really - come, tell me you geniuses of war - what would YOU have done? That human beings even survived and began rebuilding and integrating with the Zendradi only a few years after the entire Earth was pretty much annihilated has to be considered a VICTORY for the UN Spacey - not botched.

2. Kaifun is a pacifist, albeit "not a very good one" - I agree with this point, but I would add something in his defense: Why is it that he would necessarily HAVE TO be a 'very good one?' That's like saying that the majority of people, who after all don't murder others around them on a daily basis and for all practical purposes are "pacifists" aren't very inspiring or good because they aren't like Gandhi. Why can't Kaifun be self absorbed and concerned with his own pleasure and anti-authoritarian? Besides, I don't really see where the hypocracy is? He didn't go around punching people or beating them up - and sure the military saved his life a million times over; but arguably they put it in danger just as many times. I don't like Kaifun - but in a complex story; we aren't justified in making him the scapegoat. Maybe he's like the male version of Minmey: shallow and compelling... if you're Misa.

3. Basara is very much like Gandhi - in that he is a politically engaged active - heck very active - pacifist. He is annoying not because of who he is but because of what he does. Kaifun - if you didn't like him you could just stay away from him or ignore him - Basara will run after you screaming "Listen to my music!" until you change and open yourself to love and peace and happiness and art.

4. Finally - I personally think it was a good idea to make a controversial character like Basara a lead - I think the strong feelings of people about M7 are a good thing - makes the series all that more compelling if it can elicit this much emotion.

VFTF1

1. Maybe instead of "they botched it up," I should have just said, "They failed to save the lives of billions of people." Few would disagree with the latter statement, I think. Who was who said something like, "A few more victories like that and we'll be finished"? They did the best they could, but they lost most of the planet. I call that a botched attempt to save the earth, but I guess I'm alone.

2. He doesn't have to be a good pacifist...I was just arguing one of many reasons why he and Basara have nothing in common.

3. I bet you anything Gandhi couldn't fly a VF-19!

4. I've always found this logic specious. If, in the last episode of SDFM, Minmy had run to the bridge of the Macross and launched it all by herself, and Kamjin micronized himself so he could give Misa flowers and blush a lot, and Hikaru spontaneously combusted, a lot of us would feel very strongly about it indeed. Because it would suck.

I'm not saying that Macross 7 sucks (I don't think it does), but the strong condemnation it gets is not solely due to the work itself, but the work in relation to previous works. No one would hate Macross 7 if it were an original series...the would either like it or ignore it. But the fact that it carries the name "Macross" measn that, if you're a Macross fan, you can't quite bring yourself to ignore it. In addition to that, it's the series with the most ties to the original SDFM, but (superficially at least) it's nothing like SDFM. Hence, some people hate it. "American Grafitti" is not a controversial movie, but if George Lucas rereleased it, and retitled it "Star War Episode VIII: The Cruising Years," it would immediately BECOME controversial. Likewise, the controversy surrounding Macross 7 is not because the story elicits strong feelings, but because the tension between its tone and tone of SDFM and M+ are at so different.

[VFTF1]

I've always found this logic specious. If, in the last episode of SDFM, Minmy had run to the bridge of the Macross and launched it all by herself, and Kamjin micronized himself so he could give Misa flowers and blush a lot, and Hikaru spontaneously combusted, a lot of us would feel very strongly about it indeed. Because it would suck.

I'm not saying that Macross 7 sucks (I don't think it does), but the strong condemnation it gets is not solely due to the work itself, but the work in relation to previous works. No one would hate Macross 7 if it were an original series...the would either like it or ignore it. But the fact that it carries the name "Macross" measn that, if you're a Macross fan, you can't quite bring yourself to ignore it. In addition to that, it's the series with the most ties to the original SDFM, but (superficially at least) it's nothing like SDFM. Hence, some people hate it. "American Grafitti" is not a controversial movie, but if George Lucas rereleased it, and retitled it "Star War Episode VIII: The Cruising Years," it would immediately BECOME controversial. Likewise, the controversy surrounding Macross 7 is not because the story elicits strong feelings, but because the tension between its tone and tone of SDFM and M+ are at so different.

Hmm... good point

I guess I can see that ... and what is especially strange is when M7 explicitly references SDF M - a Macross fan probably feels like a pschyzophrenic then - and there are lots of points in the series when this happens - you want to feel happy and nostalgic but you can't bring yourself to it...or something like that...

Still - I guess my problem is that I really LIKE Macross 7 - and I like it AS MUCH as SDF M.

That the two are totally different in terms of themes, and mood and style -- well - that makes it easier to like them both - and depending on my mood, I turn to one or the other.

Macross Plus - on the other hand - while retaining much of the original "feel" of SDF M...err...I don't like that much... but maybe it's because of the music...

VFTF1

[Vifam7]

Macross Plus - on the other hand - while retaining much of the original "feel" of SDF M...err...I don't like that much... but maybe it's because of the music...

VFTF1

Funny, that's exactly why I hate Basara and Macross 7. I might have been able to stomach (even perhaps enjoy) all the hokeyness and flaws of Macross 7 if the music was good. But unfortunately I couldn't stand listening to Basara screech.

[Ork_dreadnought]

4. I've always found this logic specious. If, in the last episode of SDFM, Minmy had run to the bridge of the Macross and launched it all by herself, and Kamjin micronized himself so he could give Misa flowers and blush a lot, and Hikaru spontaneously combusted, a lot of us would feel very strongly about it indeed. Because it would suck.

I'm not saying that Macross 7 sucks (I don't think it does), but the strong condemnation it gets is not solely due to the work itself, but the work in relation to previous works. No one would hate Macross 7 if it were an original series...the would either like it or ignore it. But the fact that it carries the name "Macross" measn that, if you're a Macross fan, you can't quite bring yourself to ignore it. In addition to that, it's the series with the most ties to the original SDFM, but (superficially at least) it's nothing like SDFM. Hence, some people hate it. "American Grafitti" is not a controversial movie, but if George Lucas rereleased it, and retitled it "Star War Episode VIII: The Cruising Years," it would immediately BECOME controversial. Likewise, the controversy surrounding Macross 7 is not because the story elicits strong feelings, but because the tension between its tone and tone of SDFM and M+ are at so different.

Qouted for truth, that's a vary a consise description of the M7 situation. Just extend that to Basara as an individual, and you've got the reason why so many have issue with him.

[Gubaba]

I guess I can see that ... and what is especially strange is when M7 explicitly references SDF M - a Macross fan probably feels like a pschyzophrenic then - and there are lots of points in the series when this happens - you want to feel happy and nostalgic but you can't bring yourself to it...or something like that...

I think, for a lot of people who take SDFM very seriously, Millia shouting "Who's an old lady!?" and Exsedol blushing are probably difficult to swallow. As I said before, I like Macross 7, but it took some time to adjust to it. And my favorite episodes are the last six or seven, where it really does get much closer to the feel of the original.

Still - I guess my problem is that I really LIKE Macross 7 - and I like it AS MUCH as SDF M.

That's a problem? Man, I wish I liked 7 as much as some of the other series! I'm just about to finish my "Month-Long Macross Madness Marathon" (watching EVERYTHING, three or four episodes a day, for almost six weeks) and almost half of that time was taken up with Macross 7-related material.

Macross Plus - on the other hand - while retaining much of the original "feel" of SDF M...err...I don't like that much... but maybe it's because of the music...

I'm not sure Macross Plus feels much like the original series, either (SDFM is a grand space opera, and a war story. Plus is neither of these. And Plus has a definite creepy vibe that's not in the original). But for some reason, the tone of Plus is more acceptable to most of the fans I've met. SDFM is mostly a serious story, but there are a lot of light touches to it. Plus is darker, Zero is grittier...only 7 retains the lighter aspects of the first series, but I think a lot of Macross fans don't want a bright and colorful Macross. (I dislike the 08th MS Team for a similar reason...it felt too cheery for a Gundam show...if something is U.C. Gundam, I want angst, death, and despair, dammit!)

At least you can say that, whatever you like, there's a Macross that you'll enjoy. But there will also probably be a Macross you don't.

But...you didn't like the music in Plus??? Wow...okay, I take it all back. you're just weird.

[Exsedol]

and Exsedol blushing

Hehe I don't mind Zentradi blushing. Exsedol blushed a few times in sdfm like when he saw the strip club sign hehe He sang too

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I mostly agree with you that it would have been impossible for the earth forces to fight off the Zentradi...too many variables, too much new information about the Zentradi, a changed plan on the part of Bodolza...but the fact remains that the Earth forces were completely unprepared for the threat, even after ten years of getting ready. The attempt to save the earth failed. Hence, it was botched. All the reasons WHY it was botched are good, logical reasons, but the earth was still fried. And I still think that Admiral Hayase was naive to reject his daughter's information. He simply didn't WANT to believe it.

Yeah her dad was too gung ho. There is no reason the humans couldn't have just given the giants the ship and said this is yours now.. Just don't kill us ok? hehe! Maybe just maybe the giants had no interest in humans the way we don't have much interest in ants crawling on the ground enough to waste our time. And they'd just go along minding their own business.

But one thing to keep in mind is that all war brings up a spiritual side to it: man couldn't solve its own problems of wars with itself (ever since ancient times there are people who have ambitions to conquer over people weaker than themselves) so what makes us think that we can truly take the moral high ground when dealing with aliens? Maybe the aliens are just like us and would prefer not to kill things so long as there is no reason for them to attack us? Misa's dad wanted a show of force first and then peace negotiaon so that he can then bargain from a position of strength by first using violence and then using that fear of being attacked again to scare the alien into submission. That's not the same as just negotiating for peace first without any show of force by purposely flexing muscles and killing people to make a point. ie "if you don't say 'yes' this is what will happen to you. Peace is the only option since we have the better technology."

And here lies the reason why SDF:M was good because it wasn't as one sided imo. (it didn't have minmay singing at the start it just built up over time - it wasn't the central reason why war ended - that was just the compressed version of events seen in DYRL to make it "more romantic") The humans could admit we are no better than the aliens ourselves, so maybe instead of blowing them up we can reason with them, and if that doesn't work, use our weapons as a last resort once the negotiation breaks down. Misa's dad ADMITS in the very show he was wrong to doubt his own daughter's estimates. You can't gamble like that when the giants are clearly outnumbering you and all you've got is one measly little ship which isn't enough to defend a whole planet by itself. The cost for being wrong is the entire earth population.

There is a big difference between confidence and being cocky. A confident person makes an educated guess and if in doubt assumes the worst. Whereas the older generation got too cocky thinking they were invincible (maybe they thought the ship had something special about it that gave them a huge advantage which is why the aliens were so interested in it - logical assumption to make) and the cost for that was global death.

Now the defence for this was that the aliens already decided to wipe out earth anyway so why is this important to make a differentiation between misa and her dad? Well the difference is that one wishes for peace and the other wishes for more power using the technology to gain leverage. It's in the attitude about war that makes them different. Most of the soldiers who are out there fighting have families, lovers, friends they want to protect. It's not because they want to get a medal or take the glory and become a famous war hero. (ie like Stick from mospeada) It's in the hope others are kept safe, not being further endangered by snap decisions.

So really although I'm not a pacifist (which means you can't fight back if you are invaded: not good imo) I do sympathise with the peace-fighting characters in SDF:M more than the one in mac7 due to "more shades of grey". There are characters who are younger who question what their older parents are doing (despite being related to them) and want change. Sure the young will fight to protect your family and friends, but only so much that it hopefully leads to something. (ie some long-lasting peace rather than destruction for both sides)

With Basara I never really felt there were the shades of grey from the original macross. Instead of seeing basara slowly grow up as a child and see him gain some kind of life experience as a child about war, or be inspired to use music as a way to bring people together, he just sorta was there. I think it might have been cooler to just have this pilot be mysterious but as others have mentioned, but the price for doing that was we never felt connected to basara in any way that we were with misa or minmay because we got to see them as ordinary people we could relate to. You can't relate to a perfect person. So I view basara as a type of jesus figure trying to preach his view without allowing us to get close to the person before they became a superhero with piloting ability that makes them unstoppable. I think the lack of danger is what made it hard to swallow. Compare that with what kaifun was doing in SDF:M where sometimes although his intentions were good (the cloning chamber episode where the giants steal it) you could see in practice his decisions endangered many lives because he lacks the ability to see it from the military's point of view.

SDF:M didn't just say "one guy is right and here is why". It just showed us a more-balanced view of war imo. But then again: Mac7 wanted to be different and make the bad guys invulnerable to nukes so whatever rules applied to the last war wouldn't be useful against aliens from another dimension. That doesn't mean we should just like it more than SDF:M though, where in SDFM there was a sense of danger and characters with good intentions weren't perfect 100% of the time. If a character must takes risks and can die, they appear more brave for risking their life. But if a character is invicible because he can never die, (aimed at children or just making the show more light-hearted) it's not risky, it's not dangerous, and therefore it's not as "brave". (because the character has started out perfect from the start - robbing us of being allowed to get close to him and connect at the human level)

[Gubaba]

Yeah her dad was too gung ho. There is no reason the humans couldn't have just given the giants the ship and said this is yours now.. Just don't kill us ok? hehe! Maybe just maybe the giants had no interest in humans the way we don't have much interest in ants crawling on the ground enough to waste our time. And they'd just go along minding their own business.

But one thing to keep in mind is that all war brings up a spiritual side to it: man couldn't solve its own problems of wars with itself (ever since ancient times there are people who have ambitions to conquer over people weaker than themselves) so what makes us think that we can truly take the moral high ground when dealing with aliens? Maybe the aliens are just like us and would prefer not to kill things so long as there is no reason for them to attack us? Misa's dad wanted a show of force first and then peace negotiaon so that he can then bargain from a position of strength by first using violence and then using that fear of being attacked again to scare the alien into submission. That's not the same as just negotiating for peace first without any show of force by purposely flexing muscles and killing people to make a point. ie "if you don't say 'yes' this is what will happen to you. Peace is the only option since we have the better technology."

And here lies the reason why SDF:M was good because it wasn't as one sided imo. (it didn't have minmay singing at the start it just built up over time - it wasn't the central reason why war ended - that was just the compressed version of events seen in DYRL to make it "more romantic") The humans could admit we are no better than the aliens ourselves, so maybe instead of blowing them up we can reason with them, and if that doesn't work, use our weapons as a last resort once the negotiation breaks down. Misa's dad ADMITS in the very show he was wrong to doubt his own daughter's estimates. You can't gamble like that when the giants are clearly outnumbering you and all you've got is one measly little ship which isn't enough to defend a whole planet by itself. The cost for being wrong is the entire earth population.

There is a big difference between confidence and being cocky. A confident person makes an educated guess and if in doubt assumes the worst. Whereas the older generation got too cocky thinking they were invincible (maybe they thought the ship had something special about it that gave them a huge advantage which is why the aliens were so interested in it - logical assumption to make) and the cost for that was global death.

Now the defence for this was that the aliens already decided to wipe out earth anyway so why is this important to make a differentiation between misa and her dad? Well the difference is that one wishes for peace and the other wishes for more power using the technology to gain leverage. It's in the attitude about war that makes them different. Most of the soldiers who are out there fighting have families, lovers, friends they want to protect. It's not because they want to get a medal or take the glory and become a famous war hero. (ie like Stick from mospeada) It's in the hope others are kept safe, not being further endangered by snap decisions.

So really although I'm not a pacifist (which means you can't fight back if you are invaded: not good imo) I do sympathise with the peace-fighting characters in SDF:M more than the one in mac7 due to "more shades of grey". There are characters who are younger who question what their older parents are doing (despite being related to them) and want change. Sure the young will fight to protect your family and friends, but only so much that it hopefully leads to something. (ie some long-lasting peace rather than destruction for both sides)

With Basara I never really felt there were the shades of grey from the original macross. Instead of seeing basara slowly grow up as a child and see him gain some kind of life experience as a child about war, or be inspired to use music as a way to bring people together, he just sorta was there. I think it might have been cooler to just have this pilot be mysterious but as others have mentioned, but the price for doing that was we never felt connected to basara in any way that we were with misa or minmay because we got to see them as ordinary people we could relate to. You can't relate to a perfect person. So I view basara as a type of jesus figure trying to preach his view without allowing us to get close to the person before they became a superhero with piloting ability that makes them unstoppable. I think the lack of danger is what made it hard to swallow. Compare that with what kaifun was doing in SDF:M where sometimes although his intentions were good (the cloning chamber episode where the giants steal it) you could see in practice his decisions endangered many lives because he lacks the ability to see it from the military's point of view.

SDF:M didn't just say "one guy is right and here is why". It just showed us a more-balanced view of war imo. But then again: Mac7 wanted to be different and make the bad guys invulnerable to nukes so whatever rules applied to the last war wouldn't be useful against aliens from another dimension. That doesn't mean we should just like it more than SDF:M though, where in SDFM there was a sense of danger and characters with good intentions weren't perfect 100% of the time. If a character must takes risks and can die, they appear more brave for risking their life. But if a character is invicible because he can never die, (aimed at children or just making the show more light-hearted) it's not risky, it's not dangerous, and therefore it's not as "brave". (because the character has started out perfect from the start - robbing us of being allowed to get close to him and connect at the human level)

I agree with a lot of what you say, and disagree with some of it...but I've been searching for Mcross F all over the place, so my eyes are a little glazed from staring at the computer too long, so give me time to formulate a response.

But simply: I don't think Macross 7 is "one guy is right and here's why." If Basara had known he had the power of Anima Spiritia, and knew it was the only thing that could defeat the Protodeviln, then yes, it would have been as you say. But the whole thing seems like a lot of luck, prayer, and duct tape. And Basara was kind of wrong...at first, his music had no influence over the enemy at all. Later, it was used as a weapon (and, strangely, he seemed to be kind of okay with that). Finally, the Protodeviln realized that singing could be used to create Spirita, but I'm not sure Basara ever really moved them the way he wanted to. I can't imagine, for example, the Protedeviln going out and buying a Fire Bomber CD...

Gavil: "Geperunichi, listen! The Beauty of rockin' out!"

Geperunichi: "Yes, and Mylene's fresh bass echoes through my dream like thudding drops of rain on a dry watercolor palette."

Svil: "Keytar spiritia! OOOOOOOOOOO!"

OK, now I'm just getting weird. More later...

[JB0]

But, is that moment of realization necessarily the end-all, be all? Something that everyone needs to come to terms with? There is something to be said for making your enemy realize that you're not just a cardboard cut-out to be shot at, and Basara did go out of his way to make that connection. I hardly think his actions throughout M7 amount to Hikaru sitting in the park sulking. I'd say that goes for singing at street thugs, too.

Good point. I dragged the comparison a bit too far.

It's more like... that clash of ideals and reality is, in some ways, a sign of growing up. Most people at some point have to accept that the universe is NOT a friendly place, and ideals aren't completely compatible with reality.

Personally, I think the point of Basara's ideals could have been presented in a much better, more thought-provoking way than the series wound up managing when the people in charge decided to package it in bright colours, with glowing lights and effects when people start singing. However, I really don't think that makes the idea so easy to dismiss.

My major gripe with the show has always been its presentation. The ideals are respectable and well worth considering, just they were presented in such a cartoony way. I still enjoy the show, but can't help but feel that they could have presented the same core ideals in a much more convincing way, and wove it into a much more intriguing story. So much so, that I suspect Basara's personality and character could have been left pretty much entirely the same, and people may very well have come away with very different feelings about him.

That's actually one of my complaints. The show has a lot of interesting concepts present, but they're stunted by the "monster of the week" and "prefab pop-band promotion" angles.

[Gubaba]

That's actually one of my complaints. The show has a lot of interesting concepts present, but they're stunted by the "monster of the week" and "prefab pop-band promotion" angles.

My feeling for a long time was that M7 had all the ingredients for a great show, they just never quite came together properly. Watching it again recently, I thought it was somewhat better than that.

I like all the band stuff, but I practically lived in the alternative rock clubs in Hollywood in the mid-'90s, so that figures...unfortunately, it also makes me see where M7 is a little...unrealistic.

Monster of the week...? Sure, if it's the same four monsters again and again...

But to continue from where I left off before, I don't think Basara is presented as perfect. He's hard to sympathize with at the beginning, and I think that's deliberate on Kawamori and Amino's part. You don't know what he's doing or why, and when Gamlin tells him to get out of the battle area, any sane viewer will side with Gamlin. When he hits the thugs who shoved Mylene, he blamed her for MAKING him hit them; anyone can see that he's just being self-absorbed. It's not until Basara's singing has some unintended consequences that we're meant to come around to his view.

And again, Basara's power was completely accidental. I'd be interested to see him go up against the Vajra...something tells me they wouldn't listen to his song...

And look at Dynamite 7...he tried to change the poachers' minds, change Graham's mind, and let the White Whale hear his song. He accomplished only one of those goals.

So if you hate Basara, and you think the whole series is promoting his view...well, I don't think it's that simple.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But he saves the entire galaxy singlehandedly and can dodge everything using his guitar to control the valk and never breaks a sweat. Seems almost like a superhero compared to everyone in the military who trained their butts off to become as good as they are.

It's like how some people who don't like macross II because they think it borders on super robot (massive weapon), where in macross 7 the pilot to me is a super pilot. The principle is the same: you get to a point where it's hard to accept for reasons of believability. It just is. The lack of danger, the idea that even the best Qrau pilots (at miria's level of skill) can barely even touch him, just makes him too 'perfect'. Contrast that to what you see in macross plus where guld puts his life on the line to save lives, and dyson almost dies from hypnotic spell and only just survives by the skin of his teeth, it's just not the same thing I want.

SDF:M showed us the danger of flying and fighting and the fear of combat: you knew hikaru could be next like the cannnon fodder next to him. In terms of his personal life, Hikaru just didn't seem as sure of himself and the reasons for why he was even doing what he was doing. Only up until friends died did you sense a stronger conviction for putting meaning and a sense of duty into the fighting and this is the point where he "grew" as a character.

Plus had pilots that were cocky and knew what they wanted, but who got close to death showing off. You knew there was a sense of danger despite the fact that majority of time the pilot were in control of the planes. This need to push the envelope was what makes them interesting to watch. Maybe you secretly hope one of them dies or they crash or something like watching a dangerous circus stunt?

Macross 7 just didn't allows us to see any kind of threat since basara is better than the best pilots the military has to offer and there is never any real history of the origins of the character. It's that one thing that doesn't allow normal people to relate well to him as a person, other than what his political belief is. Yes yes maybe that was the point: make all of us the audience, actually think. It might be original in the same way that gundam wing was original for breaking the mold and allowing gundam to be more flashy and focus less on "psychic power" element of the shows. But it just isn't what I like as much as what the original macross had. (ie being a fly on the wall and seeing characters gain experience and mature over time vs just have super abilities and no past. Like a mysterious recluse who nobody knows anything about and seems to just have amazing skills which aren't explained)

Edited April 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gubaba]

Very true. In fact, I'd go a little further and say that there are very few battle scenes of any intensity at all in mac7 ("Nightmarish Invasion" was an exception, and even then, it never really seemed like Sound Force was in any danger).

But watching Mac7 for the mecha scenes is like watching Fist of the North Star for the love stories.

[VFTF1]

But...you didn't like the music in Plus??? Wow...okay, I take it all back. you're just weird.

I generally don't like the electronic/techno scene - the only positive aspect I see stemming from electro/techno is that it makes for good elevator music; eventually good long-distance-car-travel-music...under certain..err...specific...umm...circumstances

But in general - true - I am wierd. I am far more enamored of 80s glam rock and pop rock, and so naturally I like Minmey's sentimental pop songs, and totally love Basara's angsty emotional glam rock (it is, in the end, pretty much glam rock)

Not some other comments on what has been written by others:

1. Misa's Dad and The Judgment About War/Peace and Negotiating from strength:

Misa's Dad stated that the Grand Cannon was capable of destrying ten thousand ships in one fell swoop. The Zendradi fleet supposedly numered into the one million range; perhaps even "millions" - albeit I don't recall a more precise figure being given. 10 thousand out of a million is not significant - unless the Grand Cannon could be fired multiple times. Perhaps it could; but given how long it takes to charge the darned thing - the remaining Zendradi ships would (and did) have ample time to destroy the Earth's surface.

I personally think that the biggest strategic blunder that the military made was not taking advantage of Unnamed Science Dude Who Was Called Lang In The Series That Cannot Be Named's very bizarre invention: the omni-dimmensional barrier (outgrowth of the Pinpoint Barrier). This defensive mechanism clearly was capable of resisting multiple Zendradi onslaught's, and even had the capacity to explode OUTWARDS destroying the attackers.

Furthermore, the barrier used some strange sci-fi wonkery as its' energy source - and this theme was never expanded upon - though I presume that studies on the subject continued far into the series. Sadly, once the relatively less scientifically important discovery that the Zendradi have human DNA was made, even Unnamed Science Dude seemed to drop his interest with the Fold Residue Power Source and focus on the anthropology of the human species and the anthropological/psychological foundations of war.

Imagine if the military were able to develop an omni-dimmensional barrier for the entire Earth? Or at least for cities and military installations? This is not far fetched: after all; once the principle is established - size becomes relevent only insofar as the larger the size, the larger the necessary power source.

Why no one thought of this; indeed - why no one even considered building a preventive defense system alongside the construction of the Grand Cannon is beyond me. Was it a case of lack of resources? More likely - lack of imagnation.

In fact - a functional defensive barrier would have accomplished far more than the Grand Cannon. Imagine if Boldoza ordered his fleet to pummel the earth and after firing - he sam that not a mark had been made on the planet's surface?

That in itself would have been a stupendous show of strength - and if it were followed up by a shot from the Grand Cannon - the Zendradi would have been running to another galaxy and thinking "never doubt the legends! never doubt the legends!"

So - this, in my view - is the primary strategic deficiency commited by UN Spacey in the sun up and during the duration of Space War I.

They built variable valkyrie to deal with giant aliens and space warfare, they rebuilt he Macross and perfected Reaction Weaponry, they did a number of things right - but they completely and totally left the Earth's defense system lacking.

And why didn't anyone on the Macross think to propose to UN Spacey the the omni-dimmensional barrier technology should have been developed further?

I'm not saying it would have worked - but the subject seemed to never have even been raised.

2. Basara as a Too Perfect Character:

Couldn't disagree more. Everybody HATES Basara in the show; everybody is annoyed with him - even Mylene can't stand him; even biker chick initially can't stand him. Nobody likes him - not even the Mountains will move for him. The only person who is even remotely sympathetic is...oh...what's the big Keyboard Player Dude's name? And possibly Vizifizisufususus (can never remember her name either)...

But throughout the series Basara is disliked... and this means he is not perfect; at least not in the sense of the show trying to push him onto us as some ideal... Macross 7 is NOT a work of Basara propaganda - and I agree with the statement that Kawamori probably deliberately made Basara unlikable - artists are generally subversive of normative values and breed antypathy - M7 does a good job of showing this.

I think what bothers people about Basara is not so much that he's "perfect" as that he's stubborn - and very self-confident.

3. Macross Plus:

Don't get me wrong; I like this OVA. I just have the misfortune of having the dubbed english version and the monotone voice work really grates one me... need to just get the subbed version and revel in Japense linguistic goodness...

I really like the plot set up, I like how the show is very distant from SDFM and DYRL. I like how it DOES NOT feature some blatant "Return of the Evil Zendradi" or "New Alien Menace" theme. It pazs homage to SDFM-DYRL by featuring a human and a Zendradi as the main antagonists of the film; and by having the YF-21 be such a distinct attempt at incorporating Zendradi technology into UN Spacey hardware.

But other than the music - which I personally don't like and find utterly boring - there are some things which I find fault with:

a) The female leads: boooorrrriiiinnnggggg. The Bridge Bunny is just too much of an air head, and not in the cute way that Shammy was an air head. She is an airhead in the "I was neglected by the writers" way. She gets no development; has no background story, and the only times she shines is when she yells at Mune that Dyson knew from the beginning she was behind Sharon, and the time she tells Dyson she's sorry and won't force him to be with her; that no one "owns him" - she comes across as really intelligent and caring in those scenes - but in general Lucy (that's her name!) is under-developed.

Mune - oh boy... well... Mune is just totally a sad predicament if there ever was one. I guess it's a twisted play off of "what would Minmey have been like if she'd quit singing and sold out?" --- but the thing I can't understand is WHY Mune quit singing? What exactly happened?

I mean - she obviously sings very well; she has talent and ability so... I would have really liked to have scene the development of her cynicism. Did someone hurt her? Did a record deal fall through? Did her career false-start? Was she so emotionally distraught over what happened with Guld and Isamu that she couldn't find the passion in her heart t sing about love?

Then agian - I guess what I'm basically complaining about here is that MPlus was never a 36 episode series

I guess it's just all very subdued - a subdued film...

VFTF1

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

but the thing I can't understand is WHY Mune quit singing? What exactly happened?

If I were to guess:

Either it was the attempted "rape", or she rose up in status in the world and let the childish dream of being a great singer go away due to thinking she must "move on" from all the bad memories tha she had 7 years ago. Sort of like when someone moves house because they just broke up from an ex and doesn't want any reminders of that person around so they move away to escape. But dyson's interpretation of that is that she is a quiter who gives up too easily (she should fight for her dream to the end) which is fair enough since she was the one that started crying and whining about how her dreams could never come true and the that boys should grow up and stop fighting because "it's childish". (I guess the point was she wanted to put them both through a guilt trip so that they should feel grateful for having their dream come true but hers didn't)

Dyson's reaction was completely justified imo. Because why should he and guld be her emotional crutch? At the start of the ova she was gloating about how she had succeeded in the world. Then she went all shinji at the end. If she wanted to move on, she should have confronted the past and continued on with her dreams as if nothing changed, not run away from it.

Oh and to the mention of basara as perfect:

I mean in the sense that although he is hated, the idea is that he was given a super duper valk, is allowed to go into the battlefield, can pilot a valk with a guitar, not get killed or come close to it, and not have any fear in such a dangerous environment. My reaction is: I'd be scared to fly directly into the battlefield all by myself but basara is like a super hero. No ace can touch him. Where did all this skill come from? At least in macross Zero you see Shin gradually come to grips with the philosophy of the valkyrie and get better over the course of the 4 episode OVA. With Basara he is invulnerable. Even max had to break a sweat in his one-on-one duel with miria in DYRL. Just the way it was presented: it takes away the danger of the enemy and makes them cartoony villains like Wile E Coyote. (ie we think they are just incompetent and stupid and that's why they fail.) But Basara is just the best pilot in the galaxy such that he can take on a whole group of Qrau, yet the military aren't even a little bit curious about how he can be such a good pilot? The show never delves into the past in much depth, because they like the idea of keeping the character mysterious. But this comes at the expense of being hard to relate to since he can do anything. No need to invent reaction weapons, build gunpods, research new tech when you have a super hero who can do everything.

Edited April 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[VFTF1]

Ok, this thing about Basara as a super-too-good-to-be-true pilot:

1. His friend Keyboard Man is an ex-ace pilot from the Pink Peckers brigade who, after his friend was killed in battle, became depressed and then met Basara and was moved by Basara's determination to foster peace and love. So Keyboard Man sort of became Basara's Sempai; and taught him how to fly Valkyrie; and also had the military develop Basara's special Kai Fire Valkyrie.

So it is not a 'mystery' - Basara got his skills as a pilot from being trained by an ace pilot; and Basara's Kai Fire Valkyrie is part of a military project - Basra just has a knack for not really following military protocol and using the Fire Valkyrie as he sees fit; without coordinating with the military.

2. Basara does find himself in danger on numerous occasions. The most famous one is when he is forced by circumstances to go against his grain and fire a missile in order to save himself and his Valkyrie from certain destruction.

I think the stereotype that people have of Basara (the negative one) comes from focusing too heavily on the first few episodes which could indeed give the negative impression its' weight.

VFTF1

[JB0]

I personally think that the biggest strategic blunder that the military made was not taking advantage of Unnamed Science Dude Who Was Called Lang In The Series That Cannot Be Named's very bizarre invention: the omni-dimmensional barrier (outgrowth of the Pinpoint Barrier). This defensive mechanism clearly was capable of resisting multiple Zendradi onslaught's, and even had the capacity to explode OUTWARDS destroying the attackers.

In exchange, you can't attack from behind your shield.

Not explicitly stated, but look at the end of Space War 1.

They bust into the core of the flagship, full of thousands of zentradi ships, and they wait until AFTER the cloud of thermonuclear death is clear of the ship to activate the shield?

I'd bet that it's a 2-way shield, and they would've been trapped in a bubble with a swarm of angry nukes if they hadn't waited those extra seconds.

Sadly, once the relatively less scientifically important discovery that the Zendradi have human DNA was made, even Unnamed Science Dude seemed to drop his interest with the Fold Residue Power Source...

Did they? It seems to me they spent a lot of time and effort miniaturizing the pin-point barrier system for fighter usage, as well as adding it to all of their warships.

Imagine if the military were able to develop an omni-dimmensional barrier for the entire Earth? Or at least for cities and military installations? This is not far fetched: after all; once the principle is established - size becomes relevent only insofar as the larger the size, the larger the necessary power source.

And you're talking about a barrier orders of magnitude larger than the Macross' for protecting a planet.

Assuming a linear scaling ratio, surface area will be absurdly expensive, and if power scales with volume...

If it doesn't scale linearly, things could be quite a bit easier(most of the cost is in initial setup, and size of the barrier is largely irrelevant) or much more difficult(an given increase in barrier size requires a much larger, possibly even expontential, power increase).

There could also be absolute upper limits on shield size. Given we don't know what sort of physics it operates under, we can't say for sure. As an example... hypothetically, you can keep adding particles to an atomic nucleus to make bigger and better atoms to infinity.

But past a certain point, the nucleus expands beyond the effective reach of the strong force, and starts spontaneously fissioning. It's why radioactive elements exist(But not radioactive isotopes of stable elements. That's a different effect.), and why very large atoms have half-lives measured in fractions of a second and will never be observed outside of a lab.

We also don't know how barrier capacity scales.

We know that the barrier deflects some energy and stores the rest, and that if it absorbs too much, it goes kerblooie with spectacular results. It could just be that the facilities needed to store the sort of energy a planetary bombardment generates are prohibitively large. Or it could be that all barriers have the same energy absorption, and that a planetary barrier would rapidly overload just from solar radiation.

If everything was as simple as "build it small, then make it bigger," the world would be a lot different.

See the robot.

Aibo, Asimo, and Robosapien are all highly articulated robots that move fairly reliably. And if you scale them up, they collapse under their own weight because volume(and hence mass) cubes while surface area(including the cross-section of load-bearing structures) squares.

Why no one thought of this; indeed - why no one even considered building a preventive defense system alongside the construction of the Grand Cannon is beyond me. Was it a case of lack of resources? More likely - lack of imagnation.

Or a lack of knowledge?

Remember, the entire THEORY for the barrier system was developed after the fold accident.

In fact - a functional defensive barrier would have accomplished far more than the Grand Cannon. Imagine if Boldoza ordered his fleet to pummel the earth and after firing - he sam that not a mark had been made on the planet's surface?

That in itself would have been a stupendous show of strength - and if it were followed up by a shot from the Grand Cannon - the Zendradi would have been running to another galaxy and thinking "never doubt the legends! never doubt the legends!"

Assuming it can hold up to a significant bombardment instead of failing instantly, and can be energized rapidly enough to stop a mass assault.

So - this, in my view - is the primary strategic deficiency commited by UN Spacey in the sun up and during the duration of Space War I.

They built variable valkyrie to deal with giant aliens and space warfare, they rebuilt he Macross and perfected Reaction Weaponry, they did a number of things right - but they completely and totally left the Earth's defense system lacking.

They had an orbital defense fleet. It got raped. They also had several anti-fleet cannons under construction on the Earth and the Moon. Only one was completed, and it served it's people well before it went kerblooie.

Complaining they didn't create a functional planet-sized version of a device that wouldn't even be PROTOTYPED until almost a year after the Macross was launched, and a mere two months before the final attack on the planet, is a bit unfair.

And why didn't anyone on the Macross think to propose to UN Spacey the the omni-dimmensional barrier technology should have been developed further?

I'm not saying it would have worked - but the subject seemed to never have even been raised.

The fact that they DID continue using pin-point barriers, and expanded their usage, suggests that the PPB is just plain better.

Also of note: The Macross 7 has both PPB and ODB systems.

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati...ross/index.html

The ODB was never used in animation, despite it's greater coverage.

Of course, the hazard a barrier overload would pose to the other ships in the fleet(especially the unarmed and vulnerable colony ships) could be considered a significant mitigating factor.

[Ork_dreadnought]

Ok, this thing about Basara as a super-too-good-to-be-true pilot:

1. His friend Keyboard Man is an ex-ace pilot from the Pink Peckers brigade who, after his friend was killed in battle, became depressed and then met Basara and was moved by Basara's determination to foster peace and love. So Keyboard Man sort of became Basara's Sempai; and taught him how to fly Valkyrie; and also had the military develop Basara's special Kai Fire Valkyrie.

So it is not a 'mystery' - Basara got his skills as a pilot from being trained by an ace pilot; and Basara's Kai Fire Valkyrie is part of a military project - Basra just has a knack for not really following military protocol and using the Fire Valkyrie as he sees fit; without coordinating with the military.

2. Basara does find himself in danger on numerous occasions. The most famous one is when he is forced by circumstances to go against his grain and fire a missile in order to save himself and his Valkyrie from certain destruction.

I think the stereotype that people have of Basara (the negative one) comes from focusing too heavily on the first few episodes which could indeed give the negative impression its' weight.

VFTF1

I've gotta say, you aren't really pulling in any converts with that line of arguement. Simply saying that he was trained by a good pilot, doesn't really explain how he is an exceptional one. Sure, I'd imagine he got good training, but this is a orphan that spent his formative years up in mountains. The last anime character that had such upbringing had difficultly with anything technical (and turned into a giant ape every full moon). Basara breaks one of the key genre conventions of Mecha shows, which isthat any character should not be excellent from episode 1, there should be a learning curve. If a character has god mode on from episode 1, its very difficult to empathise with him, or be impressed by his feats in battle. Look at the Gundam SEED contraversy, sure it was popular, but half the fanbase was ripping it to shreads because the characters were so plot sheilded. If Basara had, for example, had a near miss in his first flight, we might have found his talent easier to stomach. Instead he just flies in, shoots a few speaker pods and sings. Nobody gets a bullet anywhere near him. This does not change.

VFTF1, either you need to try a different line of arguement, or you need to accept that Basara has plot armour so thick you could plate the hull of the Macross with it.

Edited April 5, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Gubaba]

If a character has god mode on from episode 1, its very difficult to empathise with him, or be impressed by his feats in battle.

*cough* Max. *cough*

(I agree with the rest of your post. Basara's skills are puzzling, to say the least.)

[Ork_dreadnought]

Max wasn't the lead character though, so he gains partial exception (though he is the Jammiest man in mecha).

Edited April 5, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[VFTF1]

Basara breaks one of the key genre conventions of Mecha shows, which isthat any character should not be excellent from episode 1, there should be a learning curve.

Yeah - I was also going to say Max - and actually, let me linger on Max a bit. Max is "perfect" - yet he is not hated for it like Basara is hated for his "perfection" - why?

I think the reason is because Max was very humble, and a gentleman. His manner was non-threatening, he didn't brag, he didn't exude a "know it all" demeanor. When Minmey rushes to Kaifun after the big fight in "Kung Fu Dandy" and yells "Wow Kaifun you were great!" - Hikaru is about to say something and Max just gives him a look that says "shut it!" and Hikaru backs off. Because a gentleman is always classy. Max is classy. Max doesn't even have to say anything; he is that classy. He communicates with subtle facial expressions.

At no point in time does Max threaten anyone's self esteem. He doesn't judge people, he doesn't have "problems" - he's perfect in a non-threatening way - his perfection does not make other people feel... faulty.

Basara's perfection makes everybody feel faulty.

He is a better pilot than the military pilots and never ceases to demonstrate it to them.

He is a better strategist than the military strategists and never ceases to rub it in.

He is a better singer than Mylene, and never ceases to rub it in.

He is a better lover than the bald guy with no eye-former Lieutenant what's his name and never cease to rub it in

He is a better roughneck/dare devil than the dare devil/rough neck biker chicks and rubs it in

He is just better than anybody and everybody - and he lets them know ALL the time.

In fact - he is so great that he doesn't say "excuse me, would you like to listen to my music?" - he doesn't, like Minmey, wait for the enemy to overhear a song and explain that that song has had such a grand effect on them - no - he says LISTEN TO MY MUSIC! because it's so great and true.

I would hate Basara if not for one small problem...

he IS great. His music IS great. He IS a great pilot. He IS right most of the time.

It sucks - but the sooner you open your eyes to it, you realize that Basara is ..well... great

VFTF1