How do you feel about Basara?

[VF5SS]

Fleet of the Strongest Women was awesome. Basara turned all the Meltrans into giant groupies with his voice. De culture! Basara~!

[Necron_99]

::ignores Basara slander posts:: Infinate votes for Basara rules!

Fleet of the Strongest Women was awesome. Basara turned all the Meltrans into giant groupies with his voice. De culture! Basara~!

To be Bomber!

[chrono]

Ummm.... The current cartoons ARE cel-shaded, at least from the shots I've seen.

Cel shading is a technique to make 3D polygonal models look hand-drawn. NOT the term for hand-drawn animation.

Ummm did you read what you wrote? A person coloring the cel IS cel shading. It's a single technique used by both 2D & 3D, thus the name carry over for the technique.

It's no coincidence that Basara's birthday (and mine, btw ) is August 15th. August 15th is the date Japan surrendered in World War II and is often referred to by Japanese people as "end of war day".

peace

Which only reinforces the fact, along with the little music video that shows him traveling on a still ruined Earth that clearly helped him form his VP, that he is strictly anti-war. But he is so anti-war that he would just as soon as watch everyone kill themselves than protect anyone or choose a side beyond his own, and if he's forced to he blames others for his own actions (pros & cons to that). Overall I don't know whether the Basara figure was a condemnation of both the youth of the time for their shallowness, a condemnation of the nation on the whole for it's anti-war mind set, or a glorification of both! But he is a flat and more or less boring character when you pull out the whole 'super-powers' bit.

But if you toss out Basara's "meh!" and watch the rest of M7 it's ok, but not awesome.

Edited October 14, 2007 by chrono

[JB0]

Ummm did you read what you wrote? A person coloring the cel IS cel shading. It's a single technique used by both 2D & 3D, thus the name carry over for the technique.

Yes, I DID read what I wrote. The current cartoons are 3D-rendered(at least the bots are). There is no contradiction.

As for them being the same technique...

I'm sorry, but hand-coloring a 2D image and coding a program to perform lighting calculations on a polygonal model are VERY far removed.

They are, at best, 2 wholely unrelated techniques that generate similar visual effects.

As for the name...Shader is a commonly-used term in 3D graphics, and refers to a the portion of the rendered responsible for coloring the image as opposed to deciding what can be seen. There's all sorts of different shaders, all of which create distinctly different visual effects.

The name originates because it is a shader that creates the look of cel animation. Hence, cel shader. Which has been turned into cel-shading to describe renders that use cel shaders.

The name is not because they've created a software implementation of painting a cel. It's because they have a similar final appearance to cel animation.

[Radd]

I agree with one of the earlier posts, the important question about Basara is, o you understand his POV?

Judging him by typical standards of how well crafted a character he is, Basara falls short. He has his flaws, and while these flaws are tempered by those around him, you never really get the sense that he's changed by them so much as held in check. I truly wanted to deck him whenever he would blame someone else for his own actions, his single biggest flaw in my opinion. There was room for the writers to allow Basara to grow, but it just seems they never took advantage of it.

That said, I do think he had some very good ideas, and believe is position is more or less correct, especially when tempered by Ray and the rest.

Gamlin was my favourite character in the series largely in part because he was such a dimwit at the beginning of the series, but he grew out of that and becomes a more complete character by the end of the show.

On a side note, the term "cel shading" existed before CG cel shaders. It's long been used among anime fans, art school students, and others to describe any high-contrast shading which resembles that used in 2D animation, though it's more appropriate when used to describe a CG shader, because when someone does such high-contrast solid shading in illustration or other work they're not even necessarily trying to emulate a 2D animation look, but the CG shader is most definitely trying for precisely that.

[Lonewolf]

He's selfish, self-centered and damn annoying, but no one can deny the fact that he's one hell of a pilot.

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Lonewolf

[Zinjo]

He's selfish, self-centered and damn annoying, but no one can deny the fact that he's one hell of a pilot.

EDIT: Spelling.

Yeah, I don't think many would be able to pilot an extremely complicated variable fighter with a "guitar"!!!

[Exsedol]

Yeah, I don't think many would be able to pilot an extremely complicated variable fighter with a "guitar"!!

Ahhh haha I totaly forgot about that crap. That's another reason he sucks hehe

[chrono]

He has his flaws, and while these flaws are tempered by those around him, you never really get the sense that he's changed by them so much as held in check.

Contained and managed... Very well put!

JB0, You are confused. Yes there are shaders or materials (varies between programs) called Toon Shaders currently now called Cel Shaders, but it's only a name so the user can more easily understand it's function and even then the name varies between programs. It's kind of a bastardized throw-back term to tradional Cel work, but the term is so widely used now it covers much of anime styled work and can no longer be said that it belongs to a singular technique. Like many traditional animation terms it's been shorted.

The outline of the drawing is inked or photocopied onto the cel, and gouache or a similar type of paint is used on the reverse sides of the cels to add colors in the appropriate shades.

I did mis-state something though. It's not a technique, but an artistic style. I thank Radd for reminding me of that.

Edited October 15, 2007 by chrono

[JB0]

JB0, You are confused. Yes there are shaders or materials (varies between programs) called Toon Shaders currently now called Cel Shaders, but it's only a name so the user can more easily understand it's function and even then the name varies between programs. It's kind of a bastardized throw-back term to tradional Cel work, but the term is so widely used now it covers much of anime styled work and can no longer be said that it belongs to a singular technique. Like many traditional animation terms it's been shorted.

Shading may have been a traditional animation term, but "cel shading" never was. It would've been redundant.

You've failed to make a compelling argument for why I'm wrong. Just stated your opinion as fact. Which is par for the course.

BTW, regardless of what the program calls it, shading is the traditional term in 3D graphics, as evidenced by "flat shading" and "Gouraud shading". And it winds up being drawn by the video card's shader hardware(assuming it is reasonably modern and uses the graphics accelerator).

I did mis-state something though. It's not a technique, but an artistic style. I thank Radd for reminding me of that.

Which TOTALLY changes your argument, whether you realize it or not.

In the field of computer graphics, there are many different techniques that can create a given style. I admit the 2 are more closely related in hand-drawing, but they're still far from synonymous.

[mikeszekely]

I do understand Basara's point of view... and I find it to be hopelessly naive. If you agree with Basara, I'm sure that makes him more likeable, but as I said before, the mark of a good character is that they're dynamic. They're affected and changed by the events around them as the story unfolds, for better or worse. This is why Gamlin was such a good character... at the beginning of the series, he was concerned with being an elite and was irritated by Basara's presence in battle, but he learned to take pride in any duty that meant protecting others, he learned that the military wasn't always right, and he learned to believe in Basara's song. On the other hand, characters don't get much more static than Basara. I could accept the power of song from Gamlin's point of view, but I see the series as reinforcing Basara's naiveity by reinforcing his ideals.

[Gubaba]

I do understand Basara's point of view... and I find it to be hopelessly naive. If you agree with Basara, I'm sure that makes him more likeable, but as I said before, the mark of a good character is that they're dynamic. They're affected and changed by the events around them as the story unfolds, for better or worse. This is why Gamlin was such a good character... at the beginning of the series, he was concerned with being an elite and was irritated by Basara's presence in battle, but he learned to take pride in any duty that meant protecting others, he learned that the military wasn't always right, and he learned to believe in Basara's song. On the other hand, characters don't get much more static than Basara. I could accept the power of song from Gamlin's point of view, but I see the series as reinforcing Basara's naiveity by reinforcing his ideals.

But Basara DOES change...as the show goes on, he becomes more Basara-y.

[VFTF1]

Yeah - and how Basara changes can be seen in his music.

You just need to listen to his songs more to understand the changes he goes through. His changes are not as superficial as Gamlens but rather deep and metaphysical. To uncover them - you can't look to his words and actions - look to his music. It's all there. Notice how his music gets more touching, more personal and more lovely as the series progresses. Just compare "Planet Dance" (his first song against the Protodevilin) to "Try Again" (with which he ultimately converts the Protodevilin) - huge huge change taken place there.

You just need to open yourself to the love and joy of Basara's music and then you will find inner peace and true tranquility.

VFTF1

[Nexx Stalker]

Best Macross character ever.

[taksraven]

He's just a character dude, so therefore not real, so who cares?

I am sure that there are plenty of idiots worse than him in reality anyway.

Don't Panic

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Basara is kind of real insofar a Fukimori exists and sings...

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

He's just a character dude, so therefore not real, so who cares?

I am sure that there are plenty of idiots worse than him in reality anyway.

Don't Panic

Taksraven

Damn, no wonder he never answered my fan letters...

[Alex]

I remember seeing a newspaper headline with words to the effect of "Basra Seeks Peace" and for a split second I saw an extra "a" in there.

[JB0]

I remember seeing a newspaper headline with words to the effect of "Basra Seeks Peace" and for a split second I saw an extra "a" in there.

Well, he DOES...

[Ork_dreadnought]

At the risk of offending people, I'd say there's basically nothing wrong with basara, if only he'd been a supporting character rather than the lead. He's difficult to empathise with, often two-dimensional and has extremely obvious plot armour. The idea of a musicain going into combat to stop the fighting is both a brave and satirical move, and would have been brilliant as comic relief. As it stands, Basara just seems like a male version of Minmay, but with Kaifun's politics, who we are meant to acknowledge as a hero, a concept that I have difficulty with.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Radd]

If you mean Kaifun's views on the military and violence I can kinda see where someone who didn't watch much of the series might get that impression but they're pretty dissimilar if you so much as scratch the surface.

[Gubaba]

If you mean Kaifun's views on the military and violence I can kinda see where someone who didn't watch much of the series might get that impression but they're pretty dissimilar if you so much as scratch the surface.

I agree. Kaifun was not a pacifist; he was angry, violent, and self-absorbed, and his unspoken motto was "Whatever it is, I'm against it." He was against authority just for the sake of being against it, and luxurated in feelings of persecution.

Basara, on the other hand, puts his money where his mouth is, and strives to be consistent in all aspects of his life. Granted, sometimes he fails and ends up punching someone or launching a missle, and he has an annoying tendancy to blame others for his own mistakes, but there is none of Kaifun's hypocricy and opportunism in him.

And, speaking of opportunism, we all know that Kaifun was quick to jump on Basara's bandwagon by managing the completely execrable Fire Bomber American...make of that what you will.

[Zinjo]

I agree. Kaifun was not a pacifist; he was angry, violent, and self-absorbed, and his unspoken motto was "Whatever it is, I'm against it." He was against authority just for the sake of being against it, and luxurated in feelings of persecution.

Basara, on the other hand, puts his money where his mouth is, and strives to be consistent in all aspects of his life. Granted, sometimes he fails and ends up punching someone or launching a missle, and he has an annoying tendancy to blame others for his own mistakes, but there is none of Kaifun's hypocricy and opportunism in him.

And, speaking of opportunism, we all know that Kaifun was quick to jump on Basara's bandwagon by managing the completely execrable Fire Bomber American...make of that what you will.

Really? Kaifun managed that group?

I had no idea!

[UN Spacy]

Usually Basara and M7 gets a bad rep from the casual audience outside Macrossworld.

You wouldn't believe how many remarks I've seen about Frontier NOT being another M7.

[Gubaba]

Really? Kaifun managed that group?

I had no idea!

Yep. Apparently, that's covered in the comic that came with the album...I have no intention of buying it, so I'll never know for sure...

But there's also a reference here:

http://www.macross.co.uk/77077/English/Engcred.asp

Usually Basara and M7 gets a bad rep from the casual audience outside Macrossworld.

You wouldn't believe how many remarks I've seen about Frontier NOT being another M7.

That's to be expected. I think both fans and detractors will agree that it's a very unusual show which requires a large investment of time to watch, the first clutch of episodes are quite repetitive, the overall plot unfolds slowly, and the animation is generally just passable (even considering that it's almost fourteen years old). It's not a show for mech-addicts, the romance is almost invisible, and if you don't like "Planet Dance," it's almost a certainty you won't get past episode eight.

I like M7 okay, but I had to work at it (and I certainly don't like it as much as I wanted to like it), and if I hadn't already been a big Macross fan, I wouldn't have given it a second look.

[Ork_dreadnought]

I agree. Kaifun was not a pacifist; he was angry, violent, and self-absorbed, and his unspoken motto was "Whatever it is, I'm against it." He was against authority just for the sake of being against it, and luxurated in feelings of persecution.

I don't think that's entirely fair, being anti-military was a valid viewpoint before and after SW1, and he did spend two years putting up with Minmay . Basara is in his own way, just as pigheaded, but he doesn't (as far as I'm aware) have an excuse for it.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Macross007]

Barasa rules indeed. Maybe he is selfish, but at least he has a lot more heart than some haters.

[Gubaba]

I don't think that's entirely fair, being anti-military was a valid viewpoint before and after SW1, and he did spend two years putting up with Minmay . Basara is in his own way, just as pigheaded, but he doesn't (as far as I'm aware) have an excuse for it.

Oh, it's always a valid viewpoint, and I think Kaifun says quite a number of important things...but that doesn't make him any less of a slug. Obviously, a lot of the survivors in the last nine epsiodes of SDFM are recpetive to his views, but his intentions aren't terribly good, and he certainly doesn't practice what he preaches.

But hey, the military on earth DID botch things badly in Space War I. Their belief in the superority of the Grand Cannon is exactly the sort of naive thinking that some accuse Basara of.

Speaking of Basara, I think someone else here mentioned that the second Macross 7 Plus episode shows him walking around on the ruined earth. I think if one were already inclined towards an anti-war stance, that would clinch it. Well, that and watching DYRL...

[JB0]

Oh, it's always a valid viewpoint, and I think Kaifun says quite a number of important things...but that doesn't make him any less of a slug. Obviously, a lot of the survivors in the last nine epsiodes of SDFM are recpetive to his views, but his intentions aren't terribly good, and he certainly doesn't practice what he preaches.

But hey, the military on earth DID botch things badly in Space War I. Their belief in the superority of the Grand Cannon is exactly the sort of naive thinking that some accuse Basara of.

I actually find this a HIGHLY unfair argument.

The zentradi are established as having a long, proud tradition of sterilizing any planet they come across that has "culture."

They were not shown as being inclined to negotiation once the cultural contamination became obvious.

MAYBE the war could've been avoided had the Macross not been rebuilt, or not been booby-trapped.

But as things happened, the military didn't really botch anything. In fact, throwing the Macross to the wolves was a sound strategical move. The enemy's interest WAS solely in the battleship, as far as anyone could tell. When the Macross left Earth, the aliens followed it, and expressed no interest whatsoever in the planet until the Macross returned. And when it left again, the aliens left with it.

...

And then they signed a peace treaty with the Macross hours before their boss came to blow everyone to hell.

Certainly, the military's immediate dismissal of Misa's first-hand experience with the alien fleet was poor judgement, especially since the viewer knows she was 100% accurate.

But there WASN'T any evidence they had a fleet the size of her report, and eyewitness accounts ARE prone to extreme variability.

Especially when the planetary sterilization was a planned demonstration. That was VERY easy to fake.

Their later observations of the fleet during their escape are disrupted and colored by their attempts to escape.

It is NOT what you would call ironclad evidence.

Also note that by this point in time, the spies are already aboard the Macross, beginning the chain of cultural contamination that will ultimately lead to the decision to sterilize the planet. Things had already started rolling at this point, and the ultimate conclusion was arguably inevitable.

And this is only tangental, but... for all the military's pride and arrogance, the Grand Cannon WAS relevant to humanity's victory. The allied fleet advances towards the zentradi flagship through the path cleared by the Grand Cannon, sparing them a large number of ship-to-ship battles.

Kaifun is an apeface. Before the end of the war, he blames the military for the Macross' situation. Which is only partially accurate, given the Macross fired an automated attack to start the war.

AFTER the war, he acts like the military wandered into the Zentradi fleet, punched Bodol in the nose, and laughed at him.

In point of fact, the military had ALREADY DECIDED not to start a fight with aliens when Britai first showed up.

The first shot is beyond human control. The second shot is by the zentradi. After that, opportunities for discussion and a peaceful resolution to the conflict are surprisingly limited, especially since the aliens spend most of their time on the other side of the solar system.

Notable typos fixed during the production of this post:

A continued traditional confusion of Kamjin and Kaifun.

Britai = Britain

[Gubaba]

I mostly agree with you that it would have been impossible for the earth forces to fight off the Zentradi...too many variables, too much new information about the Zentradi, a changed plan on the part of Bodolza...but the fact remains that the Earth forces were completely unprepared for the threat, even after ten years of getting ready. The attempt to save the earth failed. Hence, it was botched. All the reasons WHY it was botched are good, logical reasons, but the earth was still fried. And I still think that Admiral Hayase was naive to reject his daughter's information. He simply didn't WANT to believe it.

And yes, Kaifun is an idiot (Kamjin is too, of course). It's one thing to be against war, it's another to assume that everyone in the military is a bloodthirsty monster. before the end of Space War I, he was a jerk. After Space War I, he was probably drunk most of the time, so of course most of what he says makes no sense.

Either way, he has nothing in common with Basara, which was my original point.

[Ork_dreadnought]

And yes, Kaifun is an idiot (Kamjin is too, of course). It's one thing to be against war, it's another to assume that everyone in the military is a bloodthirsty monster. before the end of Space War I, he was a jerk. After Space War I, he was probably drunk most of the time, so of course most of what he says makes no sense.

Either way, he has nothing in common with Basara, which was my original point.

Except, that he is also a pacifist that people widely dislike. That was sorta my original point about Basara. He was a muscian with comparable emoutional maturity to Minmay, but unlike Minmay he had strong political views, hence Kaifun. Another similarity between Kaifun and Basara is that they are both surprisingly (unbelievably?) good at good at defensive combat, Kaifun being a talented martial artist, Basara having some piloting skills that put him on par with the best of the fleet.

For a while I've been toying with the theory that the three lead characters in M7 are the same archetypes as the original, just shifted around. So Gamlin = Misa, Basara = Minmay and Hikaru = Mylene. Perhaps this is why M7 gets picked on so much. Would Macross have been as popular if Minmay was the lead? Its something interesting to chew on.

[Radd]

I really don't see Basara as being as emotionally immature as Minmay. Socially immature? Sure. Emotionally? Not nearly to the extent of Minmay. Also, you're kinda delving into vague, broad-brush comparisons. You could say any number of Macross characters are like Kaifun with that reasoning.

Basara as a character is very dedicated to his ideals, no matter how tough things get.

Kaifun as a character was pretty much dedicated to himself, everything else could be compromised.

As I said, there is a similarity, however it is very superficial.

I really had little issue with Basara in M7, I think the show would have been just fine with him as-is, most of my problems with the show lay elsewhere.

[Star Dragon]

I voted Basara Rules... Yes I often found him annpoying, and at times I hated him, but overall he was RIGHT! I just wish we could see more character development.

Spot on about Gamlin, he was probably the best fleshed out character in general the series ever produced!!!

I'm taking great liberties in my fic with Basara, and how just cause he was right once, doesn't mean he can sing cumbaya and solve every problem till the end of time non-violently...

Also I agree about the depth of his music, however it was limited in the series.

Most of the exposure was: Seventh moon, Planet Dance, Tosugeki(?) Love Heart, Try Again, On the Wind, and Submarine Street.

(not including Mylene's songs)

I doubt most people have heard:

Starlight Dream

Holy Lonely Light

Diamond Calling

Heart & Soul

Remember 16

New Frontier (urge to make a fake Macross-F video! He he...)

and most awesome of all Angel Voice! (I'm saving this for a special end story arc)

I got most of those on my work MP3 player...

[Ork_dreadnought]

I really don't see Basara as being as emotionally immature as Minmay. Socially immature? Sure. Emotionally? Not nearly to the extent of Minmay. Also, you're kinda delving into vague, broad-brush comparisons. You could say any number of Macross characters are like Kaifun with that reasoning.

Basara has been critised many times on this board for his refusal to listen to reason and a less than one-to-one relationship with reality. It sounds a like Minmay, but not exactly (see my comment about archetypes). Basara is a pacifist and so is Kaifun. Basara and Kaifun are also surprising good at defending themsleves for people so against fighting. Minmay and Basara are both hugely popular musicians explited by the military as physological weapons. All three of these characters are disliked by large chunks of the fanbase. As Basara postdates the other two, it fair to say his character was influenced by them.

I shouldn't have to defend this reasoning, the similarity cannot be ignored, or dismissed as superficial. It would be like saying, to use a non-macross example, Kira Yamato is not a homage/copy of Amuro Rei, only modified for a new audience.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Radd]

But, it is superficial.

Basara, other than criticizing the military now and then, is very different from Kaifun. He's not at all like an updated version of him for a new audience. He doesn't act anything like Minmay or Kaifun. Not one bit. The only two things that Kaifun and Basara have in common is that they're both labeled as "pacifists" (and there the label holds more true for Basara than for Kaifun) and that Kaifun is good in a fist fight, while Basara is a good pilot (and that comparison is kinda stretching). Their actions, their motivations, the way they deal with people, it's completely different.

I'd say Basara is more similar to Minmay, and yes there are certain lines that can be drawn between the two. They're both musicians and one of the primary focal points in their respective shows. They both wind up being important to the military. I would not say that labeling Basara as "the Minmay of M7" is off base, though I question the "refusal to listen to reason and a less than one-to-one relationship with reality" comparisons. "Not exactly" is an understatement.