Terminator Salvation, colon, Really Long Movie Title

[Vermillion21]

Looks pretty good. I'll prob give it a go in the theater.

ditto

[Warmaker]

Yeah, because crotch rockets are perfect for navigating the rubble-strewn landscape that is the future! Who knows, maybe they have motocross-looking terminators, too?

Maybe they'll do stunts in the air as they blaze away at the hapless humans down below? When they land, there will be a score of 1-10 displayed showing the difficulty of the Terminator's stunt, plus a Kill-meter.

[Warmaker]

You know, something bothered me when watching the fighting scenes from the Terminator Salvation trailer.

Compare the weapons and weapon effects from there to the ones established from the first 2 movies, namely this from Terminator 2. Heck, even Kyle Reese's flashbacks to the future war in the first Terminator movie. Even the

tries to be closer to the earlier movies.

So we go from these futuristic weapons from the earlier movies to M4 Carbines?

I can deal with the upcoming movie depicting the early portion of the war, where stuff like our current firearms would still be readily available. But in the trailer, full fledged T-800 infiltrators are already prowling around and not one single futuristic weapon has been shown or fired in the trailer.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Warmaker

[VT 1010]

You know, something bothered me when watching the fighting scenes from the Terminator Salvation trailer.

Compare the weapons and weapon effects from there to the ones established from the first 2 movies, namely this from Terminator 2. Heck, even Kyle Reese's flashbacks to the future war in the first Terminator movie. Even the

tries to be closer to the earlier movies.

So we go from these futuristic weapons from the earlier movies to M4 Carbines?

I can deal with the upcoming movie depicting the early portion of the war, where stuff like our current firearms would still be readily available. But in the trailer, full fledged T-800 infiltrators are already prowling around and not one single futuristic weapon has been shown or fired in the trailer.

Didn't John Conner say something in the trailer about the future being different than he thought? Changing the future is one of the themes of the franchise.

In reality, they probably thought M4s looked cooler or they were just lazy.

[wolfx]

The trailer seems to hint that the future has changed, and the movie deals with how John comes to terms with the pressure of being a messiah...that maybe he may not be able to save humanity like he did in the original future.

Carbines or not....damn that bipedal HK looks sexy.

[azrael]

You know, something bothered me when watching the fighting scenes from the Terminator Salvation trailer.

Compare the weapons and weapon effects from there to the ones established from the first 2 movies, namely this from Terminator 2. Heck, even Kyle Reese's flashbacks to the future war in the first Terminator movie. Even the

tries to be closer to the earlier movies.

So we go from these futuristic weapons from the earlier movies to M4 Carbines?

Don't you know? Bullpups just don't have the same flare as a M4.

[Greyryder]

M4s? No wonder the human race is losing. Could they have picked a less reliable weapon?

[Warmaker]

M4s? No wonder the human race is losing. Could they have picked a less reliable weapon?

Not to mention it's a conventional weapon / bullets. And we all know regular 'ol bullets harm T-800's like taking down a Tank with a Water Baloon Every instance of conventional small arms munitions used in the movies and TV series do SQUAT to Terminators.

Yeah, no wonder humanity's getting it's a** kicked. Because apparently John Connor forgot about that minor bit of detail even after getting chased by Terminators as a kid. Or unless conventional munitions can tear apart the machines, incl. Terminators. But then again, what point would there have been with the previous movies if a mere shotgun / assault rifle / pea shooter could take T-800's down?

Ok, back to what I originally brought up. A bit irritating that the movie isn't faithful to the equipment. I mean, even a mere *TV series* has been able to try to bring that feel and imagery of the movies when they showed the warfare in the future.

Bunch of lazy-a** special effects & props crew in the movie.

"Well, we're too lazy to build up props like the futuristic weapons from the previous movies and TV series. So we'll just borrow these same, 30 year old gun props used by every movie before. Think of the money we'll save!!!!!"

Edited January 2, 2009 by Warmaker

[macrossnake]

Not to mention it's a conventional weapon / bullets. And we all know regular 'ol bullets harm T-800's like taking down a Tank with a Water Baloon Every instance of conventional small arms munitions used in the movies and TV series do SQUAT to Terminators.

Yeah, no wonder humanity's getting it's a** kicked. Because apparently John Connor forgot about that minor bit of detail even after getting chased by Terminators as a kid. Or unless conventional munitions can tear apart the machines, incl. Terminators. But then again, what point would there have been with the previous movies if a mere shotgun / assault rifle / pea shooter could take T-800's down?

Ok, back to what I originally brought up. A bit irritating that the movie isn't faithful to the equipment. I mean, even a mere *TV series* has been able to try to bring that feel and imagery of the movies when they showed the warfare in the future.

Bunch of lazy-a** special effects & props crew in the movie.

"Well, we're too lazy to build up props like the futuristic weapons from the previous movies and TV series. So we'll just borrow these same, 30 year old gun props used by every movie before. Think of the money we'll save!!!!!"

I guess some futuristic weapon (for human) could still happen. So far all we saw is just 2 mins trailers.

Remember that is only the first of the three 'new' terminator movies...

[VT 1010]

Maybe the early model terminators aren't as well armored as the ones in the other movies. Maybe they could be using some "special" armor-piercing bullets. Maybe the resistance has yet to procure any phased plasma rifles (they're using the terminators' own rifles in the TV series anyway). At this point, we can only guess until the movie is released.

[bsu legato]

Who said that man-portable phased plasma weapons even exist at this point? One advantage that an M4 has is that it actually exists, and in great numbers. And unless Mw'ers have some alternate cut of the Terminator films than I do, we never see exactly what the combat capacity of the earlier T-600's are, especially in regards to their armor. As far as I know, the film takes place in something like 2018, which still leaves a decade for phased plasma weaponry to make an appearance on the battlefield. And none of this accounts for whatever permutations the timeline has taken on since Reece's flashback in the original film. But what the heck do I know? If Judgment Day happens tomorrow, I know that the denizens of Macross World have all sorts of Westinghouse 40-Watt plasma rifles they can break out of their weapon stores at a moments notice, and could readily show those silly resistance types a thing or two about guerrilla warfare.

Edited January 2, 2009 by bsu legato

[Keith]

Who said that man-portable phased plasma weapons even exist at this point? One advantage that an M4 has is that it actually exists, and in great numbers. And unless Mw'ers have some alternate cut of the Terminator films than I do, we never see exactly what the combat capacity of the earlier T-600's are, especially in regards to their armor. As far as I know, the film takes place in something like 2018, which still leaves a decade for phased plasma weaponry to make an appearance on the battlefield. And none of this accounts for whatever permutations the timeline has taken on since Reece's flashback in the original film. But what the heck do I know? If Judgment Day happens tomorrow, I know that the denizens of Macross World have all sorts of Westinghouse 40-Watt plasma rifles they can break out of their weapon stores at a moments notice, and could readily show those silly resistance types a thing or two about guerrilla warfare.

Plasma rifles nuthin', ride armor, ex gears, hard suits, moto slaves, & power armors damnit!

[Greyryder]

I'd be the guy on the hill, sniping T-600s with a berret .50 cal anti materials weapon.

What? There's a hunter-killer right behind me, isn't there?

[UN_MARINE]

actually... the presence of the T800, even the 600 means that plasma rifles would/should be available already.

if they were actually paying attention to the 1st 2 movies, plasma rifles & T800s together should be fact.

it all goes back to Reese's flashback. Reese describes the 800s as "new", but they were already packing some form of plasma rifle. not to mention the ones equipped on the HK's, the man-portable plasma cannons, the plasma cannons in the safehouse, and the thing mounted on the resistance technical.

yeah. this is lazy production. i guess all the money went to the bay-style cg effects.

couldn't they even buy at least 1 Sideshow Plasma Rifle replica?

SCC managed to buy a couple, or replicate their own. and that was a TV show!

[eugimon]

that would be a good point if the trailer didn't make it clear that t4 wasn't following the continuity set in either terminator or terminator 2 and since the TV show and terminator 3 similarly divorced themselves from the first two terminator films, there's little point in looking to them for continuity either.

Edited January 3, 2009 by eugimon

[wolfx]

Maybe the resistance has yet to procure any phased plasma rifles (they're using the terminators' own rifles in the TV series anyway). At this point, we can only guess until the movie is released.

Which is kinda strange in itself for there is no reason for Skynet to make phased plasma rifles that can be used by humans. If anything Skynet should make the weapons unusable by humans lest they are procured and used against its terminator legions. Perhaps too heavy for a human to use or requires termie fingers to hold them. (which based on my MCF toy a normal human hand won't be able to hold a plasma rifle)

[UN_MARINE]

regardless of continuity, fluff & etc.,

the appearance of a single machine with a plasma based weapon would prove the point of the producers just being lazy.

if they had the resources to show it on any of the Skynet tech, then why is the human cast stuck with conventional weapons?

assuming there will be plasma weapons in the movie. if there aren't, then that's just sad.

they wouldn't even have to show tons of 'em either. a couple would do. for the humans, it would be some super rare super weapon.

according to the novel, the plasma rifles were developed by Skynet & specifically engineered for the Endos. eventually, the resistance got a hold of some & reverse-engineered them for human hands.

i suppose it's a good explanation to the different grips on the models & replicas.

i think the Sideshow replica is the early Endo version

[eugimon]

I'm not arguing that this movie is anything other than a paycheck but I don't really see how the appearance of plasma weapons proves or disproves anything about the producers or the rest of the movie.

[Warmaker]

The whole thing about disregard with the past equipment speaks volumes, IMO about their laziness to continue the image and feel of the war. Every instance of the future war with the machines shown in previous movies, most especially Terminator 1 & 2, including a **TV series** has shown the futuristic plasma weaponry. Practically EVERY machine has had them. HK's, non-infiltration Terminators. Even the Terminator that got into Kyle Reese's compound in his flashback whipped out a machine-gun sized one. In Terminator 2, we see entire groups of Terminators roaming the battlefield with them, some even with two. In every instance, we see the humans in the future having mostly small-arms sized versions, but a few mounted ones (like the one on the trucks). Sure, I can recall seeing someone with what looked like a G-3 Battle Rifle in the first movie inside the compound, but the plasma weapons were still predominant.

I can deal with the fact that old conventional weaponry will be the weapon of choice at the onset of actual, active resistance against Skynet. That's what's only accessible until humans can get their hands on plasma weaponry of their own or from conversions. If we have T-800's rolling around, then plasma weapons should be like all over the place like finding candy in a store.

Again, even the TV series tried to do it right!

[Sumdumgai]

What were the resistance fighting with before they could get their meatsacky hands on those plasma rifles? They had to be using something. And if Reese learned to make pipebombs to use on Terminators, maybe the earlier models weren't so resistant and well armored, leaving them vulnerable to small arms fire.

I'm not damning the movie for the weapons parts yet. I'll wait and see how that plays out.

The killer motorcycles though...

[bsu legato]

The whole thing about disregard with the past equipment speaks volumes, IMO about their laziness to continue the image and feel of the war. Every instance of the future war with the machines shown in previous movies, most especially Terminator 1 & 2, including a **TV series** has shown the futuristic plasma weaponry.

And the fact that these flashback/future war scenes are still a decade away from the point in the altered timeline means nothing, then? Huh....some people are really bizarrely selective when it comes to suspending disbelief.

[UN_MARINE]

another interesting note here is that the trailers & write-ups seem to imply that in this new continuity, Connor is working with his very own terminators already.

so why wouldn't Connor & the resistance have access to plasma weaponry at that point?

IMO, it's an inconsistency that shows in the writing and reflects as laziness on the film's production.

it could be worse though. for all we know, it could be one giant firearms sales pitch.

[buffalobob77]

Good to see Playmates hasn't lost their suck.

http://www.toyark.com/news/terminator-toy-...toy-images-482/

[yellowlightman]

another interesting note here is that the trailers & write-ups seem to imply that in this new continuity, Connor is working with his very own terminators already.

so why wouldn't Connor & the resistance have access to plasma weaponry at that point?

IMO, it's an inconsistency that shows in the writing and reflects as laziness on the film's production.

It's an inconsistency that shows they're not aiming to please nitpicky super fans who will probably go and see the movie anyways. It's a different movie made by different people.

You should be worrying about if the movie is actually good, not some bizarre tirade about how not including one barely-seen piece of equipment means it's a "lazy" film production.

[taksraven]

It's an inconsistency that shows they're not aiming to please nitpicky super fans who will probably go and see the movie anyways. It's a different movie made by different people.

You should be worrying about if the movie is actually good, not some bizarre tirade about how not including one barely-seen piece of equipment means it's a "lazy" film production.

Yeah. Who cares about continuity in a franchise based on time travel?

Taksraven

[eugimon]

The whole thing about disregard with the past equipment speaks volumes, IMO about their laziness to continue the image and feel of the war. Every instance of the future war with the machines shown in previous movies, most especially Terminator 1 & 2, including a **TV series** has shown the futuristic plasma weaponry. Practically EVERY machine has had them. HK's, non-infiltration Terminators. Even the Terminator that got into Kyle Reese's compound in his flashback whipped out a machine-gun sized one. In Terminator 2, we see entire groups of Terminators roaming the battlefield with them, some even with two. In every instance, we see the humans in the future having mostly small-arms sized versions, but a few mounted ones (like the one on the trucks). Sure, I can recall seeing someone with what looked like a G-3 Battle Rifle in the first movie inside the compound, but the plasma weapons were still predominant.

I can deal with the fact that old conventional weaponry will be the weapon of choice at the onset of actual, active resistance against Skynet. That's what's only accessible until humans can get their hands on plasma weaponry of their own or from conversions. If we have T-800's rolling around, then plasma weapons should be like all over the place like finding candy in a store.

Again, even the TV series tried to do it right!

and again, john says, right in the beginning of the trailer, "this isn't the future that my mother warned me about"

This isn't a case of the producers not being faithful to the past, it's a case of fans not getting this isn't a direct continuation of the story told in terminator or even terminator 2, 3 or the TV series.

And every terminator project from T2 on has either implied or explicitly stated that the specifics surrounding judgment day and the war itself gets CHANGED each time someone goes back into the past. The TV show explicitly states there are multiple futures where certain events either happened or didn't happen. Why is it so hard to just accept that maybe in this particular future, plasma weapons either don't exist, or aren't common?

Edited January 3, 2009 by eugimon

[taksraven]

and again, john says, right in the beginning of the trailer, "this isn't the future that my mother warned me about"

This isn't a case of the producers not being faithful to the past, it's a case of fans not getting this isn't a direct continuation of the story told in terminator or even terminator 2, 3 or the TV series.

And every terminator project from T2 on has either implied or explicitly stated that the specifics surrounding judgment day and the war itself gets CHANGED each time someone goes back into the past. The TV show explicitly states there are multiple futures where certain events either happened or didn't happen. Why is it so hard to just accept that maybe in this particular future, plasma weapons either don't exist, or aren't common?

I think it demonstrates why Time Travel is such a dangerous plot device to use, especially if it is used on a regular basis in such a manner. (focussing on the same events over and over again)

I say that we invent a time machine and go back to a time when Jim Cameron was asked to do T2 and we can convince him to say "Pass". ( I don't think that T2 was THAT bad, but it did lay the groundwork for trying to get this franchise to last well beyond its use-by date.)

Taksraven

[eugimon]

I think it demonstrates why Time Travel is such a dangerous plot device to use, especially if it is used on a regular basis in such a manner. (focussing on the same events over and over again)

I say that we invent a time machine and go back to a time when Jim Cameron was asked to do T2 and we can convince him to say "Pass". ( I don't think that T2 was THAT bad, but it did lay the groundwork for trying to get this franchise to last well beyond its use-by date.)

Taksraven

well, continuity in time travel is only an issue if you're working with special relativity. But since in the terminator universe time travel to a point in the past before the time travel machine was invented is possible, it's fair to assume that special relativity isn't in play and some variation of quantum physics is at work. Each time someone or something goes back in time it splits off a new future with changes. So really, there's no point in getting worked up that the future we see isn't the same as the future in the first terminator film because that was kinda the whole point.

And the terminator stories have never been about time travel... time travel is a plot device here, not the focus. Not saying that you, Taksraven, said it was about time travel, just that it seems like we're getting hung up on the minutia of time travel needlessly.

Edited January 3, 2009 by eugimon

[taksraven]

well, continuity in time travel is only an issue if you're working with special relativity. But since in the terminator universe time travel to a point in the past before the time travel machine was invented is possible, it's fair to assume that special relativity isn't in play and some variation of quantum physics is at work. Each time someone or something goes back in time it splits off a new future with changes. So really, there's no point in getting worked up that the future we see isn't the same as the future in the first terminator film because that was kinda the whole point.

There is rarely any point in debating real science in SF unless that is what the creators had in mind. (As they do in the Hard-SF genre) In most instances of traditional SF you might as well substitute the word "science" with "magic".

And the terminator stories have never been about time travel... time travel is a plot device here, not the focus. Not saying that you, Taksraven, said it was about time travel, just that it seems like we're getting hung up on the minutia of time travel needlessly.

The whole franchise is built around the time-travel premise and the consequences that travelling into the past will have on the future. I would consider that more of a focus than a plot device. (Yes, I know I called it a plot device myself)

But still, don't forget, as SF fans it is our duty to nitpick. :lol:

Taksraven

[eugimon]

There is rarely any point in debating real science in SF unless that is what the creators had in mind. (As they do in the Hard-SF genre) In most instances of traditional SF you might as well substitute the word "science" with "magic".

I agree

The whole franchise is built around the time-travel premise and the consequences that travelling into the past will have on the future. I would consider that more of a focus than a plot device. (Yes, I know I called it a plot device myself)

But still, don't forget, as SF fans it is our duty to nitpick. :lol:

Taksraven

No, the whole franchise is built around the idea of ordinary people taking an active role in their lives and creating for themselves the future they desire instead of living their lives half asleep and thinking of themselves as powerless. The future war is the dramatic conceit that makes it interesting and time travel is the plot device to make it happen.

The way time travel is explained in the terminator universe (with even less ado than in the ST universe with their silly star slingshots) it might as well be magic. There's a few rules and no explanation at all of the actual science and mechanics.

[taksraven]

No, the whole franchise is built around the idea of ordinary people taking an active role in their lives and creating for themselves the future they desire instead of living their lives half asleep and thinking of themselves as powerless. The future war is the dramatic conceit that makes it interesting and time travel is the plot device to make it happen.

The way time travel is explained in the terminator universe (with even less ado than in the ST universe with their silly star slingshots) it might as well be magic. There's a few rules and no explanation at all of the actual science and mechanics.

I still dispute your first paragraph but I agree with the second, but ultimately I think that we are investing more time in arguing about this that what its worth. (In other words, not conceding defeat, just thinking, why are we bothering to argue about this)

Taksraven

[eugimon]

I still dispute your first paragraph but I agree with the second, but ultimately I think that we are investing more time in arguing about this that what its worth. (In other words, not conceding defeat, just thinking, why are we bothering to argue about this)

Taksraven

I dunno, I think my original point was something about how it was silly to worry about the lack of plasma weapons.

[taksraven]

I dunno, I think my original point was something about how it was silly to worry about the lack of plasma weapons.

The looked more like laser weapons to me in the first film.

Taksraven

[eugimon]

The looked more like laser weapons to me in the first film.

Taksraven

lasers would be easier to pull off than plasma weapons, especially at that rate of fire. Encapsulated rapid fire directed plasma weapons are more far fetched than cyborg assassins with heavy Austrian accents, imo.

[taksraven]

lasers would be easier to pull off than plasma weapons, especially at that rate of fire. Encapsulated rapid fire directed plasma weapons are more far fetched than cyborg assassins with heavy Austrian accents, imo.

Thats always another classic SF stuff up, having technology that is clearly going to take a VERY long time to develop in era's that are a little bit *too* close to the present day. ( In other words, budding SF authors, if you want to have humans with giant robots, battlecruisers, and really fancy ray guns, unless we get the technology from aliens, DONT set your story in 2015!)

Taksraven