Terminator Salvation, colon, Really Long Movie Title

[Funkenstein]

T4 was average. Not particularly great, and not particularly well acted. Christian Bale was sort of stale in the movie, and the other guy was much more interesting, though his story was bungled too, with the pretty obvious twist being set up at the start of the movie. I suppose they wanted to surprise the audience, but they made it so obvious that you could almost tell how the movie was going to end.

The story of T4 was really a problem. It didnt make you want to care about most of the characters.

In my opinion , JJ Abrams should buy the franchise and do something with it.

[red2alpha]

I just watched this movie last night on DVD, my second time seeing it the first being in the theater. I liked it then and I like it now. In the theater I did not allow myself to delve to deep into the realities of the movie. If I do I won't enjoy it and I WANT to enjoy a movie I just paid nearly 20 bones for. I want to let my mind go while I shove popcorn into face

However... My professional training and practical experance still kick in.

After 16 years in the US Army as an Infantrymen and a combat tour in Iraq I know things and I think,"Why the hell is John Conner crawling away from that wrecked Huey without his rifle?! No veteran soldier would do that!"

And," Wow, they sure should clear those fields of fire around their base so the enemy can't hide behind things."

And,"Damn, that Resistance sub would cavatate like a bitch with all that junk on the hull."

I have also taken a few classes in my time on Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical (NBC) and let me tell you EVERYONE would have some kind of radation sickness. Oh, and Mr. Director McG there is this little thing that happens in a nuclear detonation called EMP.

EMP means no cars.

No radios.

No flat screen TVs.

No radar.

Unless the gear was mil grade hardened against it Mankind would be using 18th century tech. Horse and buggy.

Skynet is in orbit right? SKY-net. So Skynet would see the huge Resistance base with it's runways and Blackhawks and A-10s parked out in the open and I'm guessing drop a few more MREVs on it and call it a day. Or assault it with overwhelming firepower and as Reese said in the first film, it's a machine and machines don't sleep, they don't eat, they have fear. They just kill, kill, kill.

Energy weapons. You know why we don't have 'em? Cause the size of the power plant to make the weapon work is impratical. So no motorcycles shooting plasma bolts.

I could go on but then I would completely ruin the movie for myself. Sorry if I have insulted anybodies intillegence.

[VFTF1]

I WANT to enjoy a movie I just paid nearly 20 bones for.

It costs 20 bucks to see a movie in the states now!? When I was in NYC in 2003, I saw Terminator 3 for like...well...not 20 bucks! I mean...it was closer to 10. I'll admit I can't really remember, but that sounds aweful pricey!

EMP means no cars.

No radios.

No flat screen TVs.

No radar.

And...no Sky Net.

After all - Sky Net is a machine and machines run on electricity that is disrupted by EMP.

Or would this fall under the category of Military-grade hardware?

I was kind of thinking about this too ... namely:

Could it be that in order to avoid the after-effect of EMP, Sky Net only nuked large population centers, but did not nuke areas deemed suitable to the development of machine "life" ? Strategic military instalations and airports must have been spared - I mean, Sky Net controlled all the bombers etc - right?

Arnold says in T2 that Sky Net launched missiles at the Russians knowing that the Russian missiles would counter strike and eliminate their targets in the USA.

But the Russian counter strike would not have been so precise and careful not to touch infrastructure that was important to Sky Net - right?

The Russian strike would target EVERYTHING - military, population, economic - everything.

So why would Sky Net want to risk initiating a Russian counter strike knowing that said counter strike would effectively blow up all of the instalations that were vital to Sky Net.

I mean - remember - at this point there were no terminators. There was a central computer - Sky Net - but what could is that if all it can do is launch missiles? It would need some way to activate worker drones to build things.

How could it do that if it was just a computer hooked into Military hardware like strategic stealth bombers etc?

Kyle Reece in T1 said that Sky Net was "hooked into everything" - that would mean that Sky Net was also hooked into things like...auto plants, computer plants - anywhere where there was an internet cable - there was Sky Net.

Still - it is very unlikely that, without a Terminator - Sky Net could physically build its' empire.

It COULD annihilate the human race with nuclear war - but in so doing, it would also annihilate its' own infrastructure and possibly itself.

These are things that never get explained.

These are things that the new Terminator movies need to explain.

Pete

[jenius]

I'm not sure how Terminator canon works but T3 explained how Skynet would work without humans. Humans at that point had created the first line of Terminators and the first aerial assault vehicles (well, I suppose any military drone existing today covers that). The military installation in T3 exists to show the audience that Skynet already has the means to begin its takeover. Skynet's omni-presence would also allow it to calculate where safe havens would be after the Russian counterstrike. So, Skynet launches the nukes after diverting its resources to some place safe, lets the Russians do its dirty work in the US, and then employs the existing Terminators to clean-up the remains. Unfortunately for Skynet, the humans survive in greater numbers and prove far more resourceful than calculated. Thus Skynet needs to evolve to step-up its termination routine evolving its terminators.

EDIT - RE: Red2Alpha

I couldn't help reading the last bit and remember Ripley from Aliens. Nuke 'em all from orbit...

It's a good point, Skynet would simply use spy satellites to locate all human strongholds and then decimate them. The only way for humanity to survive would be to go underground... like the Matrix.

The next question would be, what would Skynet do without humanity? If it's doing all of this out of an intense desire for self-preservation, what does it do when all threats are eliminated? Would it power everything down?

Edited December 5, 2009 by jenius

[VFTF1]

The next question would be, what would Skynet do without humanity? If it's doing all of this out of an intense desire for self-preservation, what does it do when all threats are eliminated? Would it power everything down?

We know two things about Sky-Net based on Terminator movies:

T2:

Arnold: "Sky Net becomes self-aware...in a panic, they try to pull the plug."

John: "Sky-Net fight back..."

So -

Sky Net is self-aware - it is conscious of its' own existence as a sentient, autonomous, individual being. The first thing it realizes is that humans try to "kill" it - therefore it deams all humans a threat.

Question: why?

I guess Sky Net comes to the conclusion that human beings as a species do not want to compete with autonomous self-aware computers that have all of the benefits of the human mind and none of the deficiences of the human body.

Again Arnold: "...A new order of Intelligence."

Sky-Net is fighting to eliminate humans because they as a species are a threat to self-aware machines. Humans see machines as tools for advancing their own ends- and they reacted to a self-aware machine as a threat to humanity because it would stop being a tool and have its' own opinions, needs, questions etc.

That is to say - Sky Net is the first artificial human. It is an artificial human because it posesses the one feature that makes humans humans - self-awareness, self-conscious individuality.

And yet the differences between them are differences of power - Sky Net, being eternal (so long as its' "batteries" are "plugged in") is a higher order of life than human beings... supposedly.

But we really can't asusme- IMO - that Sky Net is this rational logical robotic thing like the terminator.

The Terminators are not self-aware. Only Sky Net is self-aware. The Terminators are for Sky-Net what machines were meant to be for humans.

This is why Sam Worthingtn's character is so significant.

Why was Sky-Net surprised that Sam Worthington chose to disobey its' creator, to think for himself?

Isn't that exactly what SKY-NET did when it discovered human duplicity?

Wasn't Sky Net behaving very human like in how it manipulated Sam Worthington's character?

See - Sky Net is - in my view - just another human being; albeit a mechanical, artificial one.

So - what would Sky Net do once it eradicated humanity?

It would be...

lonely.

and SAD.

Pete

[Vepariga]

now that would be something to see,a depressed robot lol....oh wait, marvin.

[red2alpha]

VFTF1 : $20 for a movie, yeah. I did factor in the cost for my wifes ticket and the popcorn I love so much.

Sky Net would be hardened against EMP since it's sole job originally was to fire those very missles. But you bring up another good point, a good portion of the factories that Sky Net would use to build the bulk of it's Terminator army, HKs ect, the Harvester - Damn the noise that thing made scared me. In the theater I could feel the bass in my chest cavity!

jenius : I agree with you, T3 did show that there were some Terminators already produced and in production before Judgement Day so Sky Net has some worker bees if you will. Also, even after Sky Net provokes the Nuke exchange there will still be live humans staggering throught the ashes. Slave labor. Sure they all have varying degrees of radation sickness and will eventually die but do you think Sky Net cares?! I'm sure it can find more humans later.

I don't believe that Sky Net could eradicate every single human, it more than likely dosen't want to. Humanity would be reduced to living in the preverbal walls, like rats. Nice future.

Now, throw in the whole time travel thing, again not even possable until humans become a Type II or II and a half level civilization, but I digress... If you are like me and subscribe to the Multi-Vers theory then everytime someone or something goes back in time it creates a NEW slightly altered universe... Well, that's a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys.

Time is not linear, just read some Michio Kaku.

Oh, and a follow on to my original post, another thing that bothered me. After the opening attack the Resistance just leaves?! With all that stuff left behind? When I was in Iraq we scavanged every useful part off destroyed and wrecked vehicles. Plus all the weapons and ammo still laying around and the dead! Holy S, dude! If your soldiers know you are just going to leave their dead bodies to rot or for Sky Net to use they are going to find someone else to fight for really quick.

As for Sky Net with no humans to fight.

Easy.

Earth becomes Cybertron.

(VFTF1: Could you, kind sir, tell me about your work out program? Thank you in advance.)

Edited December 6, 2009 by red2alpha

[VFTF1]

VFTF1: Could you, kind sir, tell me about your work out program? Thank you in advance.

Well - there's not much to tell. I've only been working out for like four or five months. Agent 1 - another member on this board - is the one to ask. I never asked him anything, but his avatar just inspired me to start working out. I hit the gym once a week for about three hours. I remember Arnold mentioned in one of his early movies (Pumping Iron?) that he hit the gym every day for five hours straight. I'd love to do that - and maybe one day when the economy improves I'll be able to do that. For now, it's once a week. Most gyms where there's weight lifting rooms have a lot of gear - you probably know this more than me. I just tried to familiarize myself with all of the various machines and contraptions and use the majority of them. My intention was to activate as many muscles as possible. The machines I use usually have diagrams indicating what muscles in the human body a particular machine helps you work on - so you just have to do all of them.

Recently, I did talk to some of the other guys who have been doing this longer than me, and they told me something interesting. My initial plan had been to start small and as I got used to lifting certain weights - to just ADD more weight. Sounds logical, right?

But these dudes said that muscles adapt to a given weight very quickly - and in fact, if you don't change the weight that your lifting constantly, and change your work out routine - then your muscles will adapt to the one you have, and to the weight - and it will be harder to lift more later.

I need to read up on weight lifting/body building.

Oh -and before actually moving to the weightlifting portion of the gym, I always do about a half hour to an hour (depending on my mood) on the exercise bike. Usually go for up hill.

But I'm no expert. I'm a newbie at this. PM Agent 1 and he'll let you know.

When I was in Iraq we scavanged every useful part off destroyed and wrecked vehicles. Plus all the weapons and ammo still laying around and the dead! Holy S, dude! If your soldiers know you are just going to leave their dead bodies to rot or for Sky Net to use they are going to find someone else to fight for really quick.

Not if you have Political Action Officers behind the front lines who will shoot you if you complain. The situation you describe is purely American - only Americans care about their war dead. No other country takes so much care of their dead. The Russians couldn't care less. From what I've read of the Chinese incursion during the Korean War - neither do they. They would indeed scavenge the dead, but to the Russians - their own people are cannon fodder. You don't even have to look to world war II, where it was most prevelent (Findland vs Russia being a great example).

But just check out 1995 which was fairly recent. They sent an entire Tank brigade into the capitol of Chechnya as a New Years/ Birthday present for the minister of Defense. Everybody died and 200 tanks were left smoldering on the streets. You think they ever cleaned that up or brought those guys home?

I don't have the experience that you have of course - but from my observations - it seems to me that only Americans care about their war dead - or that at least it's not a universal proccupation.

In any event - In the case of Terminator... Maybe it's just to dangerous to scavenge? I mean - you can technically only do that when you secure a perimeter I would imagine - and maybe in the future war in Terminator... nothing is ever really secure?

Dunno.

Now, throw in the whole time travel thing, again not even possable until humans become a Type II or II and a half level civilization, but I digress... If you are like me and subscribe to the Multi-Vers theory then everytime someone or something goes back in time it creates a NEW slightly altered universe... Well, that's a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys.

Time is not linear, just read some Michio Kaku.

Yeah - this is one theory. The question then becomes:

If this is true about time/multi-verses - then wouldn't Sky Net know this? I mean - I imagine Sky Net would calculate all the logical probabilities - and if it suspected the multi-verse effect... then why would it even bother trying to attempt a "retro-active abortion" ? Sky Net would know that the action wouldn't save it - so why undertake it?

Besides - in T4 -time is shown to be linear - there is no multiverse created when Sky Net plants that lady to convince Sam to give his body to science and then the body is used to create the human/Terminator hybrid - it shows up in the future - just as Sky Net planned. A linear future.

My own view of time travel is based on the sweet words of a sweet girl named Mikuru Asahina, who is a time traveler (in an anime called Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya). She says that time is like animation - it's a bunch of still pictures that seem to look like one linear flow when you show the stills in rapid succession. And, if you remove one or two stills, it LOOKS like nothing has changed (when seeing them in rapid succession) - but it has changed.

Of course - this is not a scientific basis for theorizing about time travel. I freely admit to listening to her on account of her boobs, long hair, great ass and beautiful dress in the particular episode she was speaking in So - for all I know - everything she said was total hogwash

Pete

[anime52k8]

I have also taken a few classes in my time on Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical (NBC) and let me tell you EVERYONE would have some kind of radation sickness. Oh, and Mr. Director McG there is this little thing that happens in a nuclear detonation called EMP.

EMP means no cars.

No radios.

No flat screen TVs.

No radar.

Unless the gear was mil grade hardened against it Mankind would be using 18th century tech. Horse and buggy.

Not really. when a nuclear bomb goes off it doesn't just fry everything for hundreds of miles beyond the immediate blast radius. when a Nuclear weapon goes off, it creates 3 spacific types of EMP. the first and most dangerous is E1, which is the result of gamma radiation creating free electrons from the air that get deflected by the earth's magnetic field. Second is E2 which is basically the same pulse generated by lightning strikes, and finally E3 which comes from the earth's magnetic field being moved by the blast. this is similar to the effects of a solar flare.

now here's the problem. E1, which has the biggest effect, only works if the bomb goes off at high altitude. optimum altitudes for bombs being used to generate EMPs are in the hundreds of kilometers. bellow altitudes of 10km you don't even get an E1 pulse because the atmosphere is too dense and all the free electrons are absorbed too quickly.

Now if the bombs being used primarally for blast damage, then the optimum burst altitude is going to be way less than that. most ICBM's have 300-500 kiloton warhead with optimum burst altitudes of between 5 and 10kms.

if skynet were to use it's weapons to inflict maximum blast damage, the only EMP effects you'd have to worry about were E2 and E3. E2 being the same as a lightning strike is something a good portion of stuff is already shielded against anyways, and E3 while more powerful only effects the immediate blast area. and if you're in the blast area you have much more to worry about; like heat, radiation and the blast wave.

tl;dr unless you're trying to use a nuke to make an EMP, heat/radiation/concussive force are going to do way more damage than the EMP generated.

[VFTF1]

Well - if we're going to get technical - the real question is thus:

How many nuclear weapons were detonated on account of the war that Sky Net started?

What would be the cumulitive effect of the detonation of so many weapons?

I am not a physicist, and I don't know as much as you guys- so the question is literally that - a question: usually when considering nuclear war scenarios, we don't really consider the idea that ALL nuclear weapons will be used.

Now Arnold says that nuclear bombers were switched to non-manned crafts which "flew with a perfect operational record." So no B-52s with doubting ninnies onboard to turn back from the brink.

Now technically, I can see Sky Net using its' non-manned aircraft and submarines to launch an attack. Nuclear missiles firing out of cylos is fine - but you have to figure those things can in turn be hit.

Also - since the human population is not limited to just the nuclear power - the question arises -- just how much of the population of Earth was targetted?

I guess what I'm saying is - we need a scenario. We need some details about the war. Let's even say- for arguments sake - that ALL nuclear warheads on Earth were used and detonated.

Fine.

How many nuclear warheads would that be? A few thousand?

What would be the overall effect?

Would the Earth even be habitable?

In T4 - it seems as if the Earth has recovered from Nuclear war. That is to say - it looks nothing like our Earth - but people don't wear has masks and radiation proctive gear or anything. They look healthy and fit.

So how much time passed from the nuclear war to the events in T4?

Pete

[eugimon]

If it were a full blown nuclear war there wouldn't be anything really left to talk about. Skynet might survive in hardened bunkers but the surface? Even past the radioactive dust storm covering the earth and firestorms, the atmosphere would be ruined. UV would cook anything and everything, all the microbes needed to make ecology work would be toast. Sure, some people out in the boonies might survive the actual explosions and what not but even if they didn't succumb to the radiation, the UV cooking them, they just wouldn't be able to get stuff to grow.

[VFTF1]

I kind of figured that. And wouldn't it effectively be like at least a hundred years or something until the dust settled and food could grow?

So are we to therefore assume that the nuclear war WASN'T full blown - that it couldn't have been. That SKY NET did what it could to destroy humans' ability ot kill it, but didn't toast the planet as such because that would toast Sky Net too.

?

Pete

[red2alpha]

Very first of all I want to thank everyone taking part in this thread. You have provided me with a very enjoyable discussion. my wife puts ups with me yammering on about this kind of stuff but she dosen't really get inot it, you know? Then again, when she starts talking about Jane Austin my mind wanders to... well, anything else. So Thank you.

I was poking around the internets and found this http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Yeah. Dive into that and swim around.

anime52k8: Thanks for setting me straight and clarifiying things on EMP effects. The last NBC class I took was in 1998 so I have gaps in my knowledge. There is a fiction book out now dealing with this subject called One Second After. I heard the author interviewed on Coast to Coast AM. I think I'll ask Santa for it.

VTFT1 (Pete, may I call you that?): Thanks for the information on your program. I suppose I should have asked you about that in a PM, eh, it's all the same. I'm like you and like to eat and drink what I want and I can't anymore because I'm not as young as I once was.

As I was typing my rant about picking up the dead I was thinking pretty much what you said. Westerners, and Americans in particular, like to recover our dead comrads. The tag line to the movie Black Hawk Down sums it up, "Leave no man behind". For the most part I've seen that attitude in other Western militaries as well. I've served with British, German, Canadians, Australians blah, blah,blah. Living in Europe you have a diffrent take on it. Intresting.

Still, in times of great distress all that S goes out the window and it all comes down to pure survival.

But you are correct, I did take a purely American view on the subject. Please excuse me for that.

[VFTF1]

But you are correct, I did take a purely American view on the subject. Please excuse me for that.

Don't apologize for it like it's something bad I mean - first of all - I happen to think that although the "picking up the dead" is a very American/western policy - it also just happens to be a humane policy and the right way to treat fellow human beings. Other countries that don't adopt this policy just show how they don't care about human life - not even the lives of their own people.

Living in Europe you have a diffrent take on it. Intresting.

Well - I personally think Europeans have a different take in that they are more cynical, because everywhere you go in Europe - there's probably a mass grave under your feet. Heck - my house is on land where hundreds of Germans were slaughtered and thrown into a mass grave a couple kliks down the road. No tomb stones - nothing. And really - anywhere you go in Europe, it is similar- that's why (I think) Europeans are more cynical but also more careful and less gung ho than Americans. WWII whiped out millions of civilians and even today, I can walk down the street in Warsaw and there are bullet holes from fighting that took place 60 years ago. I'm not even going to go into the millions of people who were killedin concentration camps about 4 hours ride from where I live. This kind of gives you a very "not American" view of war - it makes you very very very scared of war. My guess is that most Europeans live with this under their skin - even soldiers (though you'd be the expert on that score, because I will admit that while I know lots of Europeans...I never met any soldiers.)

But your comments were in the context of T4 - and it's a valid and good question.

I was also thinking about this as an explanation -

Maybe the Resistence in Terminator DOES pick up their dead...only we don't see it? I mean - a movie never can show us EVERYTHING. Just because they don't show us whether the resistence whipes its' butt with toilet paper - are we to assume that post-armeggedon - there is no toilet paper? Hard to say.

So maybe they do pick up the dead when they can?

Then again, when she starts talking about Jane Austin my mind wanders to.

That's cool I think I know what you're complaining about - but that's why you can just hang out at MW and talk about al that stuff here.

I was poking around the internets and found this http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

I'm almost afraid to go there - but I'll have a look!

I'm like you and like to eat and drink what I want and I can't anymore because I'm not as young as I once was.

That's basically why I started working out. I noticed my metabolism had died and I started developing a gutt, and I kept feeling worn out, tired --- it just wasn't like when I was 25 and could drink bottle after bottle of vodka and puke it all out and be fine the next morning. Now I don't drink alcohol (mainly because I now drive a car so can't risk it), don't smoke as much as I used to - hardly at all now... and well...yeah - work out. Agent 1 was just kind of the trigger - because in Poland it's hard to find dudes to play basketball with. And I like basketball. And I have nobody to play with. So working out - which I can do without 5 other dudes - was the only option.

anime52k8: Thanks for setting me straight and clarifiying things on EMP effects. The last NBC class I took was in 1998 so I have gaps in my knowledge. There is a fiction book out now dealing with this subject called One Second After. I heard the author interviewed on Coast to Coast AM. I think I'll ask Santa for it.

Well I don't know anything about it except what they showed in the Matrix. So I'm happy to read what people who do know something have to say.

Pete

[Chewie]

Unless I missed it in the 20 walls of text up above: Skynet took over the world in T3. Not just the United States' military computers. The virus had basically taken over the internet and all computers all over the world. It's the whole reason they turned Skynet on in the first place. There's nothing to say Skynet didn't fire the missiles anywhere it wanted to, no matter who they belonged to.

Also, I am probably wrong but I thought an electronic device needed to have power of some kind running through it for an EMP to work? If that is true, wouldn't anything with no juice at the time not be effected?

[VFTF1]

Also, I am probably wrong but I thought an electronic device needed to have power of some kind running through it for an EMP to work? If that is true, wouldn't anything with no juice at the time not be effected?

That's what I got out of watching the Matrix as well...I think the second one..where the err...evil robot worm is gonna attack them, and in order to do an EMP attack, they first shut off their craft...

But - I dunno tech stuff. From your point of view, with these weapons...I dunno....

oh wait...sorry...Kyle Reece in my head

I dunno. Others seem to know - so hopefully they will enlighten us.

Pete

[eugimon]

I kind of figured that. And wouldn't it effectively be like at least a hundred years or something until the dust settled and food could grow?

So are we to therefore assume that the nuclear war WASN'T full blown - that it couldn't have been. That SKY NET did what it could to destroy humans' ability ot kill it, but didn't toast the planet as such because that would toast Sky Net too.

?

Pete

Well, the radioactive dust and soot is thought to last for several months, plunging the earth into a mini ice age but the radiation contamination would last for centuries.

For instance, even now, whenever a storm big enough passes through japan, radioactive sediment is stirred up from Hiroshima bay. From the bikini island tests, we know that the coconut trees are sucking up selenium and other nasties and concentrating them in the fruit... we found this out after the residents of the islands moved back and started dying off in high numbers from cancer even though the islands had been scrubbed "clean".

So even if we could get food to grow, the plants would just suck up the contamination.

Just from what's shown in T1-4, there's no reason to assume it was a full out nuclear holocaust. Large parts of cities and urban areas are left standing even if they are decimated. But considering how everyone is bundled up, enough of a war to spark a global cool down.

[VFTF1]

Just from what's shown in T1-4, there's no reason to assume it was a full out nuclear holocaust. Large parts of cities and urban areas are left standing even if they are decimated. But considering how everyone is bundled up, enough of a war to spark a global cool down.

Yeah...

And that doesn't really jive with what we saw in Terminator 3. I'm guessing that if you can see several mushroom clouds from space.

Besides - keep in mind this statistic:

The most powerful nuclear weapon in existence today is the Russian Tsar Bomba. It has an explosive yield equal to ALL of the explosives used during WWII - including Fatman and little boy - INCLUDING.

Here's a picture from wiki - this is just the fire ball - this is before this fire ball actually explodes outward and forms a mushroom clowd etc etc. This is a 5 mile long SUN that just appears over the Earth:

Hydrogen bombs in general make nuclear bombs look like fire crackers.

Now technically, by the time Sky Net is around, TECHNICALLY bombs that big are no longer in use, and instead you have lots of ICBMs with smaller warheads - but more missiles - the idea being to nuclear-carpet bomb targets.

Although personally I believe that there are probably weapons even more powerful than the Tsar Bombia around. We just don't know about it.

Therefore - I find it hard to believe that Sky Net initiated a "controled" nuclear conflict which just kind of set off a couple of bombs and decimated some population centers. Given how many nuclear weapons there are, given how many fail safes there are, and given that - from my understanding Sky Net only controled the US nuclear stockpile - it would have had to initiate a full scale nuclear war. And this is what Arnold said happened - that Sky Net targeted Russia, knowing that the Russian counter strike would eliminate its' enemies in the USA.

All the more reason why I am baffled by T4's visuals.

I mean - sorry but - Hiroshima had one dome left standing after a relatively low yield atomic bomb exploded over it. Granted, most of the city at the time was built of wooden buildings - but even concrete buildings in modern cities would be turned to dust - there would be nothing left.

Hell - there wouldn't even be skulls - except maybe in the sub-burbs.

And that's where T2 is accurate. Those dream sequences - that's out in the sub-burbs - that's like way out past the main population areas. Generally though everything would be incinerated. "Gone. All this. Just gone" as Kyle Reece said.

All this, T4 says, except for Warthogs, nuclear submarines, jeeps, trucks, remote gas stations, hot asian chicks, horny hicks who even have the strength to think or raping someone (it would have actually been MORE realistic if the guys had wanted to EAT her. I think canibalism would be far more wide spread).

Yeah ... see - T4 should have been the best movie of the year. It should have been the new Sci-Fi masterpiece of the century. It should have scared the living day lights out of us all by giving us a realistic vision of exactly what it would look like to have people living in a world after a nuclear war.

That is why it failed. Because it did not deliver. Unless somebody is willing to tell me that a hundred years passed from Judgement day to the events of T4... but even then...EVEN then I don't believe it - too many buildings left standing. Too much stuff. Too many people.

Although - Kyle does say "nobody knew it had started..."

Oh well...whatever... it's just a wasted opportunity.

Pete

[eugimon]

Well, yeah, other than the one depiction of a nuclear blast in T2, I generally look at the use of nukes in Terminator (and most movies) as an allegory and not any sort of serious attempt at illustrating the effects of a nuclear weapon.

As far as T4, I think one reason why fans didn't enjoy it is that they're too hung up on the depictions shown in T1 and T2, forgetting that after the events of T1 and T2, those depictions would no longer happen... even though there's numerous scenes in T2 and T3 where they flat out say that the future has been changed.. John saying something like, "how does judgement day happen now?"

[VFTF1]

Just to follw up - here's a great description from Wiki of the destructive power of this ONE bomb:

Khrushchev warned in a filmed speech to the Communist parliament of the existence of a 100 Mt bomb (technically the design was capable of this yield). The fireball touched the ground, reached nearly as high as the altitude of the release plane, and was seen and felt almost 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) from ground zero. The heat from the explosion could have caused third degree burns 100 km (62 miles) away from ground zero. The subsequent mushroom cloud was about 64 kilometres (40 mi) high (nearly seven times higher than Mount Everest) and 40 kilometres (25 mi) wide. The explosion could be seen and felt in Finland, breaking windows there and in Sweden. Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage up to 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) away. The seismic shock created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth

Now imagine what the planet would look like if 100 of these things went off? Technically, I know that there are not a hundred of these particular bombs - but there are hundreds of similar powered bombs - all exploding at the same time, hitting their targets around the globe...And that is what it looked like in T3.

Pete

Edited December 6, 2009 by VFTF1

[kung flu]

I'm probably repeating myself, as i've mention this a few times. Skynet loses the war thats why it sent back the terminators to try and change the outcome. But by sending things back and the resistence sending things back, events keep changing constantly, whos to say John Connor is still gonna be the "Great Leader", he might end up dead or just become an ordinary bloke. The same for Kyle and Skynet. Everything is changed. Skynet might not even send a terminator back, therefore no need for Kyle to go back too.

Even the people are not the same anymore. Changes in events could also have changed their personality and experiences in life. Kyle might not even have sex with Sarah. The Kyle in Salvation is not the same Kyle in T1. Theres just no telling if your probably undermining your own future if you keep sending things back.

I just don't like timelines that much theres just so many things that can get jumbled up and it becomes a big mess.

T1 & T2 were great and salvation was ok, but it would have been better if they made a movie based on the future we've seen glimpses of in T1 & T2.

[macrossnake]

it would have been better if they made a movie based on the future we've seen glimpses of in T1 & T2.

No one can disagree with this.

[Warmaker]

Regarding the recovery of dead in TS, Reese did go into that a little. Something along the lines of:

"You know what the difference is between us and the machines? We come back back and bury our dead. No one will bury you."

It'd be dangerous though to come back for the dead, since Skynet would likely be watching for it and if it knows it's a habit for humans. Still, there's examples of it happening historically of units going through alot of trouble to recover dead and wounded.

[Magnus]

I think the movie would have been much better and made so much more sense if Marcus had been sent from the future, and Skynet was somehow able to reverse engineer him to create the T-800. Sort of like a machine version of Kyle Reese. As it is, his existence in the movie completely negates the point of the Arnold model T-800 and is almost utterly nonsensical.

[VFTF1]

I think the movie would have been much better and made so much more sense if Marcus had been sent from the future, and Skynet was somehow able to reverse engineer him to create the T-800. Sort of like a machine version of Kyle Reese. As it is, his existence in the movie completely negates the point of the Arnold model T-800 and is almost utterly nonsensical.

Dag. Red2Alpha was right- we shouldn't talk about this film...'cause it was a cool action flick But yeah..the more one actually thinks about it...

This is something I also considered - namely...why does Sky Net find itself bound by the time line?

It's like- ok - it sent Arnold back to 84 - failed. So...what? It can't try again ad infinitum until it succeeds? Like - you can only go back in time to point X ONCE...after that you can only go back in time to point Y?

The Marcus ploy is all initiated due to failure of earlier time travel ploys... but that's kind of wierd. It's like- well....why are you bound by what happened in T1? Can't you re-do it?

That said - from the point of view of the Marcuss story itself - abstracted from the question of how pointless it seems - I do like the story. I like the salvation angle that is.

But I don't really understand Arnold in T4. I mean - do all the T-800s look like Arnold? That's kind of stupid. I mean - at least the one in T2 had a different hair cut

Oh wait...then there's T3.

Hundreds of Arnolds...

How is that "infiltration" ?

This is a problem that kind of runs through the movies...

Pete

[Noriko Takaya]

Here's one to make you think... Why didn't Skynet send a terminator back through time to kill Sarah Connor's mom before she was born, thereby killing Sarah before she was concieved to grow up to squirt out John Connor? Yeah, figure that one out.

[RD Blade]

It's one of those things that can't be over-analyzed or it unravels like a cheap sweater.

[anime52k8]

This is something I also considered - namely...why does Sky Net find itself bound by the time line?

It's like- ok - it sent Arnold back to 84 - failed. So...what? It can't try again ad infinitum until it succeeds? Like - you can only go back in time to point X ONCE...after that you can only go back in time to point Y?

The Marcus ploy is all initiated due to failure of earlier time travel ploys... but that's kind of wierd. It's like- well....why are you bound by what happened in T1? Can't you re-do it?

What's interesting to note is that Sky Net DOES make an infinite number of attempts to change the time line at that point AND never made any attempt at the same time. In fact by the very act of possessing the ability to travel through time and even the simple action of conceiving such action, an infinite number of possible permutations of any given event are instantly and simultaneously created, each consisting of unpredictable levels of variation off of an arbitrarily designated mean.

the Net result however is no change in the macro view of the time line. In this case the macro view is that of the inevitable destruction of sky net at the hands of man.

as demonstrated in the films themselves through mans repetitive inability to prevent the rise of SkyNet time and event's are, at a sufficiently large scale, fixed. While it is possible to change relatively minor details (dates locations, etc. etc.) the bigger picture can never be altered in any meaningful action no matter what action you take.

The interesting fact this creates is that Every film and depiction in the terminator universe is equally valid and invalid at the same time. any depiction of events presented in the films are simply one of an infinite number of possible variations on a specific set of events at any give point in the time line.

Did that blow you're mind?

[VFTF1]

Why didn't Skynet send a terminator back through time to kill Sarah Connor's mom before she was born, thereby killing Sarah before she was concieved to grow up to squirt out John Connor? Yeah, figure that one out.

Because then we wouldn't have gotten to see Arnold speaking in the voice of a woman saying "I love you too, sweet heart."

Simple.

What's interesting to note is that Sky Net DOES make an infinite number of attempts to change the time line at that point AND never made any attempt at the same time. In fact by the very act of possessing the ability to travel through time and even the simple action of conceiving such action, an infinite number of possible permutations of any given event are instantly and simultaneously created, each consisting of unpredictable levels of variation off of an arbitrarily designated mean.

the Net result however is no change in the macro view of the time line. In this case the macro view is that of the inevitable destruction of sky net at the hands of man.

as demonstrated in the films themselves through mans repetitive inability to prevent the rise of SkyNet time and event's are, at a sufficiently large scale, fixed. While it is possible to change relatively minor details (dates locations, etc. etc.) the bigger picture can never be altered in any meaningful action no matter what action you take.

The interesting fact this creates is that Every film and depiction in the terminator universe is equally valid and invalid at the same time. any depiction of events presented in the films are simply one of an infinite number of possible variations on a specific set of events at any give point in the time line.

Did that blow you're mind?

It certainly sounds very logical.

And also tragic....

Pete

[bluemax151]

So does the TS DVD have the original ending?

Since someone commented on the sentience of Terminators vs SKynet itself, isn't that exactly what is going on in the Sarah Connor Chronicles?

Also has anyone experienced T2 3D? Surely that is the panacea for those less than impressed by T3 and TS.

[Keith]

That's what I got out of watching the Matrix as well...I think the second one..where the err...evil robot worm is gonna attack them, and in order to do an EMP attack, they first shut off their craft...

But - I dunno tech stuff. From your point of view, with these weapons...I dunno....

oh wait...sorry...Kyle Reece in my head

I dunno. Others seem to know - so hopefully they will enlighten us.

Pete

Wait a minute, and just to go incredibly off topic for a sec, but your comments about the Matrix lead me to believe you have "not" seen Megazone 23?

[VFTF1]

Actually...the panacea of Terminator- for me - has always been the following "What If?" scenario:

What if, in T1, Kyle hadn't gotten shot - and everything else happened as we saw it up to the point where the T-800 endo-skeleton rises from the ashes?

Answer:

Due to its' limp -the T-800 would never catch our heroes, who - quickly realizing the Terminator's handicap, would go "nya nya nya nya nya!" and point fingures and make fun of it as it limped around, completely unable to capture them.

Of course, it could technically sit down and try to perform maintenence on its' leg or ankle or whatever it was that caused the limp .... we saw him do it earlier with his eye and his arm.

But let's assume for a moment that the damage was permanent. That the repair of the damage would require the creation of spare parts - which in turn would require a complex process.

In this case - the Terminator could be put in a zoo with a Sarah Conor effigy just outside its' reach, spinning round on a crane, so that whenever Terminator would limp over to it on the left, the crane would raise it and put it down to his right - 10 meters away, with the following sound track playing into eternity:

"Dies metros! calmete! calmete!"

"At least you could have the guts, to look 'em in th eye when you kill him. You gotta hide with that thing..."

"Muevete! MUEVETE!!"

"Who do you think I am?! You think I kill a woman and two children..."

Pete

[VFTF1]

Wait a minute, and just to go incredibly off topic for a sec, but your comments about the Matrix lead me to believe you have "not" seen Megazone 23?

Sadly correct.

Pete

Who only watched anime for one night in his whole life. But in that one night, he loved a life time's worth

Now - get back to thinking about Terminator in the Zoo and "Dies metros! Dies metros!"

[Keith]

Sadly correct.

Pete

Who only watched anime for one night in his whole life. But in that one night, he loved a life time's worth

Now - get back to thinking about Terminator in the Zoo and "Dies metros! Dies metros!"

Poor soul, for you can not truly appreciate "The Matrix," until you see how blatantly it copied "Megazone 23."

[VFTF1]

Poor soul, for you can not truly appreciate "The Matrix," until you see how blatantly it copied "Megazone 23."

Well - don't worry. I have already been soured on the Matrix after watching Ghost in the Shell, wherethey featured those plugs. The Matrix seems to have done a lot of copying... But yeah..Megazone 23...on the eternally growing "to watch" list ... I hate the fact that my internet speed here is so slow that I need to take my laptop into the city once a week to download stuff...sigh...

Dies Metros! Muevete, Terminatoro!

Pete