I have some questions about copyright...

[vlenhoff]

How does copyright affect an original painting which resembles an existing character? If I painted Mel Gibson, would I have to pay royalties to Mel Gibson? Could I sell copies of my original artwork even if it was MG's Face? Would it matter if it was MG's face at all? In the same sense, If I painted an original version of a VF-1S, would I have to pay HG to be able to sell my painting? Even if it is an original creation of an existing shape? For example T-shirts with this design....

If I paint an original of an existing copyrighted franchise... I guess I must pay copyright fees? Is the shape itself of the VF-1S or anything else copyrighted? Wouldn't it propagate or advertise the original and already existing artwork, if my version was sold?

I'm I crazy?

Please help...

[grapetang]

If you're in the US, you will probably find your answers here http://www.copyright.gov and here http://www.uspto.gov. International copyrights are probably more complicated.

I always thought it was OK if it was a one-of-a-kind _ORIGINAL_ and not a mass-produced Gundam, er... item, but then again, I'm not a lawyer. You might want to read about Fair Use.

For resin/plastic/vinyl models, legitimate companies do get limited licenses to reproduce & sell their goods at cons. I don't believe re-cast shops bother which leaves me wondering about infringement when they create their own unique designs (based off some character or mech) and then sell them for profit.

How does it work for for one-of-a-kind, original fan art? Mass-produced fan art? Stuff sold at cons?

[miriya]

definitely good idea to research the law or talk to a lawyer. I am pretty confident though that the design itself of the VF is protected under copyright even if you yourself paint it. Selling shirts would require a licensing from big west or harmony gold or whoever.

However copyright is lifted for political satire. Using your mel gibson reference, South Park was able to use mel gibson's name, character and face in an episode in parody of him for political reasons. It was really funny by the way if you have not seen that episode I recommend it.

I myself did oil paintings of Milia and Misa and I was thinking about selling them but just gave them to my dad instead. I am pretty sure that if you paint a VF and keep it for yourself, give it to someone or trade it you will be in the clear. But I am NOT a lawyer.

There was a Chinese restaurant that made duck and their logo was a really crude rendering of Donald duck and I seem to remember that they got sued by Disney for that.

[vermillion01]

did u take any pictures of those paintings miriya? (post post post). I love oil paintings (somewhat of an artist myself... well used to be).

[chrono]

How does copyright affect an original painting which resembles an existing character? If I painted Mel Gibson, would I have to pay royalties to Mel Gibson? Could I sell copies of my original artwork even if it was MG's Face? Would it matter if it was MG's face at all? In the same sense, If I painted an original version of a VF-1S, would I have to pay HG to be able to sell my painting? Even if it is an original creation of an existing shape? For example T-shirts with this design....

If I paint an original of an existing copyrighted franchise... I guess I must pay copyright fees? Is the shape itself of the VF-1S or anything else copyrighted? Wouldn't it propagate or advertise the original and already existing artwork, if my version was sold?

I'm I crazy?

Please help...

In the US you can paint, draw, or duplicate ANY copyrighted design. However you MUST ask and receive their permission first to sell it in any way. Also, if the copyright holder is a right big Tom Cruise about it, you can't show to the public in any mass gathering or in a group unless you given permission. In ALL cases you MUST credit the design to the copyright holder.

Don't forget there are at least 2 copyright holders. The Intellectual Copyright and standard Copyright. If you only get the consent of 1 then you'll have to ask a judge to hear the case, because neither can over-ride the other.

However, and this it the drop dead funniest part, many times buildings, artworks, and other designs that are copied into a work are conveniently voided if the person who did the creation claimed to be an "artist".

[miriya]

did u take any pictures of those paintings miriya? (post post post). I love oil paintings (somewhat of an artist myself... well used to be).

Yeah, here they are. You know I just "copied" the drawings from the Arii figure box images and did them in oil. Lets see if I can post them here? Hope they show up....

[Zinjo]

WOW nice work!

Yeah the whole Macross copyright is a bit of a minefield.

Especially with HG having a habit of claiming more rights than they actually have.

Studio Nue holds the intellectual rights to Macross, but HG holds half the animation rights internationally and whatever priviledges that is afforded in the US. The only clear right they have over Macross in the US is the name. They managed to get it trademarked in 2003 after the Japanese court awarded BigWest and Studio Nue intellectual rights to the franchise (critical blunder on BigWest's part).

So technically the VF-1 is a Studio Nue owned design, however because it appears in the animation, HG may claim infringement. So as stated, if you wish to sell, you best talk to a lawyer.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Zinjo

[vlenhoff]

Thanks for the answers! Some time ago I created a VF-1S (you can see the VF-1S head area of the old drawing in my avatar). I decided I wanted to eliminate all the drawing's black lines thus liberating, and creating a "real" looking VF-1S. You can now clearly see the cameras inside the head visor piece, rust oil, dirt, rock/gravel impact, wind wear, everything! Well, I'm almost done, and I am really liking what it looks like too. All the people I know cannot believe I made this drawing. It feels 3D but it is 2D. I also created a valk girl Miria. And it is perfect. Both are not done yet, but I'm going to make t-shirts and wall scrolls. The world deserves to see this, and if I have to get the rights I will. I'm kind of worried about HG's reputation. I don't want them to rip me off. Honestly I'm scared, and I decided to create this thread to hear everyones opinion, before I take a step forward in this enterprice. I have so many designs, most of them originals. This two creations must see the light. They are all about love and detail.

I don't know what would be the best way to approach HG about this... Will they rip me off and say I copied one of the already existing drawings? Their artwork totally suck(sorry whoever is the artist) It is inacurate and not proportional in my opinion. My VF-1S have uncanny detail and it is Kawamorrrific

I wanted the perfect VF-1S creation, and now I want to share it whith the world!

I feel like a beauty pageant

V

[Zinjo]

Thanks for the answers! Some time ago I created a VF-1S (you can see the VF-1S head area of the old drawing in my avatar). I decided I wanted to eliminate all the drawing's black lines thus liberating, and creating a "real" looking VF-1S. You can now clearly see the cameras inside the head visor piece, rust oil, dirt, rock/gravel impact, wind wear, everything! Well, I'm almost done, and I am really liking what it looks like too. All the people I know cannot believe I made this drawing. It feels 3D but it is 2D. I also created a valk girl Miria. And it is perfect. Both are not done yet, but I'm going to make t-shirts and wall scrolls. The world deserves to see this, and if I have to get the rights I will. I'm kind of worried about HG's reputation. I don't want them to rip me off. Honestly I'm scared, and I decided to create this thread to hear everyones opinion, before I take a step forward in this enterprice. I have so many designs, most of them originals. This two creations must see the light. They are all about love and detail.

I don't know what would be the best way to approach HG about this... Will they rip me off and say I copied one of the already existing drawings? Their artwork totally suck(sorry whoever is the artist) It is inacurate and not proportional in my opinion. My VF-1S have uncanny detail and it is Kawamorrrific

I wanted the perfect VF-1S creation, and now I want to share it whith the world!

I feel like a beauty pageant

V

Well you can do limited releases to the community here, which has been done with T-shirts at least, not sure about prints. If you wish to mass market it, maybe consider getting an agent to contact BigWest first. There is a greater Macross market in Japan (thank you HG... )and most anime stores import items from Japan anyway.

There is an organization that represents artist in Japan which includes Mikimoto in their clientelle, I can't remember the name off the top of my head...

I'd recommend staying away from HG at every opportunity. Any deal with them would probably give them residual ownership of your work long after the deal is finished.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Zinjo

[vlenhoff]

Well you can do limited releases to the community here, which has been done with T-shirts at least, not sure about prints. If you wish to mass market it, maybe consider getting an agent to contact BigWest first. There is a greater Macross market in Japan (thank you HG... )and most anime stores import items from Japan anyway.

There is an organization that represents artist in Japan which includes Mikimoto in their clientelle, I can't remember the name off the top of my head...

I'd recommend staying away from HG at every opportunity. Any deal with them would probably give them residual ownership of your work long after the deal is finished.

See, it is scary... Now, would it be better to contact Big west? Is that a greater evil? Or lesser? I have a great vision about Macross mecha, and I really want to share it, and of course get paid while I,m at it. I can spend my life doing this drawings, but there is got to be a way to get paid sufficiently for the effort, love, sweat, you put into these works of art.

I'm a little overwhelmed about this whole subject. I though about doing a test mini production run, but I do not want to get into trouble, so I stopped. I still want scrolls of them and t-shirts for myself. I never wore my art before, but these drawings are just uncanny. I made Miria into vectors, so her resolution is perfect at any size!

I'll find the way to do this one way or another. Thanks guys for your input. It is very understanding and helpful of you to contribute to this thread.

[valkyrie13]

See, it is scary... Now, would it be better to contact Big west? Is that a greater evil? Or lesser? I have a great vision about Macross mecha, and I really want to share it, and of course get paid while I,m at it. I can spend my life doing this drawings, but there is got to be a way to get paid sufficiently for the effort, love, sweat, you put into these works of art.

I'm a little overwhelmed about this whole subject. I though about doing a test mini production run, but I do not want to get into trouble, so I stopped. I still want scrolls of them and t-shirts for myself. I never wore my art before, but these drawings are just uncanny. I made Miria into vectors, so her resolution is perfect at any size!

I'll find the way to do this one way or another. Thanks guys for your input. It is very understanding and helpful of you to contribute to this thread.

Hi, I am no IP lawyer but you will likely face these issues in this day and age unless everything you use in your "art" is original (even then, some may still claim that you infringed their intellectual property rights if they see similarities which can be a result of pure coincidence). With that said, using IP lawyers to go after every single infringement (or potential infringement) does not make sense commercially. That is why you see the US and other industries (with original designs, trademarks and copyrights to protect) are lobbying the USTR to put pressure on other countries where IP rights have been known to have been largely ignored (e.g., China) and that is also why you see a crackdown by law enforcement in Hong Kong or China every now and then. Wandering off topic here.

In your case, if you're thinking of making just a few bucks to close friends or people on this community, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But if you have a grand idea of making this a mass produced commercial product, then do approach the copyright holder. Unfortunately, as people have indicated throughout this thread, there is a dispute as to who own the IP rights to Macross outside of Japan (or some would say, in the US). You can approach Big West and see if they are interested in giving you limited license over the product you have in mind. IP does not generate revenues unless someone turns that into a viable commercial product. So, companies like Big West are always looking for opportunities to generate more revenues even if they themselves do not want to put in the efforts. If they like your idea, then it's just a matter of negotiating who gets how much of the revenues (or profits depending on how you negotiate the licensing contract). Sometimes they will deny you of license if they feel that it breaches the terms of an exclusive license that they already granted to someone else, or if they have plans to put the product in motion themselves some years down the road or if they think your idea will hurt the image or somehow harm the IP rights in the long run (which basically means that they don't agree with you that it's a good idea).

In doing so, you also need to diligence the scope of the license you are getting from the licensor. Does Big West have the right to give you license for distribution in the US? I think not, given their dispute with Harmony Gold. For Japan? Probably yes. What about other countries? Hmmm....

One word of caution, if there are original ideas, technology or designs that you created which will be used for the production, make sure that it's also protected since the licensors can easily infringe upon your "right" (if not legally protected) as much as you can on theirs.

[Zinjo]

In doing so, you also need to diligence the scope of the license you are getting from the licensor. Does Big West have the right to give you license for distribution in the US? I think not, given their dispute with Harmony Gold. For Japan? Probably yes. What about other countries? Hmmm....

Well there is a loophole with respect to imported material. Any US license holders cannot block the importation of foreign merchandise distributed by legal license holders outside the US, which is why Yamato Valks are freely available now.

HG tried to block the import of Yamato valks, but the courts ruled against them.

[Roger]

Well there is a loophole with respect to imported material. Any US license holders cannot block the importation of foreign merchandise distributed by legal license holders outside the US, which is why Yamato Valks are freely available now.

HG tried to block the import of Yamato valks, but the courts ruled against them.

Do you have a link to this information? If this ruling took place within the last few years the court filing is most likely online.

[Zinjo]

Do you have a link to this information? If this ruling took place within the last few years the court filing is most likely online.

It's in here somewhere...

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...c=153&st=40

or you could contact the webmaster at this site who was one of the online distributors of the YF-19 that sparked the whole question of Macross imports back in the day.

VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM

Edited October 9, 2007 by Zinjo

[Roger]

It's in here somewhere...

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...c=153&st=40

Don't see it.

or you could contact the webmaster at this site who was one of the online distributors of the YF-19 that sparked the whole question of Macross imports back in the day.

VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM

Doing that now.

[VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM]

No people were brought to court. Selected retailers were give 'cease and desist' notices from HG attorneys. Many retailers including myself took the products offline but eventually the retailers realized that HG didn't take any action. The Macross toys were being offered everywhere so eventually the whole thing just faded out of everyone's memory.

My understanding as I heard it from a credible source was that HG was taking the necessary legal actions to illustrate that they own toy rights outside of Japan and were protecting these rights. This way if the ownership rights were brought into court, HG can show the evidence that they proceeded to do what any 'owner' would do to protect their licensing rights.

I know several retailers who was served the letter. No one went to court as far as I know. The irony is that i know retailers that sell 10 times if not more the volume that I did with Macross merchandise and they never got a letter.

-Kevin

[valkyrie13]

No people were brought to court. Selected retailers were give 'cease and desist' notices from HG attorneys. Many retailers including myself took the products offline but eventually the retailers realized that HG didn't take any action. The Macross toys were being offered everywhere so eventually the whole thing just faded out of everyone's memory.

My understanding as I heard it from a credible source was that HG was taking the necessary legal actions to illustrate that they own toy rights outside of Japan and were protecting these rights. This way if the ownership rights were brought into court, HG can show the evidence that they proceeded to do what any 'owner' would do to protect their licensing rights.

I know several retailers who was served the letter. No one went to court as far as I know. The irony is that i know retailers that sell 10 times if not more the volume that I did with Macross merchandise and they never got a letter.

-Kevin

It's no wonder. It's practically impossible to approach every single person who allegedly infringes on their "IP right". (Quotations added for points that are arguable/debatable.) But if they fail to take any action against those who are brought to their attention, then with lapse of time, they can lose their "rights".

[Mr March]

No people were brought to court. Selected retailers were give 'cease and desist' notices from HG attorneys. Many retailers including myself took the products offline but eventually the retailers realized that HG didn't take any action. The Macross toys were being offered everywhere so eventually the whole thing just faded out of everyone's memory.

My understanding as I heard it from a credible source was that HG was taking the necessary legal actions to illustrate that they own toy rights outside of Japan and were protecting these rights. This way if the ownership rights were brought into court, HG can show the evidence that they proceeded to do what any 'owner' would do to protect their licensing rights.

I know several retailers who was served the letter. No one went to court as far as I know. The irony is that i know retailers that sell 10 times if not more the volume that I did with Macross merchandise and they never got a letter.

-Kevin

Ah, I got it almost 100% correct. I had to answer this question on a few other boards and I knew there were some members here who had first hand experience with the HG C&D letters.

I thought I heard that one small business owner challenged HG's C&D letter by requesting they prove their copyright with a public disclosure of their supposed liscensing agreement. HG apparently refused and when that failed, the whole C&D thing stopped. Is that just rumor or can anyone confirm this?

[Dangard Ace]

Ah, I got it almost 100% correct. I had to answer this question on a few other boards and I knew there were some members here who had first hand experience with the HG C&D letters.

I thought I heard that one small business owner challenged HG's C&D letter by requesting they prove their copyright with a public disclosure of their supposed liscensing agreement. HG apparently refused and when that failed, the whole C&D thing stopped. Is that just rumor or can anyone confirm this?

Wasn't that SpideyJeruselum aka Blastotoys?

[Zinjo]

Ah, I got it almost 100% correct. I had to answer this question on a few other boards and I knew there were some members here who had first hand experience with the HG C&D letters.

I thought I heard that one small business owner challenged HG's C&D letter by requesting they prove their copyright with a public disclosure of their supposed liscensing agreement. HG apparently refused and when that failed, the whole C&D thing stopped. Is that just rumor or can anyone confirm this?

Yeah I heard that from the grapevine too back in the day, but don't remember the source.

However that was back before BW won their IP rights back in Japanese court and then HG subsequently went around an Trademarked the name "Macross" to be able to continue to block Macross productions from further international distribution.

If you'll note there hasn't been any re-issue of Mac Plus and Mac II since 2003, when they trademarked the name. As I've said before, BigWest's most critical blunder in not opposing that as they had before.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Zinjo

[VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM]

I thought I heard that one small business owner challenged HG's C&D letter by requesting they prove their copyright with a public disclosure of their supposed liscensing agreement. HG apparently refused and when that failed, the whole C&D thing stopped. Is that just rumor or can anyone confirm this?

Yes, there were many MWers including myself whom contributed money so that Blastotoys could hire an attorney and respond to the C&D. I believe it costed around $4K+ to retain the attorney and issue a response. MWers contributed almost somewhere between $2K-$3K. Now that you refreshed my memory, I do believe HG didn't reply to the demand to provide ownership.

Edited October 10, 2007 by VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM

[Roger]

Yes, there were many MWers including myself whom contributed money so that Blastotoys could hire an attorney and respond to the C&D. I believe it costed around $4K+ to retain the attorney and issue a response. MWers contributed almost somewhere between $2K-$3K. Now that you refreshed my memory, I do believe HG didn't reply to the demand to provide ownership.

Wow, that sucks. Seems like a waste of time, money, and effort, on everybody's part.

[Zinjo]

Wow, that sucks. Seems like a waste of time, money, and effort, on everybody's part.

That's how HG continues to be able to make false claims, so long as no public court decision is rendered against them, they'll keep making claims of ownership they can't prove....

[Mr March]

Yes, there were many MWers including myself whom contributed money so that Blastotoys could hire an attorney and respond to the C&D. I believe it costed around $4K+ to retain the attorney and issue a response. MWers contributed almost somewhere between $2K-$3K. Now that you refreshed my memory, I do believe HG didn't reply to the demand to provide ownership.

Wow. I can't believe I remembered all that correctly. It was such a mess for so long, it's a miracle any truth is still kicking around my head. That's a real shame about the need to spend all that money. I suppose HG was counting on the fact that no one would bother the spend that kind of money to challenge their claim. Oh, the tactics they use these days

[Roger]

That's how HG continues to be able to make false claims, so long as no public court decision is rendered against them, they'll keep making claims of ownership they can't prove....

Aside from this series of letters a few years ago, what other claims have they made recently?

I also wonder who made the decision to send the letters in the first place. There have been a few changes in the staff over the past couple of years. (I really don't expect an answer to this.)

[VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM]

Aside from this series of letters a few years ago, what other claims have they made recently?

I also wonder who made the decision to send the letters in the first place. There have been a few changes in the staff over the past couple of years. (I really don't expect an answer to this.)

Who has left?

[TheLoneWolf]

Wow, that sucks. Seems like a waste of time, money, and effort, on everybody's part.

I don't think it was a complete waste of time. After Blastotoys had their lawyer ask Harmony Gold for proof of ownership the letters stopped being sent out. I guess Harmony Gold wasn't expecting anyone to formally call their bluff.

[Roger]

Who has left?

Alan Letz and Tom Bateman, who were both involved with licensing for several years, are no longer with the company.

I don't think it was a complete waste of time. After Blastotoys had their lawyer ask Harmony Gold for proof of ownership the letters stopped being sent out. I guess Harmony Gold wasn't expecting anyone to formally call their bluff.

Okay, I'll buy that.