Supervision Army

[Ishimaru]

That is not the Macross Compendium, Ishimaru. That link you posted is from an old Role-Playing Game website with made up information that is not official. Now I understand why I never heard of them going back to investigate the Supervision Army Derelict, because it's not officially what happened. Here is the Macross Compendium, that has official information about Macross:

Macross Compendium

I guess I proved myself wrong then by disbelieving a fan site, by the way you really don't have to link me Compendium that seemed like a insult to me no offense.

Just trying to get a look at some other sources since they make some reasonable sense, I'd just like to know what other people think before looking at Compendium.

Curious to know if the ship was actually a false booby trap though, if they did examine the ship what would have happened?

My curiosity is the relation to the Megaroad, as said they disappeared or should I say lost contact when they reached the center of the galaxy, given from Compendium:

Megaroad-01's communications cease near the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. (News about this ship are not publicized.)

We actually don't know all the facts, I'm curious to know if the ASS-2 had any relations in the disappearance of the Megaroad-01, could it have been possible that the ASS-2 was just a dud to examine information about the crew and the Zentradi vessel itself?

As stated before the SA does have technology that surpasses that of the Zentradi, that encounter with the ship could have been much more.

I mean come on out of all the places in the Galaxy, chances of finding the SA would be rare, but in the center I mean come on the Megaroad-01 must have encountered something when they got there and I'm assuming the SA none the less it could be something else.

Ugh all these conjectures and theories are getting us no where, I have a feeling Shoji Kawomari will tell us when it's right but that won't be for a while.

As quote in quote they did not reveal any more news about the ship was not publicized so there are a lot more that we don't know about. (Eh...was that directed towards the actual world of the anime or us? Just making sure. )

Edited September 14, 2007 by Ishimaru

[mikeszekely]

Could the protagonists in this thread please post the complete time/event lines that they believe are true?

That would help a lot follow your arguments I think.?

Please?

Well, the Chronology at the Macross Compendium, the Atlas at the same site, plus the events of SDF Macross, Macross Plus, Macross 7 (especially the Encore Episode "Fleet of the Strongest Women"), and the canon video game Macross VF-X2 are mostly what I'm pulling my info from.

Most of the more heated discussion (I'm loathe to call it arguing, as I really do respect everyone who's participated in the discussion) has been, as I see it, is that a lot of people have their own ideas of just what's been going on behind the scenes in the Macross universe, and they don't want to discuss any others.

Basically, my points are this:

-According to the Chronology, the Protoculture were all but extinct a long time ago, and the Protodeviln sealed away on Varauta, but the Supervision Army have continued fighting. Therefore, the bulk of the Supervision Army at present would be Zentradi.

-From conversations in SDF Macross, the Zentradi were still fighting the Supervision Army as of 2010. Also, Global considered the Supervision Army to be a real threat on par with other Zentradi fleets. Therefore, there are an unknown number of Supervision Army ships/fleets still out there.

-From the Atlas, the Chronology, and Macross 7, we know that Varauta was part of the Stellar Republic, and that Rax held at least a Protoculture temple. We also know that Varauta is closer to the center of the galaxy than Earth, and that Rax is closer to the center than Varauta. From that, I've speculated that the Stellar Republic began near the center of the galaxy and expanded outward. We also know that only one Protoculture ship made it to Earth, and shortly thereafter war and the decimation of the Stellar Republic would have prevented further expansion. Therefore, I've also surmised that Earth would have been frontier to the Protoculture, that Earth has been relatively unmolested by the Supervision Army/Zentradi war because of that, but that the chances of encountering a Zentradi or Supervision Army fleet/ship would increase the closer one gets to the heart of the former Stellar Republic.

-From Macross 7, we know that by 2038 37 long-range emigration fleets had been lauched toward the galactic center. And, the Macross 7 fleet did encounter another Zentradi fleet (the Chloe Fleet). This encounter supports my theories, although admittedly does not prove them. Therefore, although the mathematical probability of randomly encountering a fleet or ship would be likely be low (although we have no way of knowing, since we have nothing but speculation on the actual numbers of the Supervision Army), a UN fleet COULD encounter a Supervision Army fleet.

-What's more, although this part is where I'm getting the most speculative, it is possible that between 2012 and 2040, where there is very little canon information to go on, the UN might have already encountered the Supervision Army. For starters, we know nothing about the unusual Zentradi power suits Isamu and company were fighting at the beginning of Macross Plus. Although unlikely compared to other explanations, there exists the possibility that they were Supervision Army Zentradi. Also, and things get a little trickier here, prior to the filming of DYRL, all the Zentradi ships encountered were of the same design/technological style, including the Lap'Lamis fleet. The Meltrandi-style ships in DYRL could have been written off as a movie prop design to make the Meltrandi ships stand out from the Zentradi ships, except that in Macross 7, the Chloe fleet is using the Meltrandi-style ships, which means that both styles really were in use, and that the UN had encountered them prior to the filming of DYRL. If you think about it, although DYRL separated the factions by male and female, the bottom line is that it's Zentradi fighting Zentradi, which would be true of the conflict between the Zentradi Army and the Supervision Army, as well as the Protoculture civil war before the Supervision Army. So, the differences in technology could be because different Zentradi fleets have different tech, that Zentradi fleets fighting on one side of the civil war had one type and the ones fighting on the other side had the second type, or that the Zentradi Army used one type, and the (likely mostly) Zentradi remnants of the used the Meltrandi type. If the latter is true (of which we have no way of knowing), then the UN would have encountered the Supervision Army prior to DYRL to use their ship designs for the Meltrandi in the movie. Although the competing theories are just as possible, if not more so, I personally and attracted to the last one because it reconciles the SDF Macross notion that the SDF-1 was a Supervision Army ship with the DYRL notion that it was a Meltrandi ship.

[Keith]

Major problem with that theory being, we don't know what the lifespan of the Protoculture was. We know the Zentradi, Humans, & Zolans have limited life spans.

We also no that the AFOS, EVIL, & Ginga Kujira have extremely long, if not infinate ilfe spans. Since 2 out of three of those species are definately known to be created by the Protoculture (though i think the GK are too), we know that the Protoculture had the technology to make themselves immortal.

My basic point being, there's no reason to believe that any remaining SA would be Zentradi, and could in fact still be PC citizens.

[eugimon]

Major problem with that theory being, we don't know what the lifespan of the Protoculture was. We know the Zentradi, Humans, & Zolans have limited life spans.

We also no that the AFOS, EVIL, & Ginga Kujira have extremely long, if not infinate ilfe spans. Since 2 out of three of those species are definately known to be created by the Protoculture (though i think the GK are too), we know that the Protoculture had the technology to make themselves immortal.

My basic point being, there's no reason to believe that any remaining SA would be Zentradi, and could in fact still be PC citizens.

Well, there's at least circumstantial evidence to support that the SA army fielded giants (humans figured out that aliens were giants based on observations of ASS-1) as opposed to the PC citizens who seem to have been micronian sized (scale of submerged city). It's entirely possible that the PC created a second race of giant humanoid warriors though.

[Keith]

Well, there's at least circumstantial evidence to support that the SA army fielded giants (humans figured out that aliens were giants based on observations of ASS-1) as opposed to the PC citizens who seem to have been micronian sized (scale of submerged city). It's entirely possible that the PC created a second race of giant humanoid warriors though.

That could just be for their mecha. Though we also know from the DYRL production, & from Graham in Dynamite, that the macronizing technology isn't exclusively for Zentradi use, it also works on humans & Zolans. As such, it would also work on Protoculture. In fact, the Protoculture remnant found at the Lux ruins was giant if I recall correctly.

[eugimon]

That could just be for their mecha. Though we also know from the DYRL production, & from Graham in Dynamite, that the macronizing technology isn't exclusively for Zentradi use, it also works on humans & Zolans. As such, it would also work on Protoculture. In fact, the Protoculture remnant found at the Lux ruins was giant if I recall correctly.

Wasn't there micron sized stuff as well? In any case, I was just saying that there's circumstantial evidence to support the idea that the SA were zentradi or at least giants.

[Gui]

Concerning the power armors that Isamu fought at the beginning of Plus, maybe it's just a variation made for a specific purpose accordingly to a specific situation in a particular region of the galaxy

Let's say, for example, that the standard Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadlunn-Rau are the most common designs into the various zentran/meltran fleet, some sort of general use mechas if you want. In different circumstances, or in different fleet charged with more specific tasks, zentrans and meltrans would use different designs (to use a comparison with Gundam, the DOM is a general purpose MS-09 but the Tropen is the same MS modified for desertic environments: you could use the former in such areas but the latter would simply be best suited) . After the fall of the Stellar Republic until nowadays, these zentrans/meltrans would still use the same designs, certainly produced and repaired by specific factories, the ones these fleets belong to

Of course this would imply that the UN encountered another zentran and/or meltran fleet than the one of Bodolzer, which may not be canon...

[Mr March]

I know by now that I'm just coming across as argumentative, but that's really not my intention. I know you didn't say the Stellar Republic was more dense at the center of the Galaxy... I'm not either. I agree, we don't know. What I am saying though is that it's a likely possibility, and that as humanity heads in that direction, they'd be more likely to encounter the Supervision Army.

Again, I'm NOT saying that the Supervision Army is more abundant closer to the galactic core, and I'm NOT saying that we SHOULD have encountered the Supervision Army. I AM saying that it's not necessarily as unlikely as you think. And I AM curious why such a big deal was made about the Supervision Army in SDF Macross, only for the subject to have never been brought up again.

That's fair enough. I agree that a purely mathematical arguement may not have been the best example for a purely speculative discussion, but it makes sense nonetheless. I agree it's more likely than ever that the UNG would encounter someone else, it's just not very probable regardless of the circumstances within the UNGs capabilities.

Now the second part of your post I can speculate on a plausible answer. Remember that the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series was originally planned to be a far longer series and changes were made to shorten it and then extend it yet again. So some of the Supervision Army plot threads are likely hanging plot threads leftover from editing. Now after many years of viewing the show, we fans are still left with some unanswered questions. But one thing is clear, the creators included the dialogue and scenes about the Supervision Army to make certain the audience understood the greater conflict in the Galaxy and the nature of the Zentradi. It was also to remind the audience the SDF-1 Macross is ultimately a Supervision Army ship that started this whole affair.

[Mr March]

I guess I proved myself wrong then by disbelieving a fan site, by the way you really don't have to link me Compendium that seemed like a insult to me no offense.

Just trying to get a look at some other sources since they make some reasonable sense, I'd just like to know what other people think before looking at Compendium.

You specifically said in your initial post that you got the information about a second mission to the Supervision Army Derelict from the Macross Compendium. Your second post then answered my question (where is that information specifically on the Macross Compendium?) but you posted a link to a Role-Playing Game website instead. What other reasonable conclusion could I reach with the information at hand? Regardless, there was certainly no insult intended and trust me when I say we're all just trying to make sense of Macross.

[Mr March]

Concerning the power armors that Isamu fought at the beginning of Plus, maybe it's just a variation made for a specific purpose accordingly to a specific situation in a particular region of the galaxy

*snip*

Of course this would imply that the UN encountered another zentran and/or meltran fleet than the one of Bodolzer, which may not be canon...

I agree it could be so. Like I said in an earlier post, there are several possible scenarios for the appearance of the Zentradi "Enemy" Battle Suit seen in Macross Plus including the possibility it's an old design that wasn't encountered by the UNG until 2040. Also, it could be possible that different Zentradi fleets have access to different factory satellites that can make different mecha. So it's not unreasonable to assume some Zentradi fleets (like the Bodol Zer Fleet, for example) will not have access to everything in the original Zentradi military inventory.

[mikeszekely]

Major problem with that theory being, we don't know what the lifespan of the Protoculture was. We know the Zentradi, Humans, & Zolans have limited life spans.

We also no that the AFOS, EVIL, & Ginga Kujira have extremely long, if not infinate ilfe spans. Since 2 out of three of those species are definately known to be created by the Protoculture (though i think the GK are too), we know that the Protoculture had the technology to make themselves immortal.

My basic point being, there's no reason to believe that any remaining SA would be Zentradi, and could in fact still be PC citizens.

See, now we're thinking about possibilities. I like that.

But consider this... Zentradi seem to have been modeled after the Protoculture themselves. Likewise, Humans and Zolans were genetically engineered to be a sub-Protoculture species. 3 species, Humans, Zentradi, and Zolans, based on Protoculture, have finite life spans, and to me that would indicate that they themselves do too.

Now, are the EVILs actually immortal? It was only 9 months after the emergence of the Protodeviln that they were sealed away on Varauta. Is it not possible that the their bodies, if not the extradimensional energy beings inside them, were in a kind of stasis, and that had they been left loose, they might have aged and died? Also, we don't know how being possessed affected them. Perhaps the EVILs would have aged and died, but the Protoculture's feeding on spiritia would artificially increased their life span. Likewise, energy from the sub universe coming in through their superdimensional organs might be sustaining them, and it's a fair bet that Humans, Zolans, Zentradi, and Protoculutre don't have superdimensional organs.

AFOS is another case altogether. I do not believe that AFOS counts as a species, or even a truly living thing. AFOS seems to be, for all intents and purposes, a mecha, one that even requires a pilot to operate fully. Yes, it has blood and biological components... but that might just be to facilitate the interface between the pilot and AFOS. Can AFOS think for itself? I doubt it; AFOS seemed to be operating on pre-programmed contingencies, that is, if humanity could travel space but hadn't given up war, it should be eliminated.

Finally, I don't really see any reason to think that the Galactic Whales were any creation of the Protoculture. The Protoculture's main goal seemed to be colonization and expansion, which began before they'd even developed FTL transportation. Likewise, the Zentradi were created before FTL transportation, and the Zentradi served a purpose. What purpose would the Whales have served? If the Protoculture created them, they would have to have come after they'd developed FTL transportation, since the Whales themselves seemed to be able to utilize some method of FTL travel themselves. It seems like a waste of resources to create the whales.

Actually, thinking about the fact that the Zentradi were created and Protoculture colonization began before they'd developed FTL technology makes another argument for why the Protoculture probably came from closer to the galactic core; there are more star systems packed closer together there, making sublight colonization more feasible there than it would be farther out. Now, you could take colonization to mean other planets in their home system or Gundam-style orbital colonies (which, indeed, the chronology does say they had), but we have to take the Zentradi into account. The split in the Stellar Republic hadn't occurred yet (the Stellar Republic wasn't formed until later, in fact), and the Supervision Army hadn't been formed. Who were the Zentradi supposed to fight? The chronology only says that "they greatly expanded the Protoculture sphere of influence." That would seem to indicate that they were conquering other inhabited planets (since the Compendium only says that the Protoculture were the first sentient life, not the only), and they were using the Zentradi to subdue the natives.

Which raises another possibility about the Supervision Army. It could be possible that non-Protoculture species, resentful of the Stellar Republic, may have willingly joined, or would continue to join and fight after the Protodeviln were defeated.

[mikeszekely]

Now the second part of your post I can speculate on a plausible answer. Remember that the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series was originally planned to be a far longer series and changes were made to shorten it and then extend it yet again. So some of the Supervision Army plot threads are likely hanging plot threads leftover from editing.

That's actually very likely, since we know that some of the ideas that didn't make it into SDF Macross were used in Macross 7. In Macross 7, the Varauta Fleet was made up of the Megaroad-13 fleet, but since the colonization had yet to begin in SDF Macross, they probably would have been Supervision Army.

[Ishimaru]

I got a question.

What is protoculture?

[Mr March]

Taken from my website (Macropedia Section):

Protoculture

An advanced interstellar civilization whose species is considered the first sentient race to evolve in the universe. The protoculture existed hundreds of thousands of years before humanity achieved space flight and was responsible for guiding the evolvution of Humans and creating the Zentradi.

[Saur0n]

I like to just keep it simpler and make believe Macross II was a direct sequel and that the Marduk are the Supervision Army

[Ishimaru]

I like to just keep it simpler and make believe Macross II was a direct sequel and that the Marduk are the Supervision Army

Wow never thought to take the idea from that point of view, I really never thought of it that way.

Ideas?

[Keith]

Except The Marduk are specifically started to have been from a planet somewhat like Earth that also came across & defeated the Zentradi. i.e. they're not the Supervision Army.

[Zinjo]

Except The Marduk are specifically started to have been from a planet somewhat like Earth that also came across & defeated the Zentradi. i.e. they're not the Supervision Army.

That's not stated anywhere Keith, we've debated this fact before.

They had defeated Zentreadi forces, but it is not explained where they came from, only that they had some form of an empire and that they used mind controlled Zentreadi as their cannon fodder troops. Whether they were meant to be the actual SA, by the show's producers is a matter than could be debated since most of the senior staff worked on SDFM and were privy to Kawamori's back story about the SA.

The idea of mind controlled troops was later resurrected in Mac 7 as the means by which the PD were able to build their own forces at the beginning of the PD war (if we want to call it that, since the Civil War was replaced by the PD war).

Now a supposition by mikeszekely is that part of the composition of the SA were the subjegated races in the Stellar Republic who took the opportunity to "win" their freedom from those who occupied their worlds, by joining the PD. This supposition could very well include a "Marduk" faction that may have ultimately broke away from the remaining SA to forge their own territory once the PD were imprisoned.

There are enough open spaces in the history for such an idea.

Personally I like to believe the SA are composed of PC soldiers and Zentreadi, released from their mind control who are simply fighting to survive an enemy who vastly out numbers them.

They may possess at or near the tech level of the Republic PC's and have very powerful weapons, but are vulnerable to being overrun by the Zentreadi, if the are not very careful.

If you are the only enemy of a relentless force, no matter how much you may wish to throw down your arms, you may not be able to, since you would most certainly face annhilliation, if you did.

This may be the main motivation why the SA are still fighting after so many millennia. For them it's a fight for their very survival, not a war over ideaologies or for alien masters.

[VF5SS]

Taken from my website (Macropedia Section):

Protoculture

An advanced interstellar civilization whose species is considered the first sentient race to evolve in the universe. The protoculture existed hundreds of thousands of years before humanity achieved space flight and was responsible for guiding the evolvution of Humans and creating the Zentradi.

Hey don't forget the Zolans!

[bsu legato]

That's not stated anywhere Keith,

Sure it is. Keith Himself states that each and every time this subject comes up, and I'm sure in his mind if he repeats it enough it will become accepted as "fact."

[Mr March]

Hey don't forget the Zolans!

The Macropedia is not complete. There are still entries to do and I hope to include most of the major topics, including a little blurb entry for the Zolans.

[Zinjo]

Wasn't there micron sized stuff as well? In any case, I was just saying that there's circumstantial evidence to support the idea that the SA were zentradi or at least giants.

The SA was composed of both, the most compelling physical evidence is the SDF-1 which accomodates both microns and giants. It is entirely conceivable that that portion of the fortress that the civilians occupied was once the living quarters for the Zentreadi crew once upon a time.

Most likely PC commanders and Zentreadi grunts, all under the umbrella of the PD.

[Keith]

That's not stated anywhere Keith, we've debated this fact before.

They had defeated Zentreadi forces, but it is not explained where they came from, only that they had some form of an empire and that they used mind controlled Zentreadi as their cannon fodder troops. Whether they were meant to be the actual SA, by the show's producers is a matter than could be debated since most of the senior staff worked on SDFM and were privy to Kawamori's back story about the SA.

There is no debate on this issue, as Macross II has no:

-Protoculture

-Supervision Army

-Stellar Republic

No mention anywhere, no forshadowing, and most importantly, no real connection with any standing Macros canon. At which point we're left playing the "who's supposition is wilder" game. And considering nothing in standing Macross canon shows any inclination towards the Protoculture having a monarchistic society, nor is there anything showing the SA having a monarchistic society, that would leaev the Marduk, a race with their own name, religion, & society, to be a seperate race unto themselves. And since we know they "did" defeat the Zentradi using their own culture, and enslaved them in the attempt, the less wild supposition would be that they too were a somewhat earth-like culture that came across the Zentradi.

The idea of mind controlled troops was later resurrected in Mac 7 as the means by which the PD were able to build their own forces at the beginning of the PD war (if we want to call it that, since the Civil War was replaced by the PD war).

Difference being there, that the Protodevelin were not the Zentradi, nor where they the Protoculture. They had no large military base, so they "took" one. How much sense would it make for a race that wasn't under mind control to put their own troops under mind control to fight for them, when those tropos would essentially be the same race. That's basically what you're implying here, since the Marduk being SA/Zentradi would have no need to enslave themselves to fight for their own emperer, when they could just as easily use the giant technology for their soldiers (should they choose to) & have themselves fight sans-mind control.

Now a supposition by mikeszekely is that part of the composition of the SA were the subjegated races in the Stellar Republic who took the opportunity to "win" their freedom from those who occupied their worlds, by joining the PD. This supposition could very well include a "Marduk" faction that may have ultimately broke away from the remaining SA to forge their own territory once the PD were imprisoned.

And in turn is far too wild & baseless a speculation to even begin to touch, as it's based on absolutely nothing, and jumps the border to randon fanfiction.

There are enough open spaces in the history for such an idea.

There's enough open space to randomly assume the whole star trek series happened in there somewhere too, but I don't see you shoe-horning that in.

Personally I like to believe the SA are composed of PC soldiers and Zentreadi, released from their mind control who are simply fighting to survive an enemy who vastly out numbers them.

I've noticed this, and continue to point out that there's zero to support it, aside from your wishing it to be so.

They may possess at or near the tech level of the Republic PC's and have very powerful weapons, but are vulnerable to being overrun by the Zentreadi, if the are not very careful.

They're also running dangerously low on their supplies of marshmellows, and must find the lost PC marshmellow plant, or forever have boring cups of hot chocolate!

If you are the only enemy of a relentless force, no matter how much you may wish to throw down your arms, you may not be able to, since you would most certainly face annhilliation, if you did.

This may be the main motivation why the SA are still fighting after so many millennia. For them it's a fight for their very survival, not a war over ideaologies or for alien masters.

Or it could be that Gargamel has turned his attentions on the gummy bears to steal their gummy berry juice, so for he can use it to bounce out those damned smurf's once & for all!

[Ishimaru]

There is no debate on this issue, as Macross II has no:

-Protoculture

-Supervision Army

-Stellar Republic

No mention anywhere, no forshadowing, and most importantly, no real connection with any standing Macros canon. At which point we're left playing the "who's supposition is wilder" game. And considering nothing in standing Macross canon shows any inclination towards the Protoculture having a monarchistic society, nor is there anything showing the SA having a monarchistic society, that would leaev the Marduk, a race with their own name, religion, & society, to be a seperate race unto themselves. And since we know they "did" defeat the Zentradi using their own culture, and enslaved them in the attempt, the less wild supposition would be that they too were a somewhat earth-like culture that came across the Zentradi.

I'm confused on what to say here, Macross II didn't have to mention Protoculture, and you know in DYRL terms that protoculture was "love" or something like that so it was morally implications. And really the whole macross series never had a strong mentioning of the two at, excluding Macross 7 and anything else.

Theres more to it, clues are there to help us out. We never got straight answers now, why are you applying that we never got any evidence either...

[Mr March]

WHOA! Just one fracking second.

I fully understand the place of fan speculation starting from "Point A" (the beginning of Macross II) and going forward. And I don't really care about the rest of this discussion debating the virtues of one fan theory over another. However, no fan speculation is allowed to retcon Macross II canon going backward. Space War I happened, Minmay existed, the SDF-1 Macross exists and all the other events of SDFM/DYRL happened in the history of the Macross II universe. They utilize these facts as history in the anime. Therefore, the Protoculture as it existed at the time of SDFM/DYRL canon (pre-1992) also existed in Macross II canon, the Stellar Republic as it existed at the time of SDFM/DYRL canon (pre-1992) also existed in Macross II canon and the Supervision Army as it existed at the time of SDFM/DYRL canon (pre-1992) still exists in Macross II canon. Whether the Macross II creators dealt with these subjects or not makes no difference in the slightest. Macross Plus did not deal with such subjects, but they are part of Macross Plus canon and fans don't have any say in the matter. Fans don't get to pick and choose what elements of the established Macross canon (prior to 1992) will be accepted as part of Macross II. It's all or nothing. That is not up for debate, I don't care what fan speculation/theories/guessing comes AFTER that.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Mr March

[SpacyAce2012]

No mention anywhere, no forshadowing, and most importantly, no real connection with any standing Macros canon. At which point we're left playing the "who's supposition is wilder" game. And considering nothing in standing Macross canon shows any inclination towards the Protoculture having a monarchistic society, nor is there anything showing the SA having a monarchistic society, that would leaev the Marduk, a race with their own name, religion, & society, to be a seperate race unto themselves. And since we know they "did" defeat the Zentradi using their own culture, and enslaved them in the attempt, the less wild supposition would be that they too were a somewhat earth-like culture that came across the Zentradi.

And how is this wild supposition, bro? A lot can happen in 500,000 years.

While I believe that your theory has validity (that they were another race that subverted the Zents), I feel that the Marduk (within the context of MII canon) had more connection to the Stellar Republic than most think. Odds are good that they were PCs. While there is a possibility that they were another PC "project" (like Humanity and the Zolans), it isn't among my top choices. Or, at least, that's my view supported by circumstantial evidence.

The Marduk clearly used PC technology, and are well-versed with it. The fact that PC design concepts are followed to a "T", rather than OT being utilized in "native" design/engineering philosophies (like what was done with Human Overtechnology developments), indicates a close link to Protoculture civilization. If the Marduk were in the same boat as Mankind (or a non-related race that stumbled onto/given the technology), they had to possess a well developed/ established scientific base and tech industry to decipher it's secrets. Which means that it's far more likely that unique mecha/spacecraft would have been encountered, as opposed to obvious evolutionary development of Zentreadi systems. Sure, they may have had a Zentreadi flavor (like some Human VF designs), but that strong non-Zentreadi element would have been there. In Macross II the only "unique" flavor mecha we saw was the Gilgamesh power armors.

Another thing to take into account, is the fact we have no hard info on the governmental structure of the Stellar Republic. For all we know, a dynastic government may have existed. Or one where there was a monarchy, but it was largely a figurehead at that time (similar to the U.K. or Japan).

Possibilities (from my POV) include:

1- A surviving "militant faction" of the Stellar Republic that evolved a unique culture over the centuries. At some point, their control over the Zentreadi (possibly decendants of SR troops that fought alongside them during the war) became extreme. We know that the rebelling factions put aside their differences with the PC national government, and joined the efforts against the Supervision Army and the Protodevlin. The use of song as a weapon, and means of control, harkens back to the Anima Spiritia. It isn't inconceivable that Anima Spiritia could be twisted to serve a vile purpose, which is what the Marduk seem to do. Plus, we don't know what the agendas of these militant groups were in those days. For all we know, the Marduk faction may have been a group of super fascists or fanatical monarchists. That would explain their social structure in Macross II. In any case, this is my pet theory.

2-The Marduk were another race whose ancestors were "tinkered" with by the PC. And like Humanity, they gained OT at some point in history (since the fall of the Republic). I consider this to be only a fair possibility. The similarities in engineering are too close in my opinion. Of course, the Marduk may have simply played the "copy cat" for the sake of practicality, and simply improved upon these "knock off" designs over time. But their native tech level would have been much higher than Earth's (at the end of the 20th Century) to straight-up mimic Protoculture engineering principles from the get-go.

Of course, if the Marduk were genetically "tampered" with much earlier than the Human race (and Zolans), and the Marduk "sub-protoculture" was absorbed into the Republic's sphere of influence, then I could maybe see them having (and maintaining/further developing) Protoculture technology. But considering that the Stellar Republic maintained a slave race to keep order in their little empire, I find it a bit hard to imagine that they would share all their wonders with "sub-Protocultures". Or allow these same "sub-Protocultures" to develop a high level support structure to produce these wonders for their own use.

3- The Marduk were originally a classification of Zentreadi that somehow broke out of the mold, and evolved their own primitive hierarchy-based culture. Some elements of the Marduk's insane goals (destroy dangerous culture), and Ishtar's comments during the night time foray into the Macross, offer weak links to this. Music is something to be feared, and what music that is allowed is elevated to something that may only be utilized a society of select religious personnel (Alus Nova, Emulator priestesses). Anima Spiritia has proven to be extremely useful, so casting it out would be foolish from a military viewpoint (which is how unreformed Zents think). But due to the old Zentreadi fear of culture, it developed "mystical" properties. So, a religion developed around it (allowing the higher-ups to maintain control over music). This is similar to the pre-Reformation Church's policy of preserving, containing, and dissemination of potentially "dangerous" knowledge. However, I consider this to be the lowest possibility on my list.

4-They are a splinter faction of the SA. Some of the elements fits the SA mold. Since the Protodevlin's hold was broken, they developed a culture of their own, one that resembles their previous status (control/rule by a powerful entity, mind control, mental re-programming, etc.). Their weaponry, while similar to Zentreadi systems, are clearly superior (which fits some of what we know about the SA). They harnessed some of the power of Anima Spiritia, but still have an overall fear of it. Hence, their desire to destroy cultures possessing "dangerous" song (the development of music was a criteria to determine the "threat level" of a given culture, from what I gathered from tidbits in the series).

5-The Marduk are a non-PC race that gained Stellar Republic technology. Due to bad experiences with the SR, and/or the SA, the became genocidal xenophobes. If the Marduk were a subject race, this is a possibility. If not, I don't consider it high on my list of choices, for some of the same reasons as #2.

Anyway, all I'm doing here is proposing some possible answers to the mystery of the Marduk's origins. None of it should be taken as me presenting hard facts.

Edited September 23, 2007 by SpacyAce2012

[azrael]

Ummm, OK.

What I don't understand is how the Marduk even got into this conversation. As far as the continuity is concerned, the Marduk don't exist (or have yet to be presented) within the Studio Nue-continuity. It's like some people here are talking about Gundam Wing within the UC timeline. It doesn't work. It won't work and you really shouldn't try to make it work or you'll give everybody a nasty headache if you do. If you are going to talk about the SDFM/DYRL->MII path, please continue that path. But if you are going to follow the Studio Nue-timeline, please stay on that path, because you people are mixing 2 universes that shouldn't be mixed.

[Zinjo]

Ummm, OK.

What I don't understand is how the Marduk even got into this conversation. As far as the continuity is concerned, the Marduk don't exist (or have yet to be presented) within the Studio Nue-continuity. It's like some people here are talking about Gundam Wing within the UC timeline. It doesn't work. It won't work and you really shouldn't try to make it work or you'll give everybody a nasty headache if you do. If you are going to talk about the SDFM/DYRL->MII path, please continue that path. But if you are going to follow the Studio Nue-timeline, please stay on that path, because you people are mixing 2 universes that shouldn't be mixed.

I can see his point, in terms of how similar the two universes have become.

Mac II could be shoe horned into the Studio Nue continuity IF the following were to be changed to the existing anime and explained by dialogue:

1. The events do not take place on Earth, but in a remote colonial system, with little or very limited contact with Earth Gov, and a need for it to design and construct it's own military hardware independently of the Spacy design conventions.

2. The space fortress on the planet IS NOT the Macross, but only an SDF class ship of another designation.

3. The Marduk are explained within the established and revealed history of the Stellar Republic, it's civil war and PD war.

Unless those primary measures are taken, the show will remain the orphan of the franchise, outside the Studio Nue continuity, which has become the predominate continuity, warts and all.

Where the Zentreadi are a fairly simplistic and 2 dimensional race, the SA can be so much more complex and varied. It may be this very reason why SK has not done anything with them as he is looking for a story worthy enough to explore such diversity. Thus it is better that they remain an enigma than present them poorly to an audience.

Mac 7 was a good show for it's target audience, but I personally believe it presented the PD as much less of a galactic threat than they should have been.

[Mr March]

Like I said, Macross II is either the Macross continuity 1982-1992, or nothing. It's no salad bar

Edited September 24, 2007 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

Like I said, Macross II is either the Macross continuity 1982-1992, or nothing. It's no salad bar

I disagree, with some retcon dialogue changes in the original anime it could fit within established continuity as another story in the universe.

It would add a few more questions about the PC civilization, but hey that list is so long already, what's a few more....

As for the "Salad Bar", brother the history of the Macross universe is a "salad bar", with most of the tubs still missing....

Edited September 24, 2007 by Zinjo

[azrael]

I can see his point, in terms of how similar the two universes have become.

Ummm, no. You are missing my point. Even Mr. March got it.

Why are you insisting on "shoe horning" MII into the Studio Nue continuity? It doesn't belong there. Like the kid who tries to compare apples and oranges, it doesn't work. You can argue that the Marduk are the SA or protoculture but you are limited to SDFM/DYRL/MII. MII doesn't work in the SDFM/DYRL/M+/M7/MD7/M0/MF world because it doesn't belong there. It's another universe. The SA in the Studio Nue-continuity isn't the Marduk. This ain't a multiple-choice.

[Keith]

Ummm, no. You are missing my point. Even Mr. March got it.

Why are you insisting on "shoe horning" MII into the Studio Nue continuity? It doesn't belong there. Like the kid who tries to compare apples and oranges, it doesn't work. You can argue that the Marduk are the SA or protoculture but you are limited to SDFM/DYRL/MII. MII doesn't work in the SDFM/DYRL/M+/M7/MD7/M0/MF world because it doesn't belong there. It's another universe. The SA in the Studio Nue-continuity isn't the Marduk. This ain't a multiple-choice.

I agree, as everyone's argument on this issue has been based on a "what if" scenario that has no basis in any standing canon whatsoever. Macross II is far too vague in its own presentation to connect it with anything, let alone DYRL. And even then, DYRL was never intended to stand on its own, as its very existence was based on having seen the TV series. Since Macross II completely copies DYRL's formula (damn near scene for scene), its major failing is that it doesn't have its own TV series to use as reference material. it's assuming you know things that never happened so to speak.

There is no point in arguing what if the Marduk were

-Lost Protoculture

-Lost Zentradi

-A rebel Faction of Thundercats

Since there's no proof whatsoever to support any of those theories, and they all fall into the realm of facfiction. All that can truly be said about the Marduk is:

-They weren't Zentradi

-They weren't Protoculture

-They weren't Supervision Army

Since those facts would have to have been specifically spelled out if there was any attempt to claim them to be so. And since all of the above factions are known "not" to have weird religious culture's, the ownly probable answer, is that the Marduk were their own individual race, that also came across Zentradi.

[warpaint22]

It's a shame that Macross II is not part of the continuity of macross, it took me a long time to work out what was going on ( no access to internet back then). I was a big fan of the mecha and I really didn't mind the story but whan made me think that it was a carry on was thw fact that on the VHS I whatched it on they had a trailer for M+ ( no other trailers). It's been about 10 years since I saw it so maybe I wouldn't like it anymore but I'll always love the VF-2SS.

I'm not going to enter this topic as I just don't look as deep into the macross universe and have far less knoledge of the newer factions. One thing that I would like to know is, do the zentraedi fleets just roam aimlessly hunting for the enemy, it just seems that they have no central command just armies without a cause with no clear objective. They have no homeworld to protect, the civilisation they where made to gaurd is extinct, and as stated the area of space is so large that they could roam for hundreds of years with no contact of the enemy and most of all what would the zentraedi do once they won.

This is why I don't look to deeply as I just find more questions with no aswers and I think thats half the fun, but you are given explanations in macross II about why the marduk are going around conquering races and you can imagine that they have or came from a home world/worlds even though it's not stated. The only thing about macross II that I didn't like is that it took on a little of the robotech style with my comparison being the marduk and the robotech masters being controlers of the zentraedi.

To me it just seems that without a command that the zentraedi would be vulnerable to extinction themselves as they can't repair anything and eventually all factories and ships would be useless even from general wear and tear, but still to me not a motive to fight but to learn mechanics. Macross II gives cause for war and someone that can repair and maintain the weapons and the biggest thing I think supply food as I can't imagine that the zentraedi take time out to plant a few crops and they don't seem great at making allies. So the marduk fill this roll in macross II.

So I guess that there must be some sought of governing body still in control of the zentradi just in the thought of food supply, as I beleave in SDFM you see the zentraedi drinking what looks like wine. So I ask this, who could be suppling food? As having the knowledge of farming seems less likely than having the knowledge of machanics.

[Keith]

Long story short, after the war with the Protodevelin, the Zentradi rebelled against the notion of being "demilitarized," and obsorbed into the Protoculture as a regular race. After that point, they roamed around hunting down the Supervison Army, killing any remaining Protoculture who tried to "culture" them, and likely fighting with other roaming Zentradi fleets.

As for leadersihp structure's, fleet commanders like Bodolza filled that role, obviously commanding huge fleets. They didn't seem to have a problem maintaining food, and still had control of some mecha production facilities.

[warpaint22]

Long story short, after the war with the Protodevelin, the Zentradi rebelled against the notion of being "demilitarized," and obsorbed into the Protoculture as a regular race. After that point, they roamed around hunting down the Supervison Army, killing any remaining Protoculture who tried to "culture" them, and likely fighting with other roaming Zentradi fleets.

As for leadersihp structure's, fleet commanders like Bodolza filled that role, obviously commanding huge fleets. They didn't seem to have a problem maintaining food, and still had control of some mecha production facilities.

Thanks Keith.