Supervision Army

[mikeszekely]

So, I just finished watching the Animeigo Macross DVDs, and one thing was kinda bugging me. The Zentradi didn't just live to fight, they were obviously still fighting. When Hikaru, Max, Misa, and Kakizaki were taken to the Main Fleet, they even saw a battle that was big enough to destroy a planet. The only enemy they mentioned, though, were the Supervision Army, and even then, it was implied that they were still fighting them, even if it wasn't at that particular battle. At the end of the series, Global is concerned about running into other Zentradi fleets, but also the Supervision Army. And when they find another derelict Supervision Army gunboat on the way to capture the factory satellite, Vrlitlwhai and Exsedol think that it was recently destroyed.

The conclusion, then, is that the Supervision Army is still around, fighting the Zentradi.

However, by 2050, we've still yet to see them. The closest we get is the Varauta, in that they're mind-controlled members of an old Earth Megaroad fleet lead by the Protodeviln, and the Supervision Army were mind-controlled breakaways from the Stellar Republic led by the Protodeviln. But we also learned that the Stellar Republic (or what was left of it) defeated the Protodeviln with Anima Spiritia and sealed them on Varauta 4. According to the timeline at the Macross Compendium, this was something like 497,000 years prior to SDF Macross.

The only other information the Compendium gives is that the Zentradi were fighting the Supervision Army after the Protodeviln were defeated, so the Supervision Army was obviously active without their Protodeviln masters. It also tells us that while the Protoculture were all but extinct some 20,000 years after the fall of the Stellar Republic, and that the Zentradi were still fighting the Supervision Army after that, since they took out an automated reaction weapon facility (hence why the Zentradi lack reaction weapons and were so impressed to see that humankind had them), and 100,000 years after that they took out a Glaug factory (hence why Regulds and Gnerls were everywhere, but only aces got Glaugs).

If the Protoculture as a people were nearly extinct and the Protodeviln sealed away, who exactly comprised the Supervision Army forces? And if the Zentradi were still fighting them during the events of SDF Macross, where are they? We've seen in Macross 7 (and possibly Plus, although that could have just been a smaller band of renegades) that Spacy forces had run into other Zentradi fleets, as feared, but the Supervision Army seems largely forgotten by the 2040's.

[Mr March]

Well, the Supervision Army was always mostly made up of protoculture people and Zentradi controlled by the Protodeviln. We've also seen from Macross 7 that the Protodeviln themselves aren't all that numerous and it appears most of their minions are not directly possessed, but rather brainwashed and controlled via technological means. So even if one were to defeat and imprison the Protodeviln, does it not stand to reason you'd be far from defeating their army of leftovers?

Makes Macross a little more interesting than your average cliche in which killing the head of the snake suddenly results in the vast forces of evil all succumbing.

Now when talking about UNG contact with the Zentradi Army and the Supervision Army we have to be careful. We don't know for sure that Isamu's Zentradi enemies in Macross Plus were actually Zentradi Army. These Battle Suits could have been remnants of the Bodol Zer Main Fleet who either had contact with humans and built new Zentradi mecha or simply used old Zentradi mecha not shown up until now. It's also possible these Battle Suits from Macross Plus are part of Anti-U.N.-like organizations or other dissident factions. The only thing we know for sure is that they were Zentradi mecha and piloted by Zentradi, but the rest is a guessing game as far as I understand it.

And wouldn't the Varauta Army, for all intents and purposes, be the Supervision Army in theory if not in practice? It's still Humans and Zentradi controlled by the Protodeviln. Doesn't really matter if they only controlled so much space and had a limit to their fleet, they were still the same kind of enemy.

I do understand what you're saying and you're talking about the old Supervision Army that's still spread throughout the Galaxy fighting the trillions of Zentradi forces. But really, the Milky Way Galaxy is so incredibly huge it's no surprise at all that a few dozen star systems controlled by the UNG won't be noticed in a galaxy of 200-400 billion stars. In fact, it's a bloody miracle that anyone can find anything in a frontier that large. And it's not like the Zentradi and the Supervision Army have any interest in exploring the galaxy if it's not directly related to some military mission. There's probably vast expanses of the galaxy that have never even been explored by any sentient creature since creation began. Size also explains why this galaxy-wide conflict between the Zentradi and the Supervision Army can last this long. You're talking about territory over 100,000 light years in diameter with millions of war materiel production centers and fighting forces measured in the trillions. It could take thousands of millennium or more to come to any kind of conclusion, if ever!

Personally, I don't find it odd at all that there's been limited contact. In fact, with just a few dozen colonization fleets, I think the whole concept that the UN Spacy just happened to find Varauta pretty damn contrived.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

Yes (what he said), and, rewatch the first few episodes of SDF:M.

At the beginning of SDF:M, the Supervision Army is retreating from the part of the galaxy that the Earth is in. The Macross is a Supervision Gunboat deliberately abandoned and left on Earth as a booby-trap. It takes the Zentraedi 10 years to track the defold*, come to Earth, and spring the trap. By that time, humans have claimed the ship for their own, and reconstructed it; in the process, distracting and then destroying the entire Bodolzer Fleet in the area (100s, 1,000s, 10,000s, 100,000s??? light year area) and allowing the Supervision Army's booby trap to completely work.

As the Supervision Army knows that the area that Earth is in is full of a Zentraedi fleet larger than whatever remnants they have left, and that they strategically retreated from the area, we, the viewer, know that unless if the Supervision Army are completely stupid, they won't be showing up in the area of Earth again.

I've always interpreted what little we know on them, as the Supervision Fleet being composed of mostly Zentraedi ships and mecha. Therefore, they are evenly, or possibly slightly more well armed** than the standard Zentraedi fleet. The Zentraedi fleets have numerical advantage, with thousands, millions, possibly billions more ships, men and equipment. I see the war as that of attrition - whomever survives longer, wins. It also justifies the Supervision Army tactics that we've seen; retreat to a safe place to repair and if possible, expand.

* No telling where the rest of the (small? large? entire???) Supervision battle fleet defolded, as it's stated that the Zentraedi didn't detect a fold away from Earth. The rest of the Supervision fleet must've gone a lot further than the 10 light year booby trap, from their last engagement with the Zentraedi that were chasing them, and came to Earth.

** I figure that the brainwash Protoculture both fix, and are actively trying to upgrade the equipment. Thus looking at only the state of repair, Supervision Army equipment is better than the same of the Zentraedi. Upgrades? Well, some questions need to be answered first: do they have something like a factory satellite or 3 Star at their disposal? If yes...

Edited September 12, 2007 by sketchley

[MilSpex]

Fascinating. Will we ever see humankind ally with the Supervision Army?

[Ishimaru]

I'd like to point out one episode, forgot which one but I know it well enough.

Remember as the earth forces and zentradi were at peace? They came across a disbanded ship similar to that of the SDF designs, but did not examine it because it could be a "bobby trap". It's nearly the same exact repetition of what the SDF did when it fired it's main cannon on earth towards the Zentradi.

I know they didn't place that in the series for nothing.

If nothing else it was probably another Supervision ship, out of protoculture; is it possible that the Supervision was still in the galaxy after the SDF landed on earth? Maybe undetected due to the lack of any enerhy?

Was that ship there to be activated again? And as stated on Macross Compendium, they went back in search of the ship at the last coordinates they had.

But I got a rising suspicions that the ship didn't magically drift away.

This to me is probably the most interesting thing that ever occurred in Macross.

[Zinjo]

If you mean "out of protoculture" that it was abandoned by it's crew, then you'd be correct.

However, I like to believe that the SA are either awakened soldiers fighting for their very survival with weaponry superior to the vastly outnumbering Zentreadi or an army still under the influence of mind control, but to what extent is not known, possibly only the Zentreadi are still controlled like they had in Macross II and the PC have somehow bought into the Protodevlin's cause still, thus feel the need to continue fighting.

If mind control is still used by the SA, it is possible that Zentreadi prisoners are "programmed" into fighting for the SA, thus replenishing their ranks.

It is also possible that they may still possess reaction weaponry, which is why Vritai was so intent on capturing the Macross in the first place.

If they are awakened PC and Zents then they become sympathetic characters just trying to survive and impossible war, which is a decent premise for a show.

It is true that the galaxy is so massive that for emigration fleets to happen upon a SA or even a Zentreadi fleet would be somewhat rare unless they are being tracked by their fold jumps. However from a production point of view it seems to me that an encounter with the SA is far overdue in the Macross universe.

[mikeszekely]

Everyone's making valid points. But like I already mentioned, Global was obviously very worried about the Supervision Army, and it wasn't a concern that Exsedol was ready to dismiss.

I guess what I'm getting at is, even if the UN or a colony fleet hasn't run across them yet, the Supervision Army is most likely still out there.

I'd like to point out one episode, forgot which one but I know it well enough.

Remember as the earth forces and zentradi were at peace? They came across a disbanded ship similar to that of the SDF designs, but did not examine it because it could be a "bobby trap". It's nearly the same exact repetition of what the SDF did when it fired it's main cannon on earth towards the Zentradi.

I know they didn't place that in the series for nothing.

If nothing else it was probably another Supervision ship, out of protoculture; is it possible that the Supervision was still in the galaxy after the SDF landed on earth? Maybe undetected due to the lack of any enerhy?

Was that ship there to be activated again? And as stated on Macross Compendium, they went back in search of the ship at the last coordinates they had.

But I got a rising suspicions that the ship didn't magically drift away.

This to me is probably the most interesting thing that ever occurred in Macross.

I'm pretty sure that the episode is "Satan's Dolls," and yeah, that's one of my favorite episodes too.

As the Supervision Army knows that the area that Earth is in is full of a Zentraedi fleet larger than whatever remnants they have left

This is an assumption. For all we know, the Supervision Army is actually winning.

The Protoculture had incredible technology and a Republic that spanned the galaxy. Even if the Supervision Army was just a fraction of the Stellar Republic, they likely had access to tremendous resources. We know that after over 400,000 years of fighting, that the Supervision Army hasn't destroyed all of the Zentradi factory satellites. It's likely that the Zentradi haven't destroyed all the Supervision Army's either, and with actual Protoculture in their forces (at least for a time), they might have even had the technology to build more.

It also justifies the Supervision Army tactics that we've seen; retreat to a safe place to repair and if possible, expand.

We haven't seen those tactics. Your interpretation is valid, but it's just as likely that the Boddole Main Fleet was fighting a group of Supervision Army ships, and one badly damaged gunboat tried to fold away. The survivors may have abandoned ship before it crashed on earth, or were killed for any number of reasons. The "booby trap" might have been programmed before abandoning ship, or the crew might have known they were going to die. The UN knew that their were giants aboard the ASS-1... it might have been from that big airlock that Hikaru snuck out of to get the tuna, but it's also possible that bodies were found aboard the ship. We're never told either way.

As for taking 10 years for Vrlitlwhai's fleet to track the ASS-1 down, perhaps the battle was so epic that it took ten years to finish before Vrlitlwhai (or anyone else) could be spared to go after any stragglers.

Now when talking about UNG contact with the Zentradi Army and the Supervision Army we have to be careful. We don't know for sure that Isamu's Zentradi enemies in Macross Plus were actually Zentradi Army. These Battle Suits could have been remnants of the Bodol Zer Main Fleet who either had contact with humans and built new Zentradi mecha or simply used old Zentradi mecha not shown up until now. It's also possible these Battle Suits from Macross Plus are part of Anti-U.N.-like organizations or other dissident factions. The only thing we know for sure is that they were Zentradi mecha and piloted by Zentradi, but the rest is a guessing game as far as I understand it.

Actually, we don't have much canon material to fill the gap between 2012 and 2040. It's possible that the UN did encounter the Supervision Army, and that those Zentradi were Supervision Army forces.

Indeed, perhaps humanity had encountered some Supervision Army fleet prior to filming DYRL. That would explain why the Meltrandi ships look so different from the Boddole Fleet's ships. (Remember, in SDF Macross, Lap'lamis' fleet is made up of the more traditional Zentradi ships.) And we know that it wasn't just a creative license for the movie, since the Chloe fleet used the DYRL Meltrandi style. This would also reconcile the idea that the Macross was a Supervision army ship and a Meltrandi ship (although the existence of Protoculture might still be a government secret, so telling the public that the Macross was a Meltrandi ship might just be government spin).

The bottom line is, we don't know. I just kinda Kawamori and co would give us another piece of that puzzle.

[Keith]

The episode was "Viva Maria," when Britai picked up the gang & took them to capture the factory satellite.

[Mr March]

Ishimaru

The ship you're refering to isn't probably a Supervision Army ship, it IS a Supervision Army Ship. In fact, it's the exact same class as the ASS-1/SDF-1 Macross that crashed on Earth (a Gun Destroyer). It appears in Episode 30 of SDFM; see details and a picture via the link to my website below:

Supervision Army Derelict

Where does it say on the Macross Compendium that they went back to search for the ship? I don't remember that, but I'd like to read about it.

mikeszekely

Yes, the Supervision Army is still out there, as is the Zentradi Army. But Humanity existed for thousands of years without anyone bothering them except the AFOS (TV continuity) or a Protoculture ship that stopped on Earth (DYRL continuity). Granted, it may make for interesting stories should the UNG finally encounter the Supervision Army or more Zentradi Army forces, but there's lots of other interesting stories to tell as well.

Actually, we don't have much canon material to fill the gap between 2012 and 2040. It's possible that the UN did encounter the Supervision Army, and that those Zentradi were Supervision Army forces.

Indeed, perhaps humanity had encountered some Supervision Army fleet prior to filming DYRL. That would explain why the Meltrandi ships look so different from the Boddole Fleet's ships. (Remember, in SDF Macross, Lap'lamis' fleet is made up of the more traditional Zentradi ships.) And we know that it wasn't just a creative license for the movie, since the Chloe fleet used the DYRL Meltrandi style. This would also reconcile the idea that the Macross was a Supervision army ship and a Meltrandi ship (although the existence of Protoculture might still be a government secret, so telling the public that the Macross was a Meltrandi ship might just be government spin).

The bottom line is, we don't know. I just kinda Kawamori and co would give us another piece of that puzzle.

After 25 years of the franchise, I find it extremely unlikely the UNG ever encountered the Supervision Army. The only way we'll see some kind of retconn like that is if a video game features them or the new Macross series does retconn (which is certainly possible). Other than that, we have to stick what is known, not what might be.

As for the Meltrandi and all the implications of DYRL? impacting the franchise, that's just one big mess. The debates about what is real Macross and what is DYRL Macross have lead to legendary discussions on this website which always ultimately conclude there is no rhyme nor reason to the ultimate "correct" continuity. Basically, if the mecha/character designs are more interesting/reimagined, Kawamori and Co. have adopted them as part of the main Macross universe. We, as the audience, are just meant to imagine these mecha/character designs were part of Macross all along. This is why the SDF Macross (Film Version) appears in Macross Plus, why Exedol appears green in Macross 7, why the Chlore Fleet is using Meltrandi ships in Macross 7 Encore, et cetera. You just go with it, even if the whole Zentradi/Meltrandi thing contradicts the entire SDFM series. Just assume it fits in somehow and leave it at that, because it's clear that's all the thought that Kawamori and Co. have put into it.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

This is an assumption. For all we know, the Supervision Army is actually winning.

We haven't seen those tactics. Your interpretation is valid, but it's just as likely that the Boddole Main Fleet was fighting a group of Supervision Army ships, and one badly damaged gunboat tried to fold away. ...

As for taking 10 years for Vrlitlwhai's fleet to track the ASS-1 down, perhaps the battle was so epic that it took ten years to finish before Vrlitlwhai (or anyone else) could be spared to go after any stragglers.

From the Macross Compendium:

The Zentradi Army's Vrlitwhai Fleet arrives within the Solar System. During its enemy search operation for Supervision Army survivors, the fleet happened to detect traces of an Supervision Army gun destroyer's (Macross's) defold reaction from 10 light years away and came in pursuit. Macross's Main Cannon automatically fires.

http://macross.anime.net//story/chronology/2009/index.html

Survivors implies the losers, and I read it as the surviving Supervision ships, after one or many a grand, spectacular final battle. I agree that my original post may be reading too much into their tactics (repair may be beyond their capabilities at the time,) but given that they are survivors on the run, and that we've seen the Bodolza Fleet, and at least one more grand Zentraedi Fleet in the area of Earth, my assertations are logically sound.

Indeed, perhaps humanity had encountered some Supervision Army fleet prior to filming DYRL. That would explain why the Meltrandi ships look so different from the Boddole Fleet's ships. (Remember, in SDF Macross, Lap'lamis' fleet is made up of the more traditional Zentradi ships.) And we know that it wasn't just a creative license for the movie, since the Chloe fleet used the DYRL Meltrandi style. This would also reconcile the idea that the Macross was a Supervision army ship and a Meltrandi ship (although the existence of Protoculture might still be a government secret, so telling the public that the Macross was a Meltrandi ship might just be government spin).

Macross Compendium:

The movie also employed the East River training ship to protray Boddole Zer's mothership, using holography to alter the ship's outer appearance.

http://macross.anime.net/story/encyclopedi...love/index.html

Couple that with the use of the "Meltraendi" LST Carrier as a transport ship in the included-in-the-cannon-continuity VF-X2, and a bunch of questions get raised. Are the Meltraendi ships really UN Spacy ships? Are only some of them UN Spacy ships, and other ones non-Bodolza Fleet Zentraedi ships? Things would be a lot clearer if the Fleet of Strongest Women episode doesn't exist to muddy the waters... The only thing that is clear, is that different Zentraedi Fleet have different motifs and equipment.

[mikeszekely]

Yes, the Supervision Army is still out there, as is the Zentradi Army. But Humanity existed for thousands of years without anyone bothering them except the AFOS (TV continuity) or a Protoculture ship that stopped on Earth (DYRL continuity).

I don't think continuity was retconned to say that AFOS was all that came to Earth. AFOS was simply what was left behind when the Protoculture left.

We could start another thread to discuss the finer points of Macross Zero, but we know that the Protoculture had very advanced genetic technology, and they were as likely to grow a weapon a build one. AFOS was a tool used by the Protoculture to facilitate the genetic engineering of humanity's ancestors to make them more like Protoculture, and then was left to monitor humanity's development and serve as a failsafe to destroy the experiment if humanity got to a point where they could travel the stars but hadn't stopped fighting.

In fact, I don't think AFOS could have acted alone. While it does seem to possess some intelligence, it actually seems to require a pilot. They make it painfully obvious that even if the head was reconnected to the body, AFOS needed Sara to really take any kind of action. It had to be Sara because only the line of priestesses had the Alpha Bombay blood type, the same type that was in AFOS. I'd speculate (speculation only, mind you) that while humanity as a whole had been engineered to be Protoculture compatible, that the priestesses are directly descended from Protoculture.

And perhaps no one bothered Earth because Earth was on the fringe of Protoculture space? The Protoculture seemed to start from the middle and work their way out, while humanity is starting on the edge, and working its way toward the center of the galaxy.

Again, the Stellar Republic was huge... I don't think you can simply say that because the galaxy is big, the UNG wouldn't run into other Zentradi or the Supervision Army. The deeper into former Protoculture space the colony fleets go, the more likely they are to run into Zentradi or Supervision Army forces, as well as find relics of Protoculture civilization like the temple on Rax.

Survivors implies the losers, and I read it as the surviving Supervision ships, after one or many a grand, spectacular final battle.

You're still reading into it. The Compendium doesn't say what Supervision Army survivors Vrlitlwhai was hunting. You admit that you read it as the survivors of a grand, final battle, but it could have been the survivors of a skirmish, or the Boddole fleet might have come across the remnants of a Supervision Army fleet that was dramatically weakened from wiping out different Zentradi main fleet. We have no way of knowing what the true strength of the Supervision Army forces are.

What's more, we know the Zentradi ships can fold. They folded to the moon at the beginning of SDF Macross, they folded to the Main fleet, they folded back to the Sol system, the Main fleet folded to Earth, etc. It's illogical to think that the Vrlitlwhai fleet detected the defold from 10 light years out, and then took 10 years to track it down because they were traveling at sublight speeds when we saw them fold to the moon in the first place. I would say, rather, that it took them 10 years to track that Supervision Army ship down because they were busy doing something else... like fighting the Supervision Army.

The only thing that is clear, is that different Zentraedi Fleet have different motifs and equipment.

That's the simplest explanation. It's also probably correct, and I'd agree with it. But just to play devil's advocate, that's not clear, and we really don't know that for sure. As far as actual Zentradi go, every Zentradi ship encountered (that we know of) had been the style of the Boddole fleet, until the Chloe fleet, which happened to use Meltrandi ships like the ones in DYRL (which tells us that even if some of the ships in DYRL were commercial Earth ships using holography to look alien, the UNG must have encountered at least some Meltrandi ships before). Again, I agree that it's most likely that different Zentradi fleets supplied by different factory satellites may have ships using different technologies, but it is at least a possibility that the disparity between the two styles is the disparity between Zentradi Army and Supervision Army ships.

As for why they'd turn up in VF-X2, we know that even as the Supervision Army has still been fighting, that the Protoculture themselves are all but extinct. It's possible that a Supervision Army fleet, crewed by Zentradi, would behave similarly to a Zentradi fleet, and culture shock would affect them the way it affected Vrlitlwhai's fleet. Supervision Army Zentradi may have defected to the UN Spacy, and the UN may have captured Supervision Army ships, which may have fallen into Anti-UN hands. This explanation would also apply if the Meltrandi ships were just different Zentradi army ships.

[sketchley]

What's more, we know the Zentradi ships can fold. They folded to the moon at the beginning of SDF Macross, they folded to the Main fleet, they folded back to the Sol system, the Main fleet folded to Earth, etc. It's illogical to think that the Vrlitlwhai fleet detected the defold from 10 light years out, and then took 10 years to track it down because they were traveling at sublight speeds when we saw them fold to the moon in the first place. I would say, rather, that it took them 10 years to track that Supervision Army ship down because they were busy doing something else... like fighting the Supervision Army.

So far, you're the only one who's said that the Zentraedi fleet took 10 years to travel to Earth. Again, refer to the Compendium quote:

fleet happened to detect traces of an Supervision Army gun destroyer's (Macross's) defold reaction from 10 light years away and came in pursuit.

It means that the fleet relies on sensors that detect phenomenon that travels at light speed and that they came right away by the means shown in SDF:M. (10 years later + 10 light years away = 0 years of travel)

Yes, they were doing something else: an "enemy search operation for Supervision Army survivors."

It's ok to be the Devil's Advocate. Though, for some, possibly many of us, some of the things mentioned are a given and we are aware of them. I think we all avoid them because it brings too much of the "all for nothing" aspect to the discussion/debate, and it makes reaching a concensus (partial, or otherwise), impossible.

[Mr March]

I don't think continuity was retconned to say that AFOS was all that came to Earth. AFOS was simply what was left behind when the Protoculture left.

Again, the Stellar Republic was huge... I don't think you can simply say that because the galaxy is big, the UNG wouldn't run into other Zentradi or the Supervision Army. The deeper into former Protoculture space the colony fleets go, the more likely they are to run into Zentradi or Supervision Army forces, as well as find relics of Protoculture civilization like the temple on Rax.

The AFOS is by definition retconn, though its existence is certainly plausible and perfectly acceptable in Macross, IMO.

Ah, but I never said the UNG would not run into the SA or ZA. Only that it's unlikely they'll do so until they grow much larger and have far more ships. This is excluding the need for the UNG to encounter the SA and remaining ZA that would be written into in any potential story, of course

Yes, the Stellar Republic is huge, but it's long gone. If the SA and ZA were really so pervasive within the Galaxy, they would have found humanity long before the ASS-1 crash. Correspondingly, a mere 40 years of space exploration is not likely enough time for the UNG to encounter the SA and ZA in such a large galaxy as ours, especially with the UNG's (comparitively) limited resources.

[Mr March]

Oh, I'd be scared speaking about sensor systems in Macross as light-speed limited. SDFM makes use of effectively super luminal sensor systems in the first episode and Macross 7 specifically mentions super dimensional radar. There are also numerous examples of ships defolding far outside of instantaneous detection range (which would be half a light second/150,000 kilometers) that are detected the moment they appear, often behind massive stellar bodies. The Zentradi Adoclass fleet was detected folding space from behind a moon far outside combat ranges instantenously as was the City 7 detected by the Battle 7, on the far side of a star no less!

Edited September 12, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

So far, you're the only one who's said that the Zentraedi fleet took 10 years to travel to Earth. Again, refer to the Compendium quote:

It means that the fleet relies on sensors that detect phenomenon that travels at light speed and that they came right away by the means shown in SDF:M. (10 years later + 10 light years away = 0 years of travel)

Oh, I'd be scared speaking about sensor systems in Macross as light-speed limited. SDFM makes use of effectively super luminal sensor systems in the first episode and Macross 7 specifically mentions super dimensional radar. There are also numerous examples of ships defolding far outside of instantaneous detection range (which would be half a light second/150,000 kilometers) that are detected the moment they appear, often behind massive stellar bodies. The Zentradi Adoclass fleet was detected folding space from behind a moon far outside combat ranges instantenously as was the City 7 detected by the Battle 7, on the far side of a star no less!

Which is why I assumed the Zentradi detected the defold when it happened in 1999, which would mean that it took them 10 years to getting around to investigating. The idea that the defold happened and that it took the Zentradi 10 years to detect it never crossed my mind.

If the SA and ZA were really so pervasive within the Galaxy, they would have found humanity long before the ASS-1 crash. Correspondingly, a mere 40 years of space exploration is not likely enough time for the UNG to encounter the SA and ZA in such a large galaxy as ours, especially with the UNG's (comparitively) limited resources.

Not necessarily. Macross 7 tells us that the emigration fleets were heading toward the galactic core, and that seems to be the direction that the Macross 5 and 7 fleets came to Rax, where the Protoculture temple was, and where the Megaroad 13 and Macross 7 fleets found Varauta, where the Protodeviln were sealed. The Protoculture seem to have started at the center of the galaxy and spread out, and Earth seemed to be distant frontier for them, as only one survey ship happened upon it and even then the records of it were lost. If the Supervision Army was fighting the Stellar Republic, it'd be closer to home. And if the Zentradi Army was fighting the Supervision Army, they'd also be more abundant coreward simply to be where the Supervision Army was. Earth might not have been bothered by either faction because it's too out of the way.

To use an smaller-scale example, if America was fighting a war in Europe, you're unlikely to find either the American Army or a European Army in Australia.

However, if the emigration fleets are headed coreward, then they would be more likely to run into Zentradi or Supervision Army forces simply because they'd be heading into the heart of their territory. With Superdimensional Radar to expand the range of their sensors, I find it hard to believe that none of the 37 long-range fleets wouldn't have found some sign of the Supervision Army.

[sketchley]

FYI, active sensors, if obeying the laws of physics, have a limited range of effectiveness. Passive sensors (which light detection is), are "range-less", pending nothing else gets in the way or drowns out whatever is being detected.

You'll also note the caveat that I put into the sentence.

All the examples given of instantaneous detection outside of the half-light second range are still well within 10 light years, are they not?

The only exception that comes to mind is when Diamond Force used the fold boosters to get to City 7. The fold boosters being maxed out at 20 light years, and the animation pretty strongly implying that they made a 20 light year fold. Which means that the City 7 was detected at about 20 light years distance.

However, apples and oranges. We're not talking about UN Spacy technology after 35+ years of R&D here (and we all know that UN Spacy technology, in some aspects, has advanced much farther than Zentraedi technology.) We're talking about Zentraedi technology prior to contact with Earth.

In addition, claiming that the Zentraedi have FTL detection capabilities with unlimited range is quite destabilizing, as it guarantees that they have god-like powers, being able to see all activity, everywhere. And given what we've seen, even with the more advanced UN Spacy technology in Macross 7, no one has had that ability in Macross. Within a finite range, yes.

Therefore to clarify my point: yes, Zentraedi ships have FTL detection technology, but that FTL detection technology has an active range of less than 10 light years.

[Mr March]

mikeszekely

That's assumption at best. We have no way of knowing how diverse/localized the Stellar Republic was (which would exist only in the smallest fragments of it's former self). Like I said, it's just not likely the UNG bump into anyone basing it on a numbers scenario, even traveling all the way across, or to the center of, the galaxy. I think we really need to put some numbers to this, because I don't think people realize the incredible size of the Milky Way Galaxy. That and science fiction in general has done a really good job of making galaxies feel really, really small by abusing even the greater capabilities of their own fictional technology.

Let's use some canon figures and stretch it out to some amazing, best-possible-circumstances scenario for contact.

The Bodol Zer Fleet is 4,795,122 ships. The book Macross Perfect Memory states there are some 1,000 to 2,000 some ships of this class commanding fleets in the Zentradi Army and the film DYRL? confirms this figure as well. We're going to assume each Zentradi fleet is identical in size. So, at most, that gives us 9,590,244,000 Zentradi ships in the Milky Way Galaxy. For the sake of argument, we're going to assume the Supervision Army has just as many. So that gives us basically 19 billion space ships between the two Armies. Now, let's throw out a really impossible scenario and say that both the Zentradi Army and the Supervision Army suddenly decide - at the perfect moment in their 400,000 year old war - that starting in the year 2012 they are both going to place one of their ships around one star in the galaxy until they exhaust their fleets AND they have decided to maintain these positions for the next 40 years...

I know, I know, this is beyond outrageous. Just bear with me here...

Now, in a galaxy of 400 billion stars, the combined forces of the ZA and the SA can only fill 19 billion of those systems in the impossible scenario described above. That means that a single ship exploring the galaxy - within the impossible scenario - would have a mere 0.0475 % chance of encountering a ZA or SA ship. Yes, that's half of a half a percent chance under impossible circumstances. Well, that about does it

Digressing, if we go back into reason, put the fleets back together, factor in factory satellites, surviving protoculture ruins and whatever else might serve as a point of contact, it will never come close to approaching the odds of the impossible scenario.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mr March

[Mr March]

Therefore to clarify my point: yes, Zentraedi ships have FTL detection technology, but that FTL detection technology has an active range of less than 10 light years.

Perhaps, but no way of knowing. Regardless, your original theory doesn't work with light speed sensors. It would take a light speed propagation 10 years just to reach a target 10 light years away. The return would take another 10 years to get back to the radar array that sent out the propagation, so you're looking at 20 years altogether. So yes, FTL Zentradi sensors is a must.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

What part of passive sensors are you not understanding?

[Mr March]

What part of passive sensors are you not understanding?

EDIT: Nevermind

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

However, apples and oranges. We're not talking about UN Spacy technology after 35+ years of R&D here (and we all know that UN Spacy technology, in some aspects, has advanced much farther than Zentraedi technology.) We're talking about Zentraedi technology prior to contact with Earth.

Therefore to clarify my point: yes, Zentraedi ships have FTL detection technology, but that FTL detection technology has an active range of less than 10 light years.

Still assumption. Undoubtedly, the FTL sensors of the Zentradi, the Supervision Army, the UN Spacy of 2009, and the UN Spacy of 2045 have a finite range. But the specifics of that range are not given. There is a logic to your reasoning, but only if we accept your initial assumption that it took the Vrlitlwhai fleet 10 years to detect the ASS-1's defold as a fact. We can just as easily assume that their range was greater than 10 light years, and that they couldn't pursue for another 10 years. We could also assume that the Vrlitlwhai fleet was within 10 light years, your limit is fact, and it still took them 10 years after detecting the ASS-1's defold to pursue it.

Fact is, we don't know. I'm merely curious about the possibilities.

That's assumption at best.

I'm not claiming that's it's not an assumption. But it's sound reasoning. Looking at the timeline on the Compendium, it's nearly 200 years after the Protoculture began using FTL tech to colonize the galaxy, and nearly 100 years after the formation of the Stellar Republic, before a lone survey ship even stops by Earth. This implies that it's somewhat out of the way, and since the war with the Supervision Army and the Protodeviln began a year or two after the survey ship arrived, further expansion probably wasn't a priority, especially since 85% of the Protoculture were killed.

What's more, the atlas provided at the Compendium seems to list locations starting at the galactic center and working out to Earth. That would mean that Varauta is coreward of Earth, and Rax is coreward of Varauta. We know that the Protoculture presence was stronger on both of those worlds.

We have no way of knowing how diverse/localized the Stellar Republic was (which would exist only in the smallest fragments of it's former self).

Granted, but we know that it included Varauta, and that they at minimum built a temple on Rax.

And I know it's an assumption on my part, but I always figured that the reason the emigration fleets were headed toward the galactic core was because they wanted to learn more about the Protoculture, and were actively seeking planets that may have been part of the Stellar Republic.

Let's use some canon figures and stretch it out to some amazing, best-possible-circumstances scenario for contact.

Great, except for a couple of things. For starters, guessing that the Supervision Army has a number of ships equal to the Zentradi army is still just that, a guess. Yes, it absolutely could be a smaller number, but it could also be a larger number. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever about the military strength of the Supervision Army. And, although we previously admitted we don't know how diverse/localized the Stellar Republic was, you're still assuming that the heaviest concentration of Zentradi and Supervision Army wouldn't be closer to wherever the core of the old Stellar Republic was, or wherever their bases of power might be. Your percentage of a chance of finding a Supervision Army ship or a Zentradi ship only stands if they really are in those numbers, they really are only one ship to a star, and they remain stationary. The fact is, the percentage would fluctuate as the UN ships would move away or toward a concentration of ships, or as Zentradi/Supervision Army ships moved toward or away from them.

EDIT: I noticed a math error in your calculations... 19/400=0.0475, but you have to move the decimal to show a percent (ex 1/10=0.1=10%), so your calculation would actually yield a 4.75% chance that a particular star would have a ship. When you figure that 37 fleets were launched by 2038, and that each fleet likely visited more than one star, well, let's round down to 4%, and say that between the 37 fleets they've explored 300 stars... that'd be about 12 encounters with either a Zentradi or a Supervision Army ship.

Edited September 13, 2007 by mikeszekely

[Keith]

Re: DYRL Meltrandi ship designs:

This one is explained easily enough, especially since 7 officially includes them in the mainline canon. We know that the Protoculture had a civil war, and developed two distinct cultures. We know that each side used Zentradi to battle proxy for them, and we know that the Zentradi were split into male female groups.

SDF Macross only introduces one distinct ship style, be them in different colors, with different mecha styles for the male & female Zentradi. DYRL then introduced the notion that the males fought for one side of the Protoculture, while the females fought for the other side (using entirely different ship stylings). This is reconsiled in Macross 7, which explains that the two factions of Protoculture, and as such, two factions of Zentradi, were banded together after severe losses to the Protoculture Protodevelin. It's the very same period where the restraints against attacking Protoculture were removed from the Zentradi. In this circumstance, it's very easily concievable to have a male/female combined fleet such as the Gorg Bodolza fleet, since there really was no choice at the time, but to consolodate & combine forces.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Keith

[mikeszekely]

Re: DYRL Meltrandi ship designs:

This one is explained easily enough, especially since 7 officially includes them in the mainline canon. We know that the Protoculture had a civil war, and developed two distinct cultures. We know that each side used Zentradi to battle proxy for them, and we know that the Zentradi were split into male female groups.

SDF Macross only introduces one distinct ship style, be them in different colors, with different mecha styles for the male & female Zentradi. DYRL then introduced the notion that the males fought for one side of the Protoculture, while the females fought for the other side (using entirely different ship stylings). This is reconsiled in Macross 7, which explains that the two factions of Protoculture, and as such, two factions of Zentradi, were banded together after severe losses to the Protoculture. It's the very same period where the restraints against attacking Protoculture were removed from the Zentradi. In this circumstance, it's very easily concievable to have a male/female combined fleet such as the Gorg Bodolza fleet, since there really was no choice at the time, but to consolodate & combine forces.

Not a bad idea... although it implies that the UN has encountered more than the Boddole and Chloe fleets. If not more Zentradi, why not an eventual encounter with the Supervision Army? I have to admit, I'd really like to see it in Frontier.

[Ishimaru]

Ishimaru

The ship you're refering to isn't probably a Supervision Army ship, it IS a Supervision Army Ship. In fact, it's the exact same class as the ASS-1/SDF-1 Macross that crashed on Earth (a Gun Destroyer). It appears in Episode 30 of SDFM; see details and a picture via the link to my website below:

Supervision Army Derelict

Where does it say on the Macross Compendium that they went back to search for the ship? I don't remember that, but I'd like to read about it.

Ah yes thanks for correcting me.

Here is where I got my source:

ASS-1/2

Probably the largest amount of information on this specific ship.

But to answer your question more specifically from quote.

A UN Spacy task force dispatched later to salvage the ship failed to find the wreck after extensively searching at and near the coordinates Vrlitwhai reported. The location of the wreck (if it even still exists) is currently unknown. Since 2012 no UN Spacy colony missions or combat fleets have reported encountering any craft (wrecked or otherwise) similar to the original ASS-1.

This is where it got real interesting.

I got rising suspicions that the ship didn't just disappear after all, I mean what of the chances of them finding the ship during the mission?

They even did a hard search of the surrounding area and more, it just doesn't make any sense to me that it would just be out of sight like that, sure it would drift on and on but I'm sure they could have found it if even it was still drifting.

But even then it was described they came back "later" if the grammar was done correctly so I'm assuming not too long after the mission or the end of series they went on to do the search.

Oh it just doesn't make sense something is definitely missing, where did that ship go...?

Edited September 13, 2007 by Ishimaru

[MilSpex]

I am so confused.

Edited September 13, 2007 by MilSpex

[Mr March]

I'm not claiming that's it's not an assumption. But it's sound reasoning.

Oops, bit off with the percentage, but the numbers are sound for the impossible scenario. The assumptions I made above are intentional throwaway calculations mike, I'm not saying that my position is: "There are equal ZA and SA army ships!" nor am I suggesting the UNG only has one ship (which you know I understand the UNG has entire fleets). This is becoming an intentionally obtuse discussion and it doesn't need to be. These assumptions in the impossible scenario are just for the sake of a "what if" and not to be taken literally, only accepted in as much as they help illustrate to you a point that I don't believe you're considering when you say; "They should have encountered the SA by now". You have to look at the extremes to which it takes to get contact and realize the incredibly imposible scenario (and favorable assumptions) that have to be made just to get that 4%. Like I said, when we go back down to plausibility we lose entire orders of magnitudes in the percentiles and you get chances like one in a million and a few dozen fleets aren't going to change that with any significance.

Also, I never said the Stellar Republic is more dense in the center of the Galaxy; that's what YOU are saying. I'm saying we don't know.

I'm going to digress and restate my opinion that's it not unreasonable that the UNG hasn't run into more SA and ZA ships in a mere 40 years. Yes, it could make a good story, but it's not like it's supposed to have happened by now.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mr March

[Mr March]

Ah yes thanks for correcting me.

Here is where I got my source:

ASS-1/2

Probably the largest amount of information on this specific ship.

But to answer your question more specifically from quote.

That is not the Macross Compendium, Ishimaru. That link you posted is from an old Role-Playing Game website with made up information that is not official. Now I understand why I never heard of them going back to investigate the Supervision Army Derelict, because it's not officially what happened. Here is the Macross Compendium, that has official information about Macross:

Macross Compendium

[Mr March]

I am so confused.

Yeah, Im getting the feeling things are being intentionally derailed for the sake of arguement.

[Lonewolf]

Yeah, Im getting the feeling things are being intentionally derailed for the sake of arguement.

Isn't that always the case Mr March... ?

[sketchley]

Yeah, Im getting the feeling things are being intentionally derailed for the sake of arguement.

Agreed.

In participating in this debate, I have come to a greater understanding of the Zentraedi employing the tactics of stealth (thereby they could have FTL sensors with a range greater than 10 light years, but they choose not to use them for tactical reasons) with support from the anime. However, as a) it's off topic and b) most likely going to be picked apart and argued, I'm opting not to discuss it further.

[Mr March]

Agreed all. I guess it's just not my day

[Valkyrie addict]

yeah, I'm confused too.... too many holes in the macross universe continuity

[Zinjo]

Re: DYRL Meltrandi ship designs:

This one is explained easily enough, especially since 7 officially includes them in the mainline canon. We know that the Protoculture had a civil war, and developed two distinct cultures. We know that each side used Zentradi to battle proxy for them, and we know that the Zentradi were split into male female groups.

SDF Macross only introduces one distinct ship style, be them in different colors, with different mecha styles for the male & female Zentradi. DYRL then introduced the notion that the males fought for one side of the Protoculture, while the females fought for the other side (using entirely different ship stylings). This is reconsiled in Macross 7, which explains that the two factions of Protoculture, and as such, two factions of Zentradi, were banded together after severe losses to the Protoculture Protodevelin. It's the very same period where the restraints against attacking Protoculture were removed from the Zentradi. In this circumstance, it's very easily concievable to have a male/female combined fleet such as the Gorg Bodolza fleet, since there really was no choice at the time, but to consolodate & combine forces.

Thank you Keith, you made my point for me.

There was a civil war prior to the EVIL series going on line (it was due to the Civil War that they were developed in the first place).

It is known that the annimosity between the Meltran and Zentran factions of the Zentreadi does go back to that time. With the combination of the two factions and being a unified force would see Lap-Lamis being given available Zentran ships if Meltran were not available. Their depiction in DYRL could simply be recreations based on known Zentreadi records, not necesarily actual encounters, however the encounters can't be ruled out.

I agree with Sketchly in that if the defold was detected by passive sensors, that pick up readings at the speed of light, then the defold would have been detected after the signal travelled in space for ten years at lightspeed.

To get an idea of how advanced the PC sensor systems were, consider Glepinich's ability to detect and re-direct a fold as shown in Mac 7. It is clear that PC sensors and tech were much more advanced to the equipment supplied to their Giant army.

Though we know that long distance jumps are not instantaneous (based on what was displayed in DYRL) as time does pass the longer you are in super dimension space, just at a much slower rate.

Since it is likely that the PC civilization originated near the galactic core, where star systems would be much more dense, thus closer together, and our Earth is at the fringes of the Galaxy, it is conceivable that as already stated the emigration fleets haven't even come close to the core worlds that made up the old Galactic Republic.

One could speculate that the Megaroad stumbled upon a border world and that's when it disappeared, since it was the furthest ship out.

Since, unlike the Zentreadi, the SA was composed of PC citizens it is a very real possiblity it has superior firepower to the Zentreadi fleets, but less numbers. Thus in a firefight, the SA would have the upper hand in destructive capability, but be susceptible to being overun by the superior numbers of the cloned Zentreadi.

Therefore IF the SA is lesser in number, but more powerful, meeting them by chance would be much more rare an occurance than meeting a Zentreadi fleet in a galaxy of billions of stars.

[mikeszekely]

Oops, bit off with the percentage, but the numbers are sound for the impossible scenario. The assumptions I made above are intentional throwaway calculations mike, I'm not saying that my position is: "There are equal ZA and SA army ships!" nor am I suggesting the UNG only has one ship (which you know I understand the UNG has entire fleets). This is becoming an intentionally obtuse discussion and it doesn't need to be. These assumptions in the impossible scenario are just for the sake of a "what if" and not to be taken literally, only accepted in as much as they help illustrate to you a point that I don't believe you're considering when you say; "They should have encountered the SA by now". You have to look at the extremes to which it takes to get contact and realize the incredibly imposible scenario (and favorable assumptions) that have to be made just to get that 4%. Like I said, when we go back down to plausibility we lose entire orders of magnitudes in the percentiles and you get chances like one in a million and a few dozen fleets aren't going to change that with any significance.

Also, I never said the Stellar Republic is more dense in the center of the Galaxy; that's what YOU are saying. I'm saying we don't know.

I'm going to digress and restate my opinion that's it not unreasonable that the UNG hasn't run into more SA and ZA ships in a mere 40 years. Yes, it could make a good story, but it's not like it's supposed to have happened by now.

I know by now that I'm just coming across as argumentative, but that's really not my intention. I know you didn't say the Stellar Republic was more dense at the center of the Galaxy... I'm not either. I agree, we don't know. What I am saying though is that it's a likely possibility, and that as humanity heads in that direction, they'd be more likely to encounter the Supervision Army. I'm also saying that if that's the case, and Earth would be the galactic version of the boonies, that would also explain why Earth had gone relatively unmolested.

What's more, I'm NOT saying that they SHOULD have encountered the Supervision Army, I'm saying that they COULD But rather than consider the possibility, you want to argue that it's mathematically unlikely, if not impossible. (And you could come up with an even lower statistical percentage if you take sketchley's assumption that their FTL sensors have a 10 light year range, and spread the ships evenly throughout the galaxy... I'm not good with circles, so I'll pretend that it's a square, 100,000 ly on each side, and 10,000 ly thick on average... you'd have a 0.19% chance of finding a ship.)

But let's use a smaller-scale example again. Let's say you have a friend that lives in an apartment building with 100 apartments inside, 10 on each of the 10 floors. Opening doors at random, you'd only have a 1% chance of finding your friend's apartment, right? But let's say you know that he lives on the 9th floor, even if you don't know exactly which apartment. Suddenly, your chances have skyrocketed to a 10% chance of finding the right door. And maybe you can open more than one door, further increasing your chances.

Again, I'm NOT saying that the Supervision Army is more abundant closer to the galactic core, and I'm NOT saying that we SHOULD have encountered the Supervision Army. I AM saying that it's not necessarily as unlikely as you think. And I AM curious why such a big deal was made about the Supervision Army in SDF Macross, only for the subject to have never been brought up again.

[MilSpex]

Could the protagonists in this thread please post the complete time/event lines that they believe are true?

That would help a lot follow your arguments I think.?

Please?