Sub or Dub

[eugimon]

Yup, dub Ed doesn't even remotely hold a candle to Japanese Ed. Same goes for Spike & Vicious.

I like to attribute the whole sub issue to driving. If you can succefully drive, and take in all of the visual information around you without hitting anything, then you can watch subtitles. Words after all are also pictures in themselves.

This is so true. Japanese Ed is one of my favorite characters in anime... dub Ed is just annoying.

[Oihan]

Ever try watching a live action movie dubbed? I simply can't do that anymore. If anything, the dub is more distracting than the subtitles...it just ruins the whole experience for me...for I catch myself at times looking at their mouths more so than the actual picture. Ever been to a theater and the voice track was slightly off? Same deal with dubs...just annoying.

Edit: There are at times where I will watch a dubbed anime, but I prefer subs over dubs myself.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Oihan

[Keith]

Don't even get me started on dubbed live action movies....that's a whole mess in and of itself. Especially when the fanbase there exists specifically because it's so bad (dubbed monster movies & what not).

Slightly related true story. I ran into the guy who played Spike in the Cowboy Bebop dub one day at a supermarket. I was in line ahead of him, and he was buying flowers for mothers day. Someone behind him asked him a question about the flowers, and upon his answer I immediately reccognized his voice. He was amazed that I knew it was him, as that apparently rarely happened. Even funnier, was him trying to explain to the guy in line behind him what he did for a living .

[Hiriyu]

Slightly related true story. I ran into the guy who played Spike in the Cowboy Bebop dub one day at a supermarket. I was in line ahead of him, and he was buying flowers for mothers day. Someone behind him asked him a question about the flowers, and upon his answer I immediately reccognized his voice. He was amazed that I knew it was him, as that apparently rarely happened. Even funnier, was him trying to explain to the guy in line behind him what he did for a living .

For some reason, every time I hear that guy's voice, I'm reminded of Batman.

[Eazy D]

Are you gonna trust a country whose whole economy is based on Mable syrup to do Anime justice?

Rude, But soooooo funny

[sketchley]

Agree 100%. Or you could just learn Japanese. Theres more advantages than just being able to watch anime.

そうそうそう。日本語を分からなかったらヌアンス等が全然知らんやん。

RFがいつも失礼やん。誰でも彼に怒っているやん。

[ValkyrieFactory]

Like Graham said, "Sub all the way." Besides, my ears are not as good as they used to be (too much loud music in my adolescent years) so with sub, I am less likely to miss stuff than with with dub.

[vlenhoff]

See, as you read this you are missing what is happening with my avatar!

I totally agree. Most of my anime addicted friends look at me weird when I say I prefer dubs. I'm an artist myself, and I LOVE detail. I miss everything when I read the frigging titles. Which makes my rewind and watch again the same scene. If I knew Japanese & Chinese language all my problems would be over. Maybe I'm very slow mentally, and it takes me sooo much to read and watch at the same time. I understand sub versions are better but, in the end I'd still favor dubs. because it gives me the fully understandable audio visual experience.

I own Subbed anime, but I strongly prefer Dubbed

"Why would I want to read the story if i can just listen to it? Even if I mute the volume, the images are still telling the story."

[Max Jenius]

Subs all the way. It has to be an especially awesome dub for me to not mind, even then I use the dub sparsely. I'm used to reading quickly, so I don't miss anything.

[kanedaestes]

all depends on the dub. I have felt that Cowboy Bebop and Trigun, and Macross Plus, and Robotech (Macross Saga) and Ranma 1/2 to be pretty good dubs. Dubs were better back in the day before anime became commercialized in America. I hate most dubs now especially Naruto but some are pretty good. Depends on the company dubbing them, and the actors. Bryan Cranston (the father on Malcom in the Middle) is a pretty good voice actor (Isamu Dyson of all people) and so is the guy who played Uncle Phil on the Fresh Prince (original voice of the Shredder on Ninja Turtles and Fang in the Fist of the North Star movie)

[Phyrox]

Whatever tiny visual details I miss out out on during my first viewing of a subtitled movie are small compared to the loss of emersion/authentic dialoge I'll get every time I watch a dubbed movie.

It's a no-brainer for me.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Dubs suck, all dubs suck, period! As far as I'm concerned, you're not truly watching a show unless it's in its original language.

Ninja Scroll? Streetfighter II? Excel Saga?

not all dubs suck if they are done right with english voice actors that care. Period.

Edited September 7, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[vermillion01]

Well folks... thanx for all the posts and debates... I guess... i'll have to learn Japanese, Chinese and Korean then... its not something i would have ever considered. Last i heard, Japanese is one of the hardest languages to learn, but i see the merit of truly enjoying something you love in its original format. And i think its safe to say...

we all love anime.

peace.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

one of the main words that pops up in mybrain when i watch it raw is baka. lol

[Roy Focker]

RFがいつも失礼やん。誰でも彼に怒っているやん。

I heard that but I was too busy scratching myself to say something earlier

[ruskiiVFaussie]

lol sayyyyyyyyyyyy

[sketchley]

Well folks... thanx for all the posts and debates... I guess... i'll have to learn Japanese, Chinese and Korean then... its not something i would have ever considered. Last i heard, Japanese is one of the hardest languages to learn, but i see the merit of truly enjoying something you love in its original format. And i think its safe to say...

we all love anime.

peace.

Learning anything can be either impossibly difficult, or super easy. It all depends on your motivation, mindset, and ability to make time to study.

Learning the basics of Japanese is actually a lot easier than the basics of English (only need either 100 or 200 words vs. double that for English.) Grammatically, it's also a lot simpler than English, as there are almost no exceptions to the rule. If you come from an English background, you've also have an advantage, as there are a lot of English loan words in Japanese.

Of course, the three most difficult things are SVO order (SOV in Japanese,) kanji, and item-specific counters. That said, if you ever reach a competent level of Japanese, it makes learning Korean (essentially the same grammar, a lot of similar words*) easier, and the potential of being able to read some Chinese**.

* Both Japanese and Korean originally used Chinese characters as a written language. Because of that, a lot of words are similar (though not necessarily easily visible similar,) and there are some that are exactly the same.

** I have first hand experience with many Chinese reading and guessing the meaning of Japanese text. Though I have no first hand experience of Japanese doing the same with Chinese. It may be because the Japanese simplified Kanji earlier, and in ways more similar to the original Chinese characters, than the later Chinese simplification.

[protostar8]

Personally, I think the whole "I want to enjoy the animation/I miss things while reading" argument is bunk, and I say that because I used to believe it. Back in yon day before DVDs, I always bought dubbed VHS tapes because of my limited finances (dubs always cost $20, while sub taped were $30). I used to think the same thing, until I started watching more anime subtitled, as well as foreign films in general. It takes a little while to get used to reading and watching, but it's really not a big deal. After 7-8 years, it's become completely second nature to me, and I don't feel that I miss any action by reading things. For those who believe that argument, I'd suggest seriously giving a subtitled program a chance, and you'll see for yourself that it's not a big problem.

I completely agree with you. I miss very little of the action or what's happening on screen (only when a person is talking really fast and the subs are going a mile a minute so I have to focus on them). Now, after watching anime for the past 10ish years, I honestly watch the anime and read at the same time! Hard to believe, but I can read and watch something at the same time without missing anything (not being mean here, but there are a lot of people that can't do this). English voice acting in general is horrible. There are exceptions, but it mostly sucks. There are some shows I like in English (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex). Reading subs without missing anything is an acquired skill though, so it's something that most people won't be able do overnight.

But ultimately, it's just what you like and you should feel comfortable watching anime in whatever sub/dub format makes you happy. You either like subs or don't, no big deal either way so long as dub likers don't start getting preachy about people who watch/download the sub versions b/c the sub versions come out way before dubs and often dub versions don't have original japanese voices w/ subs. Likewise, sub likers shouldn't hate on people who like English dubs, even if the sub liker thinks the dubs are horrible. However, this I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to say if a dub is horrible (bad acting, poor yells) or if the subtitler did a very bad job (lots of Engrish or messing up names).

[vermillion01]

WOW! thanks sketchly. I would dearly love to learn an asian language, Chinese would probably be of most use as its the most widely used but for personal use it would be Japanese... I wonder how many people have learned a new language just for anime or movie viewing? I think i'll give it a try.

thanks for the input.

[eugimon]

WOW! thanks sketchly. I would dearly love to learn an asian language, Chinese would probably be of most use as its the most widely used but for personal use it would be Japanese... I wonder how many people have learned a new language just for anime or movie viewing? I think i'll give it a try.

thanks for the input.

For english speakers, korean is the easiest east asian language to pick up as their linguistic sounds overlap the most and the korean alphabet is modular/phonetic. Meaning different characters have specific sounds, rather than characters making up entire words or ideas.

Japanese is supposed to be one of the harder languages to become fluent in as there is basically 3 scripts used in everyday life, hiragana, katakana and Kanji. not to mention the occasional "romanji." In contrast, mandarin just has kanji and modern korean is almost 100% hanjul. Though, mandarin is a tonal language and many words will have different meanings depending on the inflection and the context. It can be a little daunting even for koreans and japanese even though chinese is sort of a "root" language for both, since those two languages are not tonal.

Anyways, the rosetta stone program, I found, is a pretty effective system for learning a foreign language. It's pretty straightforward and it teaches you to think in the language rather than doing a lot of memorizing and translating.

[kung flu]

Both formats are good if they are done well, it all depends on the voice actor, if they don't put any effort then it can be heard through the show. This is the same for Japanese actors. I mostly watch my shows in sub, and I have picked up a few Japanese phrases from it. Whats weird is when you get use one format its hard to adjust to the other. I watched ghost in the shell SAC in english first, but now I can't get use to the Japanese voices.

[-JP-]

I think you lose so much from dubs

i can't imagine patlabor without the voices of noa, asuma, and the rest

i've watched one dubbed eopisode and the entire mood and characters completely

changed, it wasn't the same.

And that happens to every anime i've heard dub for.

i usually watch the anime a second time anyway when i want to

just enjoy the visuals

watch these and i think it will give you an idea

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_-mS6ATwwxo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZoPJFJPOetc

[Excillon]

Depends. If it's a one off movie...subs are cool. If it's a multi part or series, I have to say I choose dubs. But then, I agree it depends on the voices. I remember watching crying freeman and it sounded like they were reading straight off the pages. However, take for instance Akira, D, or Ghost in the Shell and it's cool. I know it's blasphemy, but I didn't even bother with Macross and only watched Robotech until SDF came out in dub. I agree, it's a lot better. I enjoyed Zero as well, but still wouldn't mind seeing a dub of it or DYRL for that matter.

[sketchley]

For english speakers, korean is the easiest east asian language to pick up as their linguistic sounds overlap the most and the korean alphabet is modular/phonetic. Meaning different characters have specific sounds, rather than characters making up entire words or ideas.

Japanese is supposed to be one of the harder languages to become fluent in as there is basically 3 scripts used in everyday life, hiragana, katakana and Kanji. not to mention the occasional "romanji." In contrast, mandarin just has kanji and modern korean is almost 100% hanjul. Though, mandarin is a tonal language and many words will have different meanings depending on the inflection and the context. It can be a little daunting even for koreans and japanese even though chinese is sort of a "root" language for both, since those two languages are not tonal.

Phonetically, Korean is much harder than Japanese, as there are a lot more sounds in Korean that are NOT in English (I'd catagorize the majority as being in-between English sounds, with a few outside of it.) Written Korean is fairly easy to learn (it helps a bunch if you've learned Kanji or written Chinese.) In fact, there is a lot of Hanja (Korean for Kanji) that show up in Korean newspapers and books (moreso in academic, than in popular books.) The Hanja used is the original Chinese, which both Kanji and simplified Chinese are based off of. As far as Korean grammar goes, it's largely the same as Japanese, but there are some things that are not in English nor Japanese, in addition to having a future tense which Japanese doesn't have outside of the present potential.

Japanese is not hard because of the 3 alphabets (5 if if you include furigana and romaji), though I agree that it is much harder to read and guess the meaning of words (though, once one has developed a basic command of Kanji and learned all the radicals, one can start guessing reading and content fairly accurately.) The key difficulty to Japanese, and this is also true to Korean, is the levels of politeness* and nuance. The more one learns of the language, the more nuanced things get (much moreso than English.) As for politeness... well, even the Japanese, especially young people, have trouble or are ignorant of the more and most polite levels of the language. (In effect, they'd never be able to speak to the Emperor, and will have trouble talking to the boss and superiors at work.) Concerning phonetics, Japanese is the easiest, as there are significantly less sounds than in English, and there is essentially only one sound not in common usage in English (tsu).

In general, Mandarin Chinese has 4 tones per sound. Cantonese, on the other hand, has up to 21 (!) per sound. (Yes, twenty-one if you're thinking that's a mistake.)

Going by the "come live in the country" test, Japan is the easiest for an English speaker (it has more foreign (essentially English) borrowed words, easier phonetics, and plenty of signage in English.) Korea is second (quite a few less foreign borrowed words in daily use, more difficult phonetics**, and moderately less English signage,) and China is, well the most difficult to live in and learn, IMHO.

If one expands to Southeast Asia, the easiest language becomes Bhasa (Bahasa Malay or Bahasa Indonesian - basically the same with a political difference.)

Also, it's Hangul ( 한글 ); Hangeul (aka Han-geul) if you want to be up-to-date accurate. 나는한국어또한하세요.

Back to sub vs. dub: dubs can be really, really good; Macross Plus proves this. However, the people who buy dubs don't complain (or don't complain to the right people) about the bad voice acting. If people voted with their money and got a lot more vocal with the companies about low or poor quality dubs, you'll be able to see an increase in quality. As it is, the quality of the dub doesn't matter to the company, as people still buy it. It doesn't even matter the country of origin, though farming out to another country do to a positive exchange rate says a lot about how a company operates: looking to cut costs and do things as cheaply (aka low quality) as possible (again, this is not meant as a slight against the voice actors in the other country). Don't be suprised if, due to exchange rates and the search for even cheaper production costs, if anime starts taking on East Indian and South Asian accents; as a lot of English companies on both sides of the Atlantic are farming their call centres out to those countries.

EDIT:

* Politeness in Japanese and Korean is unlike English politeness (deferential use of words, and more words to say the same thing.) Polite language is an entirely new set of words. For example to eat in Japanese: 食べる (daily) vs. いただく (humble) vs. 召し上がる (honorific).

** There is no f sound in Korean. Therefore, do you want a (photo)copy? and do you want a coffee? sound exactly the same. The borrowed English word "fighting" (meaning hang in there) is said either hwaighting or paighting. Japanese doesn't have that problem, but both Japanese and Korean have the confusion of differing meaning from the English meaning(s). (Ex: Ice means ice cream, and not frozen water.)

Edited September 8, 2007 by sketchley

[Chewie]

For me it depends on how I saw it first.

If it was dubbed, I most likely won't be able to watch it subbed. This is true for Macross Plus, Samurai Champloo, Ranma 1/2, Cowboy Bebop, DBZ and a few others. I can't stand any of them in Japanese. Whereas I started watching FMA, Bleach, Naruto, Tenchi, Tenjo Tenge and many others that have dubs out there in Japanese with subs and can't begin to watch them in English.

As for the argument of missing things, I read too fast to notice things are subbed anymore. Case in point; I was watching the newest Bleach the other day when the halfway point popped up, I was so into the show that I looked away and started straightening my desk and during a dialog heavy part I realized I didn't have any idea what was going on because I was THAT used to the subs. I forgot I had to read the subs. I just kinda went on auto pilot.

Toe may toe, toe mah toe. /shrug

[Radd]

Personally, I'm a fan of voice acting as well as a fan of animation, therefor a bad dub really truly grates on me, and so much north american dubbing jobs get such a poor treatment. There are some truly phenomenal english speaking voice actors out there, but few studios want to pay for quality talent. Not to mention, voice acting is such a second-class job in north american entertainment today that there is a very small pool of truly talented and skilled voice actors to choose from, and those who are known for their talent generally command high prices.

Over here, the radio drama is dead, and animation is still primarily aimed at small children (who are treated as if they are all mentally handicapped in addition to being young). Voice acting is always becoming more and more in demand, but as far as the industry is concerned it's acceptable throw sub-par voice acting at animation, videogames, what-have-you.

Additionally, north american voice acting has several overused voice types. There is a typical "hero voice", for example (Spike's, from BeBop, voice actor fits this mold from what I remember). While the same is true in Japan, when a north American VA with a typical archtype voice is shoehorned into a character with a very distinctive and atypical voice in Japan (Lupin III is a prime example) it really puts me off. Also, screeching is not the same thing as talking very fast. This seems to get confused all too many times in english dubbing of Japanese voices. One can indeed talk very fast without having a voice like nails on a chalkboard.

And then there's also the way a lot of studios, for both anime, animation in general, and videogames, handle their voice talent. It's not uncommon for a north american dubbing studio to put each actor alone in a booth, with a script that contains only their own dialogue (with no context whatsoever, nor instructions for appropriate tone or inflection) and leave it at that. This does not lend itself to quality voice acting.

All this together and I find myself unwilling to listen to even what most consider "good dub jobs", because by and large they're only "good" by comparison to the crap thrown at us.

For what it's worth, though I may not speak the language, speech patterns and inflection are universal, so when I watch an anime or other foreign animation and the voice acting is bad in the native language, I still cringe.

Finally, I'm also a fan of animation, so much so that I pursued it as a career, and am rather quick at reading. I have never found myself unable to fully appreciate the art and animation in an anime due to reading the subtitles.

Of course, in the end this is a personal, and highly subjective, decision. If you prefer one or the other, more power to you. I'm not going to tell a fan of dubs that they "must" go with subtitles, though I have argued with people who've stated their belief that there are no good english speaking VAs at all.

[vermillion01]

I think you lose so much from dubs

i can't imagine patlabor without the voices of noa, asuma, and the rest

i've watched one dubbed eopisode and the entire mood and characters completely

changed, it wasn't the same.

And that happens to every anime i've heard dub for.

i usually watch the anime a second time anyway when i want to

just enjoy the visuals

watch these and i think it will give you an idea

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_-mS6ATwwxo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZoPJFJPOetc

Funny, I was going to add that i thought the Patlabor movie dubs (1 + 2) were really good!, I couldnt imagine those movies with different voices. Maybe its a 'rose tinted' memory thing.. you hear it acouple of times that way, and thats the way it will always be.

maybe someone should start a "good dub" list thread for people like myself and/or any newcomers to the genre.

[eugimon]

* Politeness in Japanese and Korean is unlike English politeness (deferential use of words, and more words to say the same thing.) Polite language is an entirely new set of words. For example to eat in Japanese: 食べる (daily) vs. いただく (humble) vs. 召し上がる (honorific).

I would debate you on which is harder for westerners to pick up, korean or japanese... but I'm guessing this is way off topic already.

Anyways, I know a few people who learned japanese SOLELY from watching anime without ever bothering to learn abou the politeness thing and when they used their japanese in front of the parents of our friends, the reaction on some of their faces was classic. One mom just figured that she didn't know any better but one mom (VERY traditional) was just horrified.

For anyone one not in the know, a lot of anime uses the familiar form or even "gangster" speak which a polite person would never use when speaking to an adult.

[sketchley]

I would debate you on which is harder for westerners to pick up, korean or japanese... but I'm guessing this is way off topic already.

Agreed (that it's semi-off topic.) As I've "picked up" both languages, I probably may be biased in my opinion that despite both having difficult aspects, neither are more or less difficult than the other.

Learning exclusively from anime is unadvisable. As Eugimon stated, the politeness level is generally quite low (either between peers, or deliberately insulting*). However, as a study aid to practice what's learned in a class** (listening training mostly), especially in a non-Japanese environment that many of you live in, it is worthwhile.

Yes, watching TV is a good way to study, believe it or not. However, it means covering up the subtitles and relying on your ears and brain to figure out what is being said; not turning off your ears and reading English .) If you understand the story from previous viewings, it's also an excellent way to figure out the meaning of phrases, language use, and possibly even words and word (noun, adjective, etc.) endings.

* Something that is lost in translation, perhaps moreso in dubs; because at least with subs, the texture of sounds in the language is still apparent. Two examples that come to mind are Ghost in the Shell (the movie), and Macross Plus. In GitS, the Japanese voice actor has a direct, all-business, coldness in her manner of speaking. The English voice actor has a laid back valley-girl manner of speaking. The English dub puts an entirely different characterization on the character.

In Macross Plus (yes, this is despite the English dub being really good, with good voice actors), Isamu Dyson's English voice actor went for emotion and theatrics; whereas the original voice actor is cold and distant, and, especially in the opening sequence of the OVA, has a heavy "I'm beyond bored" feel to the way he speaks. The original Japanese actor is very, very subtle, but if one picks up on it, it adds a startling dimension to the character; opposing the English actors "I say I'm bored, but look at all the exciting fireworks!"

** class here could mean anything with a structured approach to language acquisition and functionality, such as private tutoring or books. Picking things up at random is not advised if you want to be anything more than joke!

PS Darn it! I had wanted to make this post as small as possible... but it kept growing!

Edited September 9, 2007 by sketchley