Sub or Dub

[vermillion01]

I have not seen this as a topic on MW yet (someone please correct me if i'm wrong) but it sometimes gets to me that harcore anime fans are always strict 'Sub' fans. The reason this ticks me off is simple....

I love Anime, (as a former art student i wrote my final thesis on the comparisons between Japanese fine art and animation)

I watch anime not just for the stories, but for the style of animation. Things we can not yet do or would not work on film can be carried out with real flair and style (example: any mech transformation)... Anyway, to cut a long rant short.. reading subtitles takes away from the animation itself. I agree that seeing an anime in its original language has more meaning, but why deny yourself the effects by constantly scanning the bottom of the screen reading text?

Most recently (for me at least) Macross Zero (which was bloody brilliant by the way!) - stunning animation! fast paced action scenes that can be totally missed by reading the subs! argh! I am not trying to start wars or anything and i know as a very new member i may be over stepping the boundaries but does anyone else out there agree with me?

A lot of my freinds claim to be animation fans and have yet to see a dubbed movie because "its not right man... it should always be in the original language" In an ideal world, I would have dual language versions of all my anime.

I would dearly love to watch Macross DYRL or Macross 7 in english just so that i could actually 'watch' them and fully enjoy the animation!

OK rant over, thanks for your time.

[ShadowerV2]

For me it depends on the dub.

An example would be the Wicked City anime. I very much prefered the first english dub to the japanese dub.

But other than that normally I would prefer subbed.

[vermillion01]

Of course, I am refering to english speaking peeps..... not even i would force Japanese peeps to watch anime in english LOL

I just think we miss soooo much by reading subs.

At least the first time something is viewed, it should be viewed in your own language so u can at least get the jist of the story while still enjoying the animation.

[Dangard Ace]

Sub.

Bad voice acting grates on my ears. In Japanese I can't tell if it's good or bad therefore it's all good.

Plus English voice actors can't get the screaming part right.

[emajnthis]

Sub.

Bad voice acting grates on my ears. In Japanese I can't tell if it's good or bad therefore it's all good.

Plus English voice actors can't get the screaming part right.

QFT, the screaming has always been a big problem with me too, it really turns what's supposed to be an emotional scene into something campy and laughable.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm a very visual person by my nature. I went to school for design and run a design and animation company. That being said when I watch something for entertainment I prefer to watch what is happening on the screen rather than read subtitles. I have never liked subs. Yes it's "the original" and "the artist's vision" and all those great terms but you really can't appreciate a visual media like movies or animation of you are constantly having to glance down to the bottom of the screen and read tiny words. Your attention is focused in the wrong spot. Plus having these paragraphs of text taking up at times a third or more of the screen ruins the visual feel of the thing you are watching.

If I was a hardcore dork I'd learn the language the show was in so I could take in the sights as well as the dialog without having to read subtitles. But I'm not a hardcore dork and I'm actually quite forgiving of bad dubs... heck bad dubs make things even better sometimes. The only complaints I have about dubs are when they totally re-write the dialog to make it more "American" or "Western". When the character says "You shame your family and bring dishonor to your ancestors!" that is what I want to hear the dub say, no matter how hokey it sounds... but rather they'll "Westernize" it and it becomes "You suck you stupid idiot!" and it sounds just as hokey, but now that 13 year old brain dead kid will "understand" it better.

Then again I got "into" anime back in the early '90s when all you could get were fansubbed VHS tapes at shady comic shops and sci-fi conventions... after so many years spent squinting and reading the bottom of the screen I guess I just want to see the visual presentation of the show, dialog be damned. I'd rather hear a character with a goofy dubbed voice than have to read what that "talented original voice actor" just said.

[ChrisG]

Personally, I think the whole "I want to enjoy the animation/I miss things while reading" argument is bunk, and I say that because I used to believe it. Back in yon day before DVDs, I always bought dubbed VHS tapes because of my limited finances (dubs always cost $20, while sub taped were $30). I used to think the same thing, until I started watching more anime subtitled, as well as foreign films in general. It takes a little while to get used to reading and watching, but it's really not a big deal. After 7-8 years, it's become completely second nature to me, and I don't feel that I miss any action by reading things. For those who believe that argument, I'd suggest seriously giving a subtitled program a chance, and you'll see for yourself that it's not a big problem.

[JsARCLIGHT]

And to that I say your idea of "watching" vastly differs from mine. The gross action and movement is not what I like to look at and you miss so much fine detail by reading subtitles. I had no clue how detailed and intricate the background matte paintings and things like the pod interiors in the Cowboy Bebop movie were until I rented the dubbed DVD a while back. Having only seen the subtitled bootleg DVD I realized how much detail I missed when constantly reading the bottom of the screen. If all you're doing is watching something to watch it, then subs are fine... but to really appreciate the intricacies and artwork of some of the greater animation movies you can't constrain yourself to the crutch of subtitles. The way I like to think of it is "could I watch a Pixar movie with subtitles?"... my answer is no. There is just so much to see on screen at any given time that having to split your attention between the action and reading the dialog causes you to miss so much nuance.

Edit: another prime example for me is FLCL... there was just so much detail and fine minutia in that show. Even when watching the dub I felt like I missed so much. I can't even comprehend trying to watch that show subtitled.

[mikeszekely]

I'm with ChrisG. It's not like when I watch anime, I'm staring at the bottom of the screen and nothing else. I can easily read the subs quickly and almost out of the corner of my eye without taking my eyes off what's going on. And the whole "you miss what's happening during the action scenes!" doesn't really jive with me either, because that's usually when they're doing the least talking.

What's more, almost every dub I've experienced ranged from bad to horrendous.

[yellowlightman]

This argument is like 15 years old.

It is also irrelevant, given that DVD's can now provide both.

[Mr March]

I want good dubs of everything, but I want my subtitled version with original japanese audio every time. There is a certain theme and feel to anime that is just not captured by dubs, no matter how good. Now, I'd be willing to let go of that rather negligible incremental gain from time to time if there was a quality dub available. Unfortunately, hardly any anime at all can be accused of featuring a quality dub and those that do have a good dub are barely a nose past the line of acceptability. I can't stand bad acting, whether it's live action or animated. Current dubbing standards - if they can be called that - do nothing but celebrate mediocre voice acting. What's worse, it will never get better if people simply endure the horde of bad dubbing work cause there is no incentive to do better.

This past year, I watched Cowboy Bebop in japanese for the first time, having owned it and viewed it in english only for years. I was blown away by the differences in characterization and actually preferred several characters in japanese. I still watch the english dub from time to time, but even this mighty example has once again fallen to the original. Even as good as the Cowboy Bebop dub is, it's not good enough and it's sad to admit that nearly every dub aside from Bebop is worse.

As for the great "reading versus viewing" debate that is ALWAYS a part of this discussion, I find watching subtitled anime no different than watching something in english while eating (something I do often). Like the incremental gain enjoyed by watching anime subtitled, the incremental loss from watching subtitled anime is negligible, in my opinion. In the absence of any real quality english dubbing, I'll go subtitled every time.

[eriku]

I honestly don't think I miss anything by reading subtitles. I think a person can get to apoint where they can look at what's going on (be it animation or live action) and simultaneously read the subs. The human brain is amazingly fast in it's abilities of comprehension.

For me dubbing almost always is a distraction for me because it's typically done poorly or it just 'doesn't fit'. Most anime sounds so much more natural with it's original voice actors. I think one problem is that English dubs tend to try and 'Americanize' the language or story. Or they change the grammar completely to 'match' the mouth-movements of the characters.

Another thing that disctracts me with some English dubs is when the studio pulls out the 'Star factor' and tries to cram as many 'recognizable' names onto to roster as possible. This works occasionally for Disney's treatments of Ghibli films, but it also really mars some of them. I can't even watch 5 minutes of the latest dub of Totoro because of Dakota Fanning. And Billy Bob Thornton in Mononoke was a particularly poor choice for the character he played. A good voice actor has never, EVER needed to be a movie star. And most good voice actors can do a far better job than any Hollywood actor ever could. Take Billy West or John DiMaggio for example, or almost the entire cast of the Simpsons. Although sometimes no matter how good a voice actor is, they just can't beat the original. Like Yasuo Yamada as Lupin III. When I saw the new dub of Lupin on Cartoon Network a few years back and heard Rick Hunter when he opened his mouth I almost cried.

I enjoy authenticity with films, too. For example, when I watched Ratatouile, even though it was a brilliant film and I loved every minute of it, I was constantly annoyed throughout it's entirety at the lack of French. All these characters are supposed to be French, living in Paris, and they all sound like the most generic stereotypical caucasian-trying-to-sound-French. And some characters had completely American accents. I was able to forgive this because the movie was so good, but it still bugs me. I would much rather have listened to French voice actors and watched English subtitles. In fact, i'm hoping the DVD has a French dub so I can watch it that way.

Some people just can't get used to reading subtitles and watching a show/movie at the same time, and that's fine. But just realise that it's your own personal preference, it's what works for you, and people who don't enjoy it in the same way aren't wrong or 'missing out', they're brains are just processing it differently than yours does.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

dub first, sub after. I love both versions, but in some cases (ala ninja scroll, streetfighter 2 animation movie etc)

the dub is far superior to the original Japanese ST/vocal. I like to view both versions, but as my first language being aussie

english, i prefer to watch the anime and hear their voices in my mind instead of reading text and missing important parts

of the animation. Eriku, i find i need to watch an anime twice if it is Japanese lingo only with subs.

Not because i was slow to miss parts of the animation, but because i like to focus on the story first and the animation after.

Edited September 6, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[azrael]

Personally, I think the whole "I want to enjoy the animation/I miss things while reading" argument is bunk, and I say that because I used to believe it. Back in yon day before DVDs, I always bought dubbed VHS tapes because of my limited finances (dubs always cost $20, while sub taped were $30). I used to think the same thing, until I started watching more anime subtitled, as well as foreign films in general. It takes a little while to get used to reading and watching, but it's really not a big deal. After 7-8 years, it's become completely second nature to me, and I don't feel that I miss any action by reading things. ...

Same here. After years of watching, this has become a non-issue for me.

But on the other hand....I also watch things raw.

[Macross73]

honestly it depends on how lazy I am feeling. I prefer hearing everything as it was originally made but sometimes I just dont feel like reading anything.

[Sumdumgai]

Subs over dub for me. Raws work too.

Dubs can completely change a character, depending on how the voice actor/actress portrays that character. Some good examples are Gendo Ikari's dub in Evangelion. That voice actor was fantastic for me (kind of sucked in the movie though, he didn't sound the same). The voice actors in Macross Plus were pretty good, although Myung's voice grated on my nerves a bit.

But, Light Yagami's voice in the trailers for the dubbed version of Death Note... Too whiney, too angsty sounding. He doesn't sound at all composed, level headed, passionate, or even a slight tinge of crazy. The entire cast of the Rurouni Kenshin OVA was horrible. The RK TV series on the other hand was watcheable (although some characters weren't as cool, like Jine or Saito, can't beat their seiyuu). The dub of Saint Seiya was atrocious.

I'm used to reading subs barely glancing at them while I keep my focus on the main part of the screen. If the anime is good I'll rewatch it anyway, and can watch it without reading the subs, remembering more or less what's being said in addition to understanding a bit of the Japanese. As long as I get my anime with the original sounds, whatever. I only check dubs nowadays out of curiosity's sake to see how the characters are portrayed.

[vermillion01]

As i mentioned orginally, i think all anime should get the dual audio treatment... and as for english speaking people, there are some good dubs out there. First time i watched MAC+ it was dubbed OVA and it is still the best (IMHO), others benefit from their orginal audio... fact is you will inevitably miss things when reading subs, i dont care how superhuman your reading skills are. i have seen Akira, (in english and japanese) like, a million times and i still see new things.

My orginal example still stands.. MAC-0 is awsome (seen the proper dvd and the fansub) but i'd love to see it in english just to 'relax' while watching... too much going on in some scenes, and as DRYL and MAC7 its just not fair that i will have to watch each one 3 times just to make sure i dont miss anything.

- reminds of that scene in mac-0 ep1 where focker is tracing missles with eyes.... too... much... too fast..-

[Raptor]

Raw or subs...

[eriku]

Some people may miss things reading subs, but it's not really logical to say that everyone who reads subs misses stuff. I'll go so far as to say I never miss anything because of subs.

[David Hingtgen]

If the dub is good---dub's fine. Otherwise, subs. Cowboy Bebop is probably the best example. Love the dub, have only seen the dub. (Asides from the movie, which I watched both ways)

[Scream Man]

Im with dave; as long as it doesnt suck to bad, Im all for the dub. i prefer it because Im usually doing other things when i watch shows. It bugs me that I essentially cant watch macorss dubbed, except Plus.

hell, Ill go out ona limb and say that while I prefer Macross to Robotech, i liked the old dubbed voices. The dude who played Gloval rocks, and i always like roy and Lisa too. Sure, Minemi was annoying, but when ISN'T Minmei annoying?

Actually, just thinking more, the dub for Blue Sub 6 had some improvments over the Japanese voice cast as well. especially the Captain.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Scream Man

[Roy Focker]

I'll read the whole thread later but if you're gonna watch something watch it how the creators intended it. Not some hack dub by some studio in Canada. Are you gonna trust a country whose whole economy is based on Mable syrup to do Anime justice? Besides translating dialog the dub director and actors often do a different take on characters.

Of course some people will say if I have to read sub titles I'll miss something. To that I say what are you retarded? Aren't you idiots capable of glancing at one sentence understand its meaning and look at the images at the same time? It is not that hard. Does it take you five minutes to read one line. When you're driving on the freeway aren't you able to read the road signs and keep your eyes on the road? Yes you can. You do it all the time. If you can do that then you can read subs. If you people honesty need dubs then please stop driving.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

... watching them raw is fun! Especially after you have read the subs countless times and you practically know what will be said and happen.

Imagine watching Excel Saga Raw in jap... hahha that would make anyone's eye twitch anime style.

Roy Focker... who are you calling idiots?

I only watch it twice over just to take in the animation as i am a perfectionist.

I hate seeing subtitles over something as beautiful as say, Macross.

With Macross Zero for example, I watch the subs first and then switch off the subs and watch it Raw just as it was intended.

Watching it Raw is the true way to watch Macross in any form imo.

Edited September 7, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[vermillion01]

"If you can do that then you can read subs. If you people honesty need dubs then please stop driving. "

LOL!!! I don't drive but thats funny... it seems there will always be the two types of purist out there. The animation purist that prefers the dub (if its passible.. not terrible), and the hardcore purists who say 'no' to nearly all (only the best and most exact dubs need apply) dubbed anime. I think this debate will have no winners (and equally no losers) as we will always argue our own points. I still and always will get a bee in my bonnet with the sub only crowd, as i see animation for what it is... animation. I can see the value of original language animes and do not dismiss them in any way, shape or form. i guess the raw format is king at the end of the day. (If only we all spoke Japanese, Chinese, Korean etc ).

On a side note where do we stand on anime desgined for dual languages? written and animated to be a compromise between _______ and english? I can only think of a couple of examples, Final Fantasy (spirits within and advent children), and maybe Yukikaze (i think... someone will correct me if i'm wrong).

[jwinges]

I don't mind dubs as long as they are good. Actually I prefer Dubs if they are good. I read enough at work and while working on my doctorate. Plus its nice to put something on to fall asleep to.

Hopefully the dub is good and the sound of the main characters voices are at least somewhat similar to the japanese VA's. Unfortunately this is difficult for some characters.

Now if I could only get a good high quality dub of Gunbuster, macross, macross 7, ZZ gundam, Victory Gundam, and Turn A gundam I'd be set.

btw...DUBS SHOULD NOT SCREW WITH THE ORIGINAL MUSIC TRACKS!!!

Edited September 7, 2007 by jwinges

[Akilae]

This past year, I watched Cowboy Bebop in japanese for the first time, having owned it and viewed it in english only for years. I was blown away by the differences in characterization and actually preferred several characters in japanese. I still watch the english dub from time to time, but even this mighty example has once again fallen to the original. Even as good as the Cowboy Bebop dub is, it's not good enough and it's sad to admit that nearly every dub aside from Bebop is worse.

Case in point: MGS2... the English dub butchered Raiden's voice so badly from the original Japanese version... I think that was part of the reason Raiden failed to horribly in the American market.

[Graham]

Sub all the way. 99.9% of dubs in my experience have terrible voice acting that really grates.

I've never had a problem with being able to read the subs and watch the picture at the same time.

If I really want to see something in detail (like fast-paced mecha fights or transformation sequences), I'll freeze frame or watch it in slow motion, but I do this irrespective of whether the anime is subbed or dubbed anyway.

Graham

[MilSpex]

Personally, I think the whole "I want to enjoy the animation/I miss things while reading" argument is bunk, and I say that because I used to believe it. Back in yon day before DVDs, I always bought dubbed VHS tapes because of my limited finances (dubs always cost $20, while sub taped were $30). I used to think the same thing, until I started watching more anime subtitled, as well as foreign films in general. It takes a little while to get used to reading and watching, but it's really not a big deal. After 7-8 years, it's become completely second nature to me, and I don't feel that I miss any action by reading things. For those who believe that argument, I'd suggest seriously giving a subtitled program a chance, and you'll see for yourself that it's not a big problem.

Agree 100%. Or you could just learn Japanese. Theres more advantages than just being able to watch anime.

[MilSpex]

A lot of my freinds claim to be animation fans and have yet to see a dubbed movie because "its not right man... it should always be in the original language" In an ideal world, I would have dual language versions of all my anime.

Why wouldnt your perfect world just be one where you could understand Japanese?

An English translation is never going to be the same because some things just dont translate and require an understanding of the Japanese cultural context. Studying the language for many years gives you this understanding and a better understanding of anime characters motivations.

[Keith]

Dubs suck, all dubs suck, period! As far as I'm concerned, you're not truly watching a show unless it's in its original language.

[Beltane70]

Gotta go with the sub side!

For the first five or six years that I was watching anime the only thing available was raw. I got so used to hearing things in Japanese that dubs actually sound a bit weird to me. Even though I only know very little Japanese, the language actually doesn't sound foreign to my ears.

[lord_breetai]

I prefer to watch a show raw if it's anywhere near my Japanese comprehension level (which a lot of anime is so there ;p).

If it's too hard for me to follow raw I watch subbed, but I don't even have to try and read the subs, my peripheral vision is good enough that I take the whole image subs and all in.

[Hiriyu]

I vote for subs, every time.

I can to some extent sympathize with the folks who feel that they may miss some of the artistry while reading subs, but there is nothing stopping anyone from watching a program a second time to soak up any visual goodness that they may have missed the first (or second, or third) time around. In my opinion, part of the artistry of an anime is the audio presentation - and without fail, dubs ALWAYS miss the mark.

Mr. March's example of Cowboy Bebop is spot on: some people I know even claim that the English dub is better than the original. This of course, is a load of horse hockey The original is in fact, far better.

[Keith]

I vote for subs, every time.

I can to some extent sympathize with the folks who feel that they may miss some of the artistry while reading subs, but there is nothing stopping anyone from watching a program a second time to soak up any visual goodness that they may have missed the first (or second, or third) time around. In my opinion, part of the artistry of an anime is the audio presentation - and without fail, dubs ALWAYS miss the mark.

Mr. March's example of Cowboy Bebop is spot on: some people I know even claim that the English dub is better than the original. This of course, is a load of horse hockey The original is in fact, far better.

Yup, dub Ed doesn't even remotely hold a candle to Japanese Ed. Same goes for Spike & Vicious.

I like to attribute the whole sub issue to driving. If you can succefully drive, and take in all of the visual information around you without hitting anything, then you can watch subtitles. Words after all are also pictures in themselves.

[Gunbuster]

I love Anime, (as a former art student i wrote my final thesis on the comparisons between Japanese fine art and animation)

I watch anime not just for the stories, but for the style of animation. Things we can not yet do or would not work on film can be carried out with real flair and style (example: any mech transformation)... Anyway, to cut a long rant short.. reading subtitles takes away from the animation itself. I agree that seeing an anime in its original language has more meaning, but why deny yourself the effects by constantly scanning the bottom of the screen reading text?

I don't get this @_@;; if you are that focus on the style/animation/effects, does it matter if it's sub? just watch for what you are looking for, if you want the full package, learn japanese (then you can read art books telling you about how they do the style).

and when you say "why deny yourself the effects", I would ask a question back "why deny yourself the better voice acting that adds another dimension to the animation?". Seriously, there are very few English voice actors that takes VO job as seriously as the japanese VO actor/actress.