YF-19 (VF-19) Vs. YF-21 (VF-21)

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'm gonna say that the YF-19 is a superior plane. I know I'm gonna take flak for this, but listen.

The YF-19 is less experimental. The crazy things that the 21 has are just more things that will break and require repair. Or they'll break mid-flight, and you'll suddenly have a very painful sensation from behind, if you catch my drift.

The crazy wing system on the 21 can likely cease to function, mid-combat at that, and then what? You're stuck in a position that might be good for one maneuver but bad for all the others. You could get stuck in high-speed mode and it would lose lift if you slowed down.

Also, the canopy is all messed up. I understand that it's not necessary with the BDI, but that's what pushed Guld over the already crumbling cliff of insanity he had been standing on. Also, as we see in episode 1, it is prone to failure. Aside from all that, you need an implant for it to work, anyhow.

Transformation: The legs are separate entities from the engines. While this can have advantages, it has distinct disadvantages, too.

First, there's the whole, huge plate on the bottom, which adds weight. The legs also add weight there. If the legs were the engines, even if you kept that space, it'd way a bunch less, and perform better because. Also, you'd have a bomb bay, to boot! (Given, it'd be a fighter/GERWALK thing, only...)

YF-19: Simple Forward-swept wings with VG, advanced avionics, more simple parts. The damn thing's cheaper, I'd bet, anyway.

[UN Spacy]

Holy THREAD necromancy!

[JB0]

The crazy wing system on the 21 can likely cease to function, mid-combat at that, and then what? You're stuck in a position that might be good for one maneuver but bad for all the others. You could get stuck in high-speed mode and it would lose lift if you slowed down.

Actually, the variable-camber wings weren't intended for the production model even if the YF-21 won.

"Composite materials (based upon OTM theories) which are capable of increasing or decreasing the wing cross section and area with feedback from the pilot's brainwaves. Due to the high cost and problems in the construction of the main wing's complex structure, this technology is not intended for mass production."

Snatched from the Compendium.

Also, that's not as crazy a technology as it sounds. That was the ORIGINAL way planes maneuvered, bu deforming the wing surface. Flaps came later, as a response to stiffer wings.

Also, the canopy is all messed up. I understand that it's not necessary with the BDI, but that's what pushed Guld over the already crumbling cliff of insanity he had been standing on. Also, as we see in episode 1, it is prone to failure. Aside from all that, you need an implant for it to work, anyhow.

I don't think the BDI/BCS needs surgery. I think it's a "wireless" system.

And I didn't see any evidence that the system pushed Guld over any threshold.

The VF-11 wreck just showed that if you stick crazy people in planes, bad stuff happens. Not that the system was inherently flawed.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Actually, the variable-camber wings weren't intended for the production model even if the YF-21 won.

"Composite materials (based upon OTM theories) which are capable of increasing or decreasing the wing cross section and area with feedback from the pilot's brainwaves. Due to the high cost and problems in the construction of the main wing's complex structure, this technology is not intended for mass production."

Snatched from the Compendium.

Also, that's not as crazy a technology as it sounds. That was the ORIGINAL way planes maneuvered, bu deforming the wing surface. Flaps came later, as a response to stiffer wings.

I don't think the BDI/BCS needs surgery. I think it's a "wireless" system.

And I didn't see any evidence that the system pushed Guld over any threshold.

The VF-11 wreck just showed that if you stick crazy people in planes, bad stuff happens. Not that the system was inherently flawed.

It's not as simple as early planes. The whole wing changes, in more ways than pulling cloth tighter or loosening it. The VF-22 doesn't have them, but the YF-21 does, and that's the war I'm speaking of.

You see that weird thing in Guld's forehead? It's an implant for the BDI/BCS.

The VF-11 wreck shows first:

The BDI and BCS are prone to failure

Second:

It's too sensitive. "If the YF-21 creates a sudden, downward force... Yes." does not a control input make, yet there we go.

[Gubaba]

And I didn't see any evidence that the system pushed Guld over any threshold.

The VF-11 wreck just showed that if you stick crazy people in planes, bad stuff happens. Not that the system was inherently flawed.

Ah, but doesn't Macross Plus go out of its way to demonstrate that ONLY crazy people can be successful fighter pilots?

[VFTF1]

Ah, but doesn't Macross Plus go out of its way to demonstrate that ONLY crazy people can be successful fighter pilots?

I think it went out of its' way to show that if the aim of the Military is to replace pilots with AI systems, then you make sure that your non-AI fighter test pilots are insubordinate loonies who crash planes left and right OR Zendradi with sub-conscious remnants of their initial bio-engineering compelling angry rape-inducing outburts when they find themselves under stress (and put the latter into the plane that relies on brain wave control).

Pete

[SchizophrenicMC]

Pete is right...

[Oihan]

I don't think the BDI/BCS is necessarily needed to fly the YF-21. If I remember correctly, there were flight sticks within the YF-21. So putting the whole BDI/BCS issue aside, I still believe the YF-21 to be superior to the YF-19. With the composite materials and weapon payloads...on top of the BDI/BCS...it's a no-brainer for me.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Oihan

[SchizophrenicMC]

I don't think the BDI/BCS is necessarily needed to fly the YF-21. If I remember correctly, there were flight sticks within the YF-21. So putting the whole BDI/BCS issue aside, I still believe the YF-21 to be superior to the YF-19. With the composite materials and weapon payloads...on top of the BDI/BCS...it's a no-brainer for me.

The 19 was made of composite materials, too. It's just a matter of what type. The YF-21's had the ability to shape-shift, like a technology currently in the works. The 19 had a straightforward construction.

There are flight sticks, but so much blindspot in the cockpit, it'd be a horrible plane to fly without BDI.

Weapons payload? The YF-19's is easily the same.

Taken from Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual, which is taken from the Macross Compendium, among other official sources

YF-21

Armament -

Guns:

1: 1 x fixed rear Erlikon AAB-7(.5) super-miniature anti-aircraft laser turret (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode)

2: 2 x semi-fixed internal Mauler REB-22 laser beam guns featuring forward/rearward barrels (mounted underneath tail stabilizers in Fighter mode, lower arms in GERWALK/Battroid modes)

3: 2 x Howard/General GV-17L new standard cartridge-less Gatling gun pods featuring retractable grip/stealth covers in Four hard point weapon stations (mounted left/right ventral fuselage in Fighter mode or leg storage bay cover panels and/or manipulators in GERWALK/Battroid modes)

4: 1 x fixed Howard PBS-03F fighter-carried pin-point barrier system

5: 2 x arm shields (tail stabilizers in fighter mode, lower arm in GERWALK/Battroid modes); function in concert with barrier system

Bombs & Missiles:

6: 4 x internal Bifors BML-02S YF-21-exclusive all-environment rapid-fire micro-missile launchers featuring exit ports from forward dorsal section to the sides of the engine nacelles (mounted in central dorsal section).

YF-19

- Armament -

Guns:

1: 1 x fixed rear Mauler REB-30G anti-aircraft laser gun turret (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode)

2: 2 x semi-fixed internal Mauler REB-20G converging energy cannons OR Mauler REB-23 laser cannons (mounted in both leading wing roots with exit ports)

3: 1 x Howard GU-15 new standard external gatling gun pod in Four hard point weapon stations (mounted ventral fuselage in Fighter mode or in manipulator in GERWALK/Battroid modes); spare magazines stored underneath shield

4: 1 x fixed Howard PBS-03F fighter-carried pin-point barrier system

5: 1 x standard bulletproof (anti-projectile) shield (mounted center rear dorsal fuselage in Fighter mode, mounted on arm in GERWALK/Battroid modes)

Bombs & Missiles:

6: 2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.

4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)

EmboldenedText links to respective items between the two fighters, in respect to list order.

Looks pretty similar to me. Just differences in caliber. In fact, I'd say the tradeoff of one Gunpod versus more missiles makes it MORE armed. That's not even mentioning the heavy weapons cluster on the 19.

Edited January 25, 2009 by SchizophrenicMC

[Letigre]

Except by all accounts the heavy weapons cluster was as experimental as the 21's composite wings. So that shouldn't really count toward or against the 19, since it probably wasn't gonna be part of the mass-produced plane either.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Except by all accounts the heavy weapons cluster was as experimental as the 21's composite wings. So that shouldn't really count toward or against the 19, since it probably wasn't gonna be part of the mass-produced plane either.

On that note, the HWC was a modular thing, like a FAST Pack. The wings (I hope ) aren't modular/removable on the YF-21.

Even still, the YF-19 outguns the 21. (And the 21 outgunpods the 19 )

And we come to the most major factor: The YF/VF-19 is CHEAPER!

[JB0]

You see that weird thing in Guld's forehead? It's an implant for the BDI/BCS.

You mean the little metal beady thing over his nose? That's only seen when he's in the cockpit, and never when he's outside of the plane?

The one that's part of the helmet, and can even be seen in Max's helmet in Macross 7, despite the VF-22 not having BDI/BCS?

The VF-11 wreck shows first:

The BDI and BCS are prone to failure

Second:

It's too sensitive. "If the YF-21 creates a sudden, downward force... Yes." does not a control input make, yet there we go.

Conveniently ignoring that Guld is a complete loon, and this has been covered up all during the trials DESPITE the fact that it makes him unfit to fly a plane controlled by a neural interface.

SOME part of Guld's brain had to have an exact series of actions planned, because "push down" is WAY too vague to generate a series of control inputs. Computers can't think(except Sharon Apple), and if you tell a computer "push down" it will ask for more detail.

The part that might show the BDI/BCS being failure-prone is immediately before the crash. When Guld sees Isamu, totally flips out, loses control of his battroid, and nearly crashes himself. Again, though, it's dependent on Guld being a complete loon.

[VFTF1]

Second:

It's too sensitive. "If the YF-21 creates a sudden, downward force... Yes." does not a control input make, yet there we go.

This is a good point. And it really has little to do with being a "loon." I mean - when a fellow day dreams - various things come to mind. It seems the 21 requires full concentration at all times (thus the meditative fingers pose that Guld takes) - he has clearly been training "clearing his mind."

Maybe Guld took this project as a means of psycho-therapy as well? Perhaps it was a chance not only to fly planes, but also to straighten himself out? I mean - I never saw him ENJOYING being a loony.

Pete

[Letigre]

This is a good point. And it really has little to do with being a "loon." I mean - when a fellow day dreams - various things come to mind. It seems the 21 requires full concentration at all times (thus the meditative fingers pose that Guld takes) - he has clearly been training "clearing his mind."

It's probably the true problem with BCS, that there seems there is little or no way for the system to differentiate between idle thoughts and actual inputs..atleast only the ones pertaining to flight control. There is certainly something in place that walls it off to certain areas, so that person's entire mind isn't forced to fully concentrate on flying the plane all of the time. There were never instances of crashing into the ground because Guld's communicating with ground control or tossing insults. The only time we witnessed a total failure of BCS was Guld's flashback and subsequent bout of rage, and it's hard to say if it's because he suddenly disconnected from what he was doing (like someone suddenly stopping what they're doing to throw a fit) or if the 21 just couldn't interpet any inputs if his mind was in an unstable state. The forced crash of the Isamu's Thunderbolt didn't diplay any actual system failure, or not a clear cut one. After all, half of the YF-21's controls system was Guld's mind.

Maybe Guld took this project as a means of psycho-therapy as well? Perhaps it was a chance not only to fly planes, but also to straighten himself out? I mean - I never saw him ENJOYING being a loony.

It's hard to say, the only thing was it was pretty obvious he had been trying to fix or hide his problems for a long time.

[VFTF1]

The only time we witnessed a total failure of BCS was Guld's flashback and subsequent bout of rage, and it's hard to say if it's because he suddenly disconnected from what he was doing (like someone suddenly stopping what they're doing to throw a fit) or if the 21 just couldn't interpet any inputs if his mind was in an unstable state.

Of Course!!

The BCS fails when the pilot thinks about anything related to sex!

Pete

[JB0]

Of Course!!

The BCS fails when the pilot thinks about anything related to sex!

Thank the Froating Head. Can you imagine if the battroid...

...

Let's just stop there. I don't want to think about it.

[Mr March]

Given that portions of the BDI and BDS technologies were incorporated into the VF-25 Messiah/EX-Gear and the VF-27 Lucifer, I'd say the innovative YF-21 systems were far from failure. Like I said long ago in this rather old thread, the BDI/BDS were flawed systems, but they were also largely functional. The YF-21's advanced HMI may have fallen somewhat short of expectations and the capabilities were less than ideal, but it's clear the system was workable and had legitimate potential. The later generation variable fighter control systems obviously benefited from the technology.

[shiroikaze]

On that note, the HWC was a modular thing, like a FAST Pack. The wings (I hope ) aren't modular/removable on the YF-21.

Even still, the YF-19 outguns the 21. (And the 21 outgunpods the 19 )

And we come to the most major factor: The YF/VF-19 is CHEAPER!

That doesn't really matter. Look at Northrop Grumman vs Lockheed, the F-22 was more expensive than the YF-23. =\

[edit] Actually ignore me, I'm wrong....

Edited January 27, 2009 by shiroikaze

[Vic Mancini]

The 21 is more cutting edge and experimental in nature but it's hasty to assume that necessarily translates into effectiveness in the field. In the anime we see charts showing the 19 outperforming the 21 in almost every category. You could make the argument that maybe Isamu was a better pilot and overcame the technical superiority of the 21, but that's an assumption IMO. It's just as reasonable to think that the 19 is simply more effective than the 21 when in the hands of a capable pilot. Who really knows?

Also, we see the 19 clearly out-muscle the 21 when it's arm breaks under the strength of the 19 so that's another point to the 19 having a superior B mode.

I like to think the 21 is more cutting edge but in terms of actual practicality the two fighters are evenly matched.

[SchizophrenicMC]

That doesn't really matter. Look at Northrop Grumman vs Lockheed, the F-22 was more expensive than the YF-23. =\

[edit] Actually ignore me, I'm wrong....

I'm among those who felt the YF-23 was the superior plane. Yet, the cheap one was picked. However, it, like the 21, had all kinds of stuff that was new to the aerospace engineering field.

The 21 is more cutting edge and experimental in nature but it's hasty to assume that necessarily translates into effectiveness in the field. In the anime we see charts showing the 19 outperforming the 21 in almost every category. You could make the argument that maybe Isamu was a better pilot and overcame the technical superiority of the 21, but that's an assumption IMO. It's just as reasonable to think that the 19 is simply more effective than the 21 when in the hands of a capable pilot. Who really knows?

Also, we see the 19 clearly out-muscle the 21 when it's arm breaks under the strength of the 19 so that's another point to the 19 having a superior B mode.

I like to think the 21 is more cutting edge but in terms of actual practicality the two fighters are evenly matched.

This is almost Russian vs American.

The 19 is like a Russian plane, in that it's more chunky and simplistic; and the 21 is like an American plane: Skinny and overly complex. However, the Russians have better pilots, as well.

[edwin3060]

I'm among those who felt the YF-23 was the superior plane. Yet, the cheap one was picked. However, it, like the 21, had all kinds of stuff that was new to the aerospace engineering field.

This is almost Russian vs American.

The 19 is like a Russian plane, in that it's more chunky and simplistic; and the 21 is like an American plane: Skinny and overly complex. However, the Russians have better pilots, as well.

Until fairly recently the Russians didn't even have enough money to buy the fuel to keep their fighter pilots flying enough to maintain their flight currency.

I think SK was really influenced by the ATF competition--- to the point where the similar looking fighters both lost

[SchizophrenicMC]

Until fairly recently the Russians didn't even have enough money to buy the fuel to keep their fighter pilots flying enough to maintain their flight currency.

I think SK was really influenced by the ATF competition--- to the point where the similar looking fighters both lost

Like I said: almost Russian.

[anime52k8]

Until fairly recently the Russians didn't even have enough money to buy the fuel to keep their fighter pilots flying enough to maintain their flight currency.

I think SK was really influenced by the ATF competition--- to the point where the similar looking fighters both lost

except with the ATF competition, the cooler fighter really did win.

[shiroikaze]

Until fairly recently the Russians didn't even have enough money to buy the fuel to keep their fighter pilots flying enough to maintain their flight currency.

I think SK was really influenced by the ATF competition--- to the point where the similar looking fighters both lost

What's pretty funny is that when the YF-19 rolled out as the VF-19, the YF-21 was scrapped but reintroduced as the VF-22, special operations fighter (I thought it was a bomber but I guess it's role is more broad...)

I read on Wikipedia that the YF-23 was being reintroduced into another competition as an interim bomber.

Is Kawamori some sort of mild prophet?

@Schizophrenic: I myself prefer the YF-23 as well.

Edited January 30, 2009 by shiroikaze

[edwin3060]

anime52k8: Aww comeon... F-15 w/Stealth features lookalike vs futuristic alien fighter jet and you think the F-15 lookalike is cooler?? I doubt your sense of cool!

Otoh, the better fighter won, and LM deserved the win I think. The YF-23 was little better than a mockup that could fly, while the YF-22 broke the sound barrier in the flyoffs and even fired weapons. Still, the innovation of the YF-23 shows in the changes that they made from the YF-22 to the F-22.

Shiroikaze: That interim bomber project has been shelved. As to SK being a mini-prophet, probably not. He probably drew inspiration for the YF-21-->VF-22 conversion from how the Northrop YF-17 became the MDD/Northrop F/A-18 after losing the LWF competition. He even added 1 to the fighter designation just like the F-18

[anime52k8]

anime52k8: Aww comeon... F-15 w/Stealth features lookalike vs futuristic alien fighter jet and you think the F-15 lookalike is cooler?? I doubt your sense of cool!

the F-22 is the best looking jet fighter since the F-104, the YF-23 looks like a stealth gecko. the YF-23 was an inoperative design, but the F-22 win in my book based on shear aesthetic value.

[edwin3060]

the F-22 is the best looking jet fighter since the F-104, the YF-23 looks like a stealth gecko. the YF-23 was an inoperative design, but the F-22 win in my book based on shear aesthetic value.

Stealth gecko FTW! The YF-22 is just uninspired to me. Besides, they practically transplanted the wings from the YF-23 onto the F-22, as well as some other fuselage shaping features (probably for increased stealth), so if you like the F-22, you gotta have some love for the YF-23.

[shiroikaze]

@anime52k8: Stealth.... gecko?

anime52k8: Aww comeon... F-15 w/Stealth features lookalike vs futuristic alien fighter jet and you think the F-15 lookalike is cooler?? I doubt your sense of cool!

Otoh, the better fighter won, and LM deserved the win I think. The YF-23 was little better than a mockup that could fly, while the YF-22 broke the sound barrier in the flyoffs and even fired weapons. Still, the innovation of the YF-23 shows in the changes that they made from the YF-22 to the F-22.

Shiroikaze: That interim bomber project has been shelved. As to SK being a mini-prophet, probably not. He probably drew inspiration for the YF-21-->VF-22 conversion from how the Northrop YF-17 became the MDD/Northrop F/A-18 after losing the LWF competition. He even added 1 to the fighter designation just like the F-18

Oh I see, bummer.

Edited January 31, 2009 by shiroikaze

[anime52k8]

Stealth gecko FTW! The YF-22 is just uninspired to me. Besides, they practically transplanted the wings from the YF-23 onto the F-22, as well as some other fuselage shaping features (probably for increased stealth), so if you like the F-22, you gotta have some love for the YF-23.

the wings are cool as are the butterfly tails, but everything between them looks wrong. the intake placement and forward fuselage look better on the YF-22/F-22, and the tails stick way out the back. it would have looked much better with more conventional exhausts that stuck out a bit more.

[edwin3060]

the wings are cool as are the butterfly tails, but everything between them looks wrong. the intake placement and forward fuselage look better on the YF-22/F-22, and the tails stick way out the back. it would have looked much better with more conventional exhausts that stuck out a bit more.

Ahh but the tails/exhaust design served the purpose of shielding the exhaust from IR seekers, and the frontal fuselage had to be that long to accomodate the (non-existent) weapons bay. The podded design of the fuselage and the engines meant, theoretically, that you could extent the frontal fuselage for a larger weapons bay with little to no effects on the rest of the aircraft (because the whole fuselage was generating lift, especially the chines on the frontal fuselage) which is probably why it was considered for the interim bomber project. Ahh well. The YF-23 was just too ahead of its time I think. Not to mention the poorer maneuverability relative to the YF-22, which I think is supremely important for an air superiority fighter.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Problem with the 23 was the 21's problem: Too many "new" aerodynamic features. Weird wings/tail/nozzles/etc.

The 23 woulda won had there been time to tweak, and it was cheaper.

[edwin3060]

Would it really have been cheaper? The prototype was cheaper, sure, but that was because MDD/Northrop didn't do things like install an actual weapons bay and re-use parts liberally from their F-15 and F-18s. Otoh, the F-23 would not have had thrust vectoring so that would be a major cost savings.

[renorzeta]

We've had this discussion before, with me writing a lot of it:

FSW doesn't do sh*t, asides from making you one heck of a radar target. There.

(longer answer: it delays tip-stalling at high-alpha due to inverse span-wise flow thus granting greater stability/control for low-speed moves -----that's what it does. Doesn't affect roll, pitch, yaw, or anything else) So you can do an extra-slow "slow speed pass" at an airshow. ::note to self--go find multi-page FSW thread I wrote on the old board::

Supplement: why then are so many FSW planes manueverable? Because if you look at the Su-47, X-29, etc, you'll notice they have canards. THAT is why they can move. And the Su-47 has vectoring, too. You'll notice the Su-37, with vectoring and canards, but no FSW, is about as good as it gets. Same with the F-15ACTIVE. If FSW was so great, don't you think the F-22/23/32/35/Rafale/EF-2000/Grippen might have had it? Nope, but most of them have canards and/or vectoring for their superior agility vs older planes.

YF-19's my fave valk BTW, but I sure won't give it any points for manueverability based on FSW. (Yeah, it looks cool, but doesn't mean anything). It's CANARDS however.... (note that the YF-19 has canards, the Yf-21 doesn't---that's the difference, IMHO).

However, YF-21's have way better vectoring.

(My vote for agilty under most all conditions is the YF-21, the YF-19 would be easier to fly at high-AOA/low speeds---like a Hornet)

Buddy , FSW is do , while u had less wing span but u still had same maneuverable as a SW design , but disadvantage of FSW is to flow is come from outside to center of super structure it's cause Aileron had less effective than normal SW that wind go from inside to outside but to so the tip of wing has higher effective when turning or pitch it's made drag forward to the front make it pitch more angle in less time than SW design when to drag from SW is also high in just mid-to-rear of the plane Canard is need to made it more maneuverable , but do to lack of stong material the super structure and wing structure is need more than SW design to stand again wind at high speed but if u have strong enough material it's not a concern the concern is how we manufacture such a material . the SU-47 and X-29 is a Tech Demo of FSW in need to a challenger from both side US and Russia in Flight Technology but because of FSW has a small amount of Experience and Computer support design and knowledge it's hardly to make it's good Performance while SW design is R&D from a long time since 1945 but FSW had very little model and R&D , but currently all our jet is commonly SW design because we want it's speed to go faster when we doesn't had a strong enough material but when we had composite material than strong enough and easily to manufacturing and much more precise than currently FSW will get in and get more advance than it's had , but in space it's nothing to do with it. i say : in macross there even have a Thermonuclear Reactor and even Fold when we is just not even had real Prototype that can produce enough energy and we not even had a space frigate nor Probes that can survey around our solar system .

[renorzeta]

i think YF,VF-19 is bit better
it's high maneuverable more Thrust/weight ratio and better pilot protection since it's get in side structure and YF-21 VF-22 is still in front of the cockpit position like old design (since VF-0 to vf-11)

YF-21 VF-22 had more Payload and it's better in stealth but do to stealth design is need the power/weight ratio and Maneuverable is sacrifice both YF-21 and YF-19 have active stealth .

VF-19 had better G assist than YF-21 just a little bit but better

YF-21 VF-22 resemble to Zentradi Meltradi Q-Rau do to main engine is still in the Rear of the battroid mode it's prove that it's much more ability to perform better than VF-19 YF-19

Guld Bowmen is in YF-21 for so long since Project start when YF-19 had kindly change 4 test pilot before Isamu Dyson but when Isamu came up in short time he's lead in Super Nova Project.

but the rebalance is need to allow mid skill pilot to operate then it's come up with VF-19F with less engine power and VF-19S with such superior and were introduced with Emerald Force .

at first sight i think YF-21 and VF-22 is resemble to F-22 and YF-23 it's look familiar and cool . but in macross Frontier it's clearly the Un Spacy using VF-171 Nightmare plus do to spec decrease and more cost efficient the VF-19 is the main Fighter of SMS while the L.A.I introduce VF-25 for their SMS . it's clearly VF-19 is use much more than VF-22.

[Bolt]

I love this thread. I get to learn much more about both of these great fighters.

I've always loved both the yf-19 & yf-21 from M+

My lasting, personal favorite is the -19. I won't bother trying to justify it with a technical explanation. You all have done that plenty on both sides of the fence!

I will say the -21/22 is an amazing fighter & I love the Q-rau look in battroid mode.

And I would love to see more of these fighters in action!