YF-19 (VF-19) Vs. YF-21 (VF-21)

[NoSuchFile]

I was under the impression people kept crashing it.

They did keep crashing it, bit dince it's macross and SWAG or whatever you call it is on all the VF's it simply means that it dosen't get disintegrated when it crashes, but the pilots got some action for their money, some died and apparently some of them will never pilot again, they could be lucky if they could walk again

More reasons to go with the 21, the FSW of the 19 makes it tooo dangerous in atmosphere, especialy since they are waaayyyyy back of the plane, talk about instability, waaaaa!!!!!!! BOOM crashed on the ground As I remember, nobody got killed or badly injured test flying the 21, well they never mentionned it but it sounds that way

In the end, if u wanna live, go with the 21 or yeah, send a ghost instead of going out and grab one of those good beers

Edited October 19, 2003 by NoSuchFile

[David Hingtgen]

1. Hey, whoa, hold on. FSW IS NOT INHERENTLY UNSTABLE. PERIOD. Yes, every plane that's FSW so far is inherently unstable. Because they wanted it to be, not because of FSW. F-16 is unstable, and it's got normal wings. You could very, very easily make a stable, FSW plane. You can also make unstable, normal planes. I mean--every F-15E ever has been dark grey. Just because that's the way they're painted. F-15's are not inherently grey, dark grey planes are not necessarily F-15E's. Same with FSW and instability--there's only been 2 built, both unstable *for other reasons*. Not because of FSW.

PS: instability=center of gravity aft of center of lift. Nothing more than that. Put a big, huge, heavy engine in the back of the plane (like the F-16 does) and you will be unstable. Want a big heavy engine in the tail (like an L-1011) but don't want to be unstable? Move the wings (the center of lift) back. Look at most any passenger plane with rear engines--the wing will be VERY far back, to keep the center of lift so far back that the center of gravity can't be behind it.

Having the wings so far back like the YF-19 actually keeps it fairly stable, since unless those engines are SUPER heavy, there's no way the center of gravity is behind the center of lift. (X-29 is such a funky plane it'd be unstable no matter what, regardless of its wings) Again--stability is determined by how far aft the center of gravity is compared to the center of lift. If it's forward, you're stable. (more forward is more stable). If it's the same, you're neutral. If it's aft, you're unstable. The YF-19's center of gravity would have to be like behind itself to be aft of the wing's center of lift.

PPS--stability and all always and only refers to pitch. Roll stability is a simple function of wing dihedral/anhedral. NOBODY will ever, ever want yaw instability, it's bad and means you'll break up. Even the super-unstable F-16 has multiple ventral fins so that it's nice and stable with regards to yaw.

2. While it's usually not simply the plane's fault (as was implied with the YF-19 for simply being hard to fly) you will usually lose quite a few planes early on due to systems failures, etc. F-15 was notable for its LACK of losses. F-14 lost the first plane on the second flight. Had to wait until they built a 2nd F-14 to continue flight testing. Of course, the best early crash is the YF-22, they caught that one on tape. (Another reason the YF-23 should have won--it didn't crash! )

Edited October 19, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[kensei]

2.  While it's usually not simply the plane's fault (as was implied with the YF-19 for simply being hard to fly) you will usually lose quite a few planes early on due to systems failures, etc.  F-15 was notable for its LACK of losses.  F-14 lost the first plane on the second flight.  Had to wait until they built a 2nd F-14 to continue flight testing.  Of course, the best early crash is the YF-22, they caught that one on tape. (Another reason the YF-23 should have won--it didn't crash! ) 

Try telling that to JBO. <_<

Thanks for the info on the FSWs though Dave.

Edited October 19, 2003 by kensei

[Noyhauser]

The ghost drone had a huge advantage over the 21 and the 19 in the show, it pretty well got to fight a worn down Guld and isamu after they went toe to toe at each other for about half an hour. By that time it would have been easy to pick off either fighter with a VF-1 and a peashooter. More or less both fighters were running off of their spare weapons, like lasers and gunpods and had no major weapons (like missiles), which would of made the fight a lot more equal. Given a fully armed VF-19 or 21/22 I’d say the X-9 would be in a lot more trouble. You could just overload the ghost by launching a lot of missiles then filling up the rest of the area with hot lead.

The problems with BCS/BDI was probably due to Guld’s Zentradi,human structure, which the system was not calibrated for. (or so it seems from the movies).

[hellohikaru]

Actually its Guld zentran human structure that allows him to sustain the BCS normal human pilots would not have been able to.

The X-9 Ghost attacks like grease lightning taking out entire squadron's before they knew what hit em.

[Noyhauser]

Not true. If that was the case then the YF-21 would not be considered a fighter for Project supernova, since it was intended as a replacement for the VF-11. That means it would have to be in general distribution, to all unites. If half (or most) of your pilots can't fly it then its not going to be your main fighter is it? According to the movie it was a "neurochemical imbalance" due to Guld's Zentradi/Human heritage that caused him to slam Isamu's plane.

And even if the system caused problems, it could be solved by rotating units in and out more frequently. This is normal operating procedure in any airforces, even under the most dire circumstances. The RAF during the Battle Of Britain rotated their squadrons in and out of active sectors to back water areas like Scotland to give their pilots a rest. Stress related problems cropped up if pilots were sent into combat too much, so they continually rotated pilots.

The X-9 certainly can grease squadrons of Drone Qf-11s or even regular VF-11s, but who couldn't? Vartua did it on a daily basis against the MAcross 7 fleet. VF-11 really is a evolutionary decendant of the VF-1, so much so that it doesn't even change its weapon load (no standard installed missiles) or majorly increases the technology (it transforms the same, and its layout is the same). It just increases the engine size, and changes the fighter's shape. The Yf-19 is a weak decendent of the VF-4 but it is a completely original fighter incorporating new ideas, and the 21 was completely revolutionary, except that you could argue that the Quedenn Rau provided a some lineage. Just as a comparison, look how easily the 21 walked through the Hi Manu missiles, and how much effort it to isamu to dodge just a half dozen of them missiles. Or the Macross 7 series where the elgrazones were decimating Vf-11 squadrons but were easy meat for VF-17,19,22 specialist squadrons. I'd say that a X9 would always be on a losing end when confronted by squadron of Advanced valkryries

(edited for the word squadron in the last line andweak in the YF-19 geneology reference)

Edited October 19, 2003 by Noyhauser

[Final Vegeta]

The story obviously required two fighters build with different philosophies in mind, different but evenly matched.

I'll say that the YF-21/VF-22 was overall superior, but it was obviously lot more expensive. Only in anime an elite wins the war alone.

The YF-21 had an active stealth superior to the YF-19's one, but after the Super Nova contest VF-19s acquired it. I think that VF-22s have an even more powerful active stealth. Excaliburs look like better fighters than Sturmvogels, though. The YF-19 should be more suited to atmospheric flight, while the YF-21 was likely more suited to space (due to Queadluun inertia vector control system), although it could kick ass even in atmosphere.

The Sturmvogels can miss limbs and still fly, and that is a big plus; however, Sturmvogels' cockpits are not protected like those of Excaliburs in Battroid mode. They are the most exposed cockpits of all VFs, dunno why.

The YF-21 seems to be more armed than the YF-19. It has lot of micromissiles loaded in the shoulders. The VF-22 has even a dorsal weapon bay in fighter mode, it can be used without losing stealth. Sturmvogels have powerful lasers that can fire both forward than rearward; the use of energy weapons seems to be derivative of its space connotation, even VF-4 and VF-17 have energy weapons on the arms. The laser on the head of YF-19 however should be a bit more powerful than one of those (judging on the number written in the Compendium, REB-30G), and YF-19 has even wing lasers (REB-23, while YF-21's lasers are respectively AAB-7.5 for the head and REB-22 for the arms). Since YF-19 has more powerful engines, that makes sense.

As for bds/bdi, I think it had some limitations. To send orders to the mecha it seems that the pilot had to consciously exclude his own body (meditation pose), and that requires lots of concentration, which means not all pilots could do it; plus, that seems to stress the brain a lot. I don't think the real advantages were reaction time (a further stress which seems to be used only in extreme cases, like shown in the movie), but "omni-vision" and simultaneous access to all controls.

Personally, I like YF-19 the best because I think it is the kewlest

[Lightning]

The Sturmvogels can miss limbs and still fly, and that is a big plus;

the Sturmvogel didnt have it's engines mounted in it's legs like all the other VF's.

[Noyhauser]

I don't know for sure that the 19 is better in an atmosphere, given the ability of the 21 to utilize Mission adaptive wings. Mission adaptive wings only are useful in an atmosphere, and capability wise they are far more useful than variable geometry wings (especially given that the 21's wings can shape themselves much like variable geometry as well as in the )

I wouldn't fall into the trap of saying that because the lasers on a fighter are labeled a higher number than another model means that they are necessarily stronger. Its possible that they are made for completely different specifications (head lasers are better for burning and cutting stuff and inteded less as a combat weapon, rather than the weapons in the arms of the 21 and the 17). The wing weapons of the 19 are made to fit a lot smaller space than the 21's weapons, so its likely they are not as powerful.

Also the difference between the engines is neglible, 41,000 vs 42000, its not going to do much affect the speed of each figher. its really up to aerodynamics to see who is faster.

[David Hingtgen]

YF-21's a heck of a lot sleeker. The primary drag consideration for high-speed flight is wing leading-edge sweep angle. More is better. And the YF-19's got a negative number!!

Anyways---the YF-21's wing beats just about anything you could imagine. The F-16 has an "automatic reflexing" wing, (basically a rapid-response hinged leading edge) and that's a big reason it's so awesome---so good they designed it into the F-22 as well. A much better discusiion would be YF-19 vs VF-22. (which doesn't have BDS, morphing wings, or other fun toys---simply compare the two planes as they are, no gimmicks)

[mikeszekely]

YF-21's a heck of a lot sleeker. The primary drag consideration for high-speed flight is wing leading-edge sweep angle. More is better. And the YF-19's got a negative number!!

Anyways---the YF-21's wing beats just about anything you could imagine. The F-16 has an "automatic reflexing" wing, (basically a rapid-response hinged leading edge) and that's a big reason it's so awesome---so good they designed it into the F-22 as well. A much better discusiion would be YF-19 vs VF-22. (which doesn't have BDS, morphing wings, or other fun toys---simply compare the two planes as they are, no gimmicks)

Yes, but even then, the VF-22 retains the aforementioned advantages of a sleeker design, passive steath, the Q-Rau's inertia vector control system, and the ability to lose all four of its limbs and still be able to operate in fighter mode. You shoot both the legs off of a YF-19, and at best it'll try to gun you down while it's falling from the sky. Also, as I mentioned, the VF-19 will become cannon fodder in the future, while the VF-22 is reserved for the elite teams like Diamond Force. I'm pretty conviced that the YF-19's victory over the YF-22 came down to three things:

1. More conventional technology. David can say for sure, but I think this is one of the reasons that the F-35 won the JSF competion.

2. Lower cost. Probably one of the reasons why the F/A-22 beat out the YF-23.

3. It was the only one left after the Sharon Apple thing.

Winning SuperNova on those counts says nothing about which plane was actually the superior fighter, which I believe is actually the YF-21/VF-22.

[91WhiskeyM6]

YF-19 faster than the YF-21 ? Didn't seem so when guld was chasing that Ghost fighter in the end. Guld was flooring it before he died.

Which is better? Hard to say, but I would replace the VF-17 Nightmare with the VF-22(more stealthier than the 19) and the VF-11 Thunderbolts with the VF-19s.

Compromise

[Noyhauser]

Guld was straining, because no fighter would be designed to take the tolerances that he put his fighter under, (if the X9 and the YF21 blew up from it I'd bet you that the 19 would of blown up as well.) The later versions of the VF-19 probably could beat the YF-21, (especially the VF-19A which its geometry wings fold back, which the YF-19 could not do), but the VF-22 utilizes a engine that puts nearly 10,000 pounds more thrust than the VF-19, so it would probably be the fastest of them all.

I'd say the 19 was chosen over the 21 for five reasons.

#1 the 21 was way too expensive. the 19 was able to keep up to it for a far cheaper price. It may not of been superior but it "could" depending on the situation, beat a 21... barely. Although the 21 had all the bells and whistles, the little advantages it did givve wasn't worth the cost.

#2 The 21 most likely was a hanger queen. Unconventional avionics, bleeding edge tehcnologies, and insane armaments would of made the thing prohibitivly expensive and so maintence prone that it would cost even more to keep the fighter operational. Look how much calibration the BDI/BCS took for one pilot... think how long it would take for a squadron. the time in the shop is valuable time that would be utilized to keep other fighters flying.

#3 Unproven technology. Certainly there were problems with the 21. BCS/BDI being the main one, but Mission adaptive wings were cause for concern. It would be even more difficult to keep in the air because it had no previous lineage. I'd bet the 19 could cannibalize some parts from previous shinsei aircraft, but the 21 would require unique parts to keep it flying. If you are a special forces group deep in enemy territory, this could be the difference between life and death.

#4 Many of the uber technologies the 21 employed could be retrofitted into the VF-19. Active stealth was the main one. That way the advantage of the 21 would not be so great.

#5 Because the 19 was a more conventional design, it's ability to be modified increased as well. Similar to the previous reason, it just meant that the future of the 19 would be long because you could use the airframe in a lot of other roles. Within five years they had unveiled the S version for space that removed the variable wings and put a hell of a lot more verniers on it. I'd say that you would not see Basara flying a red VF-21 Kai if it won supernova because the Airframe could not be redesigned to accommodate the major changes needed. Look how much stuff they were able to put into the VF22 when the stripped out all the extra stuff like BDI/BCS. Larger engines (nearly 20% more thrust) and they managed to fit in not one but two mini ICBMs.

I'd say that Whiskey's suggestion about the 22 taking over special forces roles would be the most appropriate.

[Uxi]

A much better discusiion would be YF-19 vs VF-22. (which doesn't have BDS, morphing wings, or other fun toys---simply compare the two planes as they are, no gimmicks)

The 22 doesn't have morphing wings? You can clearly see in the animation that Max's VF-22S' wings are normal AND go into the "high-speed" configuration that Guld used to both drift with engines off and then later ram the Ghost...

Now the "flexing" the Guld did on pre-flight could have been something linked to the BCS/BDI... but there's definately SOME variable geometry there... gonna have to check the Compendium...

[David Hingtgen]

Big difference between folding up for high-speed, and MORPHING.

XB-70's folded their wings for high-speed flight back in the 60's. (Which I'd bet good money is the inspriation for the YF-21 doing it, since the XB-70 is where Kawamori got the name Valkyrie)

[Noyhauser]

The 22 doesn't have morphing wings? You can clearly see in the animation that Max's VF-22S' wings are normal AND go into the "high-speed" configuration that Guld used to both drift with engines off and then later ram the Ghost...

Now the "flexing" the Guld did on pre-flight could have been something linked to the BCS/BDI... but there's definately SOME variable geometry there... gonna have to check the Compendium...

Morphing is the Mission Adaptive wing technology (that is the technical term for it in engineering) that I spoke about at great length in my previous post. It was not intendend for widespread production. It is not related to the shockwave riding folding of the wings that the 21 and the XB-70 use. More or less the 21 and the XB-70 ride the expanding shockwave that their own airframe creates and redirects it rearword to provide additional force forward. The XB-70 rode off of the shockwave emited from its engine nacelle while theoretically the 21 would probably ride the shockwave from its oddly shaped nose. You would need to see a windtunnel test of a 21 to see how the disruption of air occurrs to see how the wing cant would exploit that. The 21 was also designed to go at waay faster speeds than the XB70, so its difficult to assess how it would work.

It is possible for the computer to control mission adaptive wings without user input, based on calculations derived from what kind of enviroment the fighter is under (rather than needing BDI/BCS to control it). If the fighter was at low speed and wasn't accelerating then the computer would probably extend the wing to as long as possible with as little sweep as well. These things could be easily programmed into a computer much like automatic transmissions on the car are done (but at a waaaay more complex level). The problem is in the wings themselves. For a metal to be flexible and able to resist the heat of reentry would be ASTRONOMICALLY expensive, and waay beyond our level of technology (overtechnology). Thats why only the YF-21 has it.

[Zentrandude]

Big difference between folding up for high-speed, and MORPHING.

XB-70's folded their wings for high-speed flight back in the 60's. (Which I'd bet good money is the inspriation for the YF-21 doing it, since the XB-70 is where Kawamori got the name Valkyrie)

also having 6 engines for hi-speed helped too i dont think he knew about the XB-70 by the time he was starting macross. That project might been still classified during that time.

anyways you can keep this debate as long as you want. but in the end i agree with 91WhiskeyM6 that the -19 replaces -11s and -22/21 replaces -17s.

[Lightning]

The later versions of the VF-19 probably could beat the YF-21, (especially the VF-19A which its geometry wings fold back, which the YF-19 could not do),

#4 Many of the uber technologies the 21 employed could be retrofitted into the VF-19. Active stealth was the main one. That way the advantage of the 21 would not be so great.

oy....the YF-19 could sweep it's wings back as well, somebody captured a pic of both planes in their High Speed configuration a couple months back from Plus ep 4.

as for #4: the YF-19 had the active stealth, but you just never saw them use it in Plus.

[Lightning]

i dont think he knew about the XB-70 by the time he was starting macross. That project might been still classified during that time.

it was Declassified before Shoji K started doing Macross, XB-70 was done in the mid-seventies (that's what the MiG-25 was built to counter) and even during an interview he said that's where the idea for the Name came from (AFAIK)

[Noyhauser]

oy....the YF-19 could sweep it's wings back as well, somebody captured a pic of both planes in their High Speed configuration a couple months back from Plus ep 4.

as for #4: the YF-19 had the active stealth, but you just never saw them use it in Plus.

Okay the YF-19 had overswept wings, but I'd still take the YF-21's configuration any day. Overswept means that you have NO flight control area because they are now blended into the body. you are relying on thrust alone to get the job done. Its a zero sum system with the 19, either reverse sweep and no control at all or slower with enough control. Isamu probably couldn't pull off the manuver that guld did against the high manuverability missiles because to get to the speed he needed to trick the fuses on the missiles he would not have the control to evade them (he would need to sweep the wings back). The 21 still has its rear horizontal stabilizers (I can't rememer the term they use for them, blended tail/horizontal stabilizers) , and its shockwave mission adaptive wing assembly to control flight AS well as a far superior system of thrust vectoring (three paddles directing thrust 2 dimentionally vs a one dimention horizontal/vertical system that the 19 has) .

The YF-19 did not have Active stealth, as the YF-21 first introduced such a system, which was later retrofitted into the 19 program. Look at the Macross compendium entry for the YF-19 and VF-19, the the YF clearly does not carry such a system as it followed a completely different design philosophy (fast and manuverable.)

[ewilen]

i dont think he knew about the XB-70 by the time he was starting macross.  That project might been still classified during that time.

it was Declassified before Shoji K started doing Macross, XB-70 was done in the mid-seventies

"Done" as in finished. The XB-70 was already a museum piece by 1969.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/modern_flight/mf37.htm

[larry]

Noyhauser....where do you get that the VF-22S has more powerful engines than the VF-19S? Last time I checked the VF-22S uses the ff-2450B engine which produces like 65200kg thrust in space...the VF-19S uses the ff-2500 engine that produces 78950kg of thrust. The VF-22S weighs in at 9000+kg while the VF-19S weighs in at 8500+kg

While I might buy the fact that the vf-22S can fly just as fast as the VF-19 due to a more streamlined design...the vf-22S weighs more and the VF-19 has much greater thrust output.....so maybe they equal out.....but the VF-22S does not have 20% more thrust.

Larry

Edited October 21, 2003 by larry

[JB0]

That's interesting...

I was looking at the Macross Compendium entries, and apparently the VF-19 engines had upgraded cooling so they could get full performance in space, but the VF-22 engines are limited to 40-60% max in space, as are the YF-19 and YF-21.

That could have factored into the YF-19's winning of Project Supernova as well. They appraently weren't able to use the same cooling system they implemented in the VF-19 on the VF-22.

[Noyhauser]

Ah, I was looking at the 19A vs the VF22, I neglected to notice the S version. My extreme apologies on that. the 19S also has more verniers, so true the 19S does have more capability in space like the VF-17, however...

I'd say the 19S's atmospheric capability would be as exceptional as a flying brick. It's wings are fixed, thick, small and with limited control surfaces. I think it's canards are removed as well (not sure about that one). Its sold itself out to max out its capabilities in one area. It definately drags more, and has less control than the 22 in an atmosphere. For an all environ fighter, I'd still chose the VF-22.

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah, the VF-19F/S would suck a$$ in an atmosphere. No ventral fins, no canards, smaller wings (thus smaller moment arms).

[Lightning]

that's why they made the -19A/P for atmosphere use...

[Raptor]

In Macross Plus, I was more of a fan of the YF-19. The smaller profile (target-wise) in every mode makes it a better choice for closer range combat. Also, the FSW gives it built-in instability like a few others have mentioned, which makes it inherently more manueverable when combined with advanced thrust vectoring, manuevering jets, and fly-by-wire computer controls. The ability to glide hang-glider style in battroid mode with the folding wings makes a nice feature (Not to mention looking really cool in the VF-X-2 opening).

But in Macross 7, they butchered the standard VF-19 design (I love the Kai, and the S-variant Blazers head, but those tiny little wings on the F/S, etc look so terrible)... Hands down, I prefer the Sturmvogel II over all of them. It has a much better-looking head than the YF-21, as well as the built-in dual gunpods, and extra missle storage space.

Plus I'm a Max/Milia fanboy.

Edited October 21, 2003 by Raptor

[hellohikaru]

Don't forget Aegis Focker shot down Garland's jammer equipped VF-22 in VFX-2

[Noyhauser]

In Macross Plus, I was more of a fan of the YF-19. The smaller profile (target-wise) in every mode makes it a better choice for closer range combat. Also, the FSW gives it built-in instability like a few others have mentioned, which makes it inherently more manueverable when combined with advanced thrust vectoring, manuevering jets, and fly-by-wire computer controls. The ability to glide hang-glider style in battroid mode with the folding wings makes a nice feature (Not to mention looking really cool in the VF-X-2 opening).

But in Macross 7, they butchered the standard VF-19 design (I love the Kai, and the S-variant Blazers head, but those tiny little wings on the F/S, etc look so terrible)... Hands down, I prefer the Sturmvogel II over all of them. It has a much better-looking head than the YF-21, as well as the built-in dual gunpods, and extra missle storage space.

Plus I'm a Max/Milia fanboy.

sigh...

The YF21's wing structure is better than the 19. read above about mission adaptive wing technology, that is the way of the future and more manuverable, not forward swept wings. So, the 21 would be more manuverable because it has

#1 Larger control surfaces (look at the size of the blended tail/Stabilizer surface and compare them to the YF-19's canards)

#2 A better thrust vectoring system (2 dimentional vs 1 dimentional on the yf19)

#3 Mission adaptive wing technology. It is far better than the rigid FSW technology that the YF19 had. It gives you the perfect wing shape for your wing under any circumstances.

#4 this one is tenative so I'm calling it provisional; BCS and BDI would make it more manuverable by allowing control of more variables. yadayada

The 19 has no manuverability above slow speed. It can either be reallly slow and manuverable (under 500 Kts or so) or really fast an completely unmanuverable. Really slow doesn't matter because Gerwalk is an option, which gives you unparalled manuverability anyways and the YF-21 would have far more manuverablility at the high and mid speeds because it could still utilize its control surfaces.

[imode]

The 19 HAS to rock. It was the hero's plane in two series. Notice how the 21 and 22 were only given to the supporting characters.

Kidding. If you're looking for a logical answer, it won't be from me!

[Anubis]

Yeah, the VF-19F/S would suck a$$ in an atmosphere.    No ventral fins, no canards, smaller wings (thus smaller moment arms).

This would also contribute to the 19's getting pasted at the end of M7. In space they were sweet, but couldn't hack an atmospheric attack.

I have to say, thanks to this thread, my liking of the the 21/22 has grown a fair bit.

Edited October 21, 2003 by Anubis

[mikeszekely]

anyways you can keep this debate as long as you want. but in the end i agree with 91WhiskeyM6 that the -19 replaces -11s and -22/21 replaces -17s.

That's a given. Although the initial batches of VF-19s were used as an elite group during the Protodevlin war, we know that since it won SuperNova that it's going to replace the VF-11 as the main fighter. After the Protodevlin war, the Macross 7 fleet makes their repairs, and more VF-19s will replace the VF-11s lost during the war. But we clearly see in Dynamite 7 that Diamond Force is upgraded with VF-22s, meaning that they replaced the VF-17s for the elites.

While the VF-22 might still cost more, you give the elites the best... and that would mean that the VF-22 is superior to the VF-19.

[mikeszekely]

Don't forget Aegis Focker shot down Garland's jammer equipped VF-22 in VFX-2

I used the VF-22 for that mission.

[Nied]

Okay the YF-19 had overswept wings, but I'd still take the YF-21's configuration any day. Overswept means that you have NO flight control area because they are now blended into the body. you are relying on thrust alone to get the job done. Its a zero sum system with the 19, either reverse sweep and no control at all or slower with enough control. Isamu probably couldn't pull off the manuver that guld did against the high manuverability missiles because to get to the speed he needed to trick the fuses on the missiles he would not have the control to evade them (he would need to sweep the wings back). The 21 still has its rear horizontal stabilizers (I can't rememer the term they use for them, blended tail/horizontal stabilizers) , and its shockwave mission adaptive wing assembly to control flight AS well as a far superior system of thrust vectoring (three paddles directing thrust 2 dimentionally vs a one dimention horizontal/vertical system that the 19 has) .

All the of YF-19's controlls are not exclusively on the wings. In oversweep it would still have controll from it's canards, thrust vectoring and rudders. Similarly the YF-21 would lose some maneuverability in high speed configuration since it would lose the use of its rudders, and the angling of the wings would most likely kill alot of the authority of the ailerons. All of this is moot since we see both aircraft perform admirably in high speed configuration in ep 4.

The YF-19 did not have Active stealth, as the YF-21 first introduced such a system, which was later retrofitted into the 19 program. Look at the Macross compendium entry for the YF-19 and VF-19, the the YF clearly does not carry such a system as it followed a completely different design philosophy (fast and manuverable.)

Actually it does, it's in the compendium and it's mentioned explicitly in the show.

Edited October 21, 2003 by Nied

[Lightning]

#2 A better thrust vectoring system (2 dimentional vs 1 dimentional on the yf19)

oy..(again)...the YF-21/VF-22 has 3 Dimensional thrust vectoring, the YF/VF-19 has 2 Dimensional thrust vectoring...

(please check previous posts and the compendium before posting...)