one_one Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 (edited) I'm sure this was covered on the old board but that is gone now. If I remeber correctly the majority of people felt the 21 was superior over the 19. So not taking into acount the quality of the pilot, which plane is technical supeior and how? I also put in the VF-22 (yesI said 21 in my poll as pointed out!) and VF 19 as thats what the planes became and in the 21's case got rid of the original mind control system so that can't be a reason the 21 is inferior. Have fun. Edited October 17, 2003 by one_one Quote
NoSuchFile Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 I always felt the 21 waas superior to the 19, from their fights, one against another, we see that the two planes specs are pretty close, both are really fast and highly maneuverable. The 21 has a better payload of weapons and has a direct brain controling system, thought it is not perfect and never maid it into the VF-22 this method of piloting an aircraft gives the pilot a faster response time wich can save your butt in a critical situation, just my 2 cents Quote
kensei Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 (edited) Psssst... hey mate, I think you mean the VF-22 Sturmvogel. Good question mate. But I think it really comes down to the pilot as both planes are to me, suited for two totally different pilots. The YF-19 is faster than the YF-21. Might not be much of a difference, but if a missile were on my ass I would like to quickly get away from it! Also I feel the need, the need for speed! To me the VF-19 is superior because, it has the FSWs which causes some inherent instabilities and therefore is more manoeverable and suited for brawling. In fighter mode it would be far superior to the YF-21. THe YF-21 probably has a better weapons system. To my memory, it has micro-missile launchers, a gunpod, and two weapons on its arms(can't recall what they are). If you're the type that like to unload all the fire power you can have into the enemy the YF-21 is your baby. Manoevuring capabilities aren't far off the YF-19's, and I think because of the inertia vector control system it would be far superior to the 19 in battroid mode. I just like the 19 because it suits my style of fighting. I like my battles to be fast and furious. Can't find anymore details though off the top of my head, but as this thread grows, you'll get some I'm sure. Edited October 17, 2003 by kensei Quote
NoSuchFile Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 Strange I always thought the 21 was faster but the 19 was more meneuverable, but one thing i'm sure is that the 21 has two gunpods, oh yeah bring em on Quote
larry Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 The YF-19/VF-19 also has the built in lasers (2) They were at the wing roots and are in the little folded wing cluster things on the legs when in Battroid. The Yf-21 just has it in the arms. The Yf-21 has 2 gunpods, but they are not capable of reload except at base. check Macross Compendium for more information about these two planes. Larry Twichell Quote
Anubis Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 With it's Q-rau traits and payload, I would be under the impression that a VF-22 would technically have the superior Battroid mode. The VF-19 would seem to have the better Fighter mode. If I remember correctly the YF-19 was kind of kicking the YF-21's ass in the trials, from the results display they showed climbing for both during one of the scenes. Switching the control system to a conventional one instead of the BCS might affect the 21's performance for the better, though. Overall they were very comparable VF's. If you anticipate being in Battroid a lot or have piloted a Q-rau before, then a 22 might be preferable. Hence why Max had customs built for himself and Millia in M7. Quote
Angel's Fury Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 The YF-21 may be far superoir than the YF-19, but it all depends on the pilot who flies it. I'd say Isamu is slightly better than Guld. Quote
Hurricane29 Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 Vote-null, which ever I could get my hands on! Quote
Angel's Fury Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 Vote-null, which ever I could get my hands on! Quote
Uxi Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 Is it given that the 19 is more manueverable than the 21? With its variable shape wings (without external control surfaces, flaps, etc) and particularly the high-speed "mode" (wings curled down, vertical stabilizers turned in), I would imagine it should be quite maneuverable. Speed, the 19 wins pretty easy according to the compendium... 21 definately wins in Battroid IMO. U notice these guys dont use Gerwalk as much as the VF-1 seems to? I go with the 21/22, myself. It's far more advanced. What i'm curious about is why the UN Spacy hasn't built a light fighter based on that platform. One engine would work with a design like the 21s... smaller, nimble, and more importantly cheaper. Apparently the UN Spacy doesnt have significant budget restrictions as they ended up going with BOTH Supernova variable fighters... Quote
Zentrandude Posted October 17, 2003 Posted October 17, 2003 its hard to tell realy. in macross plus teh -19 was kicking butt due to the im the hero nothing can kill me complex. but in end of mac 7 the -19s began to be destroyed quiet easily, including basara -19 (still trying to figure out what got him to ripped through his cockpit like that.) and the -22 didnt get killed at all (also from the i was a hero but ppl wont watch macross if they got killed complex). Quote
JB0 Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 The YF-19 is faster than the YF-21. Might not be much of a difference, but if a missile were on my ass I would like to quickly get away from it! Also I feel the need, the need for speed! To me the VF-19 is superior because, it has the FSWs which causes some inherent instabilities and therefore is more manoeverable and suited for brawling. In fighter mode it would be far superior to the YF-21. You can't outrun a missile. Missiles are always faster than fighters of equivalent tech. And forward-swept wings are only an advantage in atmosphere. In space, it's meaningless. Ditto for the YF-21's variable camber wings. My opinion is as follows: The YF-19 killed or crippled several test pilots. The YF-21 didn't. Winner and champion: YF-21. ... Though having a battroid mode that was more than just an origami airplane didn't hurt. Quote
Anubis Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 its hard to tell realy. in macross plus teh -19 was kicking butt due to the im the hero nothing can kill me complex. but in end of mac 7 the -19s began to be destroyed quiet easily, including basara -19 (still trying to figure out what got him to ripped through his cockpit like that.) and the -22 didnt get killed at all (also from the i was a hero but ppl wont watch macross if they got killed complex). Simple Explanation: Max and Millia were in the -22's. They could have gone out in 11's, 17's, or 19's just as easily and come out alive. I still think they liked the Q-rau aspects personally. Quote
rsvictor1976 Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 I'd go with the YF-19 cause it looks better. Quote
JB0 Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 its hard to tell realy. in macross plus teh -19 was kicking butt due to the im the hero nothing can kill me complex. but in end of mac 7 the -19s began to be destroyed quiet easily, including basara -19 (still trying to figure out what got him to ripped through his cockpit like that.) and the -22 didnt get killed at all (also from the i was a hero but ppl wont watch macross if they got killed complex). Simple Explanation: Max and Millia were in the -22's. They could have gone out in 11's, 17's, or 19's just as easily and come out alive. I still think they liked the Q-rau aspects personally. Max and Milla VF-1s VS the entire Protodevlin army! Final tally: Protodevlin destroyed. VF-1 paint jobs scratched. Quote
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 Man, you people ask hard questions! There should have been a "Both are equally matched" choice, but I had to swing towards the YF-19. Quote
kensei Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 My opinion is as follows:The YF-19 killed or crippled several test pilots. The YF-21 didn't. Winner and champion: YF-21. Just because the YF-19 crippled test pilots or even killed them, doesn't mean it's superior. Look more towards the technical specs. You say that in the atmosphere FSWs have the advantage. In space none. YF-19 wins in atmosphere, draws in space. YF-21's variable camber wings loses to the 19s atmosphere capabilities. Draws with 19 in space. 19 wins. The reason as to why the VF-19s were destroyed quite easily was because 1. the design was moving in to become the new mainstream fighter and 2. Max and Millia weren't piloting them. There were only a couple of VF-22s anyway. PS I really wish that Guld and Isamu had a longer period duking it out in GERWALK mode. It would make my decision a lot easier because the two fighters are just so close. But in Plus, the 19 was kickin in the Supernova Project anyway. Quote
JB0 Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 My opinion is as follows:The YF-19 killed or crippled several test pilots. The YF-21 didn't. Winner and champion: YF-21. Just because the YF-19 crippled test pilots or even killed them, doesn't mean it's superior. Look more towards the technical specs. Inferior. No matter how good a plane is on paper, if pilots CAN'T fFLY IT it's worthless. YF-19 wins in atmosphere, draws in space. YF-21's variable camber wings loses to the 19s atmosphere capabilities. Draws with 19 in space. I don't see that. The variable camber wings were a quite awesome cabability. Whether they were greater, equal, or lesser than the forward-swept wings is unknown. But in Plus, the 19 was kickin in the Supernova Project anyway. That was Isamu, not the plane. If you recall, before Isamu the YF-19 was trailing WAY behind. You know, because the pilots couldn't keep it in the air. Isamu was a tad crazy, and was pushing the plane pretty hard. And that showed in the status screen. The YF-21 was showing pretty balanced stats, but the -19 was all over the place. Some fields it clearly excelled in, others it was lagging somewhat in. Probably lagged in the tests requiring subtlety, like saving the VF-1J from the Nousjadeul-Ger(as I recall, Isamu wasted the VF-1 in his rush to get a shot off before Guld). Quote
David Hingtgen Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 We've had this discussion before, with me writing a lot of it: FSW doesn't do sh*t, asides from making you one heck of a radar target. There. (longer answer: it delays tip-stalling at high-alpha due to inverse span-wise flow thus granting greater stability/control for low-speed moves -----that's what it does. Doesn't affect roll, pitch, yaw, or anything else) So you can do an extra-slow "slow speed pass" at an airshow. ::note to self--go find multi-page FSW thread I wrote on the old board:: Supplement: why then are so many FSW planes manueverable? Because if you look at the Su-47, X-29, etc, you'll notice they have canards. THAT is why they can move. And the Su-47 has vectoring, too. You'll notice the Su-37, with vectoring and canards, but no FSW, is about as good as it gets. Same with the F-15ACTIVE. If FSW was so great, don't you think the F-22/23/32/35/Rafale/EF-2000/Grippen might have had it? Nope, but most of them have canards and/or vectoring for their superior agility vs older planes. YF-19's my fave valk BTW, but I sure won't give it any points for manueverability based on FSW. (Yeah, it looks cool, but doesn't mean anything). It's CANARDS however.... (note that the YF-19 has canards, the Yf-21 doesn't---that's the difference, IMHO). However, YF-21's have way better vectoring. (My vote for agilty under most all conditions is the YF-21, the YF-19 would be easier to fly at high-AOA/low speeds---like a Hornet) Quote
IIymij Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 u guys sure do tink alot so i have decided to try to add my blogg as this thread issues from a technical point of view there we should consider having the same pilot fly both planes so you get the same skill level in pilot so it does affect the technical results / kinda like saying if you to put guld in the yf-19 or isamu into the yf-21 (although i tink isamu would be better off in a vf-22 due to his incontrolable brain activites always...) i think the yf-21 should win hands down due to the fact of the bcs, how much fast can you pilot a plane? all you have to do is think it and it happens and has some weird 3d stuff that can predict an attack spread of missles you can almost the tell the future so you can be 1 step ahead of the guy all the time the yf-19 is faster but it doesnt have the knowledge of what could be the future unlike the yf-21 and "knowledge is power" so you try to predict whats gonna happen but your predictions dont have a good calculation unlike the yf-21 so you could possibley be wrong unles luck is one of your skills now whereas if your comparing vf-19 / yf-19 with just the vf-22 i think the 19 would win cause speed is a bigger factor / if you cant get hit then how can you lose? its like saying okies if the 22 hits you once but in that duration of time the 19 can hit you 3 times cuz he dodged 2 of your missles then the potenial of the 22 being a bad ass drops exponentially cuz you hurt more then he is but alas you could say the 22 has a bigger load of missles so he can fire twice as many missles so to take that into calc the 19 still gets hit twice whereas a 22 could get hit 3 times its better to hit then have an unorganized fury of missles cause the hit is all that matters but then again the 19 does move faster so perhaps he could get a lock more times then you could like he could lock onto you twice when you only had one lock to fire your missles i would say a 21 / 22 would be better in big space battles due to its heavy payload of missles killing more then 1 enemy @ a time whereas a 19 would could take out individual tragets easier (their commanders?) so they both have their little specialties well these r just simple numbers to keep it easy for me, i dont no much about physics or anything so i couldnt really tell you how much of a differene in the wing types would make but here i got vf-19 / yf-19 vs yf-21 ---> 21 easy cuz of the bcs vf-19 / yf-19 vs vf-22 ---> 19 i think this is my blogg and really who knows? i honestly wanted to say the 19 wins hands down due to my love for it but realistically 21 is the best machine out and how can u fly a plane in battleroid with just 2 joysticks and footpedals???? Quote
one_one Posted October 18, 2003 Author Posted October 18, 2003 I go with the 21/22, myself. It's far more advanced. Could you expand on this a bit more, how and why? Quote
one_one Posted October 18, 2003 Author Posted October 18, 2003 We've had this discussion before, with me writing a lot of it:FSW doesn't do sh*t, asides from making you one heck of a radar target. There. (longer answer: it delays tip-stalling at high-alpha due to inverse span-wise flow thus granting greater stability/control for low-speed moves -----that's what it does. Doesn't affect roll, pitch, yaw, or anything else) So you can do an extra-slow "slow speed pass" at an airshow. ::note to self--go find multi-page FSW thread I wrote on the old board:: Supplement: why then are so many FSW planes manueverable? Because if you look at the Su-47, X-29, etc, you'll notice they have canards. THAT is why they can move. And the Su-47 has vectoring, too. You'll notice the Su-37, with vectoring and canards, but no FSW, is about as good as it gets. Same with the F-15ACTIVE. If FSW was so great, don't you think the F-22/23/32/35/Rafale/EF-2000/Grippen might have had it? Nope, but most of them have canards and/or vectoring for their superior agility vs older planes. YF-19's my fave valk BTW, but I sure won't give it any points for manueverability based on FSW. (Yeah, it looks cool, but doesn't mean anything). It's CANARDS however.... (note that the YF-19 has canards, the Yf-21 doesn't---that's the difference, IMHO). However, YF-21's have way better vectoring. (My vote for agilty under most all conditions is the YF-21, the YF-19 would be easier to fly at high-AOA/low speeds---like a Hornet) It would be good if you could find that old post! Also in conclusion which plane did you think is superior, I know you said the yf-19 is your fav but does that mean you think it is technically superior? Quote
mikeszekely Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 My vote goes for the VF-22. Although I'm given to understand that the both the 19 and the 22 ended up with some form of active stealth technology, the 22 looks like it'd have a smaller radar cross section without it... so the 22 is the only one that incorporates passive stealth. As David pointed out, the forward swept wings don't really mean much on the 19, and although the canards help in an atmosphere, the VF-22 has the Q-Rau's inertia vector control system. Without a full count and listing of locations for all the verniers on both fighters, I'm not handing the "most manoeverable" award to the 19 yet. Now we toss in the fact that they 22 can continue to operate in fighter mode with all four of its limbs blown (while the 19 would be missing... well, the entire back half of the fighter...), and the fact that an average pilot can fly it without killing himself... I think it's obvious which is the better fighter. Which makes sense... even though the 19 won (by virtue of being the last fighter standing), the 19 was going to be the main fighter... in time, the cannon fodder, even. Meanwhile, the UN buys the 22 for it's spec ops groups... in other words, the elites who get the better machines. Quote
Mr March Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 Although I am a huge fan of both planes, I've always felt the YF-21 was more advanced and had more potential. The 360 degree imaging used in the YF-21 would be superior to the virtual enviroment cockpit in the YF-19 because the monitors used in the 19 would still skew perspective and angle. While the Brain Direct System (BDS) was flawed, the prototype was almost practical. The series showed the technology was certainly viable enough to be refined and perfected into a superior flight control system. But the prototype was destroyed and the competition was nearing it's projected close anyway. Also, the variable sturcture wings on the 21 would be an areonautical engineer's dream, allowing the 21 multiple different flight configurations to suit the condition. Go 21! Quote
Noyhauser Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 (edited) I’m going to put my lot in for the YF-21. But the YF-21 is a technology demonstrator, and a lot of its components would not be seen in mass production. I think the capability that really gives the 21 its edge in fighter mode other than the BCI/BDS is “mission adaptive wings” (MAW) that we see Guld test out in the first episode (when the wing effectively morphs its size). No plane in the world today has MAWs (there are some Nasa testing stuff since the 1980s but its way too expensive to build into a plane), and the ability for the YF21 to utilize blows the variable geometry wings the 19 uses out of the water. If the 21 needs more lift, it can fatten its wing, or slim it for extra speed. It can also make the best shape for maneuvering. (there is far more it can do, but its a long explaination and very technical... so I'll save you the engineering jargon) Also I’d say the 21 is faster because it’s wings can ride a shockwave in its high speed mode, like the XB-70 Valkryie program in the late 1960s. The aerodynamics of the YF-19 and VF-19A is limited to a variable geometry system while the 21 can adapt its wings exactly to the maximum effectiveness to any situation that it encounters. Secondly the BCS/BDI is a far more efficient system to control a fighter. It knocks off a second or two off of human reaction time that we take by sending information from our brain to our hands to control the fighter by taking information straight from the brain. Also it’s a lot more effective at giving a pilot situational awareness. Even with the 3D cockpits that are introduced in the 19, there is still a blind spot behind and below the pilot, while the 21 doesn’t have that. The BCS also allows Guld to control FAR more aspects of the 21 than the 19 ever could with conventional controls. We see him control the thrust vectoring system and the MAW with his hands and feet. HE can query the computer or kill the limiter by just a thought. Even if 19 had voice recognition software, it would take him several seconds to do it verbally. The anti-UN even acknowledges this and designs the Pheyos valkryie with a BDI/BCS system. On the matter of a limiter, I’m not too sure what that means. Does it mean that the 19 cannot do some things that the 21 can? Maybe the 19 has a limiter as well. The inertia vector system probably gives the 21 equal or better handling than the 19, and blow off limbs just add to the unit’s survivability. Furthermore, the 21 has two gunpods AND two large scale lasers in its arms. That surely beats 19’s reloadable gunpod and head lasers. But the 21 doesn’t carry 2 hi maneuverability missiles like the 19 does. (very very cool) But overall, the 21 is a technology demonstrator. Its very best piece of equipment that General Galaxy could put together, and probably not intended for mass production. Its doubtful that a mass-produced version (either a VF-21 or 22) would have all the bells and whistles that the Yf-21 had. Edited October 18, 2003 by Noyhauser Quote
Batou Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 The 360 degree imaging used in the YF-21 would be superior to the virtual enviroment cockpit in the YF-19 because the monitors used in the 19 would still skew perspective and angle. I'd always assumed the cockpit displays in the 19 were holographic due to the prevalence of that tech everywhere else in the Macross world. I don't see anything in the compendium to confirm this, though, so I might be completely wrong. If they were holographic, the pilot's perspective shouldn't be altered at all. I do think the BDS was abandoned a little too hastily - just think what Max could have done with it in M7 (if they managed to work out all the bugs). For the record I love 'em both, but the 21/22 is my fave. Quote
one_one Posted October 18, 2003 Author Posted October 18, 2003 I’m going to put my lot in for the YF-21. But the YF-21 is a technology demonstrator, and a lot of its components would not be seen in mass production. I think the capability that really gives the 21 its edge in fighter mode other than the BCI/BDS is “mission adaptive wings” (MAW) that we see Guld test out in the first episode (when the wing effectively morphs its size). No plane in the world today has MAWs (there are some Nasa testing stuff since the 1980s but its way too expensive to build into a plane), and the ability for the YF21 to utilize blows the variable geometry wings the 19 uses out of the water. If the 21 needs more lift, it can fatten its wing, or slim it for extra speed. It can also make the best shape for maneuvering. (there is far more it can do, but its a long explaination and very technical... so I'll save you the engineering jargon) Also I’d say the 21 is faster because it’s wings can ride a shockwave in its high speed mode, like the XB-70 Valkryie program in the late 1960s. The aerodynamics of the YF-19 and VF-19A is limited to a variable geometry system while the 21 can adapt its wings exactly to the maximum effectiveness to any situation that it encounters. Secondly the BCS/BDI is a far more efficient system to control a fighter. It knocks off a second or two off of human reaction time that we take by sending information from our brain to our hands to control the fighter by taking information straight from the brain. Also it’s a lot more effective at giving a pilot situational awareness. Even with the 3D cockpits that are introduced in the 19, there is still a blind spot behind and below the pilot, while the 21 doesn’t have that. The BCS also allows Guld to control FAR more aspects of the 21 than the 19 ever could with conventional controls. We see him control the thrust vectoring system and the MAW with his hands and feet. HE can query the computer or kill the limiter by just a thought. Even if 19 had voice recognition software, it would take him several seconds to do it verbally. The anti-UN even acknowledges this and designs the Pheyos valkryie with a BDI/BCS system. On the matter of a limiter, I’m not too sure what that means. Does it mean that the 19 cannot do some things that the 21 can? Maybe the 19 has a limiter as well. The inertia vector system probably gives the 21 equal or better handling than the 19, and blow off limbs just add to the unit’s survivability. Furthermore, the 21 has two gunpods AND two large scale lasers in its arms. That surely beats 19’s reloadable gunpod and head lasers. But the 21 doesn’t carry 2 hi maneuverability missiles like the 19 does. (very very cool) But overall, the 21 is a technology demonstrator. Its very best piece of equipment that General Galaxy could put together, and probably not intended for mass production. Its doubtful that a mass-produced version (either a VF-21 or 22) would have all the bells and whistles that the Yf-21 had. Hey, if you want to go into detail about the technicalities of the Yf-21, morphing wings or anything else, on why you think it is superior I would love to read it. That goes for anyone else who wants to write some essays on the post! some people probably wouldn't want to read long posts but then they don't have. Myslef and i'm sure some others would love to read them! Quote
Commander McBride Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 I'm not sure about the BDS. I think that it, in a way, would be much like fly-by-wire. "Makes an average pilot good, but an exceptional pilot average". I see too many flaws in the idea for it to really work. Number one, a pilot trained in traditional flying would have a lot of trouble adapting to the system. I also can imagine problems with needing to do things simultaneously. In a normal fighter, it's not hard at all to look to the side while remaining in control, like in combat. But with the BDS, the specific thought order has to be given to change view direction, while still also maintainiing control inputs. Overall, the BDS is not as good of a system as it's made out to be. While it can improve the skills of an average pilot, a veteran will only be hindered by it. Quote
Lightning Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 (edited) hey people, dont forget that there were 2 planes of each (2 YF-19's and 2 YF-21's) the two YF-19's were identical whilist the one 21 had "standard" controls and the other the BCS/BDI. Alot of people tend to forget that. my wonder is if the 19 killed some of it's test pilots, how did it do it? i mean, it looks like the plane's basically in one piece thru the whole program, it just needed refitting and such because of the accidents. So was it that the G's were too high for the pilots to handle and they blacked out before the put the plane into the ground (or something like that)? FYI: Isamu flew the YF-19 #2 while Guld had YF-21 #1 Edited October 18, 2003 by Lightning 06 Quote
CAG Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 Commander McBride Posted on Oct 18 2003, 01:31 PM-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure about the BDS. I think that it, in a way, would be much like fly-by-wire. "Makes an average pilot good, but an exceptional pilot average". I see too many flaws in the idea for it to really work. Number one, a pilot trained in traditional flying would have a lot of trouble adapting to the system. I also can imagine problems with needing to do things simultaneously. In a normal fighter, it's not hard at all to look to the side while remaining in control, like in combat. But with the BDS, the specific thought order has to be given to change view direction, while still also maintainiing control inputs. Overall, the BDS is not as good of a system as it's made out to be. While it can improve the skills of an average pilot, a veteran will only be hindered by it. I don't know dude. I'm reposting something I found and posted in the Other section, but didn't get much attention there. Basically it looks like the first step towards the BDS. Monkeys can do it! The human brain is incredibly complex, and piloting an aircraft is the art of multi-tasking perfected. I think that eventually pilots would be able to adapt to this new technology.....which could be a lot sooner than we think. Quote
Mr March Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 The 360 degree imaging used in the YF-21 would be superior to the virtual enviroment cockpit in the YF-19 because the monitors used in the 19 would still skew perspective and angle. I'd always assumed the cockpit displays in the 19 were holographic due to the prevalence of that tech everywhere else in the Macross world. I don't see anything in the compendium to confirm this, though, so I might be completely wrong. If they were holographic, the pilot's perspective shouldn't be altered at all. I do think the BDS was abandoned a little too hastily - just think what Max could have done with it in M7 (if they managed to work out all the bugs). For the record I love 'em both, but the 21/22 is my fave. That's a tough one. Anime is inherently depthless (setting aside CGI), so who can say if the Virtual Enviroment Cockpit on the YF-19 was actually holographic or not. I'm not exactly sure what the implications of the holographic system would be, but traditional holograms are still angle dependant. Even simply turning one's head inside the cockpit would be sufficient to offset the proper angle of view for a holographic screen, thus skewing the pilot's perspective of the enviroment around him. I'm actually very split on the two planes. I really like them both so much. That's probably the reason why I enjoyed Macross Plus as much as I did. But if I had to go with one, I'd probably pick the YF-21. Quote
Lightning Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 one of the things that i do like about the 21, is the guns that it has on it's arms, just in case it loses the gunpod(s) it still has something to fire. Plus the fact it also carries all the micro missles it needs internally. (it really reminds me of the VF-4 in this fashion) Quote
Mr March Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 I'm not sure about the BDS. I think that it, in a way, would be much like fly-by-wire. "Makes an average pilot good, but an exceptional pilot average". I see too many flaws in the idea for it to really work. Number one, a pilot trained in traditional flying would have a lot of trouble adapting to the system. I also can imagine problems with needing to do things simultaneously. In a normal fighter, it's not hard at all to look to the side while remaining in control, like in combat. But with the BDS, the specific thought order has to be given to change view direction, while still also maintainiing control inputs.Overall, the BDS is not as good of a system as it's made out to be. While it can improve the skills of an average pilot, a veteran will only be hindered by it. I disagree. Naturally, there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to any control system...new or old. However, the point I was trying to make is that while real world logic would tell us the BDS is impractical due to the way the human brain functions, it was obviously not impossible in the Macross universe. In fact, it was not only possible, but it was actually a viable system that had practical applications despite the flaws. Because of that fact, it's very likely (more so than not) that the system could be improved and refined to the point that it would be the ideal control system for the fighter. As for pliot multiple tasking, the BDS may lack some advantages of a less technological aspect like the "walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time" analogy. However, those few disadvantages would be offset by the remarkable response time, input speed, and situational awareness granted by the BDS. In fact, who is to say the BDS system needs control like a traditional system. Think about how the BDS would work. The pilot of a BDS craft may not be required to maintain a course while looking around outside. The BDS may actually maintain flight control until a new command is issued, sort of like a queue system for input. In this case, the BDS would actually be superior in the circumstance you've given. Perhaps the BDS is a little overrated in the great debates here at MW. But it's certainly viable as shown in the series and has great potential. Quote
hellohikaru Posted October 19, 2003 Posted October 19, 2003 my wonder is if the 19 killed some of it's test pilots, how did it do it? i mean, it looks like the plane's basically in one piece thru the whole program, it just needed refitting and such because of the accidents. So was it that the G's were too high for the pilots to handle and they blacked out before the put the plane into the ground (or something like that)? hmmmm.......maybe they died of heart attack due to Isamu's outrageous uber piloting skills Could be a crash due to lost of control. It was a test program so they could simply rebuild the plane everytime it broke. The BCS may not have killed it pilots but it left them with long term health problems(compendium?). Even Guld who is half zentran seems affected. IMO the Ghost Drone prototype is by far the best fighter overall and that "nothing can harm me complex" aside i will say even the VF-22(YF-21) can defeat it. Quote
JB0 Posted October 19, 2003 Posted October 19, 2003 hey people, dont forget that there were 2 planes of each (2 YF-19's and 2 YF-21's) the two YF-19's were identical whilist the one 21 had "standard" controls and the other the BCS/BDI. Alot of people tend to forget that.my wonder is if the 19 killed some of it's test pilots, how did it do it? i mean, it looks like the plane's basically in one piece thru the whole program, it just needed refitting and such because of the accidents. So was it that the G's were too high for the pilots to handle and they blacked out before the put the plane into the ground (or something like that)? FYI: Isamu flew the YF-19 #2 while Guld had YF-21 #1 They DID mention that the YF-19 was at the factory for repairs when Isamu arrived. I was under the impression people kept crashing it. Quote
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