Transformer Super Thread 6

[Tober]

IGN.com - ILM on Transformers Effects

QUESTION: What is the ratio or car-to-robot? It would appear that the robots contain much more material than could actually fit into their car form.

FARRAR: It's a cheat. There is scaling up and down and sizes of parts may increase or decrease in going from the car to the transformed robot. The upshot was that we added a tremendous amount of parts and pieces beyond our first designs. Optimus got a huge layering of parts. Again, you're making a movie, so you're always judging what you're creating by what the camera sees, so you're constantly saying, 'Oh, we need a hubcab here, a clutch-plate there.' We had to add a lot of movement that we didn't anticipate in the beginning.

[Twoducks]

I only see parts moving around in these two early videos of Prime.

http://www.benprocter.com/SITEv2/HTML/PROJPAGE_Trans_02.html

If there was cheating, it's practically cero compared to all the cartoon magic we are used to.

[eriku]

When they said 'no mass shifting', they pretty much meant things that would be really noticeable such as Megatron turning into a hand gun or Soundwave into a cassette player. But, the All Spark's reformatting sequence, in my opinion, was partly to telegraph to the audience the very concept of mass shifting so they can work Soundwave into a sequel later on, so the audience doesn't like, laugh or something if Soundwave becomes small enough for Sam or somebody to carry.

You may be right about them getting us used to the idea. However, I got the impression from Bay and others that mass shifting was a ludicrous concept that they were avoiding at all costs. The reality is that weather it's on a small or large scale makes no difference, mass shifting is mass shifting, period. The AllSpark thing was a glaring example. I remember all the talk leading up to the release of the movie about how things were only going to transform how they would in the real world and how something wouldn't magically go from being really big to really small and vice-versa. Then I see the Allspark filling a giant cavern and then folding in on itself to the size of a basketball...yeah. So much for no mass-shifting.

Overall, I don't care if there is or isn't any. I was never bothered by Megatrons or Soundwave's mass shifting because it's all a crazy fantasy world of sentient robots anyway, so I was never prone to applying any real laws of physics to the mythos.

One thing I thought was interesting about my perception of the movie is that I loved it at the theater and so did my wife. When we bought the DVD and watched it at home, we both had lost much of the initial joy in watching it and kind of resorted to making fun of many of the stereotypical 'slam-bang action movie' elements. While I still think it's enjoyable, I definitely don't think the designs of the robots in the movie will have the same kind of long-lasting appeal to me that the originals and more 'conventional' Transformer designs do.

Edited October 24, 2007 by eriku

[mpchi]

Yeah. If they haven't make it such a big deal for "no mass-shifting" in interviews, it wouldn't be much of an issue or point of discussion. Its when they claimed that they are not doing that because its only good for old cartoons, but now we see more and more info on 'cheats' they used, it kind of ruins their credibility. I also like the movie regardless there is mass-shifting or no. But feel that they are not that honest about their approach.

[David Hingtgen]

IMHO, there's no way Frenzy fits into a small boombox. Nor could his head make a cellphone. There was "noticeable" mass shifting (the Mass Effect?) involving his transformations. Should have made him even smaller in bot mode.

[eriku]

IMHO, there's no way Frenzy fits into a small boombox. Nor could his head make a cellphone. There was "noticeable" mass shifting (the Mass Effect?) involving his transformations. Should have made him even smaller in bot mode.

Ah yes, the cell-phone Frenzy really made me laugh. Aside from mass-shifting, his crab/head form had absolutely no physical resemblence to the cell phone he turned into.

[M'Kyuun]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Frenzy's head was quite large to become a cell phone. Good point on his head's aesthetic being completely non-compatible with a cell, either. I can't see how any of the T-formers in this movie could come together so seamlessly in vehicle form. They should be spiderwebbed with fine seamlines, for all the fragmenting that occurs during transformation. The anime magic is pretty apparent throughout.

Overall, I thought the movie was so-so. I liked the attack on SOCCENT at the beginning, the serious tone. I wish the focus had been more on the conflict and personalities among the robots and less on the kids. Sector 7 was just plain cliche' and, well, dumb. Megatron wakes up speaking English...why would he? He hasn't had access to the Web, and more importantly, why would he deign to speak our language? The long rocky relationship between Megs and Starscream, an odd mix of animosity and respect, was supposed to be conveyed by a single exclamation by Megatron concerning Starscream's apparent failure "once again". And, neither Bonecrusher nor Devastator(Brawl) even had so much as one word of dialog. They existed only to provide a target for final battles. Sadly, this wasn't the movie I was hoping for. It was cheesy, the humor was groanworthy, and it did not live up to its title in execution.

OK, I 've always had a soft spot for the G1 3-part pilot's story. It provided enough background to explain their exodus from Cybertron and their ages-old conflict, told the story through Spike's eyes without his character becoming the focus, and better developed a large number of T-formers' characters in less time than Bay's movie. Too, Spike was already an adult working on an oil rig with his father, thus eliminating cheesy adolescent shenanigans. IMHO, the pilot, although targeted at 10-14 year-olds in the mid-80s, had a more mature tone overall. I hope the second movie focuses on the robots, finds a darker more serious tone, eschews the adolescent humor(like robots pissing on people), relegates the kids to background filler, omits Sector 7 altogether, and...well, I know none of this going to happen but I can hope.

[Alpha OTS]

Megatron wakes up speaking English...why would he? He hasn't had access to the Web, and more importantly, why would he deign to speak our language?

Megatron's been conscious despite being frozen. There's been humans teeming over him long enough for him to learn our language, which has been 70+ years. The reason he spoke our language when he awoke was to openly refute with disdain the "He's not Megatron, he's N.B.1" line. Weaving's inflection was way off here, and the line didn't come across as it was supposed to.

Definitle agree about the S1 G1 intro trilogy. It's held up pretty well, especially for its age and it being a kid's cartoon. Without it, we wouldn't have all the Transformers mythos/product we have today, imo.

[Ratchet]

I find myself liking the movie less than my non-Transformers nerd coworkers and friends. It's unnerving.

Ditto.

[areaseven]

[Fit For Natalie]

You may be right about them getting us used to the idea. However, I got the impression from Bay and others that mass shifting was a ludicrous concept that they were avoiding at all costs. The reality is that weather it's on a small or large scale makes no difference, mass shifting is mass shifting, period. The AllSpark thing was a glaring example. I remember all the talk leading up to the release of the movie about how things were only going to transform how they would in the real world and how something wouldn't magically go from being really big to really small and vice-versa. Then I see the Allspark filling a giant cavern and then folding in on itself to the size of a basketball...yeah. So much for no mass-shifting.

Overall, I don't care if there is or isn't any. I was never bothered by Megatrons or Soundwave's mass shifting because it's all a crazy fantasy world of sentient robots anyway, so I was never prone to applying any real laws of physics to the mythos.

The thing that makes the All Spark's mass shifting more 'acceptable' to the audience is that it's a mysterious, mystical Plot Device from God, plus the scene is well-visualised so people didn't laugh when it became small enough for Bumblebee, then Sam, to hold. I thought the reactions they gave to Frenzy (awe) and Bumblebee (hesitation at touching it) to the All Spark were really nice.

IMHO, there's no way Frenzy fits into a small boombox. Nor could his head make a cellphone. There was "noticeable" mass shifting (the Mass Effect?) involving his transformations. Should have made him even smaller in bot mode.

Frenzy was designed long before his alternate mode was finalized, so yeah, he turns into nothing.

OK, I 've always had a soft spot for the G1 3-part pilot's story. It provided enough background to explain their exodus from Cybertron and their ages-old conflict, told the story through Spike's eyes without his character becoming the focus, and better developed a large number of T-formers' characters in less time than Bay's movie. Too, Spike was already an adult working on an oil rig with his father, thus eliminating cheesy adolescent shenanigans. IMHO, the pilot, although targeted at 10-14 year-olds in the mid-80s, had a more mature tone overall. I hope the second movie focuses on the robots, finds a darker more serious tone, eschews the adolescent humor(like robots pissing on people), relegates the kids to background filler, omits Sector 7 altogether, and...well, I know none of this going to happen but I can hope.

Erm, no, Spike was not 'already an adult'. During MTMTE and Season 1 he was 14 years old, so he's even younger than Sam, and can't actually drive. It's a fairly common comment that it's a mystery why a kid works on an oil refinery (in reality it's a contrived set up for the Decepticons to attack so that the Autobots could defend it and immediately befriend the kid who just happened to work there with his dad.)

One problem G1 had (MTMTE or not) was lack of character development outside of the core characters due to a large cast of characters. At most, one character got an episode to himself, and from then on disappeared into the background. However, Spike and Sparkplug generally had decent development because they appeared in most episodes. Really, humans have always been prominent principal characters in Transformers.

Where did you get that G1 was targeted at 10-14 year olds? Which age group do you think they were selling the toys to? By comparison, Beast Wars had a more mature tone and heavier issues, with a considerable dash of slapstick and lowbrow 'adolescent humour. One hallmark of Transformers cartoons (except for Beast Machines) is to never take itself too seriously.

You give G1 far too much credit.

[JB0]

However, Spike and Sparkplug generally had decent development because they appeared in most episodes. Really, humans have always been prominent principal characters in Transformers.

Oh for....

IT'S A MATTER OF DEGREE.

Yes. We ALL KNOW humans were in the original cartoon. In every single episode, even.

We aren't complaining about the EXISTENCE of humans. Just that THERE AREN'T TRANSFORMERS IN MOST OF A MOVIE TITLED "THE TRANSFORMERS." And that the precious few 'bots that DO make an appearance have NO character development(or even appreciable script in most cases), because they pissed the entire movie away showing us that the teenager was angsty and the computer hacker would've been really really smart if she'd actually managed to impact the story at all.

The movie is long, slow, and boring. Largely because it has about three times as many characters as the story can handle.

You give G1 far too much credit.

I give it this much credit. It knows how to pace a story.

The stories may be mind-numbingly stupid, but they're far better paced.

Oh, and no one pissed on anyone in the cartoon.

In conclusion, I present a very brief review from a non-Transformers fan.

"I didn't even SEE the original series and I feel like this raped it a little."

[eriku]

Oh, and no one pissed on anyone in the cartoon.

When you saw that, did you almost expect Bumblebee to say, "Ex-qeeeze me!" in a Jar Jar voice? I know I did.

[Kurisama]

JBO - I agree with you 150% ( My percentage mass-shifted by 50% ) !!!

Edited October 25, 2007 by Kurisama

[Fit For Natalie]

I expect to be called a mindless stooge or a sheep soon.

Oh for....

IT'S A MATTER OF DEGREE.

Yes. We ALL KNOW humans were in the original cartoon. In every single episode, even.

We aren't complaining about the EXISTENCE of humans. Just that THERE AREN'T TRANSFORMERS IN MOST OF A MOVIE TITLED "THE TRANSFORMERS." And that the precious few 'bots that DO make an appearance have NO character development(or even appreciable script in most cases), because they pissed the entire movie away showing us that the teenager was angsty and the computer hacker would've been really really smart if she'd actually managed to impact the story at all.

This one one problem genre fans have compared to the rest of the population: You already know Transformers, you know who they are, where they came from and what their motivations are. Previous Transformers storylines were either targeted very specifically at kids (Buy the robot toy now!) or adult fans of the franchise already (Obscure character appearance most people can't remember). Meanwhile, the movie is targeted at as wide an audience as possible because, naturally, they want to make alot of money. As such, the story presents the humans (and to a lesser extent, Prime) as the main characters with the Transformers as supporting characters, presumably to better appeal to an audience of mostly non-fans.

And yes, there have been episodes and storylines of Transformers where Spike and Carly or Buster or Rad or Coby were the main characters while the Transformers. Nothing wrong with that, so long as it's decently presented, and I thought it was, particularly the scenes with Lennox's men and Sam.

However, I tend to agree Maggie and Glen were superfluous. Rachael Taylor was good to look at, though.

The movie is long, slow, and boring. Largely because it has about three times as many characters as the story can handle.

I give [G1] this much credit. It knows how to pace a story.

The stories may be mind-numbingly stupid, but they're far better paced.

And I disagree.

Oh, and no one pissed on anyone in the cartoon.

Rhinox totally humiliated Megatron by defeating all the Predacons by flatulence. That episode was awesome. It's funny. What's wrong with it being funny?

Transformers takes itself less seriously than fans do.

In conclusion, I present a very brief review from a non-Transformers fan.

"I didn't even SEE the original series and I feel like this raped it a little."

And I shall continue to mock anybody who feels personally insulted over a movie they didn't like.

[eriku]

Rachael Taylor was good to look at, though.

You're just biased, you mindless wallaby-loving sheep. Seriously though, I thought she was far more attractive in the film than Megan Fox, and had a much more attractive mind, too.

Regardless of my personal tastes for film and animation, my love of Transformers will always be based on the toys. I haven't yet seen a TF series or movie that I would place anywhere on a 'favorites' list, but the toys are another story. I personally don't care if Bay or whomever makes really good or really terrible movies, as long as the toys are appealing.

[Fit For Natalie]

Transformers has HEART AND MAGIC... whatever the hell that means!

[Twoducks]

When you take out fanboy physics out of the equation you see that we got more robots than there should have been out of a movie that is supposed to make money, not please a battyy minority:

- A giant transforming robot is a special effect. Special effects are expensive, especially if you want them to look good and believable in the real world.

- The TF budget was considered "low" (or not very high) for a big summer blockbuster... considering that most summer films only have humans the idea of having a lot more real looking giant transforming robots scenes for that sum is wishful thinking.

- Hollywood repeats formulas that make money. Until now there was no example of a money making movie that had giant robots. In Hollywood terms, they took a risk going along with the robots. All the teen humour was their safeguard.

- The bigger the name of the actors involved the bigger chunk they take away from the budget. TF had that guy, the other guy from that TV series and the good looking woman... thanks to that we got more robot time.

- Bay, the reason for war and famine in this world, is hired by the studio mainly because he shoots cheap. Less time repeating takes to get that special Stanislavski moment or whatever means that there was more money to spend on the robots.

In short, we got more robots and thanks to the movie appealing to a wider audience we will get more films done about giant robots. I find that POSITIVE.

Sure, we’ll get Elektra’s and Cat Woman’s like comic book based movies did but we can also now get the equivalent of a Sin City, Hellboy or 300 with big robots.

If someone feels “offended” due to the three human plotlines sandwiched between the robot action, then they should enjoy life watching how Megatron tried to steal energon every week or whatever instead of feeling pissed because someone “raped” a show created to sell toys for kids of the 80's.

[JB0]

I expect to be called a mindless stooge or a sheep soon.

This one one problem genre fans have compared to the rest of the population: You already know Transformers, you know who they are, where they came from and what their motivations are. Previous Transformers storylines were either targeted very specifically at kids (Buy the robot toy now!) or adult fans of the franchise already (Obscure character appearance most people can't remember). Meanwhile, the movie is targeted at as wide an audience as possible because, naturally, they want to make alot of money. As such, the story presents the humans (and to a lesser extent, Prime) as the main characters with the Transformers as supporting characters, presumably to better appeal to an audience of mostly non-fans.

Everyone I've heard has said the movie was too long and needed less people, more robot.

This includes non-fans.

It even includes my parents' generation.

It includes the movie critics, too. Even ones that admittedly went in thinking the movie would be steaming poo came out saying it would be good if it was shorter, and that it had too many characters.

Almost everyone there knew, in the most basic sense, that a movie called "The Transformers" was about cars and trucks and things that go turning into giant robots and beating the poo out of each other.

None of them needed a solid hour of teen angst and SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECT to make them warm up to the idea.

The ones that DIDN'T know came expecting a Hollywood blockbuster action film with lots of explosions sprinkled liberally throughout the film. They didn't need an hour of teen angst and SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECT to make them warm up to the idea.

Rhinox totally humiliated Megatron by defeating all the Predacons by flatulence. That episode was awesome. It's funny. What's wrong with it being funny?

A. I was talking about G1, not Beast Wars.

B. I said no one PISSED on anyone.

C. it was a sarcastic jab.

D. The fundamental problem with Bumblebee pissing on Secret Agent Man is it WASN'T funny.

Transformers takes itself less seriously than fans do.

I'm one of the people that thought it would be really hard to screw Transformers up, and that the franchise was right up Micheal Bay's alley.

Why he backed off from his USUAL spectacle of violence this time is anyone's guess.

...

Though I guess I should remember he did The Island in the future. That one was pretty badly paced with a yawn-inducing first half too.

- Hollywood repeats formulas that make money. Until now there was no example of a money making movie that had giant robots. In Hollywood terms, they took a risk going along with the robots. All the teen humour was their safeguard.

And believe me, I'm NOT a fan of Hollywood's attitude.

Especially when they mis-identify the formula.

Remember how after The Matrix, EVERY SINGLE MOVIE had excessive "bullet time" shots? And then after several bullet time movies flopped, they quit using the effect almost totally?

Or how about the fall of hand animation? Wher Hollywood decided Shrek and Toy Story were popular because they were CG. A bunch of bad CG movies alter, they've pretty much concluded people don't like cartoons.

- The bigger the name of the actors involved the bigger chunk they take away from the budget. TF had that guy, the other guy from that TV series and the good looking woman... thanks to that we got more robot time.

Then it's a good thing there weren't any big names, or we wouldn't have ANY robot.

- A giant transforming robot is a special effect. Special effects are expensive, especially if you want them to look good and believable in the real world.

...

- The TF budget was considered "low" (or not very high) for a big summer blockbuster... considering that most summer films only have humans the idea of having a lot more real looking giant transforming robots scenes for that sum is wishful thinking.

- Bay, the reason for war and famine in this world, is hired by the studio mainly because he shoots cheap. Less time repeating takes to get that special Stanislavski moment or whatever means that there was more money to spend on the robots.

I'd've rather they used a lesser special effects team than ILM, and spent the cash they saved on more robots and comprehensible action scenes.

Also: Bay may be known for shooting cheap, but he's also known for making big explosive spectacles. AKA what everyone expected, and what the critics have said shuld have been done.

In short, we got more robots and thanks to the movie appealing to a wider audience we will get more films done about giant robots. I find that POSITIVE.

Correction: We'll get more movies featuring giant robots as background props while teens angst over SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECTs, because that's the Transformers formula.

If someone feels “offended” due to the three human plotlines sandwiched between the robot action, then they should enjoy life watching how Megatron tried to steal energon every week or whatever instead of feeling pissed because someone “raped” a show created to sell toys for kids of the 80's.

IF the human plotlines were sandwiched between action scenes, I'd agree.

The problem is the action scenes are sandwiched between human plotlines. Entirely too many of them, with several scenes dragged out to painfully long.

The movie has no balance, and serious pacing issues.

[VF5SS]

There has to something wrong when a movie gets a 56% at Rotten Tomatoes. The old movie got a 42% so it's an improvement.

The thing that gets me is that the movie wanted to be really intense with the "THE GIANT ROBOTS ARE GOING TO KILL YOU" and then pulls the punches in weird ways. Like, one of Captain Chunk Beefsteak's men is impaled through the chest by Scorponok but its not really that horrific because he was just cannon fodder and there was no blood. And then some guy gets "hit" and they do the "you're gonna be ok!" thing but it's lifeless. Then we see Sam get backhanded by a giant robot on to the windshield of a car and he's fine. And then we get masturbation jokes a peeing robot. It's trying to be funny and serious and not really working either way. Never mind when Megatron bargains with Sam for the cube and then flicks a guy like a bug. The HARBINGER OF DEATH is very selective when it comes to killing people I guess.

[Twoducks]

And believe me, I'm NOT a fan of Hollywood's attitude.

Especially when they mis-identify the formula.

Remember how after The Matrix, EVERY SINGLE MOVIE had excessive "bullet time" shots? And then after several bullet time movies flopped, they quit using the effect almost totally?

Or how about the fall of hand animation? Wher Hollywood decided Shrek and Toy Story were popular because they were CG. A bunch of bad CG movies alter, they've pretty much concluded people don't like cartoons.

I agree with you here but... well, see Hollywood doesn't give a rats ass about what you or I think of their attitude because that doesn't make money for them. Would you invest 100 million dollars on something that has no guaranty of even returning that sum back? Better invest that in one of those CG cartoon movies that have made money before.

Sometimes a talented director or writer will land a project and make magic. The first X-man had a crappy plot and yet Brian Singer made a watchable film that sparked life back into super hero movies.

And, BTW, you get you fair share of bullet time in 300. Pretty fun movie that 300.

Then it's a good thing there weren't any big names, or we wouldn't have ANY robot.

And yet some projects need a big name to actually get made. Yes, we were lucky.

I'd've rather they used a lesser special effects team than ILM, and spent the cash they saved on more robots and comprehensible action scenes.

Also: Bay may be known for shooting cheap, but he's also known for making big explosive spectacles. AKA what everyone expected, and what the critics have said shuld have been done.

Or better yet, instead of cheap crappy CG , why not have actors wear robot costumes to get even more robot time!!!

Sorry, but ILM work in this movie is incredible. I prefer quality over a few extra scenes.

Correction: We'll get more movies featuring giant robots as background props while teens angst over SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECTs, because that's the Transformers formula.

Correction to that fanboy generalization: who cares?

Can you deny that there have been good/fun movies made out of comic books?

Live in Angerville if you want. Personally I don't care if they make 200 bad robot flicks if I get to see one that is good. I won't pay a dime or loose a minute watching the ones that don't interest me.

Come on over to Positiveville and enjoy stuff and forget about crap.

IF the human plotlines were sandwiched between action scenes, I'd agree.

The problem is the action scenes are sandwiched between human plotlines. Entirely too many of them, with several scenes dragged out to painfully long.

The movie has no balance, and serious pacing issues.

And yet a lot of people have had fun watching this movie (myself included). And it has made a ton of money because of so many people having fun. More money than the guys involved thought they would make which in turn has opened up the flood gates for a new Hollywood formula which has the potential of giving us some good new entertainment.

Nobody forces you to watch stuff you don't like and even if a franchise goes to movie hell, it can come back to life later on. Just look at Batman Begins and Superman Returns.

[David Hingtgen]

We'll get more movies featuring giant robots as background props while teens angst over SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECTs, because that's the Transformers formula.

Somewhere, someone just green-lighted the live-action Evangelion.

[JB0]

Live in Angerville if you want. Personally I don't care if they make 200 bad robot flicks if I get to see one that is good. I won't pay a dime or loose a minute watching the ones that don't interest me.

Come on over to Positiveville and enjoy stuff and forget about crap.

I'm not mad at the movie.

For all it's flaws, it WAS better than I expected.

Which admittedly doesn't say much, but... I enjoyed it, when I wasn't groaning at idiocy like the acoustic analysis of computer signals, or just wishing they'd hurry up and DO something.

I WAS disappointed at the end, and I really wish someone else was in charge for 2. But it wasn't a complete and total trainwreck. More like a fender-bender in a parking lot.

I enjoyed Stealth too, for what it's worth. I seem to recall that one carrying a VERY low average opinion here.

But people apologizing for the movie's shortcomings, and explaining how it HAD to be that way to draw a mainstream audience, when the mainstream audience complained about them too...

I view that as an insult to my intelligence.

[Fit For Natalie]

Everyone I've heard has said the movie was too long and needed less people, more robot.

This includes non-fans.

It even includes my parents' generation.

It includes the movie critics, too. Even ones that admittedly went in thinking the movie would be steaming poo came out saying it would be good if it was shorter, and that it had too many characters.

Almost everyone there knew, in the most basic sense, that a movie called "The Transformers" was about cars and trucks and things that go turning into giant robots and beating the poo out of each other.

None of them needed a solid hour of teen angst and SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECT to make them warm up to the idea.

The ones that DIDN'T know came expecting a Hollywood blockbuster action film with lots of explosions sprinkled liberally throughout the film. They didn't need an hour of teen angst and SEKRIT GUV'MENT PROJECT to make them warm up to the idea.

Yeah, and I disagree with them. So does my dog. And my cat. And the guy who drives the home ice cream truck around my neighbourhood, and my local member of parliament who's running for re-election and needs my vote and will agree with whatever I say.

HA! Not only you can drag up random people who support your point of view!

A. I was talking about G1, not Beast Wars.

B. I said no one PISSED on anyone.

C. it was a sarcastic jab.

D. The fundamental problem with Bumblebee pissing on Secret Agent Man is it WASN'T funny.

1. It doesn't matter which continuity it is, as I was using it as an example of humour in Transformers being extremely broad.

B. Pissing and farting are both similarly lowbrow and funny depending on who's doing it to who.

Z. (FFN couldn't think of anything funny to say here) Gazebo.

10. And other people thought it was funny!

I'm one of the people that thought it would be really hard to screw Transformers up, and that the franchise was right up Micheal Bay's alley.

Why he backed off from his USUAL spectacle of violence this time is anyone's guess.

...

Though I guess I should remember he did The Island in the future. That one was pretty badly paced with a yawn-inducing first half too.

Probably because it's a movie based upon a franchise that overwhelmingly caters to children and families, and Bay stated from the outset that he wanted to do a 'family movie'. No doubt Steven Spielberg and Hasbro had such an influence too, no matter what Bay boasts.

Violence generally isn't Transformers' forte when it comes to moving-picture media, I'm observed.

Oddly, The Island is one of his better movies in terms of critical acclaim, even though its largely ripped off from another movie.

Or how about the fall of hand animation? Wher Hollywood decided Shrek and Toy Story were popular because they were CG. A bunch of bad CG movies alter, they've pretty much concluded people don't like cartoons.

Didn't Disney's last cel-animated movie bomb? Granted it wasn't terribly good...

Then it's a good thing there weren't any big names, or we wouldn't have ANY robot.

I'd've rather they used a lesser special effects team than ILM, and spent the cash they saved on more robots and comprehensible action scenes.

Also: Bay may be known for shooting cheap, but he's also known for making big explosive spectacles. AKA what everyone expected, and what the critics have said shuld have been done.

Then we would have recieved poorer quality CGI, or late delivery of their work. Essentially, only ILM had the experience and resources to tackle such a project.

[JB0]

Violence generally isn't Transformers' forte when it comes to moving-picture media, I'm observed.

Wasn't the LAST Transformers motion picture infamous for it's excessive violence?

Didn't Disney's last cel-animated movie bomb? Granted it wasn't terribly good...

That's the Hollywood logic.

"Well, this bad conventional cartoon bombed, and this pretty kick-ass CG one did pretty good.... obviously it's the medium's fault, since consumers are too stupid to tell a good movie from a bad one."

Then we would have recieved poorer quality CGI, or late delivery of their work. Essentially, only ILM had the experience and resources to tackle such a project.

I'm aware there's a tradeoff.

I would've preferred more robots done to a lower quality standard.

And if it forced them to simplify the designs, well, I guess I'd've just had to live with it...

[promethuem5]

Wasn't the LAST Transformers motion picture infamous for it's excessive violence?

Not excessive so much as graphic compared to the show... but in reality, the original movie has a pacing similar to DYRL with stupendous action at the beginning, lots of plot with only a little action for the middle, and a climax battle at the end... and yet I still prefer the TF movie over DYRL.

[M'Kyuun]

Where did you get that G1 was targeted at 10-14 year olds? Which age group do you think they were selling the toys to? By comparison, Beast Wars had a more mature tone and heavier issues, with a considerable dash of slapstick and lowbrow 'adolescent humour. One hallmark of Transformers cartoons (except for Beast Machines) is to never take itself too seriously.

You give G1 far too much credit.

I don't give all G1 credit. In fact, after the first season, I found it unwatchable, as the plots, dialog, and interactions among the characters became simpler to appeal to younger audiences. However, the bulk of the original 16 episodes from the first season were arguably more mature. The writing was more appreaciable to a 10-14 yr age group, while I'm sure Hasbro was targeting the 5yr and up demographic to peddle toys. I was thirteen, and I still remember its impression when compared to other shows airing at the time. I agree that Beast Wars was more mature and pretty well written, Rhinox's farting ep notwithstanding . I don't mind a little lowbrow humor. Hell, I'm a military acft maintainer...we define crudeness. However, I think Bay and his writers were looking for ways to appeal to the teenage audience, and, IMHO, they handled it clumsily. I was hoping for more maturity, and from the serious tone implied by the trailers, I had hopes of a darker, edgier movie. I committed the sin of having expectations, and thus the movie was disappointing. Like many here, however, the toys have captured my interest far more than the various animations. This movie was a good thing in terms of impacting the sophistication and look of the toys, as well as showcasing ILM's incredible talents. It's not the best Transformers media out there, but it is entertaining. I'll know what to expect next time around. On that note, I'm curious how the new animated show is going to be. Personally, I'd love to see a Transformers show written like JLA and the recent Superman/Doomsday movie, produced by the WB. Good stuff.

[Fit For Natalie]

Wasn't the LAST Transformers motion picture infamous for it's excessive violence?

Compared to the tv show, yes, but that film didn't go down very well with audiences. Granted, it was due to the fact they killed off Prime and co, but as it is, the 2007 TF movie is rather intense for the traditional Transformers target audience already.

That's the Hollywood logic.

"Well, this bad conventional cartoon bombed, and this pretty kick-ass CG one did pretty good.... obviously it's the medium's fault, since consumers are too stupid to tell a good movie from a bad one."

In a way, it is the medium's fault but also the audiences' fault. Today's audience wants to be bedazzled by CGI while cel-animation is seen as 'old fashioned'. The problem CG movies have now is bad storylines choked with random stars who were loitering around the studio lot at the time.

I don't give all G1 credit. In fact, after the first season, I found it unwatchable, as the plots, dialog, and interactions among the characters became simpler to appeal to younger audiences. However, the bulk of the original 16 episodes from the first season were arguably more mature. The writing was more appreaciable to a 10-14 yr age group, while I'm sure Hasbro was targeting the 5yr and up demographic to peddle toys. I was thirteen, and I still remember its impression when compared to other shows airing at the time. I agree that Beast Wars was more mature and pretty well written, Rhinox's farting ep notwithstanding . I don't mind a little lowbrow humor. Hell, I'm a military acft maintainer...we define crudeness. However, I think Bay and his writers were looking for ways to appeal to the teenage audience, and, IMHO, they handled it clumsily. I was hoping for more maturity, and from the serious tone implied by the trailers, I had hopes of a darker, edgier movie. I committed the sin of having expectations, and thus the movie was disappointing. Like many here, however, the toys have captured my interest far more than the various animations. This movie was a good thing in terms of impacting the sophistication and look of the toys, as well as showcasing ILM's incredible talents. It's not the best Transformers media out there, but it is entertaining. I'll know what to expect next time around. On that note, I'm curious how the new animated show is going to be. Personally, I'd love to see a Transformers show written like JLA and the recent Superman/Doomsday movie, produced by the WB. Good stuff.

Simon Furman tends to disagree with you - he prefers the second season because they were building backstory, their own mythos (which they generally left alone in season 1) and strong character stories. Season 2 was why he was so adverse to the G1 cartoon when he was writing the UK Marvel comics, partly because he was concerned that he wasn't presenting the characters 'as intended'.

[Guest sh002]

here are some awesome tf customs. mp elita-1, mp slag, and classics menasor. wish they were released.

[konimon]

here are some awesome tf customs. mp elita-1, mp slag, and classics menasor. wish they were released.

Classics combiners would surely be great.

[VF5SS]

Simon Furman tends to disagree with you - he prefers the second season because they were building backstory, their own mythos (which they generally left alone in season 1) and strong character stories. Season 2 was why he was so adverse to the G1 cartoon when he was writing the UK Marvel comics, partly because he was concerned that he wasn't presenting the characters 'as intended'.

Simon Furman is also the guy who thinks Robot God, Robot Devil, and Robot Jesus is a great idea for a comic about toys.

[Alpha OTS]

here are some awesome tf customs. mp elita-1, mp slag, and classics menasor. wish they were released.

For some reason, I'm getting a Gobot Puzzler vibe from that custom Menasor. That's not a bad thing.

[JB0]

Compared to the tv show, yes, but that film didn't go down very well with audiences. Granted, it was due to the fact they killed off Prime and co...

They also forgot to advertise it, so no one knew it existed until it left theaters.

Which is probably for the best.

In a way, it is the medium's fault but also the audiences' fault. Today's audience wants to be bedazzled by CGI while cel-animation is seen as 'old fashioned'. The problem CG movies have now is bad storylines choked with random stars who were loitering around the studio lot at the time.

Which was the same problem the traditional animation had.

The audiences weren't running from cel animation. They were running from bad cartoons.

Lilo and Stitch, for example, did GREAT. Despite being right smack in the middle of the exodus.

[UN Spacy]

Heads up folks.

Someone at TFW has found US Masterpiece Starscream for $48.

[cube]

^awesome! that'll make it a lot easier to justify buying 2 of these guys.