Uxi Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 The difference between 720p and 1080p isn't as noticeable as you might think, is it? All depends on the size of your screen. By 60" or so, it should be noticible from a decent range (6-8 feet or so), but if you just came up on it, you woudln't be able to tell as much as if you did an A/B right there.
David Hingtgen Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Part of it is "raw size of the pixel itself" at this point. The PC monitor you're viewing on probably has a FAR greater pixels-per-inch count than even the best HDTV. Anyone here viewing the comparison pic using an HDTV as a monitor, instead of a "real PC monitor"?
Uxi Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) My 24" Dell does 1920 x 1200. I sit maybe 2-3 feet from it. My 60" SXRD does 1920 x 1080. I sit 8-10 feet from it. Edited January 31, 2008 by Uxi
mikeszekely Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Part of it is "raw size of the pixel itself" at this point. The PC monitor you're viewing on probably has a FAR greater pixels-per-inch count than even the best HDTV. Anyone here viewing the comparison pic using an HDTV as a monitor, instead of a "real PC monitor"? Not yet, but I can later. All depends on the size of your screen. By 60" or so, it should be noticible from a decent range (6-8 feet or so), but if you just came up on it, you woudln't be able to tell as much as if you did an A/B right there. 52", 1080i.
CoryHolmes Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 The difference between 720p and 1080p isn't as noticeable as you might think, is it? Part of it is "raw size of the pixel itself" at this point. The PC monitor you're viewing on probably has a FAR greater pixels-per-inch count than even the best HDTV. Anyone here viewing the comparison pic using an HDTV as a monitor, instead of a "real PC monitor"? I do. 46" XBR2 at 1080i (1920x1080) and I can see a large difference between all the settings. Especially in the background/smallish objects in that shot (like Will Smith's face. In 720p he's kinda recognizable. At 1080p he's in great contrast and you can make out the depth of his brow, his eyes, etc.). Admitadly the difference isn't as large as, say, between 480 and 720, but it is still there.
JsARCLIGHT Posted January 31, 2008 Author Posted January 31, 2008 As someone who works with images and video all day my eye is programmed to detect all the little imperfections and artifacts in those images. Like Cory, I can see distinct differences between the resolutions. The trick is not to absorb the whole image but to look at the nuance, the tiny things. It's the most noticeable in edges and points of delineation between color fields. The difference is subtle but it's those tiny subtle differences when playing that give the image just enough added boost. BUT it is 100% true that your average man on the street would not see a difference. But IMHO crazy high def 1080p picture quality is an "enthusiast" thing anyway. Just as your average joe would not appreciate the difference between a painting by an original artist and a copy, I don't expect everyone to just fawn over a slightly improved picture. I've become so "bad" about HD signals lately that I almost can't watch SD anymore on my home system. Last night I was watching Comedy Central in SD and the picture was just... so... bad. I kept purposefully flipping to CNN HD just to remind myself what my TV was capable of showing. As such I'm finding myself more and more nitpicky of HD signals as well. I've come to learn how to spot "upscale" in broadcast HD programs and how to spot all the "nasties" as I call them in BD and HD DVD discs. In some transfers the grain and edge enhancement are so noticeable that it wrecks a movie for me... then in other movies the picture is so pristine that the occasional artifact or imperfection jumps out like a flare going off.
bandit29 Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 ya I'm starting to get that way too. HD is losing its "wow" factor and stuff in SD is just crap. Edge enhancement doesn't bother me yet...yet I have a 1080p 46" Samsung LCD .
David Hingtgen Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 I hate edge enhancement NOW with DVD on a CRT. Nearly every movie has it done when transferred to DVD, some just do it more than others.
VT 1010 Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 I hate Edge Enhancement! It is bad enough watching SD with Edge Enhancement, but HD is worse. There's just no reason for it. Why in the hell would anybody add EE to high definition (or even SD) material? On some SD stations, the EE is so bad, even the halos have halos (I'm completely serious). I can't even watch The Matrix on HD DVD anymore. The M+ DVDs were riddled with it too. At times, I think 1996 remastered Aliens Laserdisc looks better than the DVDs, since it has so little EE (the sound quality is better as well. It's probably one of the most impressive LDs I've seen, PQ/AQ wise). Can you believe they added EE to the HD versions of 2001? It's 2001; It doesn't need it! I should stop now, I'm starting to go into a mindless rant... Once you know what to look for, the flaws in the picture become worse. EE, interlacing artifacts, DNR, compression artifacts, banding, 2-3 jitter, grayscale, color accuracy, etc. When you are more familiar with them, bad transfers and poorly adjusted displays can be difficult to watch. Although, I still can't seem to notice the rainbow effect on my DLP sets.
Roy Focker Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Okay I'll whine about watch TV as well. Okay I have SD channels and HD channels. Some are even the same networks. If I were to watch Fox on HD my screen shrinks. Looks all crisps and stuff but isn't filling up the screen. If I expand it looks like crap. Watch a in SD I watch it in full screen and looks fair. This for both HD and non HD shows. HD ones look slightly better. I also doubt how HD these cable channels are. I can watch HD movies but I know my Blu-ray or even DVD often look better.
Ladic Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 is it just me or does SD channels look 10x worse on an LCD/Plasma rather than an old crt?
JsARCLIGHT Posted February 1, 2008 Author Posted February 1, 2008 You do have to figure that anything "broadcast", be it over the air, through a cable or transmitted from a satellite, is going to have some level of degradation at several stages in it's "life". It will never be as clear as a local source (Blu Ray / HD DVD). Plus it also depends on the media you are watching. A lot of "new" shows are shot in HD these days but a lot of other stuff isn't, and you can pretty much be assured that any rerun older than a few years is also SD. Another thing to watch for is that many "HD" channels are only upscaling their standard SD feed... two channels that are notorious for this are Animal Planet HD and Cartoon Network's HD channel. It's basically their regular channel upconverted and stretched to be widescreen (and in the case of Animal Planet at times it is zoomed and cropped). Some of their bumps are true HD but a lot of stuff is just SD scaled up. It's easy to see on some shows because their bug, the little logo in the bottom corner, is in HD but the program is all fuzzy and soft indicating it is an upscaled SD. Another thing that pisses me off about HD channels is that they zoom their feature movies. For example, right now I'm watching Alien Resurrection on Universal HD... and the movie is zoomed to 1.85:1. This is a 2.35:1 movie yet they zoom in on it to fit the screen... why? Oh and get this irony, the Universal HD channel just ran a 2 minute long Blu Ray spot. Ouch. Edit: And did anyone see that Bandai is releasing Yukikaze on Blu Ray in the spring? Sure it's going to be another $80 release but it might be as close as we get to Macross in HD anytime soon in the states.
VT 1010 Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 is it just me or does SD channels look 10x worse on an LCD/Plasma rather than an old crt? LCD and Plasma (as well as DLP and LCoS), are fixed pixel displays. They have a fixed resolution. In order to display the video properly, they have to scale the image (in SD's case, it needs to upscale). This can often cause the image to look worse. CRTs, on the other hand, don't have really have fixed resolution. They can often display the SD signal without scaling. For SD material, CRTs do the best job. Sometimes SD and HD may need separate calibrations too. There's also the fact that many new HDTVs have some "features" that are "enhancing" the picture (i.e. screwing with it), that needs to be turned off. Another thing that pisses me off about HD channels is that they zoom their feature movies. For example, right now I'm watching Alien Resurrection on Universal HD... and the movie is zoomed to 1.85:1. This is a 2.35:1 movie yet they zoom in on it to fit the screen... why? The picture quality was disappointing anyway. It didn't look much better than the DVD and the DVD looks awful on my display. At least HDNet Movies will normally broadcast movies in their native aspect ratio. It's still hard to watch HD movies via cable though. The low bitrates cause lots of compression artifacts. Not to mention some movies have old/poor masters with Edge Enhancement. Then you have jaggies because of interlacing. And did anyone see that Bandai is releasing Yukikaze on Blu Ray in the spring? Sure it's going to be another $80 release but it might be as close as we get to Macross in HD anytime soon in the states. It's not really HD. I have heard it's just going to have the episodes upscaled to 1080i in 4:3. I'm just glad we're in the same Blu-ray region as Japan. Should they decide to implement region coding (which is currently optional), it won't be such a pain for us in the US to watch Macross in HD.
Gaijin Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Okay I'll whine about watch TV as well. Okay I have SD channels and HD channels. Some are even the same networks. If I were to watch Fox on HD my screen shrinks. Looks all crisps and stuff but isn't filling up the screen. If I expand it looks like crap. Watch a in SD I watch it in full screen and looks fair. This for both HD and non HD shows. HD ones look slightly better. I also doubt how HD these cable channels are. I can watch HD movies but I know my Blu-ray or even DVD often look better. how is your cable box hooked up to the tv? What cable company and type of box?
JsARCLIGHT Posted February 1, 2008 Author Posted February 1, 2008 It's not really HD. I have heard it's just going to have the episodes upscaled to 1080i in 4:3. I'm just glad we're in the same Blu-ray region as Japan. Should they decide to implement region coding (which is currently optional), it won't be such a pain for us in the US to watch Macross in HD. Well then, looks like Bandai's HD anime will continue to go unpurchased by me. Upscaled, 4:3 and an $80 price tag? Nooooooo thanks.
Roy Focker Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Not through a hdmi cable but that one with the dozen plus cables. Yeah HD movies through cable aren't that very HD. I think most of the stuff out there is just SD scaled up. One type of programming that tends to come in good are sports.
JsARCLIGHT Posted February 1, 2008 Author Posted February 1, 2008 Sports and the news. Mostly because they are first source capture using good cameras and they have little processing done to them. When my friends ask for an HD demo of my stuff using my dish my two "go to" channels are CNN HD and ESPN HD. They almost always have a high quality signal with a very good picture. Edit: I guess this is on topic for this thread, but how does everyone here get their "non local source" HD? I have DirecTV satellite with the HD DVR. I live way outside town in a new development and they don't have cable TV cable running out here yet. I actually prefer the DirecTV service to my old cable service, the HD channel lineup is ten times larger and the overall picture and sound quality are far superior.
Roy Focker Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I get it through cable. It was either them or Dish service. At the time it was the best deal. Fios is an option now. Ever notice how hard it is to find how much every companies charges for service after the special trial offer ends? I know a girl who works for my cable company's video trouble shooting department. Was former coworker and is still in training. So I can't pick her brain completely yet.
bandit29 Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 Some Warner Bros Blu-ray news 08Q2 * Dirty Harry: Ultimate Collector's Edition Box Set (Dirty Harry, Magnum Force, The Enforcer, Sudden Impact, Dead Pool, and Clint Eastwood: Out of the Shadows) 08Q3 * Batman Anthology * Batman Begins: Limited Collector's Edition Box Set * The Dark Night http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=933
danth Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 Just wanted to share in the hatred of edge enhancement. It's the f*cking devil. A smooth, pretty, slightly blurry line is far better than a F*CKING STAIRCASE. EE poves that most people don't know how to leave things alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Roy Focker Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 Got a $100 gift card in the mail for buying my new TV at Best buy.
CoryHolmes Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 Can anyone post some pictures of something with Edge Enhancement and something without it? I'm still such a plebe regarding high-def A/V.
eugimon Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 Can anyone post some pictures of something with Edge Enhancement and something without it? I'm still such a plebe regarding high-def A/V. knowledge is a double edged sword, if you don't know what it is, don't find out because once you learn to spot em and the other myraid visual flaws in digital media, you'll never stop spotting them.
CoryHolmes Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 knowledge is a double edged sword, if you don't know what it is, don't find out because once you learn to spot em and the other myraid visual flaws in digital media, you'll never stop spotting them. True, but I'm a glutton for punishment. I work in a factory that's come thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to breaking bones in my ever-so-precious body. Fractured? Yes. Electrocuted? Yes. Arterial cuts? Yes. But no broken bones yet
eugimon Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 True, but I'm a glutton for punishment. I work in a factory that's come thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to breaking bones in my ever-so-precious body. Fractured? Yes. Electrocuted? Yes. Arterial cuts? Yes. But no broken bones yet I can honestly say the worst injury I've had on job is a .5 inch aluminum splinter in my finger.
David Hingtgen Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 X360 HD-DVD add-on dropped to $129.99. Apparently Amazon was selling it for $79.99 this morning until they sold out.
danth Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 knowledge is a double edged sword, if you don't know what it is, don't find out because once you learn to spot em and the other myraid visual flaws in digital media, you'll never stop spotting them. EE bothered me way before I had any idea what it was. I just thought it was compression artifacing. I had no idea it was done on purpose! Anyone ever seen the old Black Magic M-66 DVD? I don't if it's intentional EE, but man, I've never seen lines look more jagged. Actually, I'm not even sure if what I'm complaining about -- smooth lines looking jagged -- is typically caused by EE.
eugimon Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 X360 HD-DVD add-on dropped to $129.99. Apparently Amazon was selling it for $79.99 this morning until they sold out. yeah, that sale was aroujnd 5am though.. I was awake for it, but I already own it. I got mine with the bourne identity trilogy for 130, so I don't feel too bad
CoryHolmes Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 I can honestly say the worst injury I've had on job is a .5 inch aluminum splinter in my finger. I hate you
myk Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 X360 HD-DVD add-on dropped to $129.99. Apparently Amazon was selling it for $79.99 this morning until they sold out. I'm reminded of the time I picked up a 32X for next to nothing-I was buying a near dead periphal anyway...
marimba Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 OK, I've purchased all my other crap, so now it's time to get the new higher quality monitor...I've been to several local stores, but keep being drawn to the same set where ever I see it. It's the Samsung LNT4671F. I've read some good things and read some bad things in various searches so far. Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge with this particular TV?
bandit29 Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Some more WB Blu-ray titles coming this year, V for Vendetta, Clash of the Titans and the Matrix Trilogy(I won't be buying that awful mess). http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=937
eugimon Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 oooh, michael mann is overseeing the bd transfer of heat? Nice... Anyone know what's going to be on the boxed edition of Batman Begins?
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