High Definition Media & Technology Thread

[eugimon]

I've had several people tell me that the PS3 will not output anything above 5.1 through the Linear PCM setting and my receiver would not show anything but 5.1 at that setting. Switch it to Bitstream and blip it goes 7.1.

Edit: plus that "workaround" for the PS3 is a ghetto hotwire way of doing things. It may work but you still have to admit it was a design oversight.

I thought this was confirmed by a sony rep?

[Uxi]

I've had several people tell me that the PS3 will not output anything above 5.1 through the Linear PCM setting and my receiver would not show anything but 5.1 at that setting. Switch it to Bitstream and blip it goes 7.1.

Edit: plus that "workaround" for the PS3 is a ghetto hotwire way of doing things. It may work but you still have to admit it was a design oversight.

I'm really quite baffled. I had 6.1/7.1 available from auto-detection since I got it in late December 06. I was bitstream then and 6.1 at first since my old HTiB AVR didn't have HDMI (optical, 5.1 analogs, and RCA stereo, of course)... Then once I got the Denon, it's been 7.1 (through Polk RM's) ever since.... Never had to do any work arounds or anything.

I can take some screen shots of my setup screen maybe?

Ultimate AV listed in their December 2006 review (pg4) that PS3 had "Superior audio decoding capabilities with 7.1-channel Dolby TrueHD."

http://ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1206ps3blu/index.html

Edited December 27, 2007 by Uxi

[David Hingtgen]

That review also says the PS3 won't upscale standard DVD's at all, which goes against everything I've read. It also says it won't downscale 1080p to 720p.

[Uxi]

That review was done way before the PS3 firmware was updated to allow upscaling (and 24p). And it already did 7.1 and TrueHD back then (both at launch AFAIK).

[marimba]

Cool, all of this is great information. I had no idea that there was an IR adapter for use with the PS3. Although I am not a gamer, my kid would be happy to have a PS3 at home to play with when he is not playing x-box 360. So, I could get a PS3, Nyko IR plug-in, and Onkyo 605...and have access to all of the features I want plus some other added benefits!

BTW, I wasn't trying to knock the Harmony remotes in any way in my earlier post. I have only used one for like 5 seconds. I was trying to convey they they were easily programed, because my son (who is 14) can easily manipulate/program one with no experience.

Edited December 27, 2007 by marimba

[mikeszekely]

Cool, all of this is great information. I had no idea that there was an IR adapter for use with the PS3. Although I am not a gamer, my kid would be happy to have a PS3 at home to play with when he is not playing x-box 360. So, I could get a PS3, Nyko IR plug-in, and Onkyo 605...and have access to all of the features I want plus some other added benefits!

BTW, I wasn't trying to knock the Harmony remotes in any way in my earlier post. I have only used one for like 5 seconds. I was trying to convey they they were easily programed, because my son (who is 14) can easily manipulate/program one with no experience.

Never said you were. I was just pointing out that you can fine tune a Harmony and it'll learn IR commands for unsupported devices.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Prontos OR the Harmony 1000, as I'm not a fan of remotes that look like TV Guides. I also don't like how nearly all of the functions of the Harmony 1000 are stuck on the touch screen. Truthfully, I'm not even a fan of the peanut-shaped Harmonies. I've been using the one for the 360 since it came out, and although it's really hard to find now, what I really want is the 720.

[Uxi]

You should get one. There are pretty good deals out there right on the 720. I also don't like the... bulk... of the peanut shaped remotes. I sometimes with the transport controls were higher on the 720 and that I could dim the blazing bright screen but the rest of the remote is perfect. Charter's CableCARD went south and after 4 tries with techs who obviously don't know what they're doing with them, they sent me out an STB to tide me over in the meantime. A quick trip to the Harmony DB and I"m up and rolling like nothing happened. Well except for not having my Twin View, TV set favorites, etc but that's not Harmony's fault.

[mikeszekely]

You should get one. There are pretty good deals out there right on the 720. I also don't like the... bulk... of the peanut shaped remotes. I sometimes with the transport controls were higher on the 720 and that I could dim the blazing bright screen but the rest of the remote is perfect. Charter's CableCARD went south and after 4 tries with techs who obviously don't know what they're doing with them, they sent me out an STB to tide me over in the meantime. A quick trip to the Harmony DB and I"m up and rolling like nothing happened. Well except for not having my Twin View, TV set favorites, etc but that's not Harmony's fault.

Cheapest I've seen is $150 at Wal-Mart, but they don't have any at my local Wal-Mart. For some reason, I'm loathe to order one online from them.

[eugimon]

I don't mind the shape of the peanut series at all, but I do hate that the buttons on the 880 are all run together, not as easy to navigate by touch on that one.

I find the PDA style remotes to be rather obnoxious.... I guess it fits in if you have an actual home theater room but when I see one in a living room controling 3 devices, I just snicker. quietly, and to myself but I still snicker.

[Ishimaru]

Newegg is having a sale on some 32s and on other pieces of hardware Deals are not that bad actually.

http://promotions.newegg.com/NEPro/Ultimat...ndex.html#page4

Edited December 29, 2007 by Ishimaru

[VT 1010]

There appears to be some misconceptions about the PS3's audio capabilities.

The PS3 CANNOT currently pass "HD audio" via bitstream through HDMI. The only way to get HD audio is to have the PS3 internally decode TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus, then send the audio to the receiver as LPCM. DTS HD Master Audio and DTS HD High Resolution Audio cannot currently be decoded internally. You will instead get the lossy 1.5mb DTS core signal (of course this is better than what you get on most DVDs anyway). Supposedly, Sony is planning to release an update to allow proper internal decoding of the DTS HD formats soon.

As for 7.1, the PS3 can transmit an LPCM signal in 7.1. I'm not sure about LPCM that comes from compressed HD audio though. Luckily, there aren't very many discs out there with a compressed 7.1 track.

Also, you DO NOT need HDMI 1.3a to transmit multi-channel LPCM. HDMI 1.0 fully supports LPCM. Don't worry, there is no loss in quality when converting HD audio to LPCM. There is NO difference. TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio compress the audio tracks Losslessly (Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD High Resolution Audio are both lossy). It is just like a .zip or .rar file. Some sounds are lost when the decoding is done in the reciever anyway (like menu effects and stuff), so internal decoding can have it's advantages.

That review also says the PS3 won't upscale standard DVD's at all, which goes against everything I've read. It also says it won't downscale 1080p to 720p.

You are correct. As mentioned earlier, the PS3 does upscale DVDs. It does a pretty good job too, IMHO. It should downscale Blu-ray movies as well.

[JsARCLIGHT]

All I know is that my receiver simply will not engage 7.1 mode using LinearPCM from my PS3. No matter what setting it (the receiver) is on or what audio option is selected on the Blu Ray, my receiver will only play back 5.1 when LinearPCM is on. As soon as I switch to Bitstream the 7.1 option comes on on the receiver.

So either there is something wrong with my receiver, something wrong with my PS3 or something wrong with what everyone keeps saying. All I know is my PS3 is set to Bitstream, it is outputting through 1.3a HDMI to my receiver and my receiver says it is playing back 7.1 sound. I should also mention that switching to LinearPCM gives my receiver a tinny, hollow sound compared to using Bitstream. No receiver settings are changed... the only thing changed is changing the setting from LPCM to Bitstream on the PS3.

Edit: Also I'm not trying to say what is "right" and what isn't, I'm just saying that in my particular setup this is how it seems to work. I have nothing but problems using LinearPCM out of my PS3. People tell me up and down that my receiver is supposed to work one way and the PS3 is supposed to work another but the way I have the two configured with each other seems to work just fine and gives me the playback quality that I like.

[VT 1010]

It could be how the PS3 decodes the compressed HD audio tracks. It could be how your receiver handles the signal. I'm not sure. I may have to do some more research. Have you tried a 7.1 LPCM track?

Either way, it is a fact: The PS3 cannot currently Bitstream the HD audio tracks. If you select bitstream for HDMI, you will receive the 640kb Dolby Digital core for TrueHD; a transcoded DD stream from DD+; and the 1.5mb DTS core for DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD HRA. The converted LPCM tracks should sound identical to the original losslessly compressed tracks. There shouldn't be much of a difference for the lossy tracks either. Any real difference would be the conversion of 6.1/7.1 tracks to 5.1.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I've been fiddling with this thing all morning... again... trying to see what is "wrong" with my setup.

A lack of a 7.1 source at the moment is hampering my efforts. Last time I had to rent that horrible Resistence game to test with and the tests didn't go so well.

I think I may have found the "issue". The issue is that when the PS3 does the decoding, my receiver will only accept that info and it will in effect "block out" it's own ability to tweak and bend the sound. What seems to be happening is that every single Blu Ray disc I have, even the ones with True HD soundtracks, are all 5.1 only. When the PS3 decodes the data and sends it using LinearPCM it only sends 5.1 data, my Oink only receives 5.1 data and seems to "lock" itself into 5.1 mode. It also seems to "lock" out some of it's audio tweaking tools. BUT when I use Bitstream, the data it receives it decodes itself and all of a sudden all these tools and tweaks open up to me. The receiver itself cut mixes the 5.1 info into 7.1 (or at least that is what I'm guessing it is doing) as the 7.1 option becomes available along with all the "tweak" sound field settings.

After fooling with it it's clear to me that the strength of my receiver seems to be in it's ability to tweak sound field settings. When it is playing back the "true" TrueHD 5.1 track over LinearPCM, the track just has this empty... almost hollow feel to it. But when I go Bitstream, the receiver can goose itself and seemingly remix the data into 7.1 as well as do it's own little sound field dance on it which noticeably boosts the lows and fills out the sound better.

My test this morning was using The Fifth Element (Remastered) on Blu Ray set inside the PS3 to use it's TrueHD track. From what I'm seeing I am probably not getting the actual TrueHD soundtrack through the receiver, but what I am getting to my ear sounds superior.

[Uxi]

It's gotta be a setting issue. The 805 is a good receiver (Level 6 by the standards of the AVS Thread I linked) that can do DSP on 8ch LPCM. I was glancing through the 805 owner's thread on AVS and didn't really find anything (many of them are in a circle jerk over bitstreamed high res audio, which can sound no better than LPCM since the encoded bitstream is nothing more analogous than a zip or rar)... It sounds like a settings issue to me.

When you go to Audio output on the PS3, don't do automatic... if you do manual, uncheck everything except 7.1 LPCM, set your PS3 to output LPCM and see what you get on your AVR. It should be something to the effect of "MultiCH 7.1"

If you don't want to test with Resistance (which is a fine game but that's neither here nor there), you could try the Blu-ray of Crank or Descent (those are actually 6.1, but the PS3 matrixes them to 7.1 which is what your AVR should see). There are a few Lionsgate movies that do have native 7.1 but the specific titles escape me right now. Waiting is one IIRC. There is also the Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, which is also native discrete 7.1 LPCM.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Uxi

[Nied]

What's your guy's opinion of this. I'm thinking of blowing some of my Christmas bonus on something and this looks mighty attractive, I'm not interested in buying a PS3 just to get a Blu-Ray player or a 360 for an HD-DVD player (I'm quite happy with my PC and Wii for gaming) so this looks rather attractive, especially since the DVD upscaling is apparently quite good.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Nied

[JsARCLIGHT]

Personally I'd hold off until it's released and the first consumer reviews start coming in before pre-ordering it. Then again I'm paranoid with buying consumer electronics until they "prove themselves" in the market.

[Nied]

Personally I'd hold off until it's released and the first consumer reviews start coming in before pre-ordering it. Then again I'm paranoid with buying consumer electronics until they "prove themselves" in the market.

According to CNET it's out now with positive reviews, and the pre-release reviews have been quite positive as well.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I myself would still wait. Wait until a good 3 to 6 months after release and see if the positive reviews stay positive. It's best to let other people find all the pitfalls and discuss them before you jump in. I've seen a lot of glowing reviews for Samsung stuff lately that turned into sour notes requiring firmware patches. Heck, their last big LCD line are hailed as the champs of the market but they suffer from HDMI issues that only now are finally getting fixed in the on shelf units.

Also with the holiday price war still being studied for all we know second gen player prices may plummet in the next few months. Right now really is a bad time to be shopping HD players. Until the market "knows" who "won" Christmas we may see first quarter power plays. January to March is always a terrible time to shop product.

[Uxi]

None of the dual format players out yet look worth it. They're more expensive than two good separate players (PS3 and A30, for example or Panasonic BD30 and A3, as well). I don't believe the new Samsung is Blu-ray profile 1.1 compliant, either, if that sort of thing matters to you (doesn't to me, even if the PS3 is).

[Nied]

It meets BR 1.1 specs. What really had me excited though is the Reon video processor, which apparently does an excellent job up-converting conventional DVDs. Considering the fact that a PS3+A30+HDMI switch (my current set only has one HDMI port) cost nearly as much as the BD5000, and I don't get the stellar processor out of that package (and a lot of headache trying to wedge all that into my current Home theater stack), I thought the extra $50 might make it worth it. I'm getting tired of waiting for someone to "win" the format war and I'd rather support solutions like this since IMHO it's what's going to win the war for consumers (after all dual format drives finally ended the writable DVD war).

[JsARCLIGHT]

WEll I can't speak for that new upscaler but the one in the PS3 is fried gold. It does a wonderful job.

Also not to sound like a broken record but the PS3 also offers something that appealed to me: wifi. It's connected to my network which means any internet enabled stuff on the future BD discs will work as well as the benefit of getting firmware upgrades automatically from Sony without having to go looking for them.

As for the whole "format war" both sides have seemingly resigned themselves to stalemate if you listen to the CEOs and other folks in the know. IMHO this whole "format war" isn't going to be won by anyone. I bet digital downloads step up and kill off this generation of players in the next few years... so you sort of have to go into this whole "format war" knowing that you the consumer stand to lose right out of the gate. I think that is another reason I leaned towards the PS3 and the Xbox add on. They at least gave me this feeling that if either side "won" or neither side "won" I still had a video game console (speaking as someone who has a Mini Disc player still in his basement somewhere).

But in the end it's all about what you want and from the sound of it you've already made up your mind. I myself am skittish about purchasing the "cutting edge" before it's been out in the field for a while. I have this sad history of feeling like a beta tester when buying cutting edge stuff as most of my experiences have been negative... it taught me the hard way to be patient and wait to see how a product is going to "roll out" before blindly getting in line on launch day and then dealing with all the bugs and "teething" that the launch product has. But then again Samsung seems to have made a name for themselves lately in HD stuff. I have no doubt it's a good player... I'm just skittish about buying the new horse before I've seen it prance around the track a few times.

[David Hingtgen]

With the rate of advancement for HD electronics, 1 year is not "brand new/cutting edge". It's early, but not nearly as "beta-tester" as it used to be. HDTV's are now on a 9-month product cycle I think, if not shorter. The models that hit the shelves in March are already going away.

[David Hingtgen]

And the counterpoint: Truth is sadder than fiction. The woes of trying to get people with 5000-buck TV's to use HDMI and not RF:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222962

Read and be frightened. And this particular post really says it all (that's a 360's AV cable, BTW--launch ones didn't have the big obvious sticker, but most do) http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p...mp;postcount=73

[JsARCLIGHT]

By "cutting edge" I mean buying something before it's even out. People who stand in line and put down payments on new electronics that are not even released yet scare me. They just have so much trust in the technology and then they all bitch to high heaven when the expensive machine they just bought turns out to be a doorstop. With all the sped up development cycles and rush rush rush to market these days a lot of products are shipping in states of "unfinished" or unperfected. The HD market is kind of glutted with a lot of half baked product these days that was rushed to market before it was really thoroughly tested or even basically tested. Then that whole situation is compounded by the internet and the dramatic "fanboy effect" it has. Can you truthfully trust early reviews, even from "trustworthy" sources? IMHO no, you can't. You need to wait until all the reviews are in and all the facts are out. The original Xbox 360 is a prime example. The thing is an albatross of a design that totally butt humped a lot of early adopters (and still is to a good degree)... but when it first came out it had glowing reviews and people waiting in line to jerk the thing off. Then there are all those super new Samsung LCD TV's that everyone raves about that have bad HDMI boards in them. Several of the early adopters had to suffer through board replacements, firmware upgrades, etc. etc. and only after the TV's were in the market for a good 6 months did all these problems come to light, as well as their remedies.

As for the people who don't even know how to hook up their equipment, that does not surprise me in the least. Think about how many people don't understand how their car works or how to do basic maintenance on it, or understand how to properly use their cell phones, etc. etc. etc. We are living in an age of a lot of stupid people engaging in "smart" activities and hobbies without knowing what they are doing... and most of them don't care simply because it's all about the consumer culture. About "having it" and not so much knowing it or benefiting from it. Most people buy something because someone else told them to, or because someone they know has one. Only the hardcore geeks research things, learn how they work, buy them and install them/operate them correctly. Your average man on the street just doesn't care to know... he just wants whatever is "new" that he saw on TV.

[eugimon]

I don't think it's fair to characterize people who don't know the ins and outs of their tech as stupid. These people grew up around a technology that was essentially little different from a toaster in how it was used. You plugged it in to the wall, plugged in an antenna (the source didn't matter they all plugged into the same jack) and turned it on. Suddenly TVs now have what? Composite, S-Vido, Component, HDMI, Optical, VGA jacks and HDMI seemingly changes every six months. A cable used to be a cable, but now you have to check if it's compliant to some standard that wasn't even around when you bought your TV in the first place. Hell, there's so much confusion as to what to even plug into your brand new HDTV and what format does what or what resolution to watch it in. Just a few years ago, TV had ONE resolution, as far as mos people knew, and now it has what, 7? Seven different display modes?

Frankly, I understand why people don't "get" their technology because technology is no longer being developed with the average user in mind. It's being built and designed around the early adopter, the type of person who doesn't mind scouring the internet for firmware updates and codes to get into the service mode. Unfortunately, like most technology, no one pays any real technology on the user interface. As the capabilities get more and more complicated, the UI for most of it remains daunting and cumbersome.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I have to disagree. Anyone who purchases something without knowing the ins and outs of that thing is asking for trouble. To simply "assume" that something is as it has always been is a grave error. Times and technology change... and we have to change with them.

What I will do is recant the "stupid" and replace it with "lazy". Because I do realize that even a stupid person can read a manual and understand what to do, but a lazy person just doesn't care. They want it either done for them or so easy their kid could do it... and the scary thing is their kids CAN do it, which makes you wonder.

[eugimon]

I'll agree with lazy for the most part...

One thing we're assuming here is that the people who own these sets were the ones who bought them. My aunt is a prime example, she's an older lady and her son went and bought her a big HD DLP set so she could watch her shows. Only, my aunt likes to watch korean dramas which she rents by the dozen on VHS cassettes. She didn't need an HD set but her son wanted to do her a solid. It doesn't make her stupid or lazy, she just way different priorities on what she wants her TV to do.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Not to sound crass but she didn't buy it then, did she? It was forced upon her. That is completely different.

I'm talking about the brainless consumer whores that see something and want it, then do no research (or very minimal research) and go out and get it only to slap it together in their living room, wipe their butt with the instruction manual and get on with their lives not knowing that all the money they just spent is for naught because they didn't bother to read the manual to know they hooked the thing up wrong. I know more people than I can count who "got the HD" just because they saw a commercial for it on their old TV or heard people talk about it. There is a guy (who will remain nameless) I know who went out and bought a LCD HDTV just because he heard me talking about them. Now I have become this doorknob's de facto technical support for that darned thing because he knows nothing about it... all he knew is that "the smart kids" had them and the Best Buy ad said it was the best thing so he had to have one too. Every time I'm in Best Buy I see people getting in over their heads talking to the blue shirts about HD stuff. Heck, just this Christmas when leaving I heard some guy loading a 60" HDTV into his truck "this will work with my DVD player... right?" Great time to ask that question.

Edit: What REALLY scares me is the analog to digital crossover that is set to happen in a year. I am fully expecting a downright public uproar when it happens. If "consumers" are as dense and "stuck in the past" as I think they are (and as much as everyone makes them out to be) then it's going to be a cold February next year.

[David Hingtgen]

As for connections:

My NES was originally hooked up via RF. Next TV? Composite! New, better, and looked a lot better. (TMNT was the test). Next TV had S-video, but didn't use it. (It was one of the TV's that didn't like SNES S-video----they're out there). Next TV almost had component, but that particular sub-model did not. But it was in the manual and I knew about it and knew it was better. And that's a 1998 model. Component certainly isn't new (for decent TV's in the US at least---my 1999 20in lacks it, but that's expected). DVI/HDMI is effectively one new connection since then. If you can't handle 1 new connection per decade, you're pretty hopeless.

PS---those "DVD-player connection kits" that sell for 40 bucks at Wal-Mart should be banned. It only encourages stupidity. But the profit margin has to be insane. "Connect your player to any TV!" Yeah, it's a composite-to-RF-splitter. And you KNOW they're being sold side-by-side with the one Sony Bravia Wal-mart sells. And they're part of the reason people are having problems--instead of educating people and encouraging them to use 1980's standards of connection, they just keep engraining it in people's minds that RF is the way to go, and the only way. I can't wait to see a HDMI-RF adapter in stores...

PPS---oh man, February '09 is going to be insane. Stock up on food, water, and ammo.

PPPS--marketing error. Component sounds like composite and also uses composite(RCA) cables and jacks. Try explaining THAT to Joe sixpack. (At least Toshiba called it colorstream for years, as they invented it--but even they usually call it component now)

[eugimon]

Well, that's why I said in my first sentance that not everyone we're knocking for not knowing the ins and outs of their sets bought them...

Besides, it's not like you can even buy SD sets at BB or CC anymore anyways. But here's the thing, people ARE asking questions at best buy or Fry's or where-ever. They're just getting bad information. People just assume that sales people know what they're talking about and accept what they hear.

Anyways, my point was just that not everyone who has these things and sets them up wrong or doesn't utilize it to the fullest is stupid. They could be lazy, or misinformed or forced to upgrade by well intentioned relatives or greedy sales people. Besides, not everyone is a technophile and not everyone buys a new set every decade. My parents used their old sony console TV until I bought them a new panasonic TV... 5 years ago and that's the TV they're using now. They don't know about HDMI because it's meaningless to them.

The apple mentality is a very valid one. They don't want to know how it works, they just want it to work.

Edited January 1, 2008 by eugimon

[JsARCLIGHT]

Best Buy still sells SD sets... they sell tons of them. They just have them hidden away over in the corner where you can't see them because they are pushing the super expensive HD sets that require gobs of extra cables, players and parts.

Plus they probably don't want half their customers coming back in February '09 bitching them out that they were sold "obsolete" electronics.

Edit: and I still disagree. If you are spending all the money to buy something you should at minimum learn about it and know what you are getting into. People who don't are foolishly wasting money, electricity, you name it... and It's not just electronics, it's everything. You guys would positively crap yourselves if you saw some of the incompetent people who purchase firearms from my friend's store. Those are the same people who go out and buy $2K HDTV's and hook them up to a VCR with a coax cable. They never bother to learn anything about what they are buying, they figure they "know it all" already. Now just imagine that person with a revolver.

[eugimon]

Best Buy still sells SD sets... they sell tons of them. They just have them hidden away over in the corner where you can't see them because they are pushing the super expensive HD sets that require gobs of extra cables, players and parts.

Plus they probably don't want half their customers coming back in February '09 bitching them out that they were sold "obsolete" electronics.

Oh wait, sorry, I was thinking CC. Yeah, best buy has SD sets. But at either store, the SD sets they have or no name brands or those little cabinet TVs. You have to admit, gone are the days when you could pick up a nice big screen SD WEGA. If you want anything over 30" you have to go for an HD set.

Meh, people have different priorities in life. Not everyone is a technophile. My friend is a sys admin at google, taught himself enough linux to get a job there but has a hard time putting together his own box and doesn't really care that much about AV stuff. Last time I checked, he still had his PS2 hooked up with the s-video cable I bought him to his 7 year old WEGA. I know another guy runs an IT department and his rig at home is an old CRT HD proton tv and he has a full proton (his family runs it) AV setup but doesn't have anything other than the TV hooked up to the cable box. He also just doesn't care. Not everyone cares, they see a picture on the tube and its good enough for them.

Edited January 1, 2008 by eugimon

[David Hingtgen]

Best example of buying what you don't understand---the guy who buys the $3000 camera with 5 different lens adapters and just leaves everything on "auto". Don't buy more camera than you understand how to use. I just went up to a $350 one recently, and I'm still learning/fiddling with basic stuff like ISO vs f-stop, etc. (It always annoys me when the picture I took on auto comes out better than the one I tried to do myself--means the camera is still smarter than I am)

[JsARCLIGHT]

Oh wait, sorry, I was thinking CC. Yeah, best buy has SD sets. But at either store, the SD sets they have or no name brands or those little cabinet TVs. You have to admit, gone are the days when you could pick up a nice big screen SD WEGA. If you want anything over 30" you have to go for an HD set.

That is mostly because those sets are really no longer made. Those 30" WEGAs were the "big boys" of their day... the thousand dollar "elite geek level" sets. They have since been replaced by the HD sets. The retail outlets are a pretty good indicator of how the market is going. Right now the push is to HD because of the pending analog to digital conversion that will occur in a year. No manufacturer wants to keep making SD sets, they are a dead breed, so they have all switched over to HD sets.

My wife's father is a prime example. He wants a new TV and he is doing a lot of research... his problem is that he currently owns an old Mitsubishi 60" rear projector. He is not so much concerned about picture quality as he is about SIZE. He's an older gentleman and he wants a big BIG picture, 60"+. His problem is that all he can find in that size lately are hugely expensive HDTV's. He is going to get one here eventually but he is just so stymied by how expensive they are. I talk to him on the phone a lot and have been trying to get him to lower his size requirement so he can get a smaller, more affordable set but he is dead set on huge and it's going to cost him. BUT he has done so much research that when he does finally buy his set he'll know exactly what he needs for it and how to get it going. My concern is that he is old and I may be drafted to fly to Iowa and help him install it all.