High Definition Media & Technology Thread

[Ghadrack]

I have several friend's who still have never purchased a DVD player and use their PS2 as their primary home entertainment DVD player. The PS3, due to the costs of next gen players is going to be a lot of people's primary HiDef movie player, I know it will be mine.

I bought a nice top of the line Panasonic AC3 DVD player the year they came out mine was about $600.00. My first Blu-Ray player being the PS3 was $599 so the same cost and it does about 6 million things.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Another big reason I bought a PS3 as a BD player, besides cost, was that it has an active internet connection built in (WiFi) as well as access to an online update service. With all the talk of BluRay requiring firmware updates I figured it would be easier to keep track of if the box itself was "smart" and connected. The way I see it an "off the shelf" standalone BD player will need to be "spoon fed" firmware updates as they come in whereas the PS3 "knows" it has an update waiting.

The same is true of the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive. Being connected to the Xbox much like the PS3 it is "hot" and actively connected to an update network... which means when I pop in a movie if there is an update for that movie or a firmware update it automatically finds it and does it. Many standalone boxes don't really have that luxury.

[The Shade]

Another big reason I bought a PS3 as a BD player, besides cost, was that it has an active internet connection built in (WiFi) as well as access to an online update service. With all the talk of BluRay requiring firmware updates I figured it would be easier to keep track of if the box itself was "smart" and connected. The way I see it an "off the shelf" standalone BD player will need to be "spoon fed" firmware updates as they come in whereas the PS3 "knows" it has an update waiting.

The same is true of the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive. Being connected to the Xbox much like the PS3 it is "hot" and actively connected to an update network... which means when I pop in a movie if there is an update for that movie or a firmware update it automatically finds it and does it. Many standalone boxes don't really have that luxury.

What kind of firmware updates for BD players are we talking about here? Disc compatibility issues? New AACS keys? Or just general player updates?

[JsARCLIGHT]

A recent big one was the BD-J spec update. Pretty much every old standalone player on the market did not support that spec and had to be firmware updated to properly play all the features of some of the new BD-J discs that used java embedded features. Pirates of the Caribbean, The Descent and Chicken Little are three that come to mind... with Descent in particular just plain not working in pretty much every player without a firmware upgrade to support BD-J.

[The Shade]

That was a quick reply. Do you refresh every five minutes?

So, most firmware are really for new interactive innovations introduced sometime after the player was manufactured. It's good that that option is available to consummers. Is the update performed over a USB drive, wi-fi connection, some other way? One of my sister's friends recently purchased a HD tv and it includes a USB interface for firmware updates. I suspect most sets are similar.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Fast connection + roam a lot + mod.

I see all.

You got me how most firmware updates are intended to be performed. My guess would be D. Any of the Above.

I would just really think it would suck big time to go out and buy a new BD or HD DVD movie, get home and pop it into your player only to discover it won't play a lot of the features... or at all... because you don't have the current firmware installed. Then the user would have the hassle of getting the firmware installed onto their player before they could enjoy their new movie.

With those of us who run PS3's and Xbox HD DVD addons it's simply a matter of 1. Insert disc, 2. Hit play, 3. See a pop-up saying we need to upgrade to watch the movie, do we agree? 4. Hit yes and wait for it to upgrade itself, 5. Watch movie.

[eugimon]

Looks like the format war isn't quite over... paramount and dreamworks reportedly ditching blu-ray for HD exclusivity:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/20/paramou...-hd-dvd-exclus/

[JsARCLIGHT]

But... but... but... Blu ray is winning!

The plot thickens.

[eugimon]

Who knows, maybe this means that this christmas we'll see a flood of budget priced HD DVD players? But with Transformers now an HD exclusive, HD finally has an A list title to go up against Blu Ray exclusives like Pirates 3.

[Dangard Ace]

Shrek the Third: Don't care.

Blades of Glory: Don't care.

Transformers: .....you F!!!!!!!ers!!!

Now I'm back to being format neutral in late 2008.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Paramount means only one thing to me: Indiana Jones.

[bandit29]

Strange that they'd both stop supporting Blu-ray. According to this article Blu-ray is out selling HD-DVD 2:1

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176792.html?...orenews;title;8

[Necron_99]

Paramount means only one thing to me: Indiana Jones.

Star Trek

[Nied]

Paramount means only one thing to me: Indiana Jones.

And Star Trek, don't forget Star Trek. Hell they're already releasing the first seaons of TOS remastered as an HD-DVD exclusive (although at a price that means I'll only rent it).

[Nied]

Star Trek

Beat me to it.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm not much of a Trekkie... in fact I've never seen 75% of Star Trek. I've always been a Star Wars person myself, although I do agree that Trek will sell a butt load of HD DVD's.

My personal watermark titles are the first three Star Wars movies, the Indiana Jones movies and Aliens. Two of those three are 20th Century Fox and as yet to be declared on a HD format. Technically Indy is yet to be declared as well, but to have Indy's parent company suddenly pull support of Blu Ray is kind of damning in my book. I know a lot of Indy fans (and Trek fans) have just "had their minds made up for them" so to speak.

I find it interesting that they are pulling the Blu Ray releases they already announced so close to their release, like the Blades of Glory Blu Ray. I have to imagine that someone, somewhere saw this coming. Some person in some level of management suddenly noticing them NOT making any Blu Ray editions but only HD DVD editions. I wonder how hard it was to contain THAT from leaking out?

[bandit29]

Some more news about this.

Paramount Drops Blu-ray Support; Does Not Include Spielberg Movies

Posted August 20, 2007 by Josh

Paramount Despite selling more movies on the Blu-ray format, Paramount has announced today that they will begin supporting HD DVD exclusively. This move, rumored to be driven by a $150M exclusivity deal with the HD DVD group, comes after Paramount began favoring Blu-ray releases with higher quality video encodings and more HD features. The deal covers all of Paramount's properties excluding those directed by Steven Spielberg.

The move will inevitably lengthen a format war which should never have been. Consumers will unfortunately suffer the most, as they will be forced to support a format which is being supported by corporations instead of consumers. No word was given as to how long the exclusivity agreement is for, but rumors indicate through 2008.

High definition enthusiasts can now only hope that a DVD-A/SACD situation hasn't been initiated by this decision.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=412

and even more news on this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_en_...5oUb24zdAis0NUE

Standalone HD DVD players have a bigger slice of the market than Blu-ray players. But when you count Sony's PlayStation 3 game console, which comes with a Blu-ray drive, there are more Blu-ray players in U.S. homes.

Edited August 20, 2007 by dejr8bud

[eugimon]

haha, if the deal doesn't include spielberg, it has no teeth.

[Dangard Ace]

I'm not much of a Trekkie... in fact I've never seen 75% of Star Trek. I've always been a Star Wars person myself, although I do agree that Trek will sell a butt load of HD DVD's.

My personal watermark titles are the first three Star Wars movies, the Indiana Jones movies and Aliens. Two of those three are 20th Century Fox and as yet to be declared on a HD format. Technically Indy is yet to be declared as well, but to have Indy's parent company suddenly pull support of Blu Ray is kind of damning in my book. I know a lot of Indy fans (and Trek fans) have just "had their minds made up for them" so to speak.

I'd add Predator and Bladerunner and that'd be my list

Movies directed by Steven Spielberg, however, will continue to be released in both formats.

So Indiana is still BluRay? Screw TF's then. The DVD movies that I'll re-buy in HD format are still Bluray.

[mikeszekely]

Aside from the higher maximum storage capacity, I don't believe that Blu-ray was ever the "consumer's choice." I was under the impression that the movie studios all jumped on the Blu-ray bandwagon because BR supposedly offered better copy protection. Copy protection that, as far as I recall, was already cracked anyway. Blu-ray really didn't take of until the PS3 was launched, and PS3 owners snagging the Blu-ray versions of films helps explain why when the same movie is available in both formats, the BR outsells the HD-DVD (hell, I've contributed myself to that with TMNT and 300). And overall sales of BR discs are likely higher due to having Sony Pictures shoveling out pretty much every movie they release now on BR exclusively. Oh, and let's not forget about corporations like Target and Blockbuster trying to make up our minds in the format war for us.

Despite owning a PS3 and no HD-DVD player, despite having bought a handful of Blu-rays, I've always thought HD-DVD the better format. HD-DVDs (including 300) have interactive bonuses that Blu-rays don't. Many HD-DVDs can be flipped over and played in regular DVD players, which is a nice bonus when you only want to buy one disc to watch on the home theater at home, or take over to your HD-less friend's house to watch. And yeah, Blu-ray has more titles to pick from, but for every one Pirates of the Carribean, you get four Are We Done Yets. HD-DVD may not have quantity, but it's got quality, with stuff like Serenity, the Matrix Trilogy (okay, maybe we only want the first one, but still), and now Star Trek, Transformers, and Battlestar Galactica.

[Nied]

Aside from the higher maximum storage capacity, I don't believe that Blu-ray was ever the "consumer's choice." I was under the impression that the movie studios all jumped on the Blu-ray bandwagon because BR supposedly offered better copy protection. Copy protection that, as far as I recall, was already cracked anyway. Blu-ray really didn't take of until the PS3 was launched, and PS3 owners snagging the Blu-ray versions of films helps explain why when the same movie is available in both formats, the BR outsells the HD-DVD (hell, I've contributed myself to that with TMNT and 300). And overall sales of BR discs are likely higher due to having Sony Pictures shoveling out pretty much every movie they release now on BR exclusively. Oh, and let's not forget about corporations like Target and Blockbuster trying to make up our minds in the format war for us.

Despite owning a PS3 and no HD-DVD player, despite having bought a handful of Blu-rays, I've always thought HD-DVD the better format. HD-DVDs (including 300) have interactive bonuses that Blu-rays don't. Many HD-DVDs can be flipped over and played in regular DVD players, which is a nice bonus when you only want to buy one disc to watch on the home theater at home, or take over to your HD-less friend's house to watch. And yeah, Blu-ray has more titles to pick from, but for every one Pirates of the Carribean, you get four Are We Done Yets. HD-DVD may not have quantity, but it's got quality, with stuff like Serenity, the Matrix Trilogy (okay, maybe we only want the first one, but still), and now Star Trek, Transformers, and Battlestar Galactica.

I haven't jumped into the HD war yet, but you just listed why I'm more inclined to want HD-DVD to come out on top. Both have overly onerous DRM but Blu-Ray is definitely is worse.

How is Paramount's exemption of Spielberg's movies affected by the fact that Dreamworks is also moving to HD-DVD exclusivity?

[Roy Focker]

Hey I plan on getting a PS3 soon. No need for exclusive movies. Wouldn't it be better to get money from everyone?

[Alpha OTS]

Ok, that 360 HD-DVD special.

I just noticed that if you buy an 360 HD-DVD player from bestbuy.com, they'll give you 300 the HD movie for free. This is just a bestbuy offer, right? And it won't make someone ineligible for that 5 free HD movies offer, will it? Anyone try this or have found a better deal?

[David Hingtgen]

Well, since MICHAEL BAY's Transformers is A MICHAEL BAY FILM PRESENTED by MICHAEL BAY, but Spielburg is exec producer---where does that fall in the Paramount decision? Because honestly, I want to have a HDTV by the time and for Transformers to come out---and the format it comes out on will GREATLY affect whether I try to snag a PS3 by the end of the year.

PS-- http://www.lilformers.com/comic0051.php

[JsARCLIGHT]

The Empire Strikes Back...

In the face of Paramount/Dreamworks deffection to HD DVD FOX reaffirms Blu Ray exclusivity, Shows some if it's "Hand"

[Alpha OTS]

Well, since MICHAEL BAY's Transformers is A MICHAEL BAY FILM PRESENTED by MICHAEL BAY, but Spielburg is exec producer---where does that fall in the Paramount decision? Because honestly, I want to have a HDTV by the time and for Transformers to come out---and the format it comes out on will GREATLY affect whether I try to snag a PS3 by the end of the year.

PS-- http://www.lilformers.com/comic0051.php

Word on the allspark is that it's an HD-DVD exclusive. For how long? Who knows. But it's steered me towards an HD-DVD attachment for the 360 for now.

Edit: Found the link at tformers.com click here to go there.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Alpha OTS

[Dangard Ace]

Aside from the higher maximum storage capacity, I don't believe that Blu-ray was ever the "consumer's choice." I was under the impression that the movie studios all jumped on the Blu-ray bandwagon because BR supposedly offered better copy protection. Copy protection that, as far as I recall, was already cracked anyway.

Actually not true. The old encryption algorithm that was used on both HD and BD was cracked back Jan/Feb of this year. BD+ was announced in June. I haven't seen news of it being cracked yet.

Despite owning a PS3 and no HD-DVD player, despite having bought a handful of Blu-rays, I've always thought HD-DVD the better format. HD-DVDs (including 300) have interactive bonuses that Blu-rays don't.

Better format? Debatable. Better interactive bonuses? Can't argue there becauce BD-J hasn't been implemented yet until standard 1.1 or 1.2 I believe.

Many HD-DVDs can be flipped over and played in regular DVD players, which is a nice bonus when you only want to buy one disc to watch on the home theater at home, or take over to your HD-less friend's house to watch. And yeah, Blu-ray has more titles to pick from, but for every one Pirates of the Carribean, you get four Are We Done Yets. HD-DVD may not have quantity, but it's got quality, with stuff like Serenity, the Matrix Trilogy (okay, maybe we only want the first one, but still), and now Star Trek, Transformers, and Battlestar Galactica.

Oh please. There's just as many crap titles released by HD-DVD oriented studios as there are for BluRay. Go to Highdefdigest and sort by Star Grade quality. On both HD format lists 50% of titles scored 3 stars or less.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Yeah the shovelware is rife on both formats, really only a handful of titles shine for both BD and HD DVD. It's gotten to the point that I won't buy a HD media movie until I read a review of it on HDD.com first... there is just too much crap out there to "take a chance" on something that costs as much as a video game.

Also, Universal Studios are really the only people who have released those "dual format" HD DVDs, and only on "select" ones. They have actually been backpedaling on that feature lately and have been re-releasing several of their library on HD DVD only discs and discontinuing the dual format versions. It's not all that cost-effective for people to pay $35+ for one movie that comes in both formats. I myself own Hot Fuzz as a dual format disc and I only really flipped the disc to see what the SD cut of the movie was like... since then it has had zero play time. I would have felt much better about the purchase if it was HD DVD only with $10 less of a price tag.

Edit: It also appears the defection of Paramount/Dreamworks has caused quite the stir in the next gen media war. It seems the Blu Ray camp is rushing to drop press releases all over the place, it's hard to keep up. First Fox now Disney, stating they will have Sleeping Beauty, Finding Nemo and two other "tent peg" titles out by early '08. Looks like this war is staring to go into defcon 1... it may just go nuclear by Christmas.

[mikeszekely]

Actually not true. The old encryption algorithm that was used on both HD and BD was cracked back Jan/Feb of this year. BD+ was announced in June. I haven't seen news of it being cracked yet.

Well, then I was under the wrong impression, although it reaffirms my belief that many studios jumped on the Blu-ray bandwagon because of copy protection.

Better format? Debatable. Better interactive bonuses? Can't argue there becauce BD-J hasn't been implemented yet until standard 1.1 or 1.2 I believe.

Better, of course, being a subjective opinion. An opinion I presented largely for the objective reasons listed.

BD-J actually has already been implemented, by the way. Crank, Speed, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Chicken Little are just some of the movies that use it. For the most part, BD-J is mostly just used to make slick menus, although Pirates uses it for an interactive game.

1.1, aka "Final Standard Profile," is mandatory by November. AFAIK, it requires to players to add support for a second video decoder and a second audio decoder. 2.0, or "BD-Live," adds internet support, although no 2.0 compatible players have been announced. Mind you, the support being added is already mandatory for HD-DVD.

Oh please. There's just as many crap titles released by HD-DVD oriented studios as there are for BluRay. Go to Highdefdigest and sort by Star Grade quality. On both HD format lists 50% of titles scored 3 stars or less.

This is, of course, the most subjective of criteria in the format war. And while I certainly agree that both formats get plenty of crap, it is my opinion that most of the movies from Sony and Fox line the very bottom of the proverbial barrel. While I can't in good conscience say that Disney movies are crap, aside from the Pirates movies there's nothing in their catalog that I'm really interested in owning. For me at least, Paramount, Universal, and Dreamworks happen to have a slightly more interested catalog. So I'm not presenting as gospel the fact that HD-DVD exclusives tend to be better than Blu-ray exclusives. I am, however, stating that as my personal belief, and combining it with the facts mentioned previously as my reasons holding the admittedly subjective opinion that HD-DVD is currently the better format.

[CoryHolmes]

I'm quite happy with my 360 HD-DVD drive, but I may have to look into getting a Blu-Ray player/drive if only because Stargate Atlantis is due out on that format. Other than that, I'm quite happy with my HD-DVDness. the fact that TF is coming out for that only makes me happier

[David Hingtgen]

I was just thinking and realized an obvious point:

There's no way 120hz interpolated mode could work without pretty severe lag on a game system. To interpolate the extra frame, it needs to know the current frame, AND the next frame, then calculate the new one. No problem on a movie or TV, it just waits 1/4 second before playing to "read ahead" then it's set to keep going for the rest of the show. But on a game, it can't "look ahead", nor could you wait for it to see 2 frames then interpolate the next one---that'd be big time lag.

So I'll probably snag the cheaper Sony TV, or hopefully the new cheaper version of the 3000 series will be just as good. The 3000 series seems to lack a game mode though, that could be a problem---the XBR may disable 120hz in game mode, but at least it has a hopefully lag-free game mode. A TV without 120hz that still "beautifies" the image through heavy processing could be just as laggy. Mainly it all depends on what goes on deepest discount this holiday season.

[Gaijin]

The Paramount move will prolong a war that MS is hoping for. They would like both HD optical formats dead and go with digital distribution through them of course.

Well, if anything else, this will now make a long war that will scare consumers away and kill both or both will stay niche. I would prefer for one side to win, and I want it soon. If HD DVD was in BD's position yesterday, I would have bought an HD DVD player. BD still has more exclusives but at least HD DVD now has 2 studios instead of one.

All in all, the losers in this war after this bomb are us. Dual format players, or two separate players to play two different kinds of movies? NO thanks. Oh well, so much for the war being on it's way over. The Paramount deal is good for 18 months. Could change, but this war now is just utter ridiculous.

[eugimon]

So, apparantly michael bay is not happy with paramount's HD exclusive thing:

http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2299

He's threatening to not do TF2 over this... so uhm... I dunno, yay?

[JsARCLIGHT]

I don't really see why directors would be up in arms over this... Blu Ray and HD DVD barely hold 10% of the market with the rest still overwhelmingly dominated by standard DVD. It will be some time before either HD media comes close to eclipsing DVD as the dominant media format. For directors to bitch about "people not seeing their movie" due to the HD media format chosen by their "bosses" is kind of pointless... it's like them complaining that people won't see their movie because it isn't released on VHS anymore, or Laserdisc. The vast majority of movie buyers out there will buy the regular DVD when it comes out... the next gen media versions will hardly count for much sales overall. Hell, I'd bet money that just as much revenue if not more was LOST due to piracy than they make from HD media sales.

Like it or not the big production companies ARE the power in Hollywood. Their decisions stand as they write the checks. No Transformers 2 for Michael Bay? O RLY? Paramount will simply say "NEXT!" and the next guy who wants a multi million dollar payday will step up and make the movie. It's a business... and this move by Paramount/Dreamworks is a business move. They got a nice big payday to make this move, no businessman would "limit his options" without good financial reason.

[CoryHolmes]

No Bay for TF2? I'm crushed by this. No, really I am.