Vermillion21 Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 the VF-11 is much better Yeah, I prefer the VF-11B over the YF-21 too ....
ruskiiVFaussie Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Can't wait to pose my Q-Rau with my 1/60 YF-21 Batts........
David Hingtgen Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Can the -22 remove the gunpods from the belly armor, or are they permanently integrated? I haven't seen M7 in so long I can't remember if Max ever fires in battroid mode or anything.
kensei Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) The -21's battroid mode rocks because it's DIFFERENT. The feet and legs aren't the engines and rear fuselage! The arms don't hold a shield in fighter mode, nor have the gunpod clamped between them! The -19's a bit different, but it's still just a VF-1 with a Z-fold chest in its basic transformation. Even the Sv-51 doesn't have the uniqueness that the -21 does. (And it's a Q-Rau, so that makes Milia's red -22 the coolest one of the entire -21/22 family) Not really. The YF-21 still has it's wings underneath the back, and also there are shields, which are just doubling as tailfins. YF-19s head is also slung over the top as opposed to underneath, leg transformation is different, as are the shape and placement of the wings and GERWALK mode config and internal missile pallets. It's a far cry from being a VF-1. Edited July 28, 2007 by kensei
David Hingtgen Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 The -19 transforms by lowering the legs, the feet are the engine nozzles, it swings the wings back, swings the arms forward from between the legs, pops its head up, and folds the mid-section of the plane forward over the nose to make the chest. It's pretty close to the VF-1 overall. The details are different, but it's similar. The VF-11 is too. Basically, the YF-21 is a fighter plane shell, over a Q-Rau hiding inside. It's a total shellformer in Transformers notation. Of all Transformers toys that are beyond the "robot under the car/plane" transformation, there's two basic types: A. Limbs/body make up the alt mode parts, just rearranged B. "Shellformer" where the robot is basically whole but encapsulated inside the alt mode. Every valk except the VF-1 is the former, while the YF-21 is the latter.
Jedi Knight Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Yeah i have the M/Mecha Designs, but i didn't notice the disengaged limbs high speed mode in there, i'd like to know those images are in the Macross Plus Edition artbook, or the other. Umm not the Macross Plus Game edition either. I guess it's the movie version. TIA Macross Plus: Movie Edition, page 42.
kensei Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) The -19 transforms by lowering the legs, the feet are the engine nozzles, it swings the wings back, swings the arms forward from between the legs, pops its head up, and folds the mid-section of the plane forward over the nose to make the chest. It's pretty close to the VF-1 overall. The details are different, but it's similar. The VF-11 is too. Basically, the YF-21 is a fighter plane shell, over a Q-Rau hiding inside. It's a total shellformer in Transformers notation. Of all Transformers toys that are beyond the "robot under the car/plane" transformation, there's two basic types: A. Limbs/body make up the alt mode parts, just rearranged B. "Shellformer" where the robot is basically whole but encapsulated inside the alt mode. Every valk except the VF-1 is the former, while the YF-21 is the latter. The YF-21 main body transforms in the same way as the VF-1, it folds in half and the legs, while not also doubling as the main engines, will transform more similarly to the VF-1 than the 19 ever will. Also the 19 has no over the top backpack with powerful vernier jets, they are located underneath and pointing to the rear of the GERWALK mode. GERWALK also has the arms go over the top instead of underneath, the YF-21 is closer to the VF-1 in that respect. And the way that the main body of the YF-19 is COMPLETELY differnent, from the VF-1, only the nose folds down, and the main cockpit moves back instead of forward and down, again, the YF-21 is more similiar to the VF-1 in this respect. Forward canard wings are also present, making is look a lot different from the VF-1 but more similar to the VF-11 Thunderbolt. In terms of similarity, it is less similiar to the VF-1 than the VF-1 is, but yet at the same time it is completely its own entity, like the YF-21. I too, could cop out and say the YF-21 is similar, but the details are different, but I won't, cause it is unique in itself. Edited July 28, 2007 by kensei
David Hingtgen Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 I guess we just have to disagree on what a transformation step "detail" is vs that step "overall". Basically, I say that where a piece starts out/what it is made from of the fighter mode is the "overall", but whether it moves above or below/rotates another piece is the 'detail'. Example: Arms. Both the YF-19 and VF-1 store the arms in the middle of the rear fuselage, between the legs, holding the gunpod. As do the VF-0 and VF-11. "Overall" the arms are the same piece/area in all those valks, and they all swing forward from a point near the head where they attach to the mid-fuselage/chest plate. Some go above the wings, some below. But that last sentence is a minor detail of the transformation that doesn't affect the fact that they all have the arms transform in the same way, starting at the same place, forming the same part of the plane. The YF-21's arms are the sides of the fuselage, and are attached to the intakes. That's a huge difference--merely going above or below the wings in the process doesn't make it like or unlike a minor valk. Just like the Sv-51's 180-degree-turning lower legs (a detail) doesn't change the fact that it still has a VF-0/1/11/19 style of overall leg transformation---the intakes are the hips, the legs are the engine nacelles, and the feet are the nozzles. But I still don't see how a YF-19's legs are any different from a VF-1 or VF-11's. From fighter mode, you pull them straight down and spread the nozzles. I still see the YF-21 as being the most unique valk, transformation-wise, by far. The sheer fact that it can fly without its limbs proves that I think. Take off a YF-19's limbs, and see what you get in fighter mode.
kensei Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Yeah if we were to split it, you'd come up with similar scores of similarity. Part of it goes the YF-19 to be similar to the VF-1, the other part YF-21. A major difference of the YF-21 is the shell where the limbs splay out I agree, much like a turtle. Edited July 28, 2007 by kensei
Vic Mancini Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 But I still don't see how a YF-19's legs are any different from a VF-1 or VF-11's. From fighter mode, you pull them straight down and spread the nozzles. I still see the YF-21 as being the most unique valk, transformation-wise, by far. The sheer fact that it can fly without its limbs proves that I think. Take off a YF-19's limbs, and see what you get in fighter mode. True, the 21 differs from the VF-1 more than the 19, but I wouldn't call the 19 similar to the VF-1. In a way, the legs don't even move between the transformation from F to B on the 19, where as they swivel 180 degrees forward on a swing arm for the VF-1. The backpack, head, and shoulders all move differently as well. The way the fuselage of the 21 seperates in the middle and folds forward is actually closer to the VF-1 than what the 19's fuselage does. But you're definitely right about the legs being the engines and the arms being stowed between them in F mode, which is pretty standard for almost every other Valk design. Both Valks are very unique IMO, but the 21 without a doubt is more unique, which I think was kind of the point of Mac Plus. The 19 vs 21 competition in many ways was a competition between the old vs the new. The 21 was the new, radically different Q-Rau based, Zentraedi technology incorporating, morphing wings, mind control Valk, while the 19 was more traditional in nature by sporting a more human design aesthetic and the tried tested and true analogue interface. The radical element of the 19, however, was the forward swept wings which perfectly suited Isamu's rebellious, against-the-grain, rogue, personality. In no other Macross series have the Valks so perfectly matched the personalities of their pilots. I dig that about Plus.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) 21 hides the robot arms and legs as seperate things better. Whereas the vf-1 has the legs and arms actually be part of the aircraft body itself. (like how optimus prime doesn't hide underneath the truck shell, his body parts are the truck itself split up) 21 doesn't even have a head turret. Just a ball hiding inside the plane rather than coming out of the plane itself. vf-1 has a pin and a nutsack dangling under the fighter as if to offend aliens by exposing itself to them. Not so much concealment with vf-1. Even the gunpods don't protrude from the plane. Edited July 28, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
ruskiiVFaussie Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 TIA Macross Plus: Movie Edition, page 42. Thankyou!
Scream Man Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 I see Daves point on the 21, but agree with others that the 19 also transforms petty differently. maybe its the 'shellformer' point i dislike about the 21. the legs are spindly and ahve the belly plates there on the hips which bugs me. The head has a muhcmore limited field of vision due to the design, the cockpit is more epposed etc etc....Its justa different animal, and one Im not as fond of. Not bad, just not for me.
kensei Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Still, like the SV-51 and the YF-19 I will not hesitate to get it, cause it's hip and interesting.
Sumdumgai Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 The -22 can eject the gunpod for use in Battroid mode, David. Max does it when he does his "I have to do everything myself" attack run in Episode 44, and goes into battroid mode. LOL 1/1 LowViz Lurker, I'll never be able to look at the VF-1 or VF-0 the same way again... Pin and nutsack dangling in fighter mode.
ruskiiVFaussie Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 (edited) I see Daves point on the 21, but agree with others that the 19 also transforms petty differently. maybe its the 'shellformer' point i dislike about the 21. the legs are spindly and ahve the belly plates there on the hips which bugs me. The head has a muhcmore limited field of vision due to the design, the cockpit is more epposed etc etc....Its justa different animal, and one Im not as fond of. Not bad, just not for me. With the limited head movement on the 21... it's irrelevant, everything is forced fed to Guld's brain via God knows how many sensory visions (cameras) all over the 21's frame. So i guess with the VF-22 and other variants of the 21... do they have more head movement for the head seeing how it's the conventional piloting method and you "really" need that extra vision? I'd gather everything inside the VF-22 is more like the YF-19's "full environment piloting cockpit" that shows everything bar the walls of the 22's cockpit using holographic window stuff... or something.. lol i'm looking for a more profound description of this but i don't know Japanese (to read my books), and i need to look more on the net i spose. Any help? Edited July 29, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie
Mr March Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 The YF-21 is a valk version of a Q-rau, what's not to like. Unless, of course, you don't like the Q-rau. Hell yeah! Preach it brotha!
Mr March Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 (edited) Hey Marchy, what book is that from? I don't have 'any' Macross Plus/7 artbooks (got everything else covered) Oops, guess I was late Yeah it appears in TIAS and the SK Macross Design Works (page 89). Either or is good, though the TIAS pictures are bigger. Edited July 29, 2007 by Mr March
Mr March Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 maybe its the 'shellformer' point i dislike about the 21. the legs are spindly and ahve the belly plates there on the hips which bugs me. The head has a muhcmore limited field of vision due to the design, the cockpit is more epposed etc etc....Its justa different animal, and one Im not as fond of. Not bad, just not for me. I actually really like these aspects of the mecha design. The hip holsters for the wings on the 19 and the bay doors for the legs on the 21 really free up the designs so they don't have to transform with those parts as solid pieces. They can remain outside the body and still look cool. I also really like that both the 19 and 21 look far more mechanical and less humanoid than the old Valkyries. I'm really bored with all these mecha that look like giant armored suits (Gundam is very guilty of this, but FMP and other mecha anime are just as bad). Some of the best mecha designs in the last ten years have been those that move away from strict humanoid conventions while still remaining humanoid. Such as the obviously emaciated EVAs from Neon Genesis Evangelion (despite my dislike for the show itself), or the highly mechanical YF-19/YF-21 from Macross Plus, or the disjointed mecha of Escaflowne. Look at older mecha with scale taken away, and they would look like humans in sci-fi armor suits if you didn't know better. When you look at the examples above with scale taken away, they are undeniably non-human robots because their dimensions couldn't accommodate a human form. And I love that. It's very hard to achieve that kind of design while still creating a humanoid robot form, but it's something at which Kawamori and other innovative mecha designers excel, IMO.
ruskiiVFaussie Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 Annnd the fact the YF-21/19 can change into Gerwalk and Fighter after Battroid is King. Thanks i'll look up my MDW book and review the 21's piccies. TIAS? That's the Macross Plus movie version artbook your talking about aren't you?
Mr March Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 So i guess with the VF-22 and other variants of the 21... do they have more head movement for the head seeing how it's the conventional piloting method and you "really" need that extra vision? All the Valkyries rely on virtual environment cameras, way back to the VF-0 and VF-1. They use cameras to create exterior views on large internal flat screen monitors for battroid mode. As far as I know, the use of cameras only increases in the later Valkyries. The YF-19/YF-21 and the VF-19, VF-17, VF-22 et cetera all use what the compendium calls wrap-around imaging monitor screens which would be camera based. Rather than just the usual large monitors, large sections of the cockpit are simply walls of monitors, which would require a lot of cameras. TIAS? That's the Macross Plus movie version artbook your talking about aren't you? Yeah, that's the one. This Is Animation the Select: Macross Plus Movie Edition. Pages 40-43 cover the YF-21 (cockpit pictures are on 42, like Jedi Knight said). Here's some big pictures of the VF-22 Battroid Mode Cockpit:
ruskiiVFaussie Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 Awesome! Thanks again Marchy. I will be getting this book once i see it up for sale.
eugimon Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 hmm, makes me wonder if the yf-21 will have the flipping cockpit gimmick like the VF-0? Since the yf-21 actually leaves the canopy exposed in battroid, it would be nice to see guld's little face staring back at me and not staring at the ground.
David Hingtgen Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 The YF-21 has tiny little mini-heatshields that cover each "window" in the canopy individually in battroid mode. Though I seriously doubt we'll see THAT at 1/60 scale!
eugimon Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 The YF-21 has tiny little mini-heatshields that cover each "window" in the canopy individually in battroid mode. Though I seriously doubt we'll see THAT at 1/60 scale! does it? I know the vf-22 has the little heat shields since the ports are larger, but I thought the yf-21 left them open. In anycase, I agree that we won't be seeing the shields, so bring on the rotating seat gimmick.
Mr March Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 does it? I know the vf-22 has the little heat shields since the ports are larger, but I thought the yf-21 left them open. This is not the best picture, but it does clearly show the YF-21's cockpit windows are covered by solid blue hull, which means there are small heat shields.
kensei Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 If the cockpit didn't open, we could have a rotating ball that has a heatshield on one half and a clear cockpit side on the other. Won't be able to see much detail though.
PsYcHoDyNaMiX Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 For the heatshield covers... I'd say they use some kind of prism or color reflective material for the mini windows, so at certain angles it'll change colors from clear to blue and back.
Sumdumgai Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 If the cockpit didn't open, we could have a rotating ball that has a heatshield on one half and a clear cockpit side on the other. Won't be able to see much detail though. That's the idea that immediately popped into my head. The other ideas I had were unrealistic. I just hope they don't do a heathshield like on the 1/72 VF-11B. That damned thing cracked on me when I tried cutting it free of the plastic it was formed with. Pissed me off since both got messed up.
kensei Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 That's the idea that immediately popped into my head. The other ideas I had were unrealistic. I just hope they don't do a heathshield like on the 1/72 VF-11B. That damned thing cracked on me when I tried cutting it free of the plastic it was formed with. Pissed me off since both got messed up. Nah I reckon they won't. That was one of the worst ideas for a heatshield, ever.
PsYcHoDyNaMiX Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 (edited) Which one? The VF-11 one? Edited July 29, 2007 by PsYcHoDyNaMiX
eugimon Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 This is not the best picture, but it does clearly show the YF-21's cockpit windows are covered by solid blue hull, which means there are small heat shields. ah, so they are. Thanks for the clarification.
Sumdumgai Posted July 30, 2007 Posted July 30, 2007 Heh, I was just looking through the Macross Mecha Design book. It's funny looking at how the gunpods are attached to the YF-21 in fighter mode. I say it's pretty definite they'll attach by magnets for the toy. It looks really funny to me though, like the YF-21 has cancer or some kind of growth on its belly. I hope the hands aren't push-on like the old one. I remember reading that the 1/72 21FP version was a pain in the @ss to get the hands on and off of.
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