FAST pack for yf-19

[Shishigami]

I know in the real world FAST packs are fuel tanks that conform to the ship thus eliminating drag and freeing hard ports. My questions are

1) I thought Valks used Thermo Nuclear Engines, thus they wouldn’t need fuel...

2) What purpose does those gray things on the shoulders of the 19 server? They seem to get in the way of the shoulder thrusters without providing any benefit, except that the look pretty cool

[sketchley]

Correction: real-world FAST packs provide both additional fuel and sensor capabilities (Fuel and Sensor Tactical packs).

1) Acceleration. The thermo nuclear engines have a finite supply of reactant (fuel), and the performance abilities of the engines allow for (at least until the AVF project) a "limited" acceleration curve. Both FAST packs and thermonuclear engines need fuel.

VF-1 standard engines: 11,500 kg [x g] class (23,000 kg [x g] in overboost); FAST packs: 120,000 kg [x g] class (for 150 seconds at maximum thrust)

From: http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati.../vf1/index.html

2) Aside from additional armour protection (possibly specifically for the shoulder thrusters), I believe that they contain additional reactant (fuel).

[Mr March]

Fusion is not a limitless power source. Fusion reactors, as we understand them, still require fuel (reactant). The difference is that you get far more energy far more efficiently with fusion. The energy produced by fusion per unit of fuel mass is far above any other source other known fuel-consuming energy source. But you still need fuel, however little that may be.

However, on any practical scale the variable fighters probably carry enough reactant to operate for several months or possibly even a year before requiring more reactant. In that case, it's most likely that the extra fuel in FAST packs are for the vernier thrusters, not the main engines. Particularly in space active maneuvering requires constant use of verniers thrusters and eventually they run out of fuel.

As far as I am aware, the official literature states the shoulder/dorsal nacelle FAST packs are propellant tanks. Given that these packs already swivel at least 90 degrees from fighter to battroid mode, I assume they can just swivel back upwards when the shoulder vernier thrusters are fired.

[JB0]

However, on any practical scale the variable fighters probably carry enough reactant to operate for several months or possibly even a year before requiring more reactant. In that case, it's most likely that the extra fuel in FAST packs are for the vernier thrusters, not the main engines. Particularly in space active maneuvering requires constant use of verniers thrusters and eventually they run out of fuel.

What are the main engines using for propellant? Belching spent fusion fuel out the back won't generate very much kick.

I would assume the main engines require a reaction mass just like the verniers do.

[Mr March]

What are the main engines using for propellant? Belching spent fusion fuel out the back won't generate very much kick.

I would assume the main engines require a reaction mass just like the verniers do.

I just assumed that the valkyries are utilizing a variation of an ion drive since they use very little reaction mass. Conventional power sources can only operate low velocity ion drives because of the high power requirements. But with OverTechnology-style fusion and OverTechnology light weight construction, even variable fighter based engines produce enormous levels of power and are very light weight. Thus you'd have an engine that can acheive very high velocity through electromagnetic acceleration but uses hardly any reaction mass. Does this make sense or am I getting it wrong?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

Besides the "coolness factor" (of which I don't subscribe with respect to the 19 & 21), I don't see how FAST Packs actually benefit either the YF-19 or the YF-21?

Both have superior acceleration and space flight capabilities and if, as March says, the reactant lasts for months as opposed to hours then conforming fuel tanks are essentially a waste of materials.

The primary role of the FAST packs on the VF-1s and VF-11s respectively are for short distance high powered combat thrust and weapons systems augmentation.

The VF-19 and VF-22 series of fighters are nearly self contained units requiring very little in the areas of augmentation it appears.

If the packs sole purpose is to provide additional sensor or ECM packages, then their small size would make sense, but as already stated if the fuel consumption is minimal then the need for conforming tanks is not necessary.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Zinjo

[eugimon]

I just assumed that the valkyries are utilizing a variation of an ion drive since they use very little reaction mass. Conventional power sources can only operate low velocity ion drives because of the high power requirements. But with OverTechnology-style fusion and OverTechnology light weight construction, even variable fighter based engines produce enormous levels of power and are very light weight. Thus you'd have an engine that can acheive very high velocity through electromagnetic acceleration but uses hardly any reaction mass. Does this make sense or am I getting it wrong?

you still have to have reaction mass, and it have a suitable kick to it to be able to push a valk around. While ion engines are very efficient, at least with real world technology, they're very weak, so spacecraft powered by it are pretty slow.

[Mr March]

you still have to have reaction mass, and it have a suitable kick to it to be able to push a valk around. While ion engines are very efficient, at least with real world technology, they're very weak, so spacecraft powered by it are pretty slow.

I agree that conventional ion engines are slow. But didn't I just address why the differences would make them practical in the Macross universe? Conventional ion engines use heavy, low-power conventional power sources for low velocity flight, but the advantage of electromagnetic propulsion is efficient use of reactant mass. In the Macross universe, OverTechnology has given humanity a style of fusion generator that is light weight and produces an incredible amount of power with efficiency even beyond real world fusion (according to the compendium). With such a power source, ion engines could be built that can produce high velocity thrust and still retain incredible reactant mass efficiency. Thus allowing them to propel fighters and other space craft at significant velocities using very little fuel.

Macross would by no means be unique in this matter. The vast majority of science fiction from Star Wars to Babylon 5 has made use of the fictional pairing of ion drives/fusion generators as a plausible futuristic form of space flight propulsion. I'm assuming that since Macross uses fusion fiction, they probably are using an ion drive variation or similar kind of technology. In which case the valkyries need very little fuel to operate. The FAST packs would probably be used for vernier thrusters and to supply extra reactant for long distance operations, since space operations cover such a vast area.

[eugimon]

the problem isn't the power burning the ion engine, it's the fact that ions have such low mass. If you can burn an ion engine long enough, you get good velocity, it's just with such low mass, your rate of acceleration is very slow. I don't think it's a question of the impossibility of a valk's power plant, just the real constraint of how much an ion can actually push.

I look at ion engines in sci-fi as basically a real world name for a completely mystery technology. Kind of how plasma is treated in star trek. real world phenomona, but the way ST depicts it, completely contrary to how it really reacts.

Edited July 19, 2007 by eugimon

[Mr March]

Besides the "coolness factor" (of which I don't subscribe with respect to the 19 & 21), I don't see how FAST Packs actually benefit either the YF-19 or the YF-21?

If the packs sole purpose is to provide additional sensor or ECM packages, then their small size would make sense, but as already stated if the fuel consumption is minimal then the need for conforming tanks is not necessary.

But wouldn't the YF-19/21 still benefit from FAST Packs? The FAST pack sets on the YF-19/YF-21 are significantly smaller than those of past generation variable fighters, most likely because these new fighters are so much more efficient for space flight already (as you surmised). The official literature does indeed confirm the two dorsal FAST Packs on the YF-19 are propellant tanks, so it's likely they are used for either vernier thrusters or long range additional fuel. But becuase the YF-19/YF-21 are so fuel efficient as it is, they require very little additional "long-range" fuel and so, much smaller FAST packs. Though Valkyries are likely very fuel efficient, they still require some fuel, no matter how small that may be, comparitively speaking. So the YF-19/21 would still benefit from FAST Packs for various mission profiles, but rely on them much less than previous variable fighters.

[Mr March]

the problem isn't the power burning the ion engine, it's the fact that ions have such low mass. If you can burn an ion engine long enough, you get good velocity, it's just with such low mass, your rate of acceleration is very slow. I don't think it's a question of the impossibility of a valk's power plant, just the real constraint of how much an ion can actually push.

Yes, I understand that. But ion drives powered by superior high-power generators burn more reactant in significantly shorter time and produce that much more thrust. Yes, ions are low mass but with enough power to expel more of them quickly and efficiently, you get high velocity thrust over a short period of time. Yes, far more reactant is consumed much faster than compared to low-power, low-velocity ion drives, but as I understand it the ratio of thrust-to-mass efficiency does not change until you get into significant fractions of the speed of light or significant vehicle mass. So reasonably scaled up ion drives should still enjoy superior thrust-to-mass ratios. Perhaps I'm understanding the concepts incorrectly (quite possible, since I'm not an expert). I know this is just all speculation, but I was under the impression this combination would theoretically work.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Mr March

[eugimon]

Yes, I understand that. But ion drives powered by superior high-power generators burn more reactant in significantly shorter time and produce that much more thrust. Yes, ions are low mass but with enough power to expel more of them quickly and efficiently, you get high velocity thrust over a short period of time. Yes, far more reactant is consumed much faster than compared to low-power, low-velocity ion drives, but as I understand it the ratio of thrust-to-mass efficiency does not change until you get into significant fractions of the speed of light or significant vehicle mass. So reasonably scaled up ion drives should still enjoy superior thrust-to-mass ratios. Perhaps I'm understanding the concepts incorrectly (quite possible, since I'm not an expert). I know this is just all speculation, but I was under the impression this combination would theoretically work.

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-16769.html

The writer "enigma" actually answers this question, a poster asks if an ion engine would produce more thrust if you had a 2500watt power supply, his answer:

"Ion engines work by accelerating ions in a magnetic or electrical field. You are limited in the rate of fuel depletion by the nature of the ions. If you try to push more out, the ions will interfere with each other. If you increase the voltage, you'll get arcing inside the machine."

granted, 2500watts is a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the 650 MW that a VF-1 produces, but it's not a question of power, but a question of the nature of ions.

Edited July 19, 2007 by eugimon

[sketchley]

VF engines in an atmosphere = VERY effecient (only reactant used is to power the engines, thrust comes from the atmosphere being heated by the engine and exiting.)

VF engines in space = VERY inefficent (reactant is used to both power the engines and get thrown out the rear of the engine to create thrust.)

The AVF have uber powerful engines, in an atmosphere. Out in space, they have cooling problems, and cannot provide as much thrust as when in an atmosphere. Nevertheless, even the AVF gets the additional transatmospheric scramjet (I think that's the translation) FAST packs in Macross 7.

[Mr March]

Ah, interesting link. Thanks eugimon. That makes much more sense. Like you said, this particular sci-fi technology pairing is just clever name dropping. Well then, it must be some other type of engine they use in Macross. And Kawamori and co. are probably wisely vague on the subject

Edited July 19, 2007 by Mr March

[David Hingtgen]

Sketchley has a really good point IMHO. Jet engines work by moving AIR (many people confuse "moving air" with "needing oxygen for combustion"). In space--no air=no jet engines. Thus a valk has to use a different mode/method of operation. It can still use its "jet" engines, but they sure won't work as well or even in the same manner as they do in an atmosphere. (There are plenty of jet engines out there that have multiple modes of operation, or even engines which are combinations of different types of engines, with a jet usually at the core)

[Nied]

I doubt Valkyries operate on an ion engine pricinpal since while they are know to be extremely efficient, they don't put out a lot of thrust and thus wouldn't be a good engine choice for a high performance fighter (and really wouldn't be of any use in an atmosphere). From their description I always thought that thurmonuclear turbines were rather like a traditional jet engine: air gets sucked in, is rapidly heated and expands, and goes out the back really fast. The only differenece is that a Thurmonuclear trubine uses the heat from a fusion reactor instead of burning kerosene (the whole "unlimited range in atmosphere" thing implies that the fusion reactors themselves are fueled with air as well). In space they'd need to replace air with some kind of reaction mass that they'd need to lug around with them and spray into the engines to convert into thrust. As sketchley says it's pretty inefficient but also puts out a lot more thrust than the alternatives. Having extra reaction mass gives you one of two advantages 1.You can go further or 2.You can go faster. So there's one reasont to have FAST packs on the YF-19 and -21. In addition to that the fusion reactors in the engines of both AVFs get so hot that they can't suck in enough air to keep it from overheating in an atmosphere (at least according to the Compendium), and thus the on board computer limits the thrust of the engines to keep them for overheating. It's possible that the extra fuel carried around in the FAST packs is enough to keep the engines cool and allow them to run at full power.

[Graham]

Besides the "coolness factor" (of which I don't subscribe with respect to the 19 & 21), I don't see how FAST Packs actually benefit either the YF-19 or the YF-21?

Extra weapons. Both of the YF-19's leg FAST packs carry additional twin micro missile lanchers.

The YF-21's belly FAST packs also both have an extra twin micro-missile launcher.

Graham

[Zinjo]

The AVF have uber powerful engines, in an atmosphere. Out in space, they have cooling problems, and cannot provide as much thrust as when in an atmosphere.

THAT has always puzzled me. How is it in space, where is it on average 2 K which is pretty damn cold, that the engines would have a tendency to overheat? Granted their is very little atmosphere, however there is some (not enough for human existence) that would serve to cool the reaction in the near absolute cold of space. If anything, the engines should be able to run at near capacity.

As for vernier thrust, that would not utilze nearly as much reactant as the main engines, since all those thrusters do is adjust attitude, pitch and yaw. Once the fighter is oriented in the new direction, the pilot hits his main engines and the fighter travels in the new direction.

BSG does a fairly good representation of space fighter combat, which woud be similar to how the VF pilots would need to fight.

[Knight26]

Most likely the valkyrie's engines act like plasma engines in space, check the atomic rocket site and look up torch ships.

[Nied]

THAT has always puzzled me. How is it in space, where is it on average 2 K which is pretty damn cold, that the engines would have a tendency to overheat? Granted their is very little atmosphere, however there is some (not enough for human existence) that would serve to cool the reaction in the near absolute cold of space. If anything, the engines should be able to run at near capacity.

According to the compendium it's the other way around the engines can overheat in an atmosphere, they can only reach thier maximum thrust in space. I would imagine that this would have less to do with the temperature in space (which while it averages 2 degrees Kelivin in practice it varies widely depending on where you are), and more to do with the fact that they would be using liquids or solids (in powdered form) as reaction mass. Vaporizing material would draw away far more heat than just heating an already reletively warm gas.

[sketchley]

According to the compendium it's the other way around the engines can overheat in an atmosphere, they can only reach thier maximum thrust in space. I would imagine that this would have less to do with the temperature in space (which while it averages 2 degrees Kelivin in practice it varies widely depending on where you are), and more to do with the fact that they would be using liquids or solids (in powdered form) as reaction mass. Vaporizing material would draw away far more heat than just heating an already reletively warm gas.

In atmosphere, the engines use air as coolant/propellant, but due to problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core) the maximum thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of thrust in space.

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...yf19/index.html

I've always interpreted that line as "in space, the speed is 40 to 60% of that in atmosphere". My reasons are mostly on sentence parsing (I would really like to know the specific books and page numbers Egan Loo references in the creation of his stats, as only the source Japanese will truly clear this up,) as well as a little bit on what I remember from a text by Tom Clancy on jet fighers.

[eugimon]

THAT has always puzzled me. How is it in space, where is it on average 2 K which is pretty damn cold, that the engines would have a tendency to overheat? Granted their is very little atmosphere, however there is some (not enough for human existence) that would serve to cool the reaction in the near absolute cold of space. If anything, the engines should be able to run at near capacity.

As for vernier thrust, that would not utilze nearly as much reactant as the main engines, since all those thrusters do is adjust attitude, pitch and yaw. Once the fighter is oriented in the new direction, the pilot hits his main engines and the fighter travels in the new direction.

BSG does a fairly good representation of space fighter combat, which woud be similar to how the VF pilots would need to fight.

space is cold, but it has basically no density, so you're not able to conduct heat. This is the reason hot water cooks faster than hot air. Water is more dense and is able to retain much more energy than air, which is less dense. This means in space, you're not able to control temperature through conduction, which means technology like heat sinks are worthless. Heat in space must be dealt with, primarily through radiation.

You also need to consider, that because there's no atmosphere or other medium to diffuse heat, when you're sunlight, the part of the vessel hitting the sun gets VERY hot while the parts in space would be very cold. This means less the farther you get from a star, but it would be an issue if you were fighting around the Earth.

[Zinjo]

You also need to consider, that because there's no atmosphere or other medium to diffuse heat, when you're sunlight, the part of the vessel hitting the sun gets VERY hot while the parts in space would be very cold. This means less the farther you get from a star, but it would be an issue if you were fighting around the Earth.

That is actually a misnomer, there is an atmosphere in space, albeit extremely thin and not friendly to human life, since it is composed of various spacial gases floating about...

[eugimon]

That is actually a misnomer, there is an atmosphere in space, albeit extremely thin and not friendly to human life, since it is composed of various spacial gases floating about...

no, there are gas molecules in space. but they are so few in density as to be practically negligible and for the purposes of conducting heat, completely worthless.

The word atmosphere has very specific usage. 1, it means the body of gasses surrounding a planet or celestial body. The other usage that would be applicable to our conversation would be the physics definition, which is: A unit of pressure equal to the air pressure at sea level. It equals the amount of pressure that will support a column of mercury 760 millimeters high at 0 degrees Celsius under standard gravity, or 14.7 pounds per square inch (1.01325 × 105 pascals).

The amount of gas molecules in space are so few and far between, they exert no measurable pressure, so your usage still fails the physics definition of atmosphere.

Again, space is for all practical purposes a vacuum. It does not conduct heat.

[mechaninac]

That is actually a misnomer, there is an atmosphere in space, albeit extremely thin and not friendly to human life, since it is composed of various spacial gases floating about...

You're right, space is not a perfect vacuum; but for all intents and purposes, a few thousand atoms with a few dozen molecules per cubic meter do not an atmosphere make. With that in mind, Eugimon's statement is right on the money.

Edited July 20, 2007 by mechaninac

[Nied]

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...yf19/index.html

I've always interpreted that line as "in space, the speed is 40 to 60% of that in atmosphere". My reasons are mostly on sentence parsing (I would really like to know the specific books and page numbers Egan Loo references in the creation of his stats, as only the source Japanese will truly clear this up,) as well as a little bit on what I remember from a text by Tom Clancy on jet fighers.

It's worded a little in-exactly but right before the seciont you quoted there's this:

Two 42700 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere; 67500 [64700] kg [x g] class in space)

So the engines are rated at 42700 kg in the atmosphere and 67500 kg in space. Note that's a semi colon after "maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere."

[sketchley]

Ehh? Well, that's a lot simplier than having the source text pointed out. Thanks.

I'll revise my original statement:

VF engines in an atmosphere = VERY effecient with fuel, inefficient with heat.

VF engines in space = VERY inefficent with fuel, extremely efficient with heat.

The additional transatmospheric scramjet (I think that's the translation) FAST packs, as seen in Macross 7, are for compensating the reduced engine performance in an atmosphere, in addition to more munitions.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Extra weapons. Both of the YF-19's leg FAST packs carry additional twin micro missile lanchers.

The YF-21's belly FAST packs also both have an extra twin micro-missile launcher.

Graham

And the long range missile (per FP) that he launched at Guld was?

I always thought, that the FP's were only to provide vernier thrusts to benefit space travel/combat and

to provide extra armor. Remember in DYRL? the Valks getting into position with the FP's Strike Packs.

The extra armor is a no brainer. Micro missiles launchers? I need to re-watch.

It's got room for it of course, well, a big arse missile needs the accomodation as well....

Edited July 21, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Mr March]

The YF-19 has internal pallets in the engines/lower legs that can store various types of missiles. In Macross Plus, the two big missiles the YF-19 launches at the YF-21 appear to come from the internal leg bays, which is why the FAST packs in those sections lift to allow missile egress. Shortly thereafter the YF-19 is shown firing micro-missiles in Battroid mode from the leg packs, so I think it's safe to assume this much. Grebo Guru did an exhaustive analysis of this which pretty much stands as the most detailed description of the Macross Plus fight that I've ever seen.

All the Valkyries have vernier thrusters built as part of the standard designs and can function in space without FAST Packs just as well. All the official statistics list various vernier thrusters and many drawings specifically show the vernier thrusters on various sections of the hull.

To my mind, any protection from the FAST Packs are negligible. The packs are not placed anywhere along the hull that would provide significant protection from the typical angles of fire to which a variable fighter would be subjected. The official literature states the packs enhance performance of the valkyries beyond an atmosphere (excluding the cases of the YF-19/21 and VF-17 specific sets), typically providing larger thrusters for maneuvering, more weapons and more fuel for longer operations in the vast distances of space. I suppose smart pilots can use the ejection systems of the FAST packs to act as one-time makeshift reactive armor, but that certainly isn't a design feature.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

The YF-19 has internal pallets in the engines/lower legs that can store various types of missiles.

The VF-22 also has 3 internal pallets. With the VF-19P, the internal pallets have been replaced by a pair of dog-fight missile launchers (presumably to not give the Zolans excessive military capabilities. Limited FAST packs are also seen mounted on their VF-5000G.) Other VFs have internal pallets (VF-17, some of the Super Parts for the VF-11) too.

The official literature states the packs enhance performance of the valkyries beyond an atmosphere (excluding the cases of the YF-19/21 and VF-17 specific sets)

The VF-22S, VF-11C, VF-11D Kai, VF-19, VF-5000G and VF-3C Kai all have "FAST packs" that are useable both in atmosphere and space.

The reason why I put FAST packs in quotes is because they are not referred to as FAST packs, but as Transatmospheric** Super Parts (22 & 11D kai), Atmospheric Super Parts* (VF-11C), Transatmospheric** Booster (VF-19), Transatmospheric** Booster Pack (VF-5000G. Though, there is a rough design of Transatmospheric** Super Parts for the VF-5000 (unclear if it is all models or only the G) as well), and Transatmospheric Boosters for the VF-3C.)

The VF-17's additions are named Super Packs (スーパーパック). From the translations I have done, no VF designed after Macross Plus (placing Macross Plus before Macross 7 here) have had FAST packs. Even the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus has Super Parts.

*Lower page 121 of "Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works". These are the exception, since they only operate in an atmosphere.

** This is my translation of 大気圏内外両用. More literally, it'd be 'atmosphere inside and outside dual use'. Thus transatmospheric.

Edited July 22, 2007 by sketchley

[Mr March]

Oh no!

I wasn’t really going for an exhaustive list, just answering the question while noting exceptions exist. But now this brings up another question: if there is indeed a difference between FAST Packs and Super Parts/Packs, was there a change in nomenclature between the SDFM-era versus the Mac+/Mac7-era? Designations for the VF-1 use terms like “FAST Pack” and “Super” interchangeably and those units were space only.

I suppose I’m also thrown off by the common usage of the terms on the Macross Compendium and a desire to create readable entries for the M3. I know the compendium isn’t foolproof (Fulbtzs-Berrentzs debut anyone?), but I do rely on it as the definitive english work on the subject. This then raises another possibility; are the literal terms/translations really to be taken literally? Super Part may be more correct, but are these units not all functionally FAST packs anyway? Naturally, I’d love to be as accurate as possible, but there’s also much to be said for concise information across multiple sections/entries. The first time FAST Pack is defined, the reader comprehends. If I then write “Transatmospheric FAST Pack” for the YF-19, it’s easy to understand rather than throwing off the reader with “Super Parts.” Sure we could go FAST Pack=Space Only, Super Part=All Environ, but then we have Super Pack. As well as the added confusion that real world FAST Packs are not space only

Then comes the last question: is there any order of canon for my books? If my Macross Perfect Memory book says one thing, but my Shoji Kawamori Design Works book says another, which book takes precedence? Sure I’m inclined to use MPM, but is there any way to know for sure?

Edited July 22, 2007 by Mr March

[ruskiiVFaussie]

I'm gonna re-watch and see how the long-range missiles pop out of the leg.

I always thought they popped from underneath the Lep FPs but it's been a long time since i watched.

I can't understand you saying that they aren't/not useful for extra armor (along the legs) though...

[sketchley]

Oh no!

I wasn’t really going for an exhaustive list, just answering the question while noting exceptions exist.

Agreed. However, it is difficult for a particular poster to be vague and specific in different threads.

But now this brings up another question: if there is indeed a difference between FAST Packs and Super Parts/Packs, was there a change in nomenclature between the SDFM-era versus the Mac+/Mac7-era? Designations for the VF-1 use terms like “FAST Pack” and “Super” interchangeably and those units were space only.

Good questions. The only answers that I can come up with are that Shoji Kawamori is a stickler for real world details. As such, he most likely uses the real world definition of FAST packs. In terms of VFs, that would apply only to the engine nacelle additions, as they most closely resemble the real world definition in function, shape, and design. This also justifies and explains why there has been a steady shift to Super Parts and Super Packs. One other piece of trivia is that the specific names for this extra parts disappear after DYRL. (Eg. NP-BP-01. Though, in this particular case, the number only refers to the engine and fuel part, as the forward weapon (HMMP-02 and RO-X2A) should be considered as supplemental and (apparently rapidly) exchangable parts to the base unit.)

As near as I can determine, the split is Macross Plus and 7. I think it's due to Macross Plus being marketed towards fans from SDFM and DYRL, whereas Macross 7 was marketed towards a younger audience, new to Macross.

This then raises another possibility; are the literal terms/translations really to be taken literally?

Yes, and in some cases no. In some of the cases, the words used are directly taken from English (スーパーパック). In other cases, there are non-English words used that are translated, and may or may not need some "tweeking" to better fit into both Macross (specifically) and English (in general) common usage. In some rare cases, the creators of Macross have demanded that specific non-literal translations be used, despite the requested word having little or nothing to do with the original Japanese (Supervision Army vs. Inspection Army.) I am most leery of this last one, as non-native speakers of English don't tend to have the same understanding of English. (Everyone knows of the Bubble Economy, right? One Japanese economist recently tried to coin the term Froth Economy. Froth being many little bubbles. However, I understand the word as meaning more than gas contained within a membrane. Think dog frothing at the mouth.)

Anyhow... the safest bet is the literal translation, as many people are reading and translating the same material. There's commonality and less likelihood of people claiming a mistranslation in the future.

Super Part may be more correct, but are these units not all functionally FAST packs anyway?

On the one hand, they may not fit the real world definition. On the other hand, it may be a deliberate "dumbing down" of the technical aspects to make it more accesable to the consumer. There may also be a difference that hasn't been translated, or defined and written down by Shoji Kawamori. (I'm basing the definition of FAST as Fuel and Sensor Tactical Packs. The more recent packs and parts don't (appear) to have any sensor capabilities. But that's just my thoughts.)

The first time FAST Pack is defined, the reader comprehends. If I then write “Transatmospheric FAST Pack” for the YF-19, it’s easy to understand rather than throwing off the reader with “Super Parts.” Sure we could go FAST Pack=Space Only, Super Part=All Environ, but then we have Super Pack.

Try establishing a common category (additional parts or equipment) and then add the translated names within the category with whatever technical information is available.

Also, the YF-19 has FAST packs, and the VF-19 has the Transatmospheric Booster(s). I'd go with those being both their specific names as well as describing their function.

is there any order of canon for my books? If my Macross Perfect Memory book says one thing, but my Shoji Kawamori Design Works book says another, which book takes precedence? Sure I’m inclined to use MPM, but is there any way to know for sure?

I'd go with what's newer = more precedence. Afterall, MPM takes precedence over the TIA The Select: SDF:M, and TIA The Select: DYRL takes precedence over MPM. Shoji Kawamori, or Studio Nue, or Big West, tend to reveal different (and oft exclusive) bits and pieces as time goes by. I only noticed the rapid exchangeablity of the HMMP-02 and RO-X2A from a combination of Tenjin Hidetaka Valkyries and Kawamori Shoji Design Works; and they are the latest published books on Macross to date. (Not counting that NHK review of DYRL that was released a couple of months ago. Nothing new aside from some staff interviews.)

[sketchley]

I can't understand you saying that they aren't/not useful for extra armor (along the legs) though...

Perhaps it's better to think of them as gas tanks. There is armour on them, but it is to prevent the gas within the tank from exploding when the VF is hit. Would you use a gas tank as a shield?

[Mr March]

Good questions... *snip*

Ah, so FAST Packs worked well as appropriate real robot terminology in early Macross and just happen to be appropriate for the YF-19/21 in Macross Plus. When space operations became more pronounced in the action, like the VF-11 in Mac+ or the space battles of Mac7, they decided to differentiate using the Super moniker from the old VF-1 series. Thus, Super Parts/Super Packs.

I suppose if the newer books add more detail not found in the older books, that’s a bonus. Being unable to translate them en masse, I’ve been content with translating just bits and pieces that add detail. I’ve been wary of superceding anything stated on the Macross Compendium unless I know for certain. I think overall the use of Super Part/Super Pack is probably more useful than not. I have no problem using Super Parts or Super Packs in the descriptions. I’ll just make sure to add some notes for reading clarity (especially in a new section opening up next update).

So, as I understand it, we have:

• VF-1 Super = FAST Packs (space only)
• VF-11B and C = Super Parts (space only)
• VF-11C = Atmospheric Super Parts (the pointy ones on page 121)
• VF-11D Kai = Super Parts (space and atmosphere)
• VF-17 = Super Packs (space and atmosphere)
• YF-19/21= FAST Packs (space and atmosphere)
• Ghost X-9 = Super Parts (space and atmosphere)
• VF-19 = Trans-atmospheric Booster
• VF-22S = Super Parts (space and atmosphere)
• VF-5000 = Trans-atmospheric Booster Pack (with Super Parts in rough page 129)
• VF-3C = Trans-atmospheric Booster