Mospeada Podcast

[VF5SS]

http://destroyallpodcastsdx.com/

Please enjoy.

[eugimon]

bacronym! hahaha awesome.

[jenius]

Cool podcast... most everything sounds pretty right on. I think calling the show a Macross rip-off is a bit harsh although I could definitely see the Legioss as a Valk rip-off. While Mospeada is definitely in a similar vein the Inbit are nothing like the Zents, Minmay's singing has an entirely different effect from Yellow's, the ride armor is unlike any Macross design, I'd say the two shows have entirely different feels to them (Macross being more involved). The podcast hints at Batra's blue eye but I think it would have been cool to point out that Batra's evolution is one of those few elements that does actually get carried out over the span of several episodes rather than being nicely encapsulated into one. One other point, the Refless is not a 9' tall woman in the end, she's still transparent, she's just appearing to the group as a human (of sorts). It goes to that whole Inbit collective consciousness thing Stig realizes when he sees all the Inbit being killed in space. Considering how long the podcast was, I could see where packing in anything else might have been impossible anyway. In Animefriend's defense, there work in Mospeada is clearly much better than it was in Macross (albeit still mediocre).

[VF5SS]

As far as Mospeada being a Macross ripoff, I think the proof is in the show. We have Tri-form fighters, a knock off Itano circus, Idol singers, the power of love conquering the aliens, etc. Despite the intentions of Shinji Aramaki and his Artland crew, it's pretty clear that Tatsunoko and Takatoku (for the brief time they were involved) wanted Mospeada to be another Macross. Roger even pointed out that there were some pre-production Destroid like designs that make Mospeada seem like even more of a ripoff.

[jenius]

Meh, I think we just have a different opinion of what constitutes a rip-off. While I would never argue that Mospeada wasn't meant to cash-in on the success of Macross by using a formula similar to Macross I would definitely say it falls short of being a rip-off. For me it's like saying all hair bands ever did in the 80s was rip each other off where some would just say they were in the same genre. For me, if Mospeada truly was just a Macross rip-off it could never be lumped together with the original in what became Robotech because everyone would just feel like they were watching a crappier rendition of the first chapter. I've seen lots of discussions on Robotech and not once have I read or heard someone say they felt TNG was just some sloppy rehash of TMS. Obviously it's similar enough to be lumped into Robotech, but a rip-off? Well, if it's a rip-off why wasn't that term thrown around during the Southern Cross podcast? Aliens attack humans, tri-mode vehicles are deployed to save the day, aliens and humans fall in love, music plays some sort of role. Same genre or rip off? Southern Cross has destroids... but they don't look nearly as cool as the unused designs for Mospeada. Macross obviously had a huge influence on many shows after it, and toy manufacturers obviously were looking for a similar cash-in, but just lumping in everything that follows it as a rip-off implies its devoid of new innovation or original thought.

[Ginrai]

Maybe because Southern Cross is THE SUPER DIMENSION Cavalry Southern Cross and we are talking about THE SUPER DIMENSION Fortress Macross. But beyond that, we did say that the Logan was an ugly, crappy Valkyrie ripoff, but the Spartas and Auroran are pretty different from the Valkyries, and Musicia hardly counts as an idol singer, and Southern Cross is about a spunky blonde bimbo tank driver who disobeys orders all the time, and Macross is about an emo jet pilot dude who gets shot down all the time? Mospeada is much more similar to Macross than Southern Cross is.

[eugimon]

plot wise, SC is more similar to SDFM than Mospeada is to SDFM.

in SDFM and Macross, aliens attack world and generally want to wreck the the place for the humans. In Mospeada, humans have already trashed the planet and the aliens come in and see a fixer upper. And the native humans, for the most part, don't really have a problem with the aliens, who, don't really mind the humans. It's not until more humans come and start lobbing nukes and invading the place do we see conflict.

also, in Mospeada, the aliens just get up and leave, unlike in macross where we find out the aliens aren't so alien after all.

IMO, the similarities between Macross and Mospeada are merely superficial. the actual characters and story beats are pretty different.

[Phyrox]

Besides some design similarities, Mospeada doesn't seem much like Macross at all. The show, besides dealing with an Alien invasion, is quite different in feel, scope, characterization, and direction.

It is a stretch to call it a Macross rip-off.

[Ginrai]

I don't feel like arguing with you. Maybe I will reply at a later date on the podcast.

[Mog]

A Macross rip-off?

So, where's Macross' version of the Tread?

I won't deny that there are similarities between the two shows.

But even their two lead characters are radically different. Yes, both have a strong sense of duty. But Hik' has more of the standard "coming of age" story arc, while Stick's arc is more about a man coming to terms with his various losses.

[eugimon]

the only macross rip-off I can think of, is macross II.

muahahaha.

[jenius]

So, where's Macross' version of the Tread?

While not transformable, there actually is a vehicle similar to the Tread in Macross. It's the big triple booster mechanism the Valk needs to launch in to reach orbit shown in the post Rain of Death episodes.

[Ginrai]

Ray = Hikaru, not Stick.

[jenius]

Really? I guess they both had dream sequences... I'm not too sure on how else they're related.

[eugimon]

they had brown hair and were both kinda goofy dorks. It's such a unique combination, I'm surprised you didn't see it before.

[danth]

I think when you call something a rip-off, you're making a value judgment. You're saying that all of it's features are stolen, and it doesn't have any original, quality content.

I do think Mospeada lifted a lot from Macross: fighting aliens, transforming airplanes, an idol singer, etc. But I forgive Mospeada for any theft because it has TRANSFORMING MOTORCYCLES. And the Legioss and Tread are wonderful designs, as well as the Inbit.

Hell, if Mospeada hadn't stolen transforming robots and alien invaders from Macross, I wouldn't like it so much.

[eugimon]

I think when you call something a rip-off, you're making a value judgment. You're saying that all of it's features are stolen, and it doesn't have any original, quality content.

I do think Mospeada lifted a lot from Macross: fighting aliens, transforming airplanes, an idol singer, etc. But I forgive Mospeada for any theft because it has TRANSFORMING MOTORCYCLES. And the Legioss and Tread are wonderful designs, as well as the Inbit.

Hell, if Mospeada hadn't stolen transforming robots and alien invaders from Macross, I wouldn't like it so much.

The only problem is, invading aliens, transforming mecha, those things aren't unique. The specific combination maybe, but the ideas aren't. And the way that aliens are protrayed and their motivations are wildly different. And while yellow dancer and minmei are both singers, their roles are very different as are their effects.

[Ginrai]

Here are quotes from Mospeada's creators Shinji Aramaki and Hideki Kakinuma complaining about Mospeada ripping off Macross.

-Is that the way the fighter jet robot was made?

Aramaki: But I wish we made only the motorbike. At the beginning, we thought we could do it with only the bike. The producer wanted an "attractive plan" rather than the sponsor's order to push it commercially. At that time, it was our first program and I thought, "That's the way it is," and followed his idea.

Kakinuma: "An airplane is not enough. Let's put a booster. Let's make the booster transform..." Like that, we had no idea what we were doing.

-Did each of you have your own role in the mecha design?

Aramaki: I did the bike as I had started. [sic] But I drew Legioss and Mr. Kakinuma traced it. We had give and take. It was quite vague. Mr. Kakinuma made most of the enemy mecha, but both of us drew the set-up of each episode together. If I left my rough drawings, Mr. Kakinuma traced them, something like that.

-The panning [sic] was based on the model development.

Kakinuma: The finished film had totally different backgrounds from what we were thinking of while we were making the mecha. We had a generation gap. Mecha designers who were on the sponsor side selling the hardware were early 20's and the staff who were making the film were late 30's. We were divided in two generations and two standpoints. It was a tremendous gap. But I don't think it would be successful to broadcast a brutal war story during that time of the day.

Aramaki: Something unlucky was that the staff of the older generation had experience with "Macross." "Macross" was based on hard mecha, but the striking points were beautiful girls and idols. So they thought if we pointed up these areas, people would have liked it.

Kakinuma: It was too much.

-I saw a title "Mechanical Animation Supervisor" in the Opening Credits.

Kakinuma: Mr. Kubota who had been working with me at Baku, was doing the actual negotiation with the sponsor as a hobby toy producer. He didn't draw pictures, but he was doing things like what scale and how many kinds of the merchandise to make. Also, what kind of gimmick to attach and checking the wooden models. He did all sorts of details like these.

-Legioss is smaller in scale compared to the Valkyrie from "Macross". Did you distinguish it on purpose?

Aramaki: Legioss is shorter than 10 meters. The only thing I did deliberately was distinguishing it from the Valkyrie when it became a robot as merchandise. For the gimmick on the toy I wanted to open the canopy of the Legioss because the Valkyrie's canopy couldn't be opened. But I was told it was impossible to divide the parts. We ended up making the whole thing open.

Kakinuma: Back then, we drew the wooden models and the drawings for the toys and plastic model kits.

Aramaki: They asked me to make a parts drawing. I guess they misunderstood and thought that I was someone who could make blueprints because I knew about the design. So, I had a tough time convincing them that I couldn't do that. And when we were making "Mospeada" toys, the person who made the test products didn't understand the transforming bike. He was making wooden models but he interpreted them the way he wanted and made them with different structures. Then they said, "It doesn't transform well." And they asked me for advice so I went to see it. It was a totally different thing. In the end, the person from Matsushiro who made the Valkyrie, made it and brought it to completion.

[Ginrai's note: Matsushiro is apparently the company that did the actual molding and manufacturing for the Valkyries, and after Takatoku's collapse, sold Valkyries in Europe without the Macross license or name attached, and later with Hasbro sold the Super Valkyrie as Jetfire, before they were asborbed by or began cooperating with Bandai. Most of Takatoku's staff that worked on the Valkyrie ended up working for Bandai anyway.]

Kakinuma: It was an extremely subtle era. Back then, most of our work which was credited as mechanical design were making drawings in different scales from the models of a few tens of toys and parts' drawings, decal design. These things took so many months...

Aramaki: This popped parts attaches in this dent, something like that over and over (laugh). The color of decal should be something like this, this word should be spelled in this font. Also rough sketches for the picture of the packages.

Kakinuma: There was a huge amount of work, which was nothing to do with anime films. From the time we started drawing on paper two-dimensionally to the time of the completion of the mockup for the while lineup of merchandise.

Aramaki: In reverse, these things were most of our work. These were nothing to do with the film, but we thought we were at the base of the work in our standpoint. "Macross" was our example. Thanks to these frontiers of model development like "Gundam" and "Macross," it's very sure that we could develop the same way like them and it was that kind of time.

Source: Genesis Climber Mospeada Staff Interview 8 From Genesis Climber Mospeada Staff Interviews/Staff Articles, available in English in the booklet that comes with the Genesis Climber Mospeada ADV DVD set.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Ginrai

[jenius]

Well, we all agreed the Legioss was a bit of a rip-off, it's the entirety of Mospeada being a rip-off that was being debated. Almost every reference to gleaming anything from Macross here is in relation to toy creation and mech (legioss) design. He then thanks Macross and Gundam for creating an environment that allowed them to go about things as they did (again, from a merchandise standpoint).

Edited July 18, 2007 by jenius

[Ginrai]

Read closer: Kakinuma: The finished film had totally different backgrounds from what we were thinking of while we were making the mecha. We had a generation gap. Mecha designers who were on the sponsor side selling the hardware were early 20's and the staff who were making the film were late 30's. We were divided in two generations and two standpoints. It was a tremendous gap. But I don't think it would be successful to broadcast a brutal war story during that time of the day.

Aramaki: Something unlucky was that the staff of the older generation had experience with "Macross." "Macross" was based on hard mecha, but the striking points were beautiful girls and idols. So they thought if we pointed up these areas, people would have liked it.

Which means they decided to make it more like Macross instead of the hard war story Aramaki and Kakinuma were going for.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Ginrai

[Phyrox]

Yeah, we can all read.

Because the producers of the show moved it more in a macross direction than was originally envisioned doesn't make it a rip off.

Look at the finished product. Apart from the mecha concepts (which are just eye candy), there isn't THAT much that the two share besides basic genre.

[jenius]

Okay, to be fair, Ginrai's second post did clarify where the emphasis of his quote was and I pretty much missed it the first read through. Still, we know that some people involved with the creation of Macross wanted it to be a lot more like Gundam but we *generally* don't go around calling Macross a Gundam rip-off. Again, I don't think there's a single person who wouldn't say that Mospeada (and Southern Cross) both are clearly influenced by Macross and I doubt anyone would deny both shows wanted some of Macross' success, it's the "rip-off" phrase that just seems to be extreme. The creators of Mospeada were probably dreaming up a very unique story and were then asked to incorporate aspects that had been proven to be successful by Macross, they may be unhappy that they did so, they may blame having done so for part of the lackluster response, that doesn't make the whole thing a rip-off though. The fact they hadn't imagined some of the backgrounds to be a certain way or that there'd be an idol (uh, a cross-dressing one at that) just means that the show was influenced by a need for broader appeal... not that it's a rip-off. Meh, again, we're probably just going into what constitutes "ripping off" to different people again.

[Ginrai]

What they wanted it to be was a hardcore serious war motorcycle/power armor version of the Normandy invasion in World War II. What we got was Macross with a kind of Mad Max world... which is sort of what happened in the last few episodes of Macross anyway.

Their story was submerged in a bunch of unwanted Macross elements because the Tatsunoko people were from a different generation and wanted a piece of Macross' pie. I maintain that Kakinuma and Aramaki's original story was pretty original, but what we actually got in Mospeada thanks to Tatsunoko was a Macross ripoff with a few elements from K & A's original idea floating around. They even managed to turn Mospeada's radically inhuman slugs in space crab armor into human beings by the end of the show.

This is probably why Artmic and a K & A started working with companies besides Tatsunoko that wouldn't poo all over their ideas, and provide a better animation studio than damn AnimeFriend.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Ginrai

[jenius]

I think your own comments subvert your own argument though. You admit there is original stuff but you seem to be tainted by knowledge of what could have been rather than judging what it was on its own merits. You're using evidence that the original concept was altered to incorporate more Macross elements to prove that the show is just a rip-off. Well by your definition than Macross is quite clearly a Gundam rip-off isn't it? There's no doubt then that Southern Cross is also a rip-off of previous shows. All of those productions had radically different concepts that were then crafted by a variety of people (all trying to make a dollar... er Yen) into something more LIKE something else. Other than the Legioss though the rip off argument just falls short.

[Ginrai]

I think your own comments subvert your own argument though. You admit there is original stuff but you seem to be tainted by knowledge of what could have been rather than judging what it was on its own merits. You're using evidence that the original concept was altered to incorporate more Macross elements to prove that the show is just a rip-off. Well by your definition than Macross is quite clearly a Gundam rip-off isn't it? There's no doubt then that Southern Cross is also a rip-off of previous shows. All of those productions had radically different concepts that were then crafted by a variety of people (all trying to make a dollar... er Yen) into something more LIKE something else. Other than the Legioss though the rip off argument just falls short.

That's not what I said at all. I said there WERE original ideas, but they are mostly impossible to see because the elements stolen from Macross are front and center. The make a much bigger deal out of the Legioss and Tread than they do of the Mospeada, despite the name of the show. The REASON Macross is not a Gundam ripoff is because the mecha is vastly different, the character focus is entirely different, and it is primarily a love story. The war is the background in Macross, where in Gundam the war is the foreground. Macross is about how love conquers all, and Gundam is about how war screws everyone and love is not enough, so just try not to die.

In the case of Mospeada, the reason it fails in my eyes is that it has too much Macross crap to be an original show about robo-motorcycles and space crabs and not enough Macross to be a good Macross style space romance. As we brought up in the podcast, the characters are all pretty shallow and the there is zero development in the love triangle, and they abandon it almost immediately. It is a pale imitation of Macross in that regard. I like the mecha designs, but again, we all agree that the Legioss is a pale imitation of a Valkyrie.

Primary elements of Macross: Love triangle in THE FUTURE, space war, transforming three mode fighter jet, aliens that wind being basically human (they start out giants, end up our size and sexually compatible), idol singers that win over the aliens.

Primary elements of Mospeada: Half-assed love triangle IN THE FUTURE, space war, transforming three mode fighter jet, aliens that wind up being basically human (they start out as slugs, end up as humans, again sexually compatible), idol singers that win over the aliens.

The big differences are the addition of the motorcycles and that the idol singer is a crossdresser.

What do YOU guys think is so different and original about Mospeada?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Ginrai

[jenius]

Who is the love triangle in Mospeada? There isn't even a love triangle there. There are a couple quasi-relationships but most of them are just hinted at until completely wrapped up in the end. Juxtapose that to Macross where the love drama is a huge driving force. There are aliens who end up APPEARING human, with no comment as to sexual compatibility 'cause it likely wouldn't be there in Mospeada. There aren't any idol singers winning over aliens in Mospeada unless you mean to include Sorji as all of Inbit kind. The Inbit could care less about culture and you have to admit, the cross-dressing freedom fighter aspect is definitely a twist on Minmay's idol. None of the characters have a Global or Roy guiding them, they just have Stig's single-minded purpose. Who was the big space racist in Macross? Again, a FUTURE space war is a genre, not a rip off. The Inbit restored Earth, they didn't leave it a cratered mess like the Zents did. The Inbit actually saved the Earth from the humans... I missed that theme in Macross. Mospeada is about sneaking around and launching terrorist style attacks (in sometimes flamboyant ways) where Macross was about waiting for the next time the quarreling enemy felt like striking out at the humans. In Mospeada there are plenty of fights against humans, in Macross there's a bit of political jockeying.

I find it very easy to point out a few similarities but as Eugimon pointed out, they're usually superficial. If we're going to let "Future space war" become something damning then hell... we're gonna compile a long list of Macross rip-offs. Three mode jets? Sure, Takatoku knew what made money. Aliens that appear human? I'm pretty sure we can't credit Macross with that and it's employment in Mospeada is absolutely different from its employment in Macross. Idol singers? We all seem to acknowledge the fact that they're used in completely different ways, for different means, so basically you're just saying both shows have strong musical elements and yeah, that's not unique in any way.

[eugimon]

love triange - hinted out but not really explored in Mospeada. Was a huge driving force behind hikaru, misa and minmei's character development. Can you say the same for ray and stick?

space war - and? so now macross and mospeada are a rip-off of star wars?

transforming three mode jet - no argument here.

aliens that wind up being basically human - uhm, I missed the part in SDFM where the zentradi were larval stages of a giant energy based life form.

idol singers that win over the aliens - minmei = shock and awe psychological weapon. Yellow falls in love with a particular slug and reasons with the refles to leave earth. Yellow is also soldier, minmei is annoying teenage girl who whines a lot.

You really might as well say that macross is a rip-off of star wars if you're going to say that merely having similar themes is enought to constitute a rip-off.

hikaru/luke, young naive pilots who are suddenly thrust into a much larger world and war, become pivotal pilots. Both suffer great tragedies that force them away from what they know.

Roy/Ben - older and wiser gurus who have looked after the protagonist, who teach them the skills necessary to survive, both die tragically.

zentradi/empire - huge space empire bent on domination, large capital ships capable of destroying worlds.

Story similarities:

Hikaru/luke get captured and escape from zentradi/empire and learn vaulable military secrets along the way.

Hikaru/Luke place faith in an intangible force to secure victory against impossible odds - hikaru- love / luke - the force.

Mecha/machine similarities:

x-wing / valkyries: out numbered but technologically superior to their counterparts, and have multiple modes/ configurations.

pods/tie fighter: cheap war machine with limited abilities but mass produced, primarily fight by overwhelming the enemy with numbers.

millenium falcon/ SDF Macross: main ship of series, plagued by technical issues, constantly on the run from pursuing forces. Pilots/bridge crew use ingenious and counter intuitive plans to survive.

so did macross rip-off star wars? no more than lucas ripped off kurosawa's seven samurai. The various ingredients are similar but the end product is sufficiently unique and worthy of existing in it's own right.

[VF5SS]

All we're saying is that Mospeada is a Macross ripoff. In the same vein, Fatal Fury is a Street Fighter ripoff and that doesn't make it bad per se. Also we'd like to point out that there's a difference between "inspired by" and a ripoff. Macross is inspired by Yamato and Gundam because the people who worked on it were fans or also worked on those shows, but the overall feeling is different. Look at Ginrai's list of similarities, you can see how Mospeada lifts several plot points from Macross. Also, considering the people involved and the pressures from sponsors and Tatsunoko's handling I don't see how Mospeada can be anything else but an attempt to copy Macross. It's like Baldios and Gundam. Baldios is totally a Gundam ripoff plot wise and even design wise. We still like Baldios, but it's not terribly original.

[jenius]

All we're saying is that Mospeada is a Macross ripoff. In the same vein, Fatal Fury is a Street Fighter ripoff and that doesn't make it bad per se. Also we'd like to point out that there's a difference between "inspired by" and a ripoff. Macross is inspired by Yamato and Gundam because the people who worked on it were fans or also worked on those shows, but the overall feeling is different. Look at Ginrai's list of similarities, you can see how Mospeada lifts several plot points from Macross. Also, considering the people involved and the pressures from sponsors and Tatsunoko's handling I don't see how Mospeada can be anything else but an attempt to copy Macross. It's like Baldios and Gundam. Baldios is totally a Gundam ripoff plot wise and even design wise. We still like Baldios, but it's not terribly original.

Now see, that sounds a whole lot better but I think it's because the emphasis on "macross rip-off" is replaced by the greater meaning of "not terribly original." I totally agree that Mospeada is not terribly original. What I disagree with is that it just rips-off Macross. If the original comment was something like "Mospeada is just Mad Max meets Macross with a story-book ending" I'd go with that. I think the two caveats for other influences/aspects are significant enough to bear stating.

Edited July 19, 2007 by jenius

[VF5SS]

Wow. This has devolved into stupid semantics.

[Ginrai]

love triange - hinted out but not really explored in Mospeada. Was a huge driving force behind hikaru, misa and minmei's character development. Can you say the same for ray and stick?

Which is exactly what I said. It is a pale Macross imitation because it tries to have Macross' love triangle and fails miserably at it.

--space war - and? so now macross and mospeada are a rip-off of star wars?

Don't be pedantic. Non-sequitor.

--aliens that wind up being basically human - uhm, I missed the part in SDFM where the zentradi were larval stages of a giant energy based life form

Like I said, Kakinuma and Aramaki had good intentions, but Tatsunoko perverted it so we were right back to Macross.

--idol singers that win over the aliens - minmei = shock and awe psychological weapon. Yellow falls in love with a particular slug and reasons with the refles to leave earth. Yellow is also soldier, minmei is annoying teenage girl who whines a lot.

There is a lot more going on than just shock and awe with Minmay. Miria's behavior is an excellent example of how the aliens were won over by Minmay and human culture in general. That is not the same thing as being astonished long enough for a pilot to shoot you with a missile. Humanity survived because of mass defections in the Zentradi fleet, not because of "shock". Now in Mospeada they again do it on a much smaller, weaker scale. Aisha and Sorji both "defect". Her daughters being won over is what convinces the Refless to leave (by Yellow and Stick), not just Yellow arguing with her.

--You really might as well say that macross is a rip-off of star wars if you're going to say that merely having similar themes is enought to constitute a rip-off.

hi-karu/luke, young naive pilots who are suddenly thrust into a much larger world and war, become pivotal pilots. Both suffer great tragedies that force them away from what they know.

Roy/Ben - older and wiser gurus who have looked after the protagonist, who teach them the skills necessary to survive, both die tragically.

zentradi/empire - huge space empire bent on domination, large capital ships capable of destroying worlds.

This is also a non-sequitor. Star Wars is NOT a love triangle, it is not about transforming three mode jets, it is not about aliens initially monstrous in aspect that become humans by the end. Young naive hero thing is a standard heroic story trope, not something that comes from Star Wars, and space wars with giant alien fleets and captial ships go back a lot further than Star Wars. Obviously there is Star Trek, but also Forbidden Planet and a host of other movies that came before that, not to mention Buck Rogers and everything. Mospeada is not a ripoff because it is also about robots in space, it is a ripoff because it contains most of Macross' central themes and visuals, whereas Macross only shares a couple of themes and visuals with Gundam, just as Gundam only shares a couple of themes and visuals with Yamato and so on.

Furthermore, Star Wars cribs liberally from Yamato, Lensman, Dune, The Hidden Fortress, and The Dambusters. But once again, I think Star Wars is a non-sequitor, because clearly Macross owes much more to Gundam and Yamato than it does to Star Wars.

--Story similarities: Hikaru/luke get captured and escape from zentradi/empire and learn vaulable military secrets along the way.

Oh please. The hero getting captured is another standard heroic story trope that occurs in almost all stories of that style. Placing the hero or his loved ones in peril is the stuff of action/adventure drama.

--Hikaru/Luke place faith in an intangible force to secure victory against impossible odds - hikaru- love / luke - the force.

You are really stretching here. He does not put his faith in an intangible force, he puts his faith in massive enemy defections and the technology of the reaction missile and barrior overload.

--Mecha/machine similarities: x-wing / valkyries: out numbered but technologically superior to their counterparts, and have multiple modes/ configurations.

Man, this Star Wars thing is getting ridiculous. Again the hero being outnumbered is a standard heroic story trope and multiple modes? Please. The X Wing has wings like a Tomcat, two positions, up and down. The Valkyrie TRANSFORMS INTO A HUMANOID ROBOT. That is not remotely analgous.

--pods/tie fighter: cheap war machine with limited abilities but mass produced, primarily fight by overwhelming the enemy with numbers.

Once again, villains out numbering the heroes is a standard story trope.

--millenium falcon/ SDF Macross: main ship of series, plagued by technical issues, constantly on the run from pursuing forces. Pilots/bridge crew use ingenious and counter intuitive plans to survive.

Oh come on. The SDF is a gigantic fortress with an incredibly power cannon capable of destroying enemy ships outright, the centerpiece of the human fleet, and salvaged from alien technology. The Millennium Falcon is an obsolete, stumpy little five person smugger's ship plauged by technical issues. The Macross is not plagued by technical issues, it is plauged by humans who don't know how to use it properly. This is not analgous either.

--so did macross rip-off star wars? no more than lucas ripped off kurosawa's seven samurai. The various ingredients are similar but the end product is sufficiently unique and worthy of existing in it's own right.

Lucas ripped off The Hidden Fortress, not Seven Samurai. Get it right.

P.S. Mospeada has seven main characters like Seven Samurai. This was done on purpose, as per the same interview booklet.

[justvinnie]

Glass half empty or half full? A ripoff or inspired by?

vinnie

[jenius]

Wow. This has devolved into stupid semantics.

For people looking for feedback you seem to be doing a good job at not getting defensive...

[VF5SS]

For people looking for feedback you seem to be doing a good job at not getting defensive...

Well, when we all can't seem to agree on what constitutes a ripoff, I think we're getting into stupid semantics.

[jenius]

Agreed and because we disagree on what a rip-off is many of us are destined to never agree on whether Mospeada was just a rip-off (or, more specifically a Macross Rip-Off). I think we all saw this coming last page. If we were putting it to a vote, I'd say the term "rip-off" should be used for something absolutely blatant and it's probably way better off being used for something in particular. Jean blowing up the Zor ship is a clear scene that is a Star Wars rip-off. The Legioss is a clear mech design that is a Valkyrie rip-off... trying to label things much larger than that is bound to lead to more imperfectly correlated items being lumped together.

My piece has been said... sorry if it worked to derail for so long.