VF-19 fleet uses

[David Hingtgen]

Ok, the A380's held up due to manufacturing. But that's a rare example of stupidity in the aircraft industry. There's no new technology or production process to blame it on, it's simple "we didn't agree on the measurements of the final product". It's flat-out embarrassing.

If the 787 has problems, everyone will point to new (for an airliner) composite construction materials. But the A380 has no excuse, it's a giant A340 and nothing more.

[Zinjo]

I don't see this design change as much of an issue. Since colonization fleets are capable of producing their own fighters, those fleets could optimize or select a design for their fighters that best suits their needs. In a sense, there's no "bottle-neck" at the distribution point. Production facilities can produce based on their consumer's needs.

Again, production at various locations would not stop production. New fighters would not have to be shipped to waiting fleets (except for perhaps front-line units and local governments). So again, we come back to costs. Training, maintanence, testing, etc. All the time spent just to get people to use the product prohibit its distribution.

I am not discounting the training aspects at all, that is an additional issue.

"Costs" are relative when one considers that raw materials just have to be harvested from planetary bodies, and considering we do not know what kind of economy the post apocalyptic UNG ran, even that is speculative. We are not shown how people are compensated for their work, but more importantly how colonization or military expenses are accounted for. For all we know it could be decreed that all such expenses are not accounted for in terms of the public economy, but are outside of it as considered esssential to survival of the species. Not too far a stretch considering what the world population had exeperienced...

You make a good point about the self sufficiency of emigration fleets during the Cityship era. All that is required to rebuild squadrons and even captial ships are planetary bodies from which to harvest the needed raw materials.

[eugimon]

space is actually pretty empty, habitable worlds where mining could take place are few and far between and most non planetary bodies aren't exactly ore rich. Our moon, for example, is pretty much just rock. And lets say that with the mecha, people can mine strip mine like crazy, they still need to mine HUGE amounts of raw materials. It's not just fighters they're producing but entire colonization fleets. Outside of the capital ships themselves, there's all the smaller ships, all the civilian products, all the support equipment.

You're also not taking into account the human factor, you say all they need to rebuild squadrons are raw materials, yet by the time the VF-19 has rolled out, they're no longer doing mass cloning. So where are the pilots coming from? What about the support crews? Not everyone born will want to be a pilot, or even military.

You're also making an assumption that the military has the deciding vote in the government, or has the priority. This may not be the case, in Mac7, we're shown that civilian needs are just as important as military needs. I doubt the mayors of the various colony ships would take it lightly if the UN SPACY started mass conscription to replace lost pilots, or were denied repairs and facilities, just so the military could have the latest and greatest.

[Mr March]

space is actually pretty empty, habitable worlds where mining could take place are few and far between and most non planetary bodies aren't exactly ore rich. Our moon, for example, is pretty much just rock. And lets say that with the mecha, people can mine strip mine like crazy, they still need to mine HUGE amounts of raw materials. It's not just fighters they're producing but entire colonization fleets. Outside of the capital ships themselves, there's all the smaller ships, all the civilian products, all the support equipment.

Although I agree with your other points (including a Macross special about the UNG; geeky though it may be, it'd be great!), I must take issue with your perception of space.

The resources available in the Sol System alone are near limitless for mankind's needs in the conceivable future. This includes materials common and exotic. Not only that, once challenges of space construction are overcome (as is the case in the Macross universe), building in zero g is actually much easier than assembly in gravity, particularly large scale (ships). I strongly recommend reading about the possibilities of space industries. You'd be really surprised at what is available, what is possible and the abundance compared to our single planet. Wiki actually has a very insightful section:

Space Colonization

[eugimon]

Although I agree with your other points (including a Macross special about the UNG; geeky though it may be, it'd be great!), I must take issue with your perception of space.

The resources available in the Sol System alone are near limitless for mankind's needs in the conceivable future. This includes materials common and exotic. Not only that, once challenges of space construction are overcome (as is the case in the Macross universe), building in zero g is actually much easier than assembly in gravity, particularly large scale (ships). I strongly recommend reading about the possibilities of space industries. You'd be really surprised at what is available, what is possible and the abundance compared to our single planet. Wiki actually has a very insightful section:

Space Colonization

Hmm, most of what I remember from college astronomy classes was that the firs three planets were dense, and probably iron rich, but that the moon, mars and outlying planets were significantly less dense and considered to be iron poor:

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-345/ch20.htm

The moon is generally considered to be the condensed remains of a portion of the earth's crust that was sloughed off into space due to a large planetary impact, this would further promote the idea that the moon is metal poor.

Regardless of the metal richness of venus and mercury, I think we can agree that no technology of sufficient level has been shown in the series to be able to sustain the pressures on venus, nor the temperatures on mercury.

Further, most of the planets we have been finding, have not been dense balls of rock similar to earth, but gas giants, these would be rich in lighter elements, but metal poor.

I maintain, that given the sheer vastness of space, finding metal rich bodies, suitable for mining and processing would still be rare and hardly the norm.

[sketchley]

Good point Eugemon. I'd like to add:

In VF-X2, the Factory Satellite has had a giant (for lack of better words) hole in it's side, allowing for asteroids to be brought inside and processed.

IMHO, extra-solar asteroids would be the main building material used by the factory ships in colonization fleets.

That said, how many years have the Zentraedi (and presumably Supervision Army) Forces been using Factory Satellites to build their massive fleets? It's highly probable that they have already strip-mined the (easily attainable) resources of the galaxy!

[David Hingtgen]

But with valks (and the Macross) made with "hypercarbon" material perhaps heavy metals aren't so important? The current trend for planes are lithium alloys and composite material. Kevlar and carbon-fiber have been used for decades for major parts.

[Mr March]

Hmm, most of what I remember from college astronomy classes was that the firs three planets were dense, and probably iron rich, but that the moon, mars and outlying planets were significantly less dense and considered to be iron poor:

If we're talking just metal ores, NEAs have always been looked upon as far more promising short term than any of the large bodies like the Moon or Mars (that are still largely unknowns) and far more economically feasible. Beyond that and into the long term, the collectible metals available in the asteroid belt alone is staggering. I've read through parts of Lewis' old book and availability of metals is far more than we have on our own planet. The discovery of just those few thousand objects we've cataloged so far continue to reinforce theories for mining. Then we aren't even talking beyond that or even considering other important materials in the Sol system like energy and water. I'm no authority, but from what I understand it doesn't appear there is any lack of resources even in just near Earth orbit. With a civilization like that of the UNG in Macross, the exploitation of a much greater percentage of the Solar system would yield far more materials. Exotic, magical technologies ala Trek would not even be required, but it's not like one would need to even bother with Venus or Mercury.

As for the last part, of course mineral rich bodies are rare compared to the vastness of space, as is everything. The majority of the universe is space, not matter; in some crazy proportion like one atom per ten cubic meters. But in the context of our needs as humans, I understand it as our solar system containing enough to support millions of times our population.

[eugimon]

Hmm, I honestly just don't know enough, or care enough to find out, to debate the point further. But given David's point and your points, I'll concede

[Mr March]

I agree DH. It makes sense the development of light materials is very significant for the UNG in the Macross universe. The valkyries are miracles of light weight design particularly for such equipment-laden vehicles. Particularly with the revelation of energy converting armor, it seems likely the valkyries are composite structures. Of course, there's no way of knowing the properties of hypercarbons or if they are even used in valkyries in addition to OverTech space ships. I'm not sure what "space metal" really means when it's stated in the official literature for the valkyries. Could be hypercarbon, but don't really know either way.

[Mr March]

Hmm, I honestly just don't know enough, or care enough to find out, to debate the point further. But given David's point and your points, I'll concede

Hehehe, well like I said above, I'm no authority. Either way, there's plenty of unknowns. But it sure is fun to ponder about the Macross universe. It's like sci-fi anthropology