Polite Questions on Macross7

[eugimon]

What's in a name? A LOT!

Evil Series = what became the Protodevlin.

Evil series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to a series of something called Evil.

evil Series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to something called Series which is evil.

evil series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to a series (possibly a movie or TV one) which is evil.

Not providing the correct name not only diminishes ones posts, it also fundamentally changes the meaning. It's like referring to the President as the president. Post what you mean, not something resembling what you mean. It fights off confusion; unless if you're being deliberately arguementative again. In that case: everyone, don't feed the troll!

PS Eugimon, I had to read your post twice to confirm exactly what you're talking about. The dual word, dual capitalization, especially in the name Evil Series, is applicable to one and all. It's terms like this that leave me scratching my head as to why people have chosen to romanize Macross terms in non-standard ways. Personally, I prefer the standard Hepburn romanization, and in this case, the result would create something that would still be understood without proper capitalization.

properly chastised, thank you.

[Keith]

Good points, however, I didn't mean the AFOS was "evil" as in having a malevolent spirit, but EVIL as in the EVIL series of bio weapons created by the PC.

The principal difference between this one compared to the PD is that the AFOS required a pilot, a moral center if you will, whereas the original EVILs were autonomous beings, similar to the Zentreadi. Which as it turned out was the best design characteristic the PC could have built. Without the pilot, the AFOS would follow it's programming to the letter without any consideration for any redeeming qualities a race might possess.

Which is why I tend to balk at the idea of the doomsday weapon idea of the AFOS, mostly in terms of the PC setting a higher standard for their experiments than they set for themselves... That such an advanced race at the brink of it's own destruction still didn't learn how to teach it's legacies as opposed to destroy them as they were about to be destroyed.

I find it rather 2 dimensional of them to do such a thing, which one has to assume they did to the hundreds (or thousands) of worlds they bioengineered.

Here's the major flaw I find in your disbelief. You'll buy that the Protoculture would be so bold as to populate the entire galaxy with life that resembles themselves, and fight their wars through genetically engineered soldiers so as to not dirty their own hands. But you won't accept that upon their downfall, they wouldn't set into motion measures to ensure that life they manipulated didn't follow in their footstteps & repeat the cycle of war through out the universe?

The whole Mayan creation legend is interesting in that it's pretty much centralized to the Mayan islands, even more so that the origins circulate around fish rather than sapians. I'd actually wager that the Mayans were evolved seperately from the rest of the humans on earth to serve specifically as guardians. You'll note the AFOS's question to Sara was specifically "are humans "still" fighting," which in itself precludes knwoledge of a warlike nature. Add into that the legend that Aeires professor mentions, in that the AFOS was ordered by the Protoculture to "sing the song of destruction" before leaving the planet, but instead chose to cut off its own head. Knowing that the AFOS's original pilot was Rooy Waka, Rooy Kanu's wife, and likely an actual Protoculture citizen herself, we can determine that she went against her orders before leaving, and instead left the Nome Shamen in charge of watching over humanity to see if they would continue down a warlike path. In effect leaving humans themselves to judge their worthyness to live, not the Protoculture.

Take it as you will, but when you piece together the various Mayan tales told through out the OVA, you can get a pretty clear picture of what went on.

[azrael]

I'd actually wager that the Mayans were evolved seperately from the rest of the humans on earth to serve specifically as guardians.

I'd wager against you on that. I won't even call the Nome or any Mayan bloodline completely pure. I would say it's more like genetic markers and/or traits carried in the Nome family which may be more dominant compared to everybody else in the world. It's like saying we all generate Spiritia, but only a few generate more.

[Zinjo]

properly chastised, thank you.

Moving on to REAL topics... while others boost their egos with grammar books...LOL

Here's the major flaw I find in your disbelief. You'll buy that the Protoculture would be so bold as to populate the entire galaxy with life that resembles themselves, and fight their wars through genetically engineered soldiers so as to not dirty their own hands. But you won't accept that upon their downfall, they wouldn't set into motion measures to ensure that life they manipulated didn't follow in their footstteps & repeat the cycle of war through out the universe?

The whole Mayan creation legend is interesting in that it's pretty much centralized to the Mayan islands, even more so that the origins circulate around fish rather than sapians. I'd actually wager that the Mayans were evolved seperately from the rest of the humans on earth to serve specifically as guardians. You'll note the AFOS's question to Sara was specifically "are humans "still" fighting," which in itself precludes knwoledge of a warlike nature. Add into that the legend that Aeires professor mentions, in that the AFOS was ordered by the Protoculture to "sing the song of destruction" before leaving the planet, but instead chose to cut off its own head. Knowing that the AFOS's original pilot was Rooy Waka, Rooy Kanu's wife, and likely an actual Protoculture citizen herself, we can determine that she went against her orders before leaving, and instead left the Nome Shamen in charge of watching over humanity to see if they would continue down a warlike path. In effect leaving humans themselves to judge their worthyness to live, not the Protoculture.

Take it as you will, but when you piece together the various Mayan tales told through out the OVA, you can get a pretty clear picture of what went on.

I am not disputing the facts so much as offering an opinion on the characterization of the PC's themselves (oh wait Protoculture - just in case sketchly and eugimon wish to "chastize me again... ). In that, why would an uber advanced race that had been around for Centuries not wish to "teach" the folly of their actions in the dusk of their civilization to those child worlds they had manipulated?

Why did it take the AFOS's pilot to show the morality to defy barbaric orders and stop the annhilliation of an entire world?

Maybe it was a commentary on the differences between the morailty of a government as opposed to it's citizens (whether the moral question was intended or by coincidence)?

Either way, it doesn't paint the ruling body of the PC's in a very benevolent light, which tends to ignite my disdain.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Zinjo

[eugimon]

I'd wager against you on that. I won't even call the Nome or any Mayan bloodline completely pure. I would say it's more like genetic markers and/or traits carried in the Nome family which may be more dominant compared to everybody else in the world. It's like saying we all generate Spiritia, but only a few generate more.

I don't think keith is saying that spirita is unique to the mayans, just the ability to interface with the AFOS.

[Keith]

I don't think keith is saying that spirita is unique to the mayans, just the ability to interface with the AFOS.

Exactly. The connection between the AFOS, & Sara/Mao was more than just Spiritia, there was an actual genetic connection, which is why only those two among all the islanders were unknowingly connected to it. It's not unreasonable to think that the Protoculture were genetically linked to their mecha, especially when said mecha were biological in nature. Another interesting note, The AFOS had the same voice as Sara's father.

[Zinjo]

It's not unreasonable to think that the Protoculture were genetically linked to their mecha, especially when said mecha were biological in nature. Another interesting note, The AFOS had the same voice as Sara's father.

Interesting speculation, however it is equally plausible to expect that the AFOS had a telepathic link with it's pilot similar to the "Brainwave Interface" of Macross Plus however much more advanced. It is also conceivable the AFOS chose a voice to communicate that Sara was familiar with, hence her father's. I doubt that it has any more significance than that.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Interesting speculation, however it is equally plausible to expect that the AFOS had a telepathic link with it's pilot similar to the "Brainwave Interface" of Macross Plus however much more advanced. It is also conceivable the AFOS chose a voice to communicate that Sara was familiar with, hence her father's. I doubt that it has any more significance than that.

Considering the Brainwave interface was based on the Quadran Rau, i.e. Protoculture technology in the first place, it's quite feasable that the AFOS used something biologically similar, though the fact that it only interfaced with the Nome remains. As for the voice thing, it could have specifically chosen Sara's father as a template, but then he was also its previous intended pilot, so who know's there.

[Valkyrie addict]

urrrrr....back to Macross 7 and PC stuff

you know the episode were they find that pyramid in the sea, and Exedol, Mylene and a bunch of other soldiers went to investigate and talk to something that was PC before that bird elf ugly batty killed it, what was it exactly? was it a recording or a PC? I'm confused since as far as I remembered, the thing reacted in fear when the PD swoop by

[SpacyAce2012]

The whole Mayan creation legend is interesting in that it's pretty much centralized to the Mayan islands, even more so that the origins circulate around fish rather than sapians. I'd actually wager that the Mayans were evolved seperately from the rest of the humans on earth to serve specifically as guardians. You'll note the AFOS's question to Sara was specifically "are humans "still" fighting," which in itself precludes knwoledge of a warlike nature. Add into that the legend that Aeires professor mentions, in that the AFOS was ordered by the Protoculture to "sing the song of destruction" before leaving the planet, but instead chose to cut off its own head. Knowing that the AFOS's original pilot was Rooy Waka, Rooy Kanu's wife, and likely an actual Protoculture citizen herself, we can determine that she went against her orders before leaving, and instead left the Nome Shamen in charge of watching over humanity to see if they would continue down a warlike path. In effect leaving humans themselves to judge their worthyness to live, not the Protoculture.

Just some random thoughts on my part, regarding this issue.

I have to disagree with the evolution bit. I tend to take a similar position to azrael's. However, the only problem with my opinion is the fact that Anima Spiritia, and the spiritial powers of song, hadn't been discovered during time of PC activities on Earth.

The issue of AFOS's knowlege of humanity's warlike nature can be easily answered. The head unit was still partially active all these centuries, it seems. Advanced sensors (possibly) allowed it to monitor part of what was was going on in the world since the PC intervention in Humanity's evolution. It's a possible explanation that it picked up on the conflicts that raged in the Pacific in the 20th Century, which alerted it to continuing warfare with higher technology. Early efforts at spaceflight would've have aroused it's interests a little.

It's questions to Sara were more along the lines of "fill in the blanks". Humanity now had the potential for interstellar travel, combined with continued war. And I highly doubt that there was some sort of "genocide decree for warmongers" in the ancient legends (in the part of why the head unit was separated from the machine). What is said in the official timeline regarding the reasons behind the efforts on Earth, and the state of the galaxy at the time it was going on, doesn't support this. Nor does it support the "song of destruction" bit in a literal sense. And the PC scientists had to realize that you can expect violence among proto-Human savages, which would be necessary for survival (last long enough to rise to the top, and actually develop civilization).

In any case, the Stellar Republic wasn't on the verge of exinction at the time. That would come later. Thus, the extreme "never again" measures wouldn't add up.

Then again, it may have acted on Sara's subconscious desires, rather than any Protoculture programming. The "hearing" of the machine's inquiries may have been a subconscious effort to justify what she was getting ready to do. An internal war between her moral nature and her inner rage/desire for revenge. Seeing the "kadun" was her seeing (in her mind, thanks to the machine interface) what she hated in humanity that bought destruction to her people, rather than some goofy bulls**t evil war demons.

If it was indeed a "safety valve", then it was the scientists involved who initiated it, rather than an official move on the Protoculture as a whole. The official timeline offers some evidence for speculation, in this regard.

[Keith]

Actually, the war with the Protodevelin occurred within a year of Earth colonization, and the survey ship was taken out by a pre-Protodevelin, non-Zentradi, anti-PC faction of the PC. Hell, with a rare Protoculture on Protoculture attack looming, they must have known something was about to go down.

I really don't see why you think there's room for debate on this issue however, it's pretty plainly spelled out that yes, the Protoculture did leave the AFOS behind as a safety measure, and in fact did intend to whipe out humanity before leaving. The only thing not truly clear, is whether or not this happened "before" or "after" the Protoculture conflict. After viewing 7, we know there were enough Protoculture left behind (just barely) to set certain events in motion (such as the ruins), and this excerpt from the compendium actually leaves a lot of breathing room open on the issue of a second Protoculture visit to earth:

PC 2870

A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary enivronment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]

Here we know that records of Earth lasted for 30 years past the initial visit, as did remnants of the Protoculture. And while this particular issue isn't clearly spelled out, I believe that the "Bird humans" who came to Earth & evolved the "fish humans" were a second group of post war Protoculture, ones who found humanity to be jsut as violent as themselves, but gave them the option of evolving past it before exterminating them. The other piece of evidence, as you have noticed, would be the anima spiritia abilities, which weren't discovered until the war with the Protodevelin. This overall is quite a feasable theory.

[Keith]

urrrrr....back to Macross 7 and PC stuff

you know the episode were they find that pyramid in the sea, and Exedol, Mylene and a bunch of other soldiers went to investigate and talk to something that was PC before that bird elf ugly batty killed it, what was it exactly? was it a recording or a PC? I'm confused since as far as I remembered, the thing reacted in fear when the PD swoop by

It was either an actual Protoculture citizen, or an A.I. of one.

[Zinjo]

Actually, the war with the Protodevelin occurred within a year of Earth colonization, and the survey ship was taken out by a pre-Protodevelin, non-Zentradi, anti-PC faction of the PC. Hell, with a rare Protoculture on Protoculture attack looming, they must have known something was about to go down.

I really don't see why you think there's room for debate on this issue however, it's pretty plainly spelled out that yes, the Protoculture did leave the AFOS behind as a safety measure, and in fact did intend to whipe out humanity before leaving. The only thing not truly clear, is whether or not this happened "before" or "after" the Protoculture conflict. After viewing 7, we know there were enough Protoculture left behind (just barely) to set certain events in motion (such as the ruins), and this excerpt from the compendium actually leaves a lot of breathing room open on the issue of a second Protoculture visit to earth:

PC 2870

A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary enivronment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]

Here we know that records of Earth lasted for 30 years past the initial visit, as did remnants of the Protoculture. And while this particular issue isn't clearly spelled out, I believe that the "Bird humans" who came to Earth & evolved the "fish humans" were a second group of post war Protoculture, ones who found humanity to be jsut as violent as themselves, but gave them the option of evolving past it before exterminating them. The other piece of evidence, as you have noticed, would be the anima spiritia abilities, which weren't discovered until the war with the Protodevelin. This overall is quite a feasable theory.

Actually there is room for speculation on both positions.

At the time of the gene-splicing on Earth the republic had already split in two, but there was no indication that the republic was facing a catastrophic end like it was by 2875 PC.

The EVIL Series did not go online until 2871 PC and by then the records of Earth had been lost. The cascading affects of the spiritia possession was quickly becoming clear to the PC and within a year the republic was reduced to a shell of its former self.

Was the AFOS a bio-weapon that predated or postdated the PD? Either way, one could speculate it was a "guardian" left by the survey ship or a "doomsday weapon" left behind by a remnant group of PC (though only a surviving bridge officer of the survey ship could rechart the course back). It has also been argued in another thread that it may have been a doomsday weapon designed to keep any "lesser" races from becoming a threat to the PC regime... that is another POV...

However if it was a guardian that could be affected by the emotional state of it's pilot, then it was powerful enough to become a doomsday weapon, considering how powerful the PD were and they were made with the same tech as the AFOS.

[Keith]

And yet one more mystery to throw into the mix. Did the Supervision Army somehow pick up on the sleeping AFOS?

[eugimon]

And yet one more mystery to throw into the mix. Did the Supervision Army somehow pick up on the sleeping AFOS?

hmm, that's an interesting idea. The only thing about it, and I guess this goes for the franchise in general, is that there seem to be too many "fate" moments... like what happened to SW. you find out that everything was tied together, like yoda knowing chewie back in ep. 3.

I really liked the idea of humanity just bumbling around, then through a twist of fate, being drawn into a larger conflict.

[Zinjo]

And yet one more mystery to throw into the mix. Did the Supervision Army somehow pick up on the sleeping AFOS?

Interesting.

If that were the case would not they be compelled to attack the Earth as some sort of outpost of the PC or Zents?

Yet another speculation, did the PC leave the AFOS behind or did the SA leave it for the same reasons speculated about the PC, to eliminate any potential future threats or allies to the PC?

The legend of the pilot could still apply, just a different faction would be responsible...

The mind boggles...

[Keith]

Nope, wouldn't work with the SA, if they had the ability to generate spiritia, then there would have been no need to tear up the galaxy for the Protodevelin.

[Zinjo]

Nope, wouldn't work with the SA, if they had the ability to generate spiritia, then there would have been no need to tear up the galaxy for the Protodevelin.

As far as I know the AFOS was not powered by spiritia.... You said yourself that it appeared to be activated by a genetic connection, which is very reasonable. Since the SA were composed of PC citizens, it is possible for them to operate an AFOS device, I suspect they had a few of their own.

Could it have been an SA AFOS? Likely not, as the OVA story doesn't support such a thing, however I tend to believe the SA did possess such equipment, though it is doubtful they had as many as the PC would.

[Keith]

Oh I dissagree. Going by what's seen in Macross 7 & the two SA ships seen in the oriignal Macross, I'd say the SA used older Protoculture technology "upgraded," much like the Varuta fleet in 7. The only bio-technology they had were the Protodevelin themselves.

[Mr March]

I gotta say that is really throwing off my understanding of the Protodeviln/Supervision Army. As I understand it, the Protodeviln are basically technological vampires for all intents and purposes. Everytime they come in contact with a species, they simply possess them, control the rest, use all their technology and even develop their own technology with parity. Which makes perfect sense; if a Protodeviln controls a Protoculture engineer, all that protoculture engineering is now Protodeviln knowledge. Unless we talk about subsuming culture, which apparently the Protodeviln can't do, all indications are that the Protodeviln/SA will possess whatever technology possessed by their subsumed civilizations. The only possible way around that would be limited, low-production technology or experiemental fringe sciences not widely available. Was the AFOS one such technology?

[Zinjo]

Oh I dissagree. Going by what's seen in Macross 7 & the two SA ships seen in the oriignal Macross, I'd say the SA used older Protoculture technology "upgraded," much like the Varuta fleet in 7. The only bio-technology they had were the Protodevelin themselves.

Not necessarily.

We've only seen two wrecked gunships from SDFM and the Varuata ships themselves were recontructed Megaroad 13 ships, not grown.

The facilities to "grow" bio-tech equipment may have long sinice been destroyed and without actual PC engineers' knowledge to draw upon (which would have been found among the SA ranks) it would improbable for them to be able to reconstruct the facilities themselves and with the limited knowledge and abilities of the Human/Zentreadi populations they had to work with.

Now we also know some technologies had been "lost", either possibly due to conflict, a degradation of knowledge over the generations or from lack of use (preference of beam weapons over reaction missiles).

This doesn't mean that the SA didn't possess bio-weaponry like the AFOS, just that from what we know the PD from Mac 7 did not possess the ability to grow weapons when they were encountered.

As March has stated, if they are limited in knowlege and rely on their subjects to provide the expertise for advanced weaponry, they would be limited by the level of personal understanding of the tech as well as the tech levels of their subjects.

[Keith]

From what was shown of the Protodevelin, they were hardly limited by their subjects for their technological knowledge. All indications show they took what existing technology was their, and upgraded it to suit their needs. Spiritia collection devices didn't exist prior to the Protodevelin, their battleships were pretty badass in and of themselves, especially considering that they were derived from the Megaroad 13 fleets technology, and they developed a whole line of variable fighters based off of the VF-14 & VB-6. Assumedly, their mind control technology was original & somewhat unique from anything the Protocutlure had.

Hell, the only thing I would have really liked to see in 7 that wasn't there, would be the Protodevelikn recaling whatever scarce Supervision Army forces there were out in the universe, and adding them to their Varuta forces. Though I can understand why that wasn't done, since that would allow Basara to recoup real samples of Protoculture citizens. Though that in itself would pose an interesting question. What's the life span of the Protoculture? And how would the SA perpetuate themselves? Would they use Zentradi cloning technology? Procreation? Test tube babies?

But considering the Protoculture's bio-technology was for all intents "alive," it doesn't seem like a feasable resource for the SA to use. Anything living at that size would almost assuredly be preferably used for spiritia consumption & discared, rather than used for combat. There's also the issue of Natter Valgo. If the Protodevelin did previously have the technology to create bio-weapons, it'd make more sense for them to create a new biological valgo, rather than a mechanical one.

[mechaninac]

From a technological knowledge standpoint, the Protodevelin would possess the know how from their native dimension; all the information, if any, stored into the Evil Series Constructs they inhabited upon entering the "Macross" Universe; PC/SA technology from any PC/SA individual(s) they may have taken over, if any, at the time; as well as the combined knowledge of the inhabitants of the Megaroad 13 Fleet. On "paper" the Protodevelin are formidable foes, but as presented in M7 they fell prey to their arrogance, pettiness, and selfishness far more than their vulnerability to Basara's singing induced Spiritia barrages; they were, therefore, ineffective villains. At least that's how they came across to me.

[Zinjo]

From what was shown of the Protodevelin, they were hardly limited by their subjects for their technological knowledge. All indications show they took what existing technology was their, and upgraded it to suit their needs. Spiritia collection devices didn't exist prior to the Protodevelin, their battleships were pretty badass in and of themselves, especially considering that they were derived from the Megaroad 13 fleets technology, and they developed a whole line of variable fighters based off of the VF-14 & VB-6. Assumedly, their mind control technology was original & somewhat unique from anything the Protocutlure had.

Then you are giving them the attributes of machines rather than living beings? Only a machine could retain ALL the knowledge you ascribe to them.

Spirtia collection devices would be a given as it's like mankind knowing how to gather food.

Their capital ships were fairly formidable, however we didn't see them with substantially more of a tech level than that of the Spacy forces under Max's command, they were merely different. As for the Fz series of fighters, it was discussed in another thread and their is no definitive recorded evidence that they were "developed" VF's as opposed to "adapted" VFs from existing equipment-the wording of the compedium is not clear on this subject.

Hell, the only thing I would have really liked to see in 7 that wasn't there, would be the Protodevelikn recaling whatever scarce Supervision Army forces there were out in the universe, and adding them to their Varuta forces. Though I can understand why that wasn't done, since that would allow Basara to recoup real samples of Protoculture citizens. Though that in itself would pose an interesting question. What's the life span of the Protoculture? And how would the SA perpetuate themselves? Would they use Zentradi cloning technology? Procreation? Test tube babies?

As I've argued before, tactically that would have been a foolish move considering:

- Not all the PD were awake

- It would have surely alerted any Zentreadi fleet monitoring for a broadband "call to arms" message eminating from Varuata, thus alerting the PC forces (as far as they knew) to their active state.

- They had no idea if any of their original army had survived after they were imprisoned and as it appeared they didn't care to find out, since they had new cannon fodder to play with.

However, the question as to the lifespan of a PC and the procreation of the SA are very interesting indeed...

But considering the Protoculture's bio-technology was for all intents "alive," it doesn't seem like a feasable resource for the SA to use. Anything living at that size would almost assuredly be preferably used for spiritia consumption & discared, rather than used for combat. There's also the issue of Natter Valgo. If the Protodevelin did previously have the technology to create bio-weapons, it'd make more sense for them to create a new biological valgo, rather than a mechanical one.

"Alive" is a relative term. Alive, but a vegetable without a pilot is one form, Alive, but with the instinctual intelligence of a dog, is another. Then their is sentient life like the Zentreadi and ultimately the Evil Series. The AFOS had self generating superior firepower, but apparently no independant / autonomous ability, hence the need for a pilot.

As for the SA harvesting spiritia, why? I could see such a thing if they knew where the PD were and were attempting to revive or feed them, but until that point, why waste the resources. If the Zentreadi did indeed outnumber them, they would need every weapon at their disposal to keep from being overrun.

As for Natter Valgo, you are complimenting my point. Had the PD been rejoined with the SA it may have been possible to grow an new Valgo body IF they still possessed the facilities to grow it (or if the Zentreadi allowed them to build new ones - assuming they could), however the question is whether the spiritia entity of Valgo still existed or was destoryed with the original body (I don't recall that from the show).

Edited July 27, 2007 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Valgo was dead, but Natter Valgo basically served as a "booster" for Gabil, and in that, it would stand to reason that a biological one would have worked better than a mechanical one.

As for the Zentradi & SA, as the Macross 5 fleet prooved, Zentradi alone are pertty ineffectual against a direct PD attack. Their hard wired fear would have kept them away from the Varuta system with just one Protodevelin awakened, let along backup from the Varuta fleet. Recalling the SA wouldn't have been all that dangerous.

[Zinjo]

As for the Zentradi & SA, as the Macross 5 fleet prooved, Zentradi alone are pertty ineffectual against a direct PD attack. Their hard wired fear would have kept them away from the Varuta system with just one Protodevelin awakened, let along backup from the Varuta fleet. Recalling the SA wouldn't have been all that dangerous.

Why would the Zentreadi go to Varuata if they could simply intercept incoming fleets instead?

Then there is the aspect that Zentreadi fleets tend to number in the thousands not the limited numbers sent out in Human/Zentreadi emigration fleets.

Their fear is certainly a factor, but there are two reactions to fear= fight / flight. If you have several fleets numbering in the thousands and even half of them choose to fight, the armies of the VA, SA and the PD themselves would be in a tough battle. The initial success of the PD was the element of surprise and their ability to mind control a large number of forces before the already splintered PC were aware that they were under attack by a new foe and not each other (remember they were using existing PC equipment during the war). With forces aware of their tactics the battles would be much more difficult.

In such a scenario, with a limited number of PD awakened and facing the prospect of having to deplete much of their forces' spiritia just to wake up, tactically it would be a bad call to rally any SA forces (assuming they believed any existed) at Varuata. Actually they would have knowledge of some SA survivors as they would have learned that from the micronized Zentreadi under their control from the Megaroad 13 fleet, which somewhat supports my theory that they felt it was tactically unwise to rally those old forces.

The real challenge would be how to keep the rest of the PD "contained" considering Gepelnich (?) could essentially turn himself into a black hole and swallow everyone. To kill the awakened PD before they do too much damage or gain control over new forces other than the Varuata army they created.

The Macross fleets really didn't stand much of a chance against the the PD once Grabil was awakened. Pretty tough to take on a super agile buster cannon with the ability to do physical damage to a capital ship's hull... Then you add Sivil's ability to destroy ships merely by punching holes in the fuselages and bulkheads, its a fairly lethal combination for a fleet of maybe a dozen or so ships, composed of about 2/3 civilians.

[Mr March]

Okay, can anyone tell me what episode the Super Packs for the VF-17 makes an appearance in Macross 7?

[azrael]

Okay, can anyone tell me what episode the Super Packs for the VF-17 makes an appearance in Macross 7?

Ep. 44, 48, 49.

[Mr March]

Thank you azrael

[Valkyrie addict]

Ep. 44, 48, 49.

and it's butt ugly hehehe