Polite Questions on Macross7

[Black Valkyrie]

Ladies and Gentlemen. Nekki Basara sings "MACROSS"

Heard it before not bad.

[Lightning]

I personally like it better than the original. But, nostalgia aside, I was never a big fan of the original opening. Just a bit too cheesy for my taste

same here, but that was pretty good.

[DestroidDefender]

It's taken a couple weeks but I've had a chance now to watch Dynamite 7.

I'm really not sure what to think of it yet. I found most of the space scenes so short and frantic I couldn't tell what was going on. Obviously they are trying to present some kind of profound environmental message - but I didn't get it the first time through.

And then there is this sub-plot about Mylene being seduced and drugged by a woman. And it's played for laughs. I know Japan is a distinct culture but is drugging and raping a minor really taken that lightly? What would have been the consequences for that woman. I can't help but remember Miria crushing that Zentran's head in DYRL.

And at the end Basara flys right by Mylene and folds out. I know Basara is the brooding idealist and we're not supposed to fully understand him. But then Gamlin does the same - ignoring Mylene. So what does that mean? Gamlin's in love with Basara now?

On the other hand I liked the music. The Basara version of Angel Voice was quite moving. Even if I didn't understand WTF was going on with the whales.

Having "Seen it All" now (at least the TV series - I haven't played the video games), I have to say all the series have their good points and weaknesses.

[azrael]

And at the end Basara flys right by Mylene and folds out. I know Basara is the brooding idealist and we're not supposed to fully understand him. But then Gamlin does the same - ignoring Mylene. So what does that mean? Gamlin's in love with Basara now?

Think of it this way, where ever Basara goes, you can be sure Gamlin and Mylene will be right behind him...to help or lecture him....That scene was a crowd teaser which goes with question of who does she chose, to which we will get no real answer.

[Keith]

Dynamite had the dual role of having an environmental message, and being a precursser for Zero. On the surface it's saying hunting for sport/resources is bad, but if you look a little more closely, you'll see yet another one of the Protoculture's "tests" that have been in play since 7.

Macross 7 had its test of "taming" the Zentradi if you will. The only reason that the Protoculture computer/remnant spoke with the 7 fleet was because Mylene was present, and a being born of both human & Zentradi blood.

Dynamite had the Ginga Kujira, who's organs were harvestable as fold engines, and were drawn Zola, a planet which also had Protoculture intervention. With Basara's help they were able to charge up enough to break the cycle they'd been stuck in.

Zero of course had the AFOS, and humanity just "barely" passed its test of evolving past strictly warlike tendancies.

As for Mylene in Dynamite, her minor plot revolved around her continuing to be naive, and in trying to go off on her own, getting herself into more trouble. Basically, before Fire Bomber officially disbanded, Mylene went off on her own solo career, ignoring the lessons she'd already learned, and getting caught up in the idol side more than the music side. It wasn't so much about her nearly getting raped, as it was about her not realizng she still needed others.

[Zinjo]

Dynamite had the dual role of having an environmental message, and being a precursser for Zero. On the surface it's saying hunting for sport/resources is bad, but if you look a little more closely, you'll see yet another one of the Protoculture's "tests" that have been in play since 7.

If that is indeed the case then it's yet another reason why it was best that the PC were wiped out.

Arrogance like that will always be balanced with annhilliation...

"We are so godlike that we can presume to 'test' instead of 'teach' sentient beings"...bye bye...

[Keith]

If that is indeed the case then it's yet another reason why it was best that the PC were wiped out.

Arrogance like that will always be balanced with annhilliation...

"We are so godlike that we can presume to 'test' instead of 'teach' sentient beings"...bye bye...

That's just it, the Protoculture by that point knew they were on the way out. They left tests to clean up any potential messes they left behind, should humans follow their same path.

[Zinjo]

That's just it, the Protoculture by that point knew they were on the way out. They left tests to clean up any potential messes they left behind, should humans follow their same path.

Why?

or better yet...

Why Bother?

[Keith]

It's a form of taking responsability for their actions, the PC finally coming to their senses after millenia of constant war.

[Zinjo]

It's a form of taking responsability for their actions, the PC finally coming to their senses after millenia of constant war.

I don't subscribe to that idea of "testing" as much as a device left behind to "protect" the human population against agressors (possibly from space). If a society is truly altruistic it would not leave a doomsday device behind on a developing world in case it became aggressive but rather a guardian against a known alien force and possilby an archival device to teach the story of the ultimate demise of the PC as a lesson to the world.

One could speculate that if the AFOS was a guardian device and remained deactivated until the Zentreadi arrived, Space War 1, could have turned out much differently. Possibly with the destruction of both space fleets or just the Zents.

[eugimon]

I don't subscribe to that idea of "testing" as much as a device left behind to "protect" the human population against agressors (possibly from space). If a society is truly altruistic it would not leave a doomsday device behind on a developing world in case it became aggressive but rather a guardian against a known alien force and possilby an archival device to teach the story of the ultimate demise of the PC as a lesson to the world.

One could speculate that if the AFOS was a guardian device and remained deactivated until the Zentreadi arrived, Space War 1, could have turned out much differently. Possibly with the destruction of both space fleets or just the Zents.

I think the conversation between the AFOS and Sara, makes it pretty clear that the AFOS was a doomsday weapon, left to ensure that a malevolent humanity never reached the stars. IMO, PC wanted to ensure that none of their "children" ended up repeating the sins of the parents.

[sketchley]

I think the conversation between the AFOS and Sara, makes it pretty clear that the AFOS was a doomsday weapon, left to ensure that a malevolent humanity never reached the stars. IMO, PC wanted to ensure that none of their "children" ended up repeating the sins of the parents.

Isn't it implied (if not directly stated) that the AFOS (or a similar device) has been used in Earth's past to wipe out preceeding civilizations? I think that was shown in the last episode of Macross 0, if memory serves.

[Zinjo]

Isn't it implied (if not directly stated) that the AFOS (or a similar device) has been used in Earth's past to wipe out preceeding civilizations? I think that was shown in the last episode of Macross 0, if memory serves.

Not that I recall.

What is implied is that the Birdman/AFOS is a very powerful "being" of legend that is to be feared and it appears to be awakened by conflict or the results of conflict (wreckage, blood, etc...), not much more is revealed.

However it did seem to have the ability to induce hallucinations in it's pilot, for reasons not explained, possibly an interface enhancer of some kind?...

[eugimon]

I don't think it was supposed to be a hallucination, but the ability to see the emotional condition of the people/events around her.

[Zinjo]

I don't think it was supposed to be a hallucination, but the ability to see the emotional condition of the people/events around her.

That's debatable....

[eugimon]

That's debatable....

I think there's a strong argument for it, she only recognizes shin after he stops trying to attack the afos.

[Max is a Genius]

It's me or the AFOS looked like an Evil serie zentradi like the big winged protodevil in M7 ?

[Keith]

That wasn't hallucination, that was pure "Kudun" vision! Pehraps a variatin on Spiritia detecting, i.e. instead of just purely reading power level, reading the emotional intent of your surroundings.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Keith

[azrael]

It's me or the AFOS looked like an Evil serie zentradi like the big winged protodevil in M7 ?

Considering AFOS was made by Protoculture and the Evil series was made by Protoculture..... I think you can put the rest together...

[eugimon]

Considering AFOS was made by Protoculture and the Evil series was made by Protoculture..... I think you can put the rest together...

protoculture weren't very creative?

[Keith]

I think the AFOS looked more like one of the Ginga Kujira myself...

[sketchley]

I don't think Kazutaka Miyatake did the AFOS design. He did do the Ginga Kujira, Protodevlin, and the Ghost Fighter from Macross Zero.

Though, given the limited literature spawned by Macross Zero (the only art book per se appears in the back half of Tenjin Hidetaka's Valkyries), it is possible that he designed the AFOS as well.

[Valkyrie addict]

the AFOS looked like a big ass opera singingnasty angry flower to me that eats reaction weapons for breakfast

we asume the AFOS is the doing of the Protoculture, but it's never mentioned on Macross zero, any other Macross series or the compendium, maybe it was the doing of another highly advanced civilization, the Protoculture stuff were more 'mechanic' the AFOS was more 'organic', maybe in the new macross series we can get and answer to this, who's to say we weren't tampered by another alien civilization also...

[eugimon]

well, it's strongly implied that it's PC in origin. AFOS says it was left by the people who made humans, to make sure humans were nice and sweet before they hit the stars. In previous shows, we know that humans were engineed by the protoculture. So while it's not spelled out, it's a pretty clearly implied relationship. And while you're right, there could have been further or earlier genetic tinkering by someone/thing else other than protoculture... well, there's absolutely no evidence to support that claim. Nor does it makes sense from a story telling perspective. Why lay down all this mythology and background and then suddenly come in and change it all? It makes more sense to continue to develop what was already started, what has been explored in SDFM, DYRL and M7.

Also, very little of PC's technology has actually been seen, and since they were masters of genetic manipulation, it's not unreasonable that their technology would have a very organic feel.

[Keith]

The AFOS has a human bloodtype, and we know from general history, that the Protoculture were the "only" major race originating from this galaxy during their reign.

[Zinjo]

That wasn't hallucination, that was pure "Kudun" vision! Pehraps a variatin on Spiritia detecting, i.e. instead of just purely reading power level, reading the emotional intent of your surroundings.

Is not a "vision" a hallucination??

Sara didn't stop attacking Shin even after he stopped attacking her, she was still caught up in the machine induced hallucination, it wasn't until she recognized him directly that she ceased the attack.

I tend to believe the AFOS was a Evil series bio-weapon that required a pilot as opposed to the autonomous "first batch" that went terribly wrong... One could compare the Ghost X9 of Mac Plus as the human equivalent to the PC's Proto Devlin. Only the PD were much worse.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Zinjo

[eugimon]

Is not a "vision" a hallucination??

Sara didn't stop attacking Shin even after he stopped attacking her, she was still caught up in the machine induced hallucination, it wasn't until she recognized him directly that she ceased the attack.

vision and hallucination can have similar meanings, that the subject is viewing or experiencing something that is not real, or imagined. However, the term vision is more often associated with the positive while hallucination is used more to desribed visions produced by mental imbalance or physical imbalance due to drugs or other outside inlfuence.

However, the way Keith used the word, it just means to view. In this case, AFOS is a type of sight, such as infrared. Sara is not imagining events. She sees the kadun of the pilots and threats around her and she reacts accordingly. She does not see what is not there, instead she is seeing the emtional context of the events and people around her. Notice, it's only when shin trusts sara and jettisons his weapons, does she see him. And afterwards, while she's talking with him from the cockpit of the AFOS, she sees the reaction warheads fired, yet she still sees the kadun of the carrier and the warhead. If she were hallucinating, then she would not have seen the kadun of the carrier, since she was already awakened by the arrival of shin.

The AFOS was not evil. When it is awakened, it acts Sara SPECIFIC questions about the state of humanity. Have they achieved space fairing technology, are they still fighting each other. It's only when these two conditions are met, does it go into extinction level mode. Also, if it were evil, why would it allow Sara to save shin and the Mayan islands by containing the reaction weapon effects? The AFOS was a tool, it was left by the PC to make sure humans didn't repeat their mistakes. It's pretty much spelled out in the show.

Edited July 16, 2007 by eugimon

[Keith]

vision and hallucination can have similar meanings, that the subject is viewing or experiencing something that is not real, or imagined. However, the term vision is more often associated with the positive while hallucination is used more to desribed visions produced by mental imbalance or physical imbalance due to drugs or other outside inlfuence.

However, the way Keith used the word, it just means to view. In this case, AFOS is a type of sight, such as infrared. Sara is not imagining events. She sees the kadun of the pilots and threats around her and she reacts accordingly. She does not see what is not there, instead she is seeing the emtional context of the events and people around her. Notice, it's only when shin trusts sara and jettisons his weapons, does she see him. And afterwards, while she's talking with him from the cockpit of the AFOS, she sees the reaction warheads fired, yet she still sees the kadun of the carrier and the warhead. If she were hallucinating, then she would not have seen the kadun of the carrier, since she was already awakened by the arrival of shin.

The AFOS was not evil. When it is awakened, it acts Sara SPECIFIC questions about the state of humanity. Have they achieved space fairing technology, are they still fighting each other. It's only when these two conditions are met, does it go into extinction level mode. Also, if it were evil, why would it allow Sara to save shin and the Mayan islands by containing the reaction weapon effects? The AFOS was a tool, it was left by the PC to make sure humans didn't repeat their mistakes. It's pretty much spelled out in the show.

Word

[Zinjo]

The AFOS was not evil. When it is awakened, it acts Sara SPECIFIC questions about the state of humanity. Have they achieved space fairing technology, are they still fighting each other. It's only when these two conditions are met, does it go into extinction level mode. Also, if it were evil, why would it allow Sara to save shin and the Mayan islands by containing the reaction weapon effects? The AFOS was a tool, it was left by the PC to make sure humans didn't repeat their mistakes. It's pretty much spelled out in the show.

Good points, however, I didn't mean the AFOS was "evil" as in having a malevolent spirit, but EVIL as in the EVIL series of bio weapons created by the PC.

The principal difference between this one compared to the PD is that the AFOS required a pilot, a moral center if you will, whereas the original EVILs were autonomous beings, similar to the Zentreadi. Which as it turned out was the best design characteristic the PC could have built. Without the pilot, the AFOS would follow it's programming to the letter without any consideration for any redeeming qualities a race might possess.

Which is why I tend to balk at the idea of the doomsday weapon idea of the AFOS, mostly in terms of the PC setting a higher standard for their experiments than they set for themselves... That such an advanced race at the brink of it's own destruction still didn't learn how to teach it's legacies as opposed to destroy them as they were about to be destroyed.

I find it rather 2 dimensional of them to do such a thing, which one has to assume they did to the hundreds (or thousands) of worlds they bioengineered.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

Correct name: "Evil Series"

See: http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/...0000/index.html

(Before anyone raises pitchforks and ilk, note the capitalization denoting a proper noun composed of two words.)

Edited July 17, 2007 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

a Evil series bio-weapon

Like I said....

[sketchley]

Psst: did you see the edit?

[Zinjo]

Psst: did you see the edit?

Yes I did, however, my post is not diminished by it, the name originally posted is not obscured by the lack of a second capital letter.

In future, I will endeavour to be sure all my Capitals are in place along with crossed "t"s and dotted "i"s...

Who am I kidding, I probably won't care, so long as I am clear....

[eugimon]

Dude! there's a huge difference between Evil and evil. you were totally not clear that you were refering to Evil and not evil.

Thanks to sketch for clearing up the confusion.

I still disagree that AFOS is a left over Evil though, the AFOS in no way looks like it was "based on the zentradi" It seems more like it has rudimentary AI, (like the control room of the PC city in DYRL) and has some biological components as well as an interface, like bodolza's flagship. The Evil series weapons should be in line with what we've seen, Sivil and Glavil.

Edited July 17, 2007 by eugimon

[sketchley]

What's in a name? A LOT!

Evil Series = what became the Protodevlin.

Evil series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to a series of something called Evil.

evil Series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to something called Series which is evil.

evil series = nothing to do with Macross! It is referring to a series (possibly a movie or TV one) which is evil.

Not providing the correct name not only diminishes ones posts, it also fundamentally changes the meaning. It's like referring to the President as the president. Post what you mean, not something resembling what you mean. It fights off confusion; unless if you're being deliberately arguementative again. In that case: everyone, don't feed the troll!

PS Eugimon, I had to read your post twice to confirm exactly what you're talking about. The dual word, dual capitalization, especially in the name Evil Series, is applicable to one and all. It's terms like this that leave me scratching my head as to why people have chosen to romanize Macross terms in non-standard ways. Personally, I prefer the standard Hepburn romanization, and in this case, the result would create something that would still be understood without proper capitalization.

Edited July 18, 2007 by sketchley