Arm FAST packs on the VF-1

[Graham]

We all know that the arm mounted FAST packs on the VF-1 each hold 3 micro-missiles. However, those 3 micro-missiles cant fill the entire internal volume of the arm FAST packs, so I've been wondering recently what the remainder of the internal space is used for?

The Macross Compendium is not much help as it has only the following to say about the arm FAST packs on the vF-1: -

six micro-missiles in two NP-AR-01 micro-missile launcher pods (mounted rearwardly under center ventral section in Fighter mode or on lower arm sections in GERWALK and Battroid mode).

If we treat the cut-away picture from the DYRL Gold Book poster as correct (see pic below), then some of the internal volume is obviously used for exhaust ducting to vent the exhaust gasses when the micro-missiles are fired, but that still leaves some free internal space.

My theory is that the extra space inside the arm FAST packs is used for one or more of the following options: -

1) ECM gear.

2) Chaff and Flare launchers.

3) Extra 55mm ammunition for the GU-11 gunpod. This makes sense to me as the GU-11 is mounted directly on the arm FAST packs in fighter mode anyway, so it would not be difficult to link extra ammunition stored in the FAST packs to the GU-11's external feed port. The Gu-11 certainly needs extra ammo as a normal load stored in the gunpods internal helical magazine is only 200 rounds!

Any other theories?

Graham

Picture fromMacross Mecha Designs.

[kensei]

Just a question if I may Graham, if those arm mounted FAST packs contain micromissiles, then why are they SO much bigger than the micromissiles in the FAST pack boosters?

I support only your second theory. I've read that the GU-11 doesn't use 'clips' of ammo and can only reload back at base. I agree with you how it is a shame as its payload is quite paltry!

It could support ECM gear. That wouldn't be such a bad idea. But isn't the VE-1 Elintseeker specialised in that area?

EDIT Oops...sorry about the first question. I thought I was in the Toy forum! I was thinking about the 1/48 VF-1!

Edited October 15, 2003 by kensei

[robokochan]

Yeah they are alittle bigger....maybe they should be called "Middle-Missiles".

personally I think Graham is right about the extra Clips. They YF-19 Holds extra Clips in the Shield. So it would be safe to say that the extra space is filled with extra clips. Or maybe it is Survival equipment? Spare parts?

Rob MN

[kensei]

I don't know about spare parts, but seeing as the FAST pack equipment is able to be jettisoned at the push of a button, they wouldn't keep survival equipment there. Somewhere in the cockpit there's a compartment that holds a couple of days food, flares and other stuff. Only if that's what you mean by survival gear though MN.

[robokochan]

I don't know I was just guessing

I guess the most logical would be extra clips.

[Graham]

Just a question if I may Graham, if those arm mounted FAST packs contain micromissiles, then why are they SO much bigger than the micromissiles in the FAST pack boosters?

I support only your second theory. I've read that the GU-11 doesn't use 'clips' of ammo and can only reload back at base. I agree with you how it is a shame as its payload is quite paltry!

It could support ECM gear. That wouldn't be such a bad idea. But isn't the VE-1 Elintseeker specialised in that area?

EDIT Oops...sorry about the first question. I thought I was in the Toy forum! I was thinking about the 1/48 VF-1!

Actually, I'm not saying that the FAST packs could hold extra clips of ammo for the Gu-11 gunpod as it does not use clips, but rather an extension of the ammo belt. In the GU-11, the 200 rouns of ammo are stored wraped around the barrels in a helical (spiral?). It would be fairly easy just to rig an extended feed mechanism in the form of a powered feed chute or belt, which just keeps feeding extra rounds from the FAST pack directly into the gunpod. Basically auto loading extra ammo into the gunpod.

The VE-1 was basically for Electroinc Intelligence gathering, not ECM. Most modern warplanes carry somesort of ECM pod.

Graham

[robokochan]

In the picture just underneath the 3rd Missile...what are those? (about 10 vertical sections?)

[Gyges]

I would simply wager that the arm-mounted FAST packs used the leftover space for structural reinforcement, i.e., armour. After all, the only time (that I recall) we ever see a Valkyrie use the NP-AR-01 is when Hikaru used them to parry a helluva lot of missiles. Sure, his arms were blown off, but the common designation of the FAST packs as "armour" seemed to be appropriate in that instance at least.

[Anubis]

I'd go with either extra gunpod ammo or just armor.

[Graham]

In the picture just underneath the 3rd Missile...what are those? (about 10 vertical sections?)

That's what makes me think extra gunpod ammo.

BTW, love the new avatar.

Graham

[robokochan]

I'd go with either extra gunpod ammo or just armor.

Thanks G-Man And yes that is me....

[Gyges]

That's what makes me think extra gunpod ammo.

That looks like a ventral exhaust, to me.

[Mr March]

What about extra fuel.

In fighter mode, the arm sections are attached directly to the leg/engines of the fighter. Wouldn't be hard to connect them for fuel distribution that same as the outer leg/engine FAST packs. Also, every other piece of the FAST pack system contains fuel, so why not the arms as well. In the picture provided, the solid section beneath and behind the extra-sized micro missiles looks a lot like a tank as opposed to anything else.

Edited October 15, 2003 by Mr March

[mechaninac]

Now for my 2 cents...those vertical sections remind me of a heat dissipator similar to what you see sitting on top of your CPU chip. So, I would hazzard a guess that the internal structure contains a loading mechanism for the third missile, a recoil suppressor and gas exaust integrated system, some avionics package to control the works since the unit is an add-on and not an integral part of the VF-1 design, extra thick armor as previously mentioned, and, judging by the picture, some small extra unused space.

[Yohsho]

From the picture, I would say that the vertical slats are extra rounds and the big ciricle thing in the back of it would be a heat expeller thing.

[ewilen]

For anyone who's wondering (like me), 200 rounds in the gunpod may or may not be a small capacity. I just checked and found the following at the FAS site.

F-14: 676 rounds

F-15A-D: 940 rounds

F-15E: 500 rounds

F-16:500 rounds (located the info on a different page)

F/A-18: 578 rounds (elsewhere it says 520 rounds)

However, the GU-11 gunpod on the Valkyrie probably has much greater hitting power since it uses 55 mm rounds vs. 20 mm for the Vulcan carried on modern US jets. The GU-11 also has a much lower rate of fire than the Vulcan: 1200 rounds per minute vs. 6000-7200 rpm for the Vulcan. So a 1-second burst of the GU-11 will use up 20 rounds, or about 1/10 the capacity; a 1-second burst of the Vulcan will use 100-120 rounds--a greater percentage of the capacity of any US fighter. One point about the Vulcan is that due to the design, it takes 0.3-0.4 seconds to begin firing after the trigger is pulled--arguably it needs its high rate of fire to compensate. (Because of this spinup delay, the actual # of rounds fired in a short burst will be less than 100--maybe just 47 or 72.)

Other comparisons: the Tornado carries two 27 mm Mauser BK 27 cannon with 180 rounds each, firing at 1700 rpm. The Mig-29 and Su-27 use the GSh-30-1 30 mm cannon, 1800 rpm, and only about 150 rounds carried in each model.

http://www.f-16.net/reference/armament/m61a1.html is a good article on the Vulcan. Check out the sound clip of a Vulcan firing!

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Han...un/fgun-po.html is another good article on jet fighter cannons.

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text...xt/akandata.htm and http://www.adl.gatech.edu/classes/dci/aero...ghter_data.html are other sources I used.

[Aurel Tristen]

The NP-AR-01 (addition left and right arm "super parts") armored weapons are merely micro-missile launchers. They hold 3 larger-sized Crasher Grenade/Micro Missiles each. Within the structure of the launcher at the base there is a long duct for exhaust expelling for the lower missile (see image) and a series of vents. On the side at the rear of the launcher is a motor for the high-speed exhaust expelling fan and on the butt-end there is a service hatch for maintenance of the exhaust/launch system. You can also see the special hard point connectors atop the launcher: http://manuals.macrossmecha.info/vf1/fact/npar01.jpg

[Aurel Tristen]

The NP-AR-01 (addition left and right arm "super parts") armored weapons are merely micro-missile launchers. They hold 3 larger-sized Crasher Grenade/Micro Missiles each. Within the structure of the launcher at the base there is a long duct for exhaust expelling for the lower missile (see image) and a series of vents. On the side at the rear of the launcher is a motor for the high-speed exhaust expelling fan and on the butt-end there is a service hatch for maintenance of the exhaust/launch system. You can also see the special hard point connectors atop the launcher: http://manuals.macrossmecha.info/vf1/fact/npar01.jpg

[kensei]

Wow, you learn something new every day. So they're not really Micromissiles at all, they're Greandes. Yeeeheah, just once I would have liked to see how a battlepod blows up when a VF-1 sticks his arm at it and shoots it in his face. KABOOM!

[JELEINEN]

Interesting; each one of the missiles is different in that picture. Also, it looks like they could've easily fit another missile on the bottom

[briscojr84]

Interesting; each one of the missiles is different in that picture. Also, it looks like they could've easily fit another missile on the bottom

Your right I never noticed that before, I wonder if it was done on purpose or if someone wasn't paying attention while they were drawing.

[Gatillero PR]

Does anyone know if those missiles can be fired backwards in fighter mode?

[williwoods]

nothing seems to be obstructing its way...........................so......................seems quite possible

[Graham]

Does anyone know if those missiles can be fired backwards in fighter mode?

I would think that in fighter mode, rear-hemisphere defence would be the primary purpose of the arm missiles.

However, if the VF-1 mounts UMM-7 micro missile pods as well, it also has the capability of backwards firing as the rear-most 5 micro-missile in each UMM-7 pod also face backwards.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear. Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided? VF-1's sure don't have rear radar. (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space. Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas. (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

[Aurel Tristen]

Wow, you learn something new every day. So they're not really Micromissiles at all, they're Greandes. Yeeeheah, just once I would have liked to see how a battlepod blows up when a VF-1 sticks his arm at it and shoots it in his face. KABOOM!

They are micro missiles. Crasher Grenades can be classified as a type of micro missile.

[Aurel Tristen]

Does anyone know if those missiles can be fired backwards in fighter mode?

I would think that in fighter mode, rear-hemisphere defence would be the primary purpose of the arm missiles.

However, if the VF-1 mounts UMM-7 micro missile pods as well, it also has the capability of backwards firing as the rear-most 5 micro-missile in each UMM-7 pod also face backwards.

Graham

Something else that Hasegawa screwed up on....

[Graham]

Does anyone know if those missiles can be fired backwards in fighter mode?

I would think that in fighter mode, rear-hemisphere defence would be the primary purpose of the arm missiles.

However, if the VF-1 mounts UMM-7 micro missile pods as well, it also has the capability of backwards firing as the rear-most 5 micro-missile in each UMM-7 pod also face backwards.

Graham

Something else that Hasegawa screwed up on....

So did Yamato on the 1/60, but at least they got it right on the 1/48

Graham

[Graham]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear. Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided? VF-1's sure don't have rear radar. (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space. Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas. (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

Specs for the VF-0's micro-missles indicate that they are heat seeking (IR), so presumably the VF-1's micro-missile are heat seeking as well.

Graham

[Aurel Tristen]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear.  Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided?  VF-1's sure don't have rear radar.  (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space.  Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas.  (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

Specs for the VF-0's micro-missles indicate that they are heat seeking (IR), so presumably the VF-1's micro-missile are heat seeking as well.

Graham

Depends on the missile..... and source qouted ^^;;

Oh yeah, speaking of the VF-Zero's micro missiles - - here's a small tidbit. I drew this side view schematic of the GH-30B.

(Scroll down) Note that the entry isn't done yet.

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...siles/gh30.html

[Graham]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear.  Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided?  VF-1's sure don't have rear radar.  (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space.  Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas.  (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

Specs for the VF-0's micro-missles indicate that they are heat seeking (IR), so presumably the VF-1's micro-missile are heat seeking as well.

Graham

Depends on the missile..... and source qouted ^^;;

Oh yeah, speaking of the VF-Zero's micro missiles - - here's a small tidbit. I drew this side view schematic of the GH-30B.

(Scroll down) Note that the entry isn't done yet.

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...siles/gh30.html

Interesting. They seem comparitively long compared to most other micro- missiles.

The use of fins on micro-missiles is a first as well. It would be interesting to know the length and diameter of the missiles, but I doubt Kawamori will ever provide that information.

Graham

[JB0]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear.  Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided?  VF-1's sure don't have rear radar.  (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space.  Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas.  (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

Specs for the VF-0's micro-missles indicate that they are heat seeking (IR), so presumably the VF-1's micro-missile are heat seeking as well.

Graham

Or maybe they use overtech EM field detection devices.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Göönk]

Interesting; each one of the missiles is different in that picture.  Also, it looks like they could've easily fit another missile on the bottom

I think it could be that the second missile in the top cavity can be covered with heat shield.

Also, missiles seem to be surounded by some kind of cylinders. Maybe the launching tube, to guide them at the launch. but the top tube is shorter than the bottom one. I believe they are the same missiles. imagine, in middle of a combat "Shall I launch grenade model A or model B" ? it doesn't make sense in my opinion.

Maybe the armor is filled with electronics to launch the micro-missiles / nades ?

Or maybe is it a SPEAKER ! (Minmay propaganda!!) it looks like a speaker.

Edited October 18, 2003 by Göönk

[imode]

Well, the big thing is locking on to something to the rear.  Are UMM-1's heat-seeking or radar-guided?  VF-1's sure don't have rear radar.  (Flankers do)

Anyways, if there's still any debate left, I vote for ECM stuff for any extra space.  Every single F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 upgrade ever involves more ECM stuff and antennas.  (One of the primary reasons it's so hard to tell F-15A's from F-15C's nowadays is that F-15A's have been upgraded with nearly every antenna and ECM bump that the C's have)

Specs for the VF-0's micro-missles indicate that they are heat seeking (IR), so presumably the VF-1's micro-missile are heat seeking as well.

Graham

Depends on the missile..... and source qouted ^^;;

Oh yeah, speaking of the VF-Zero's micro missiles - - here's a small tidbit. I drew this side view schematic of the GH-30B.

(Scroll down) Note that the entry isn't done yet.

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...siles/gh30.html

Interesting. They seem comparitively long compared to most other micro- missiles.

The use of fins on micro-missiles is a first as well. It would be interesting to know the length and diameter of the missiles, but I doubt Kawamori will ever provide that information.

Graham

Maybe it collapses, the thinner parts into the wider, and the fins slide out like the larger missiles that we commonly see on the VF-1.

Then again, there's no REAL purpose for that, except that it might look incredibly cool.

[Aurel Tristen]

The GH-30B may indeed have a collapsible body.... and if it does then the purpose would be to conserve space. Folded/retracted control surfaces and a shorter body of the micro missile would allow for more missiles to be stored than ones that did not have these features.