Fallout 3

[Radd]

For the record, I'd never played any of the previous Fallout games and the level cap bothered me. I don't believe it has anything to do with whether or not someone played the previous games. Lots of gamers simply love to explore when handed a nice, large sandbox world.

[mikeszekely]

For the record, I'd never played any of the previous Fallout games and the level cap bothered me. I don't believe it has anything to do with whether or not someone played the previous games. Lots of gamers simply love to explore when handed a nice, large sandbox world.

Yeah, but do you think most people who played Fallout 3 played it that much? My friend said he was about 16 when he finished the game. I know I spent three weeks avoiding the main quest, but decided to get down to it within the last week. If I don't look for anything else to do, I guess I'll hit 17.

I just left Raven Rock with President Eden's vial, if you were wondering where I'm at

The problem inherent to setting an RPG (especially one modeled after a pen-and-paper system, where level caps are usually lower to begin with) in a large, sandbox world is that it's going to go both ways. Some people are going to feel that they explored enough and finish the game without hitting the cap, and others are going to try to see as much of the world as possible and hit the cap long before the end of the game. You can't please everyone.

[Radd]

I disagree. You can easily please everyone in this particular case. It's all about balancing the level structure and enemies one faces. Fallout 3 already does the latter, introducing more powerful enemies as you grow in level. Spreading out the amount one improves per level, and simultaneously raising the amount one can improve in total would keep it possible to beat the game at a lower level, for those just going through the main quest, while continuing to reward those who push to see the entire world. Make the highest levels, we'll say 30, increasingly more difficult to attain, pretty much requiring one to see the entire map to attain it, with fewer skill points to distribute do that it would still be impossible to max out all skills without a good combination of bobble heads and books. It would still be worth it to players for the additional perks.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Radd

[mikeszekely]

I disagree. You can easily please everyone in this particular case. It's all about balancing the level structure and enemies one faces. Fallout 3 already does the latter, introducing more powerful enemies as you grow in level. Spreading out the amount one improves per level, and simultaneously raising the amount one can improve in total would keep it possible to beat the game at a lower level, for those just going through the main quest, while continuing to reward those who push to see the entire world. Make the highest levels, we'll say 30, increasingly more difficult to attain, pretty much requiring one to see the entire map to attain it, with fewer skill points to distribute do that it would still be impossible to max out all skills without a good combination of bobble heads and books. It would still be worth it to players for the additional perks.

How does that please everybody? Due to the way Fallout scales enemies, you can already beat the game well below the level cap, but Bethesda chose to make the level cap attainable anyway by an average player who does an average amount of exploration and side quests. Emphasis on average, here. Under your scenario, you have Bethesda nerfing characters at levels 1-20 to create another tier of levels and perks that most players won't attain as a reward to those who play to obsessively discover every nook and cranny in one playthrough. If it was the developers' intention to increase the replay value by designing a world where most players would finish the game without seeing everything (giving them new experiences in subsequent playthroughs), why should they reward that style of play? It's enough that players have the freedom to do it.

[Radd]

No, they do not wind up nerfing characters under level 20. I'm not at all certain how you come to that conclusion. My scenario primarily involves allowing people to level past 20, though with fewer points to spread around as they reach the highest levels. So there's diminishing returns as you level up further, and it takes a lot longer to achieve those levels, but there's still that feeling of advancement and reward, as well as attaining additional perks. Someone who only plans to run the main story with a moderate amount of exploration shouldn't be upset that they don't manage to hit the level cap.

[mikeszekely]

No, they do not wind up nerfing characters under level 20. I'm not at all certain how you come to that conclusion.

I'll let you answer your own question.

My scenario primarily involves allowing people to level past 20, though with fewer points to spread around as they reach the highest levels.

So there's diminishing returns as you level up further, and it takes a lot longer to achieve those levels

Fewer points to spread means characters under level 20 wouldn't be as powerful as they are, so that obsessive types can get at 30 what the designers (likely following the tabletop rules) gave at 20. How is that not nerfing?

Someone who only plans to run the main story with a moderate amount of exploration shouldn't be upset that they don't manage to hit the level cap.

No, the average player should hit the level cap near the end of the game. The average player isn't someone who does nothing but the main quest, nor is it someone who tries to do everything in one run. They're both outliers. The game allows both outliers to play their way, but it rightfully caters to the a happy median.

[wolfx]

No, they do not wind up nerfing characters under level 20. I'm not at all certain how you come to that conclusion. My scenario primarily involves allowing people to level past 20, though with fewer points to spread around as they reach the highest levels. So there's diminishing returns as you level up further, and it takes a lot longer to achieve those levels, but there's still that feeling of advancement and reward, as well as attaining additional perks. Someone who only plans to run the main story with a moderate amount of exploration shouldn't be upset that they don't manage to hit the level cap.

I agree. In fact, I think the main quest should be harder if not impossible to complete without at least attaining a minimum player level. Or even simpler, there should be more areas tied to the main quest, in other words, a LONGER main quest with more major areas and towns to explore rather than abandoned buildings and vaults which do not have any factor into the main quest.

On enemies: The Enclave soldiers should be harder to dispatch and there should be more of them around at any one time rather than pockets of 2-3 people.

Another gripe....The Fatman is a nice to use weapon but with its limited ammo and scenarios that require its usage only for the GNR behemoth, there really is no need for this weapon in FO3. It would have been nice if they made an area/scenario which had 40 over death claws swarming at you and the only way to clear it is to nuke them to kingdom come. That said the MIRV Fatman is a equally useless weapon considering how there are no scenarios where you'd actually use it.

[Radd]

Mike, we clearly have different ideas as to what constitutes "nerfing", or you're misunderstanding me. Under the level structure I suggested, level 20 would be maybe marginally less powerful than the current level 20, if touched at all. Ideally I'd rather see the enemy encounters scale up a bit more. It's primarily the over 20 levels that would see fewer and fewer points to spread around, while simultaneously being more difficult to achieve.

I'm not certain the main quest needs to be longer, but it would have been great to see the characters you meet along the way fleshed out a lot more. And also see the characters react more to situations, and how you come to do certain things. For example, I deliberately avoided the main quest on my first play through for the longest time. Eventually, I stumbled onto to part of it, finding a character important to the plot. All the dialogue trees I had with this character assumed that I had done all the previous story events, which left me a little confused. When I arrived at another location I met some people for the first time, but they were people I would have met earlier in the game had I followed the proper story sequence. Many of the dialogue options referenced things that had never happened.

Also, I forget if it was this thread or elsewhere, if the sheriff of Megaton dies, the biggest change to the world is that everyone in town refers to him in the past tense. I know it's a tall order for a game already packed with so much, but it would have been nice if people reacted a bit more to things like that.

[mikeszekely]

Mike, we clearly have different ideas as to what constitutes "nerfing", or you're misunderstanding me. Under the level structure I suggested, level 20 would be maybe marginally less powerful than the current level 20, if touched at all. Ideally I'd rather see the enemy encounters scale up a bit more. It's primarily the over 20 levels that would see fewer and fewer points to spread around, while simultaneously being more difficult to achieve.

Okay, yeah, I was misunderstanding you. I was thinking that you wanted to scale back on what you get at levels 1-20 and leave them to be redistributed at 21-30. Sticking with tabletop gaming rules, what you actually want is something more like epic levels. In that case, I still don't think it's necessary, but the idea is more palatable.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm not certain the main quest needs to be longer, but it would have been great to see the characters you meet along the way fleshed out a lot more. And also see the characters react more to situations, and how you come to do certain things. For example, I deliberately avoided the main quest on my first play through for the longest time. Eventually, I stumbled onto to part of it, finding a character important to the plot. All the dialogue trees I had with this character assumed that I had done all the previous story events, which left me a little confused. When I arrived at another location I met some people for the first time, but they were people I would have met earlier in the game had I followed the proper story sequence. Many of the dialogue options referenced things that had never happened.

I had this exact problem with another quest where I was just exploring and stumbled upon a npc that was obviously part of another quest which I had not began yet, and dialogue trees popped up assuming my player characters already knew stuff that he shouldn't have.

I guess this is the great weakness of an open world game where the person has too much freedom to do stuff out of order or see things before they should be allowed to. I was a big fan of the elder scrolls (started in 96 when daggerfall came out - didn't play arena though) but even as a fan of the series I could see all it faults, yet I still loved what it was trying to achieve and would rather a flawed ambitous attempt at freedom in crpg gaming, than a highly-successful, polished, linear and heavily-directed game. The linear rpg game stuff is tried and tested (just like with other forms of entertainment where you only want to show what the person gets to see not what is around those things) because most games are like that. But the open world games need to solve all these new problems still. I hope in future bethesda find ways around this because this problem forced me to buy the *guidebook for fear I would do something to upset the game. (I could look through quests that I had no knowledge about and see what the previous dialogue involved)

This was the only reason I buy guidebooks: they can give you info on stuff you might not ever see. (not to actually help me "win" the game, but to find out the non-obvious bits and pieces that you'll never see due to the way you did a certain thing (but didn't know of its effect at the time) and can't get oportunities to see it now that you've reached a point of no return.

Ahh well can't complain: they at least managed to reduce the amount of bugs compared to earlier games.

Oh btw, is the construction kit ever going to come out? Last I heard it was still going to be done but after they've handled all the bugs in the main game.

Just for the record I'm against the level cap, and didn't like the idea of not being able to see stuff after the MQ was done. But I think it was intentionally done this way so that if you used your boring starter character, you could replay the game differently with the type of character you are more suited with and see the new things you might have missed with that new character you created. (which is going to be more suited to the player's playing style now that he has a rough idea of the mechanics in the game and how they affect him/her)

*backup for people who already own it

Edited December 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Chowser]

crap, was going to try and finish the game today, after finishing agatha's quest, i went back to the citadel to finish the main quest, but everyone is hostile towards me???

I reloaded, went back in with NO companions, and they're still hostile. I'd hate to have to reload to just after getting out of Raven Rock because I went and did a bunch of quests after that, but if I have to, I have to.

this sucks!

---

ok, i guess maybe it was agatha's music playing in the background making people insane???

I changed radio stations, slept and went back in to the citadel and everyone was fine.

now i am done with good karma, will replay next with neutral karma

Edited December 10, 2008 by Chowser

[wolfx]

If BOS is hostile towards you, does that mean you can never complete the main quest?

[transfan52]

If BOS is hostile towards you, does that mean you can never complete the main quest?

hmm... thats a hard question to answer... maybe but ive never tried it so I don't know... I think that's one of the major flaws this game may have... if you piss off a certain faction integral to the story you may not be able to complete the game.

[Chowser]

I'll check it out, I still have an old save where they are mad at me and i can't do dialogue, but it will do scripted dialogue, so i will try to do that and see what happens.

My next time through, I'm just going to maintain neutral karma, save before an achievement, and get my neutral and evil karma achievements at the same time and only do the quests i missed the first time through.

===

ok, you can still play the main quest with the BoS mad at you. When Sarah asks if you're ready, you have to say yes, so the main quest dialogue will continue, then it plays normal after that.

time to start over

Edited December 10, 2008 by Chowser

[wolfx]

When i meant hostile, i meant they draw their guns and shoot you....not just "mad" at you. I intend to massacre everyone in the BoS on my 2nd run. My 1s run, i killed all the Outcasts. XD

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

In the guidebook it's mentioned that in many towns you wait 3 days and they forget your face and you can go into them without them being angry/attacking.

Some towns they stay permanently in one state though.

[Vostok 7]

The G.E.C.K. (previously known as the TES Construction Set) was released today!

http://fallout.bethsoft.com/eng/downloads/geck.html

Vostok 7

[Radd]

Maybe someone can replace the grey void past Vault 87's door with something, eh? I guess Bethesda never expected anyone would go back there to loot?

[Vostok 7]

Maybe someone can replace the grey void past Vault 87's door with something, eh? I guess Bethesda never expected anyone would go back there to loot?

You mean Vault 87's main door? The one that's highly irradiated? There's definitely stuff in Vault 87, you just have to get to it from another direction

Vostok 7

[Radd]

Right, which is why I suggested Bethesda didn't expect people to go back there. You need to go to Vault 87 to complete the main story, but if you go back later you can find your way all the way to the Vault's main entrance, from the inside. However, if you open the door from the inside, there is literally nothing beyond it. A grey nothingness, and if you walk out into it, it deposits you back near the middle of the Vault's lab level. I've also found that you can get to the Vault's entrance from the outside, basically wearing the Advanced Radiation Suit and popping Rad-X and Rad-Away every single moment, but the door gives you an "Inaccessible" message.

For some reason, with a game that is so incredibly open it's all the more frustrating when you run into things like that.

[Vostok 7]

Right, which is why I suggested Bethesda didn't expect people to go back there. You need to go to Vault 87 to complete the main story, but if you go back later you can find your way all the way to the Vault's main entrance, from the inside. However, if you open the door from the inside, there is literally nothing beyond it. A grey nothingness, and if you walk out into it, it deposits you back near the middle of the Vault's lab level. I've also found that you can get to the Vault's entrance from the outside, basically wearing the Advanced Radiation Suit and popping Rad-X and Rad-Away every single moment, but the door gives you an "Inaccessible" message.

For some reason, with a game that is so incredibly open it's all the more frustrating when you run into things like that.

Ahhh gotcha. I'm sure someone will mod it but others have wondered if it won't be expanded with DLCs since we don't know what they are going to do quite yet.

It's bothered a lot of people though so I'm sure someone will mod it.

Vostok 7

[Radd]

I'd love to see Bethesda release some expansions, just opening up and adding more to explore in the world. I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'll have seen pretty much everything one can see with a good karma character. I found you can actually get into the Jefferson Memorial very easily, and get Col. Autumn's uniform and custom laser pistol. No cheats or anything. I've been trotting all over the wastes with my stalwart ghoul man-servant, my trusty canine sidekick, and my super-mutant chum, using nothing but Autumn's laser pistol for my sidearm.

Though I'm also looking forward to the liberation of Anchorage, and heading up to the Pitt.

[Ginrai]

Uh they are releasing 3 expansions for Fallout 3.

[Radd]

Uh they are releasing 3 expansions for Fallout 3.

Though I'm also looking forward to the liberation of Anchorage, and heading up to the Pitt.

Indeed.

[Ginrai]

Riiight so I don't get it?

[Radd]

Clearly.

[Vostok 7]

Riiight so I don't get it?

He's probably saying he's hoping for a Shivering Isle-sized DLC. The current three planned are apparently Knights of the Nine sized according to information we got (that equates to about 5-6hrs of content, vs. 10+ for Shivering Isle-sized content).

I too hope we get a bigger more encompassing DLC at some point as well, like a whole new area the size of the DC wasteland to explore

Vostok 7

[Radd]

I meant what I said, and said what I meant. "Expansions" in the literal sense,

just opening up and adding more to explore in the world

Rather than just a new game recycling existing assets, I'd love to take my existing character and go out to explore more.

Broken Steel might be something like that, as it's supposed to progress past the end of the game, rather than drop you in another part of the world entirely. Some people are speculating that it will "fix" the awful, nonsensically forced ending Fallout 3 comes with. I suspect it drops you into a new character and lets the horrible ending of the game stand.

[Ginrai]

Broken Steel might be something like that, as it's supposed to progress past the end of the game, rather than drop you in another part of the world entirely. Some people are speculating that it will "fix" the awful, nonsensically forced ending Fallout 3 comes with. I suspect it drops you into a new character and lets the horrible ending of the game stand.

I haven't beaten it yet, but this interview implies that's not the case.

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/937/937202p1.html

[Radd]

Woot! Well, that's certainly good news.

[mikeszekely]

I meant what I said, and said what I meant. "Expansions" in the literal sense,

Rather than just a new game recycling existing assets, I'd love to take my existing character and go out to explore more.

Broken Steel might be something like that, as it's supposed to progress past the end of the game, rather than drop you in another part of the world entirely. Some people are speculating that it will "fix" the awful, nonsensically forced ending Fallout 3 comes with. I suspect it drops you into a new character and lets the horrible ending of the game stand.

You'll be happy to know that Broken Steel is also supposed to up the level cap.

I guess they're gonna charge for the PC versions of the DLC? If that's the case, I hope they pack them together into a boxed expansion.

[wolfx]

I haven't beaten it yet, but this interview implies that's not the case.

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/937/937202p1.html

w00ts! Gauss rifle!

[wolfx]

Operation Anchorage Trailer. Ooooh...stealth suits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvfYKkhJx5I

[promethuem5]

Goddamn 1.1 patch broke my games sound... I never finished this game bc/ even tho I LOVED it, it would crash every hour or so, making extended plays a chore, and now I go and want to get back into it but it's broken more after the patch.

[GreenGuy42]

Operation Anchorage was fun, but woefully short. I do want to note that I completed it at level 20, though, so it was stupid easy.

Gauss rifle is cool as hell, but you can't repair it yourself. Oh, and the armor you get out of the game is glitched. You were supposed to be able to repair it with conventional power armor, but that's not the case. However, it has something in the range of a million health.

Overall, fun, but I wish it wasn't so.. linear.