SW: The Old Republic MMO

[Duke Togo]

Yet there are Star Wars games that have extremely well without being so centered on Jedi?

And not one of the games you listed could be made as an MMO.

But saying having Jedi in an MMO would bring millions into the game is false. SWG tried that

You are correct, they tried adding this single Jedi class into a game filled with non-force users. The idea is to have a game based around and focused on force users. Jedi Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, Weapon Masters, Watchmen, Masters; Sith Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, Marauders, Assassins, Lords... Jedi civil war, Jedi vs Sith, hell, you can even throw the Mandalorians in there. This is where the Star Wars MMO money is. 10 million people don't play WoW to play a castle guard, or a foot soldier. People don't want to play grunts. These KotOR classes fit very neatly into the fantasy archetypes that almost all of the MMOs use.

[Uxi]

It wasnt just, or even primarily, the Jedi thing that borked galaxies. The loss of the player based economy (and the reasons many people had multiple accounts to begin with). The NGE following so soon after the CU (and completely borking the just recently released expansion). The annihilation of entire classes that some players worked for.

They were all well intentioned changes, for the most part, but an utter disregard for the existing subscriber base is what caused Galaxies to sputter.

Even in that restricted setting that's hardly at all conducive to the centerpiece of the Star Wars experience: Jedi versus Sith.

[Warmaker]

And not one of the games you listed could be made as an MMO.

You are correct, they tried adding this single Jedi class into a game filled with non-force users. The idea is to have a game based around and focused on force users. Jedi Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, Weapon Masters, Watchmen, Masters; Sith Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, Marauders, Assassins, Lords... Jedi civil war, Jedi vs Sith, hell, you can even throw the Mandalorians in there. This is where the Star Wars MMO money is. 10 million people don't play WoW to play a castle guard, or a foot soldier. People don't want to play grunts. These KotOR classes fit very neatly into the fantasy archetypes that almost all of the MMOs use.

"And not one of the games you listed could be made as an MMO."

Elements of those HAVE been made into an MMO, namely SWG... but we can all thank SWG's horribly bad execution as a whole. Have you tried the space portion of SWG? It is the last good thing left with SWG with any sort of depth and hasn't been borked too badly due to the CU / NGE. Ship customization, parts, many different ships to pilot. From single-seater stuff like the X-Wing, TIEs, KSE Firespray, to multi-crew ships like the ARC-170, YT-1300, etc. Your X-Wing built up with your parts that you've brought together will not necessarily perform the same as other X-Wings.

You can HAVE the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and whatever conflict in an MMO. You can HAVE the hardware (military or civillian) found in the Star Wars universe in an MMO. You can HAVE players pilot / use all this hardware. Nobody's ever done it with an MMO, even though FPSs do, especially since there's been only 1 Star Wars MMO.

Just as you can envision a game full of Jedi, I can easily envision a Star Wars MMO showing non-Jedi fighting the Clone Wars or Galactic Civil War.

There are, IMO, major faults with being completely centered on Jedi classes. Your level of variety and customization between all these Jedi classes will be limited in the scope of a MMO.

There are only a limited variety of Force Powers if you want to include all the Star Wars productions ever made, games, books, etc included. There's only so many variations of Force Push, Choke, Sith Lightning that you can come up with.

There are only a limited variety of weapons to be had for Jedi. Lightsabers, and anything else for a Jedi does not mesh well with the image.

There are only a limited variety of ways how different Jedi can look. All those robes...

All these Jedi classes... will have to divide a limited variety of Force abilities, all use the SAME weapons, and will traditionally look the same. It's like having a Fantasy game solely composed of several classes of Wizards. People will want variety in their MMO, and having only Jedi will not cut it.

You'll need the other elements of Star Wars to flesh out that MMO. Having a good Jedi aspect to it will be great, but it's making the game to be a 1-trick pony. You'll need non-Jedi classes, because like it or not, just as you want Jedi, others want to be guys like Stormtroopers or Clonetroopers, the next best thing to Jango / Boba Fett, someone like Han Solo, etc. You will need space flight and combat, otherwise reap the whirlwind SWG took when it didn't have space combat in a Star Wars game... esp. in an MMO.

And people don't want to play grunts? I beg to differ. I'll point out earlier that we used to have many "Imperial Trooper" guilds, far more than any guilds making themselves look like a Jedi Order.

Rebel troopers clashing with Imperial Stormtroopers in a Tatooine town screams just as much Star Wars as a Jedi facing down a Sith.

You might be surprised with what you can do with the Star Wars license other than Lightsabers and Jedi. That's all I'm saying. There are more aspects to that franchise than a screenful of lightsabers swinging away. And you will need as many aspects of Star Wars to make it a successful MMO. As great as Lightsabers are, people will want to try out all those blasters and armor they have seen in the movies and such.

[Uxi]

Yeah even KOTOR had Canderous, the Mandalorians, and guys like Carth. TotJ had the Republic Rocket Jumpers, which would be awesome to have in a game. There was also the Sith underlings in KOTOR who had no Force ability (and their TotJ analogue, the Massassi).

The worst about Galaxies is that I kind of like the NGE. I always wanted the game to be just like Jedi Outcast/Academy... with the original class/skill structure and player-based economy. I hope that if/when SWG dies, they let the homebrew community at its code so we can bring some of that stuff back.

[Duke Togo]

There are, IMO, major faults with being completely centered on Jedi classes. Your level of variety and customization between all these Jedi classes will be limited in the scope of a MMO.

But somehow games like Everquest and WoW got away with wizards and warriors, rogues and rangers, yet a Star Wars MMO couldn't? Hell, the reason why we even has these classes is because the KotOR games were based on a pre-existing fantasy game engine. KotOR is ready-made for MMO.

[Duke Togo]

Yeah even KOTOR had Canderous, the Mandalorians, and guys like Carth. TotJ had the Republic Rocket Jumpers, which would be awesome to have in a game. There was also the Sith underlings in KOTOR who had no Force ability (and their TotJ analogue, the Massassi).

Which all totally work. It doesn't have to be force-user exclusive, you just have to be very particular what other classes you stick in the game. a Republic soldier is not going to be able to take on a Jedi, but a Mandalorian could. Hell, even the more skilled bounty hunters. I'm sure you could expand upon this even further, cybernetic beings and the like. Droids. But again, you have to be careful, these classes have to balance out to an extent. No Jedi Masters, no Sith Lords, no cannon fodder foot soldiers. Knock out the extremes at either end.

[Uxi]

If you showed off your power as a Jedi to the wrong crowd, i.e. a major hub in-game, you would be "visible" for Bounty Hunters to take contracts on. The Empire would be hostile and hunt for you (Darth Vader was supposed to, as the main Jedi killer if you became "too visible," but SOE never let this happen ).

I always hoped to see that Darth Vader bit, but yeah never happened. Add in hordes of stormtroopers and then the Inquisitors in between the bounty-hunters and Darth Vader and it should still be a great idea for even a Dark Times-based game to keep Jedi at least on the down-low, if not actually rare.

[Uxi]

Which all totally work. It doesn't have to be force-user exclusive, you just have to be very particular what other classes you stick in the game. a Republic soldier is not going to be able to take on a Jedi, but a Mandalorian could. Hell, even the more skilled bounty hunters. I'm sure you could expand upon this even further, cybernetic beings and the like. Droids. But again, you have to be careful, these classes have to balance out to an extent. No Jedi Masters, no Sith Lords, no cannon fodder foot soldiers. Knock out the extremes at either end.

I never bought the balance issue. Some playing for 3+ years since launch, etc SHOULD be more powerful than the newb just entering a game. Me, as a Sergeant of Marines, am far more proficient with my weapons, skills, and experience than the Boot Private newly in to the Fleet. Sure that gives the goons with no lives an advantage, but that's where the "realism" of the system needs to come in and tactics/strategy should have a play. Interlocking fields of fire, bounding overwatch, entrenched defense, traps, and plain ol raw cunning should be more than able to overcome such measures.

I would definitely think "Jedi Master" or "Sith Lord" style levels should be available... it should just carry the risk of bringing someone like Darth Vader on your head, at which you're almost guaranteed to fail. In the SWG days, I always imagined that Vader shouldn't be unbeatable... but that it just wouldn't be realistically attainable to reach his power level without years and years of game play (say 10 or so), by even the most determined desk jockie with no real life. Luke can do it... but he's Luke and you and I aren't.

[lord_breetai]

But somehow games like Everquest and WoW got away with wizards and warriors, rogues and rangers, yet a Star Wars MMO couldn't? Hell, the reason why we even has these classes is because the KotOR games were based on a pre-existing fantasy game engine. KotOR is ready-made for MMO.

actually the different Jedi-classes such as Watchman and Guardian were originally mentioned in the Tales of The Jedi comics which laid the groundwork for everything in KOTOR, pretty much, as the bulk of it's set less then a century earlier.

[Duke Togo]

I never bought the balance issue. Some playing for 3+ years since launch, etc SHOULD be more powerful than the newb just entering a game.

I don't think that was ever in question. A level 1 toon is not going to be able to say, take on a level 60. Or even a level 5 for that matter.

[Duke Togo]

actually the different Jedi-classes such as Watchman and Guardian were originally mentioned in the Tales of The Jedi comics which laid the groundwork for everything in KOTOR, pretty much, as the bulk of it's set less then a century earlier.

Talking game engine, LB.

[Warmaker]

I always hoped to see that Darth Vader bit, but yeah never happened. Add in hordes of stormtroopers and then the Inquisitors in between the bounty-hunters and Darth Vader and it should still be a great idea for even a Dark Times-based game to keep Jedi at least on the down-low, if not actually rare.

Same here. I was always wanted to hear about, see the hunting down of the few remaining Jedi take place in SWG. I still have the SWG Collector's Edition box set. During the game installation process, you of course get to see images of the game while waiting. There was one image where some fledgling force user / young Jedi was being force choked and suspended in the air by Darth Vader, with lots of Stormtroopers waiting behind him.

The potential was there in SWG to bring a Jedi experience that hasn't been done yet in any Star Wars game. Unlike any other depicted era in a Star Wars game where Jedi are free to roam anywhere out in the open (unless on a world hostile to the Republic), the Imperial era was unique. The Jedi were practically extinct. The few survivors were wise not to make themselves easily known to the Empire, or face a series of attempts on their lives, or worse, attract the attention of Darth Vader himself (along with the forces he can get on a whim). You were hunted. The Empire is looking for you. Some random citizen may want to report you for a reward. The Empire would gladly pay a bounty for your capture or your head. You'd have to contend with opportunistic, hidden Bounty Hunters. It wasn't like you had a Republic / New Republic or Jedi Order to run back to or to call for help. You were on your own. The Order is destroyed. The Republic IS the Empire now. And the Rebel Alliance had their own hides to preserve, with the Empire constantly looking for them.

Back in the heyday of SWG, we all had our ideas about the Jedi hunt, especially for Imperial players to join on such hunts. In the old days of SWG, Jedi were extremely powerful. But they needed that power to survive. Lots of fun going with my buddies as a squad of Stormtroopers, bumping into a Jedi that didn't want to be seen

And Duke Togo: You and I aren't going to back down from our positions so I guess we should leave it at that. It's your thread you initiated so I don't want to start a flame war here, so back to news and whatever details this new SW MMO will bring

[Duke Togo]

From TheForce.net:

...

KotOR III Artwork Uncovered?

Posted By Mike on March 1, 2008

See the related links below for our ongoing coverage and hopes for a new KOTOR game. On that note, N4G.com is reporting that they have stumbled across a hidden folder at JZConcepts.com, website of LucasArts artist James Zhang that contains concept art for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III. The source article mentions that this could be from an old canceled project or a new one. Naturally our hopes are for a new game, which would certianly fall in line with the rumors swirling around the good old interweb. Though nothing has been officially announced, this seems to comfirm that the game was at least in the works at some point.

Click here for a look at some of the artwork.

UPDATE: Our friends at EUCantina.Net did some following up with artist James Zhang and here is what he had to say about the KOTOR 3 artwork:

“I’ve never used photobucket — those images were swiped off a private folder on my website, and certainly weren’t intended for public use.”

“I can’t really comment on anything regarding the images.”

Well, that's certainly not a denial about KOTOR 3. We still have hope until we hear something official one way or another.

...

[Warmaker]

Too bad I can't view the images from were I'm at. Curious to see what direction they're taking.

[Duke Togo]

Its looks like designs for a KotOR game (multiple outfits on several models, based on class), and it looks Sith influenced. Lightsaber and Sith eyes shown as well.

[Duke Togo]

"Star Wars The Old Republic" Trademark Application

"Entertainment services provided on-line by means of global and local area networks, namely, providing interactive computer game software, interactive video game software and interactive computer games and interactive video games, all on-line by means of global and local area networks”

[David Hingtgen]

Confirmed, EA/Bioware making KOTOR MMO: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3168871

[Duke Togo]

Bah, you beat me to it!

[Scream Man]

Could be cool, if done well.

[mikeszekely]

Confirmed, EA/Bioware making KOTOR MMO: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3168871

On the plus side, it's Bioware, and it's KOTOR.

On the minus side, it's an MMO.

Well, I guess it's up to Obsidian if we want a KOTOR III.

[lord_breetai]

Talking game engine, LB.

Yeah I know, but my point was that the idea of different types of Jedi with different training (hence different skill sets) for different tasks such as the Watchman and Guardian was established outside of games in the Tales of the Jedi comics... so it wasn't just include to drag-and-drop over different wizard classes.

[Duke Togo]

Well, I guess it's up to Obsidian if we want a KOTOR III.

Yeah, no, don't say that.

[mikeszekely]

Yeah, no, don't say that.

Hey, c'mon, Obsidian's not a bad company. They did just fine when they were at Black Isle, Neverwinter Nights 2 is good, and Alpha Protocol looks good so far. I'll grant you that they're no Bioware, but I think it's unfair to blame them for KOTOR II's problems. Lucasarts clearly wanted to rush KOTOR II out the door.

[Duke Togo]

Hey, c'mon, Obsidian's not a bad company. They did just fine when they were at Black Isle, Neverwinter Nights 2 is good, and Alpha Protocol looks good so far. I'll grant you that they're no Bioware, but I think it's unfair to blame them for KOTOR II's problems. Lucasarts clearly wanted to rush KOTOR II out the door.

Oh, that's very true. I'd just rather not go there again.

[mikeszekely]

Oh, that's very true. I'd just rather not go there again.

Well, I'm hoping that if Obsidian does get to do a KOTOR III, they'd actually be allowed to finish it this time.

[Duke Togo]

Well, I'm hoping that if Obsidian does get to do a KOTOR III, they'd actually be allowed to finish it this time.

Hell, TSLRP has only 5 bugs left to go!

[badboy00z]

I'm more excited about The Force Unleashed. Game looks awesome.

[Effect]

As long as Lucasarts doesn't rush them again KOTOR 3 should be okay if it's made by them. However while it's great that the Knights of the Old Republic era is being made into a MMO I have no interest at all in playing another Star Wars MMO. Not that it couldn't be fun but my interest in Star Wars is kinda a low point right now for any material outside of the movies and the upcoming animated film and series.

[Duke Togo]

I'm more excited about The Force Unleashed. Game looks awesome.

Indeed.

[David Hingtgen]

I've yet to play an MMORPG, this'll be my first. (Assuming it's good)

[Chewie]

This will hopefully give me a reason to quit playing WoW and go (back: poor SWG) to a Star Wars mmo.

Since they've been working in secret for 3 some odd years, maybe this'll work out nice.

[Duke Togo]

I spent the better part of 2 years of my life (that I'll never get back!) playing WoW in a progression raiding guild, with a healthy dose of PvP thrown in for several months. After that, I don't think I'll be picking up another MMO ever again, but I will atleast be paying attention to this game's development.

[mikeszekely]

(Assuming it's good)

It is Bioware you're talking about.

That said, like the Duke, after a brief stint with WOW I've sworn off MMOs.

[lord_breetai]

It is Bioware you're talking about.

Yeah! Edmonton Represent!

[Duke Togo]

It is Bioware you're talking about.

That said, like the Duke, after a brief stint with WOW I've sworn off MMOs.

Yeah, never again will I tell a friend I can't go out tonight because I have a raid. That happened too many times.