SW: The Old Republic MMO

[David Hingtgen]

If it's true, it'll be my first MMORPG. And I will spend every free minute playing.

[vermillion01]

KOTOR 1&2 are some of the best games i've ever played (IMHO), but i find it hard to be sold on an MMO even if it is KOTOR based. I'd like another offline version with a "jump in jump out" option similar to lego SW. No matter hope you try to sell it, i will not buy a game, and kepp buying it every couple of months! especailly with the extortionate rates for adsl these days. I think if you buy a game thats it! you've paid for it. Many, many games have online updates, free mods, extra missions content etc etc that we dont have to pay for, so why should i pay for a game over and over and over and over (you get the idea). Sorry WOW fans, i know its not the popular of ideas but its just one man's opinion. If this new Kotor (if it indeed exists) turns out to be an MMo, i will not be going for it and that saddens me more than i can express.

(please, no huge backlash against subsciption game haterss etc, its just my 2 cents)

More tradtional KOTOR please!

[Duke Togo]

I said the same thing before a friend talked me into playing WoW (after 6 months) back in Sept of '05. A year's worth of raiding 3 or 4 times a week wiped me out, and I don't really play much these days (my account is inactive right now), but at its best, its still worth every penny. MMO's have been steadily and strongly growing for the past decade, I imagine they'll only continue to get bigger. WoW has what, 9 million players now?

Star Wars Jedi/Sith based MMO? Oh man, totally there, even if just to try it for one month.

[eugimon]

I'd love to play a kotor based MMO... but with an 18 month running around, I just don't have the type of time and concentration needed to properly party up and raid. And if games like WoW and EQ are anything to judge by, the content for casual non raiders is sadly lacking. I personally don't find grinding and selling mats worth 15 bucks a month. But for the rest of you who'll get to play this game (if there is one) all I can say is I'm pretty jealous!

[Fit For Natalie]

This will probably not pan out given that Bioware has been purchased by EA. EA already said Mythic is its MMO division, so if KOTOR MMO were to continue, Lucasarts would be subject to EA's whims, and likely have to hand KOTOR over to Mythic, which they won't do. Politics, really.

[HoveringCheesecake]

I just don't have the time to devote to any MMO. Crap

Edited October 23, 2007 by meh_cd

[Duke Togo]

This will probably not pan out given that Bioware has been purchased by EA. EA already said Mythic is its MMO division, so if KOTOR MMO were to continue, Lucasarts would be subject to EA's whims, and likely have to hand KOTOR over to Mythic, which they won't do. Politics, really.

I find your lack of faith disturbing. That, and your reasoning is totally lacking...

[Duke Togo]

I just don't have the time to devote to any MMO. Crap

I look at it like this: Its a Jedi/Sith MMO... if I can put a month aside to play *insert random PC or console game* when it comes out, I can do the same with this. I mean, just to experience it.

[Prime]

I have never played a MMO, but the thing I am concerned about is the kind of overall story that this could deliver. I loved the stories of both games (despite problems with the latter), and the epic feel of the games. I liked the character interactions and the immersion that the games allowed me to have in that universe. After playing other MP games, fun as they can be I have found they they make it hard to be immersed in that universe, because ultimately other real people are going to be doing things that I feel, rightly or wrongly, don't fit the universe. That is usually why I tend to favor SP games...

[Fit For Natalie]

I find your lack of faith disturbing. That, and your reasoning is totally lacking...

Well, it was based upon conversation with somebody who works on another game. But granted, EA and LA are reasonable so they'd work something out.

Still prefer to see an offline single-player RPG, though, as KOTOR's strength isn't really it's setting, but its strong narrative, decent plotting and (in the case of KOTOR 2) very strong characterisation and development. Not sure how that would translate into a mmorpg.

[kalvasflam]

Bioware bought by EA... that alone was a disturbing thought. The real problem of course is EA's track record with MMORPG so far. Ultima online anyone? It was the first MMORPG that made money (I think), and instead of capitalizing on its dominance, EA went on to cede the title to Evercrack and Sony.

Bioware might make EA better, but based on what I hear, EA is definitely going to make Bioware worse as a company.

I think they might ruin KOTOR if they try to do an MMORPG out of it.

[the white drew carey]

This will probably not pan out given that Bioware has been purchased by EA. EA already said Mythic is its MMO division, so if KOTOR MMO were to continue, Lucasarts would be subject to EA's whims, and likely have to hand KOTOR over to Mythic, which they won't do. Politics, really.

Well, that's a very general statement. It wouldn't be surprising if there were many "particulars" in the purchase agreement. Also, I would think (although I could be wrong) that EA wouldn't want to shoot themselves in the foot if it looks like the KOTOR MMO will be a big asset.

[Warmaker]

I'm a bit neutral about EA doing this. I think Ultima Online is the only MMO they run, and they don't really promote it much anymore. AFAIK, it is still after all these years.

Just as long as Sony Online Entertainment doesn't run it, then this KotOR game is already going in the right direction

[Duke Togo]

As reported on TheForce.net:

LUCASARTS AND BIOWARE CORP. TO CREATE GROUND-BREAKING INTERACTIVE ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCT

SAN FRANCISCO, CA and EDMONTON, CANADA – October 30, 2007 – LucasArts and BioWare Corp. today announced that they have entered into an agreement to create an interactive entertainment product. The product, details of which will be unveiled at a later date, will be developed and published by BioWare and LucasArts, and will push the boundaries of the gaming market by utilizing the strengths of both companies to deliver an innovative, high-quality experience.

"LucasArts has a deep commitment to developing compelling stories and characters for the unique medium of interactive entertainment, and we have been searching for a developer that shares this value. We found this in BioWare,” said Jim Ward, president of LucasArts. "Through our previous collaborations, we know that BioWare has an impressive ability to blend gripping stories with technological advancements, and we believe that our upcoming product will deliver an experience that will span the traditional boundaries of video game entertainment.”

"BioWare's mission is to deliver the best story and character-driven games in the world, delivering powerful emotional experiences to our fans,” said Ray Muzyka, chief executive officer, BioWare Corp. Added Greg Zeschuk, president of BioWare Corp., "The collaboration with LucasArts allows us to combine our passion for creating high quality and innovative experiences with those of a company dedicated to bringing only the finest games to market.”

To sign up for future product updates, please visit www.LucasArtsBioWare.com.

[Warmaker]

No mention of EA or SOE in that last post there, DukeTogo. And that's a good thing.

LucasArts would have the money to put out and promote the game like it should.

BioWare I believe has a good enough track record to keep LA from climbing on their backs too much for changes the dev team feels aren't necessary for their own game design. LucasArts had a role with SOE in driving the original Star Wars MMO into the ground, Star Wars Galaxies. From 200k subscribers to maybe 20k. Great move guys! I just hope BioWare can do it their way and still bring a right Star Wars experience.

[Duke Togo]

TheForce.net is reporting unconfirmed rumors that the KotOR game Bioware is developing is NOT an MMO, and that a Star Wars MMO is being developed by another company.

I think its safe to say there is some sort of KotOR game being developed. I wish we could get something official on this stuff, one way or another. Even if it were just "We are working on a Star Wars title."

[HoveringCheesecake]

Thank god. KOTOR was about the story, not the gameplay. At least for me.

[Sumdumgai]

If it's KOTOR3, then I hope that they take their time this time around and don't rush the game out like the last two.

[kalvasflam]

The first KOTOR was great, the second was rushed.

If they do KOTOR 3, I hope they manage it with a continuation of the characters that were developed in the last two games.

I always like an RPG with a good story, the game play in KOTOR wasn't bad either.

[David Hingtgen]

Why does everyone lump KOTOR I and II together? BIOWARE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KOTOR II. Didn't write it, didn't program it, didn't publish or develop it. They just allowed Obsidian to use the name and basic engine. Blame Obsidian and Lucasarts for II's failures.

[Duke Togo]

KotOR had one planet removed from it during development, and its pretty seamless. TSL was a rushed, buggy mess, and was missing a ton of content that actually still exists in the game code (which is so close to being restored by TSLRP Gizka team). The two should not be lumped in together.

[Warmaker]

This news makes things interesting.

A different company doing a Star Wars MMO? Due to SOE and SWG's numerous failures, I really, really hope SOE does not run or publish this new SW MMO. Really, I can't stress that enough. I can type out a whole thread why not to!

I wonder who's developing the MMO and what the theme of gameplay will be. Personally, I hope that it's not the traditional single-class system that practically everyone uses, MMO or single player PC / Console RPGs. I'm a fan of the Sandbox style.

I also wonder what setting the MMO will be. I believe that it will be in 2 possible eras. Republic / Clone Wars era or the Imperial / Galactic Civil War era. All other eras are too "niche" if LucasArts intends this game to compete with some existing heavy hitter MMOs out there.

As to BioWare, well, KoTOR III it seems is on the way. They should be using a new engine since KoTOR's is showing its age today. But I hope BioWare doesn't dish out a buggy game. Even KoTOR was really buggy on release and it took several months worth of patching to make it right.

[CoryHolmes]

If anyone does KOTOR III, then I hope they use Mass Effect's conversation system. I've fallen in love with that so much that whenever I wach YouTube clips of Knights I shake my head at the text-based conversations. Yuck!

[Uxi]

It would be better if KOTOR3 is not the MMO... but I would hope the MMO is based in the KOTOR (if not TotJ-KOTOR) time frame. Good reason for lots of lightsabers from people not bound to strict Orders, etc.

ANYTHING but the time period anywhere in the original trilogy, especially the time between IV and V.

[mikeszekely]

Man, I hope it's a Bioware-developed KOTOR III. With the already announced Mass Effect 2 and Jade Empire 2, a KOTOR III would be a trifecta of Bioware goodness to look forward to (not counting the Sonic RPG they're supposedly doing for the DS).

About the only thing that could make me happier is if they got Neverwinter Nights back from Obsidian and did the third one themselves.

[Duke Togo]

A new Star Wars MMO stuck in the saga timeline would be a disaster. When you lock yourself into a period of time that already set in stone, you really lose alot of freedom with what you can do in the game. They paid the price with Galaxies and the Jedi mess, I don't see them trying for it again.

And speaking of Mass Effect, just announced that its coming to PC in May. Yet another reason why I can put off buying a new console system.

[HoveringCheesecake]

And speaking of Mass Effect, just announced that its coming to PC in May. Yet another reason why I can put off buying a new console system.

Don't get me started. *shakes fist*

[Duke Togo]

LucasArts says: "Yes, we are working with BioWare. We've announced that we're working with the developer on a project, but it has nothing to do with Knights of the Old Republic."

[Warmaker]

Well, I was off the mark on that. My obligated stab in the dark: It'll be a BioWare Star Wars game, set in the Clone Wars.

[CoryHolmes]

It'll be a BioWare Star Wars game

That's all I need to hear. The rest is mere details

[Warmaker]

A new Star Wars MMO stuck in the saga timeline would be a disaster. When you lock yourself into a period of time that already set in stone, you really lose alot of freedom with what you can do in the game. They paid the price with Galaxies and the Jedi mess, I don't see them trying for it again.

And speaking of Mass Effect, just announced that its coming to PC in May. Yet another reason why I can put off buying a new console system.

I think I got into this a while back with 'ya, but I'll retread a bit

A new Star Wars MMO in the Original Trilogy's timeframe wouldn't be a disaster as you say. IMO, it has by now contrast to other SW eras the most different setting, despite being the originally made era. As a former Star Wars: Galaxies player from Jan '04 until Dec 05 (with a see how it's doing trial in '06), I can tell you that the setting in between ANH and ESB is not a major cause for its failure. The Jedi situation is one, and I'll get into that later.

Anyhoo, I'll try to keep it brief, but here's the major causes for SWG's failure.

* Upon release, SWG is obviously incomplete and extremely buggy. Almost all MMOs have this negative aspect upon release, but SWG took it and ran with it. Practically every review, online or magazine that I read, properly panned the game, especially since it touted the powerful "Star Wars" name. Things like Speederbikes and mounts (sort of like those Taun Taun thingies from ESB and that animal Obi-Wan rode at the very end of RotS when dropping Luke off at Owen & Beru Lars' home) were not there at release, but added months later. Space flight and combat wasn't added until late 2004. SPACE! SWG was ripped really hard for reviews due to this. An MMO set in Star Wars that wouldn't let you fly X-Wings or TIE Fighters, or travel in space. Ha!

* Bugs... SOE, in regards to SWG, has historically been extremely slow in fixing bugs, even major ones. Many things we complained about in 2004, interestingly are still there in 2008. We've made our share of in-game Bug Reports and posting in the Official Forums of such problems. Yet they're still there in 2008.

* Slow in adding content. It took ages for SOE to add more content. We had a short lived story arc in the first half of 2004, right around when I joined. But other than this, there were no new quests or story arcs. There were no major patches to introduce more conent. The first expansion pack, which focused on space, wasn't until late 2004, with SWG having been released summer 2003. Almost a year and a half before major content was added.

That's the early, initial stuff that really put SWG in a big hole early in its history. Despite those issues, at its height, SWG did have anywhere from 250k-350k subscribers. Very good, respectable numbers before World of Warcraft took the MMO world by storm.

Then came a few more mid-development issues that effectively killed the playerbase and the game's reputation.

* There were 2 revamps that hit SWG. The "Combat Upgrade" (CU) in mid-2005 and the "New Game Enhancements" (NGE) of Nov 2005. The CU introduced some big gameplay changes that alot of people didn't like. Alot of players were against it and left. I personally liked some of the things it did but despised some others. Keep in mind, this change wasn't a balance tweak, "class" revamp. It was a big change to the core gameplay. Still, it had very close ties to the original game. We still had a good number of players. Then came the (NGE) a few months afterward. The players saw the previous CU coming. But the NGE was unannounced. Anyways, while the CU was a "revamp" of the original game system, the NGE completely changed the game. I'm talking about going from 34 or so "professions" to mix and match stats / skills from, to less than a dozen, heavily defined, limited scope "iconic" classes to Star Wars. Lots of things happened, among those making the game much simpler and stripping away features that SOE and LucasArts felt slowed the game down. They wanted a faster, simpler game, making it seem like a FPS wannabe. It was also obivous that there was WoW-envy going on by LA/SOE.

* In relation to the NGE, the "Trials of Obi-Wan" expansion pack debacle of Nov 2005. When that exp.pack was getting ready to come out, we were still in the "CU" era of the game. We were getting by just fine and figured that the CU was here to stay and would keep on getting polished, with more content to follow. With "Trials of Obi-Wan" coming out in the wake of Ep.III mania, we were expecting alot more. More items and additions to the current game and professions. You had people buying it, preordering it naturally. When the expansion pack came out, the NGE came out of the blue with no previous notification whatsoever to its existing playerbase. Like I said earlier, huge, sweeping core gameplay changes were made. Some of the rewards from the pack was supposed to enhance the older professions. With the NGE, those professions were GONE. There was a huge uproar in the playerbase about this. You can read a bit about it here in regards to that expansion pack and the circus that ensued

There were some issues between the playerbase and the developers, but that's for another thread in itself if you want. Regardless, the NGE was one of the larger factors that killed off the playerbase. SWG had anwhere from 250k-350k players to maybe 50k-60k.

Jedi - Like I said, I was going to come back to this issue. Until a certain patch mid-way through the game's history, Publish 9 if I recall it right, Jedi were extremely rare. Hard to attain, but if developed, were extremely powerful. A Knight / Master could wipe the floor with many players in combat if it came down to it. But to go with all that power, they were slow to develop and had Permadeath. 3 deaths, that Jedi was gone. Period. I was a hardcore fan of Star Wars canon, and initially wasn't keen on the idea of player Jedi in this timeframe. But the limited numbers of Jedi in game and the risks involved, perfectly captured the feel of what it meant to be a Jedi during the time of the Empire. You were HUNTED and the Jedi were practically extinct. If you showed off your power as a Jedi to the wrong crowd, i.e. a major hub in-game, you would be "visible" for Bounty Hunters to take contracts on. The Empire would be hostile and hunt for you (Darth Vader was supposed to, as the main Jedi killer if you became "too visible," but SOE never let this happen ).

Later on, with Publish 9, Jedi had the measure that limited their numbers disappear (Permadeath). Their numbers became rampant and you began to see them out in the open, in front of major points of travel and Imperial installations. There came a point where I could easily see more Jedi than Stormtroopers, and that was a big concern. The "NGE" then made them a starting profession, at the cost of alot of their power also. Still you saw more Jedi than Stormtroopers or "regular" professioned players.

Even early on, with the very limited numbers of Jedi and the vast majority of players having "normal professions," the players were content. We still had a healthy number of players even with "Permadeath" for Jedi involved. What was funny was that since Jedi were so rare and so powerful, the players in-game had great respect for seeing a bonafide, trained Jedi Knight or Master. It was great accomplishment to even becoming a trained Knight and stay alive, so Jedi characters were revered in-game... just like how the few Jedi were in the Original Trilogy. Jedi were rare, mystical, and revered (unlike the cannon fodder of the Prequels).

If Jedi were going to be used as a tool to increase subscriptions, it didn't work. More Jedi didn't equal more subscriptions.

Now, as far as the seemingly limited freedom of creativity if set in the Original Trilogy, there is no problem, IMO. You have the Galactic Civil War, the Empire vs Rebels. There was going to be no change as to what will eventually happen (Rebels win with RotJ regardless). But you know what? We didn't care. I always remained a loyal Imperial Stormtrooper. Many of us were loyal Imperials despite knowing the obvious end of the war. Granted, there was generally far more Rebel players than Imperials, but hey, most people like playing the good guys, right?

As far as story arcs, quests, content set in the struggle between the Empire and Rebellion, there is no issue provided there's enough creativity, especially with whoever writes the quests. There are certain things you can / can't do with a major character like Leia, Han Solo, etc. But who's to say that your quests needs to revolve around these characters all the time? The war reached far flung places of the galaxy. You can always make up new characters, new arcs to give the writers freedom and immerse the players in it. It's the same thing with the basic background and core characters of other established eras of Star Wars like the Clone Wars and the Sith-Mandalorian Wars of the KotOR era. Each of these conflicts had a rich backdrop to operate in. You had key characters and themes in each. There's certain things you can / can't do with Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, Bastila, Revan, etc. But the conflicts, the galaxy is wide enough where you can make your own story arcs that can still fit in the theme of the struggle.

Edit to add: Okay, I didn't keep it brief. So sue me!

Edited February 16, 2008 by Warmaker

[mikeszekely]

Star Wars isn't Lucasarts' only franchise. Just to be different, I'm going to say it's a sequel to Grim Fandango.

[Duke Togo]

I'm pretty sure somewhere there is a quote from Bioware saying that are indeed working on a Star Wars game, but no details were given beyond that.

As far as SWG goes, people want to play Jedi. That's a fact. This is a serious problem when based in the saga timeline. You aren't going to get millions of users and seriously compete if you are forcing players into playing storm troopers, rebels, and bounty hunters.

[Warmaker]

Yet there are Star Wars games that have extremely well without being so centered on Jedi?

The X-Wing series of games? TIE Fighter? X-Wing Alliance? The only times a Jedi is literally in-game are in 3 points during all these games.

- If Luke Skywalker is flying in his X-Wing (not common)

- Flying as Darth Vader's wingman (1 occurence in all the X-Wing games)

- Escorting a luxury yacht transporting the Emperor (1 occurence)

The series died with the advent of The Phantom Menace since LA was completely obsessed with Ep.I games.

You had Empire at War, a recent strategy game that's done well enough to merit an expansion pack. It's not my favorite game, but it's doing well enough if you look at the fan and mod community for it. Now, there ARE Jedi characters, but they take a backseat to all the military hardware that saturates the game. Star Destroyers, X-Wings, Stormies, AT-ATs, etc.

I'm not saying that having a game centered on Jedi is going to make it bad or lackluster. Games like Jedi Knight and KotOR are examples. Yet we have other non-Jedi centric games that have done well.

But saying having Jedi in an MMO would bring millions into the game is false. SWG tried that, making them easier and easier to attain, devoting tremendous development time into them (getting several passes before professions have even received a single one). They even made them a starting class. Yet the game is nowhere close to even being saved. What was funny was that during SWG's height, we had many "Imperial Trooper" guilds. All the members had to have one of the Imperial Armor sets and a uniform, some even going so far as to use only the weapons used by the Empire in the movies and EU.

I do know people would like to play Jedi. But believe it or not, there are many that prefer Stormies, Clonetroopers, the Fetts, etc. more than Jedi.

Jedi are great and are part of the flavor that make Star Wars, Star Wars. But there are just as many things in the franchise that make it up.

We had many people back in the day flying the X-Wing series of games, flying online with and against each other. I've later tried and liked the Freespace games (esp. 2)... yet, as good as Freespace was, there were a bunch of us that just missed that feeling of flying an X-Wing, B-Wing, or the TIE series.

Star Wars has many advantages to it than other franchises. Jedi are just one of those edges.

[eugimon]

I much prefered the SW universe before the sequels came out... where jedi/sith were rare and their arrival on the field of battle was a momentous thing... where a certain person through the force and through charisma could turn the tide of the battle or even the war. They were special and powerful and they meant something.

Now... they're just people with a blood infection who walk around in bath robes.