SW: The Old Republic MMO

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Oh man...I LOVED the Mandolorians after KOTOR, hopefully I can make my character into a renegade Mandolorian Sith.

[lord_breetai]

Would a good solution to the "there's too many Jedi" "but we wanna be JEDI!" camp to make the force user classes akin to City of Heroes Epic Archetypes? (ie characters you unlock by getting your first character to max level or too the endgame)

I don't advocate going this way, for Old Repbublic, Jedi are a must... but theoretically if they were gonna but some kinda contstraint on it, would that be a good one?

[Scream Man]

i probably wouldnt be a Jedi just to be different...

[Duke Togo]

Would a good solution to the "there's too many Jedi" "but we wanna be JEDI!" camp to make the force user classes akin to City of Heroes Epic Archetypes?

No. People play Jedi in large numbers because that is what they enjoy. Why punish the majority to appease the elitist minority? Plus, this is the Old Republic time period, there are alot of Force users running about, both good and bad. Just because some very vocal SWG crackpots want to enforce their Galaxies-centric view of TOR doesn't mean they should be listened to.

We have so little information right now on the game, I hate to say anything about what they should be doing when they very well may be doing it. Personally, I think its a mistake if they only have one Jedi and one Sith Force user class. Going by their own previous game design, they have melee Jedi, caster Jedi, and a hybrid of the two. This would certainly go a long way to balancing out class population issues.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Duke Togo

[Chewie]

The problem is now and will continue to be SWG and how people view it as the be-all, end-all of Star Wars MMOs or one of the worst failings in MMO history. Unfortunately for the rest of us most of the people who don't see the gray area of all of it and are only seeing the extreme black or extreme white are the most vocal about Jedi in ToR already.

No one has any problems with other Star Wars games and Jedi. Only in MMOs because of how SOE and LA handled it in SWG.

This game is based off KoToR. Knights of the Old Republic. They were games based mostly around Jedi and the political situations surrounding them but gave you the choice to go many different ways. I see ToR being no different.

People need to relax.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Chewie

[lord_breetai]

No. People play Jedi in large numbers because that is what they enjoy. Why punish the majority to appease the elitist minority? Plus, this is the Old Republic time period, there are alot of Force users running about, both good and bad. Just because some very vocal SWG crackpots want to enforce their Galaxies-centric view of TOR doesn't mean they should be listened to.

We have so little information right now on the game, I hate to say anything about what they should be doing when they very well may be doing it. Personally, I think its a mistake if they only have one Jedi and one Sith Force user class. Going by their own previous game design, they have melee Jedi, caster Jedi, and a hybrid of the two. This would certainly go a long way to balancing out class population issues.

Like I said, I want Jedi as a starting class... The Tales of the Jedi comics and Kotor games make up the coolest period of time in Star Wars I think. I wanna go around slashing at things with my light saber and doing crazy things with the force. And yes even if they went the Epic Archetype route different specializations would be good (if not different classes).

But while I'm sure most of the casual gamers, the ones who will get into this because OMG It's Star Wars! want Jedi, I'm not sure most of the hard core gamers want them to be so accesiable, and if there was any kind of limitation the epic class-system from CoH would be one I could see being used, because then it dosn't punish anyone rather it makes it a reward.

[Duke Togo]

I'm not sure most of the hard core gamers want them to be so accessible

If by "hard core gamers" you mean the whiny, very vocal SWG elitists, then yes, you would be correct.

[eugimon]

pandering to "hardcore" gamers is almost always a bad idea, imo.

I am concerned about end of game play though... one criticism I have of nearly every bioware game I've ever played is that by the end, the main character is so powerful that the end battles are just one sided slaughter fests. On the other hand, I don't want to see FF style boss battles that take hours and hours and hours and take hundreds of people working together to complete.

[Duke Togo]

pandering to "hardcore" gamers is almost always a bad idea, imo.

I am concerned about end of game play though... one criticism I have of nearly every bioware game I've ever played is that by the end, the main character is so powerful that the end battles are just one sided slaughter fests. On the other hand, I don't want to see FF style boss battles that take hours and hours and hours and take hundreds of people working together to complete.

Why would you assume TOR would be like KotOR, especially when the FF MMO (which you reference) is clearly nothing like the RPG? The same goes for Warcraft and Warhammer.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Duke Togo

[eugimon]

Why would you assume TOR would be like KotOR, especially when the FF MMO (which you reference) is clearly nothing like the RPG? The same goes for Warcraft and Warhammer.

Well, like I said, every bioware game I've played had ridiculously easy end games because of balance issues... and unlike FF and Warcraft and Warhammer, KOTOR IS an RPG, as is every game bioware has made and they all have the same issue... balance issues. so I don't think I'm out of line here being concerned about end of game play.

And while the FF MMO is not similar to the FF RPGs, ridiculously difficult and long boss battles are in both.

Edited October 28, 2008 by eugimon

[Duke Togo]

And while the FF MMO is not similar to the FF RPGs, ridiculously difficult and long boss battles are in both.

The only long boss battle I can recall is Yiazmat, and none of the FF bosses have been all that difficult.

[eugimon]

The only long boss battle I can recall is Yiazmat, and none of the FF bosses have been all that difficult.

remember the green monster from FF7? Not difficult, once you knew how to stack your little magic orbs, but it still took hours.

[David Hingtgen]

Anything that long is pointless/stupid. Once you "figure it out" there's no fun at all in running the same pattern of attack/heal 43 times in row until it's dead. I keep waiting for Square to do "Chaotic Omega Weapon XII, mk 2" with literally 40 million HP, with a 9999 cap, just to see how many people will do it and talk about it at Gamefaqs...

[Duke Togo]

remember the green monster from FF7? Not difficult, once you knew how to stack your little magic orbs, but it still took hours.

I don't recall it being that bad.

[Duke Togo]

just to see how many people will do it at level 1 and talk about it at Gamefaqs...

Fixed!

Edited October 29, 2008 by Duke Togo

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I am concerned about end of game play though... one criticism I have of nearly every bioware game I've ever played is that by the end, the main character is so powerful that the end battles are just one sided slaughter fests.

In KOTOR, Darth Malak was a PITGDA to beat for me.

[Duke Togo]

In KOTOR, Darth Malak was a PITGDA to beat for me.

Scoundrel/Guardian dual sabers crit machine FTW.

[lord_breetai]

In KOTOR, Darth Malak was a PITGDA to beat for me.

Did you destroy all the captured Jedi first? (either with destroy droid if you're light, or force lightning if your dark or a light who wants to spend the extra points?

Anyway balance issues can be dealt with by making spawns scale to the level of the party, that way you never outlevel a boss.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Did you destroy all the captured Jedi first? (either with destroy droid if you're light, or force lightning if your dark or a light who wants to spend the extra points?

It's been a while, but I don't think I did either of those two methods. The way I beat Malak as I recall, was to just about everything I could with melee combat and defense(might have used force too), and keep using the energy packets.

[Tinderfitles]

I remember having to go back to the beginning of the original one because i left mission in stealth, on the sith star destroyer.

[mikeszekely]

The Old Republic might be microtransaction-based.

Kinda good news for me, as I definitely want to play OR, but I've never shelled out for a subscription-based game, and I wasn't looking forward to doing it now.

[eugimon]

The Old Republic might be microtransaction-based.

Kinda good news for me, as I definitely want to play OR, but I've never shelled out for a subscription-based game, and I wasn't looking forward to doing it now.

oh that's cool, I wonder how it will work but if it means I get to play the game casually than I'm all for it.

[Warmaker]

The Old Republic might be microtransaction-based.

Kinda good news for me, as I definitely want to play OR, but I've never shelled out for a subscription-based game, and I wasn't looking forward to doing it now.

Microtransaction based? That is so god-d**n weak. I loved Bioware's past efforts, but this is BS. The MMO won't be based on what you've played / accomplished / accumulated with your character. Just buy great items / gear / etc. I've tried another MMO where this is the form of business they try, and I've come to despise it.

Let me clarify why I despise this model:

Point A: Want to go to a desirable area? Higher end regions? Pay a little money for it to just access it.

Point B: Want to accumulate some specific gear? Pay a little money for it, or go do Point A. Better yet, some of these desirable items will be "bound" to the player who looted it. So he can't give / trade / sell this "exclusive" item to someone who hasn't done Points A and / or B.

Point C: Unlock new skills or higher levels? Pay some $$$ for it. Maybe tied into Point A since free regions won't give you the experience you need to do it in this lifetime. Free regions will be "low level" stuff.

The game may be FREE to play, but I guarantee you, if you want anything decent or to go anywhere for great development, **you WILL pay alot in the end**. Mark my words on this. Bioware will hook alot of highly desirable things to a "Cash Shop" sort of deal. Again, mark my words.

I've been very loyal to Bioware's products in the past, but this bit of news, as well as some comments they made regarding gameplay in the recent PC Gamer article (rather big article too) has turned me away from this.

My high level of Star Wars nerdness / fandom won't be able to repel BS of this magnitude

Edit to add again: With a subscription model, EVERYONE is on a level playing field. Someone said it best in one of the comments posted in the link:

"Free to play, pay to win"

I'm figuring some of you would think I'm overreacting to this bit of news, but when this MMO goes live and utilizes this form of business, you WILL pay far, far, far more money per month than what you'd be doing with a subscription based model. GUARANTEED. The company will make it's money on you, despite you believing you're playing the game for free. The trick with Microtransactions is that the purchases are actually cheap. But you need them in quantity. They will hook you bit, by bit, by bit. Like leaving a trail of food for the mouse to take notice of and be lead away for some other purpose. If you think you're going in for a much more affordable MMO experience than regular subscription MMOs, you are sadly mistaken.

Or, you could play the Microtransaction MMO and not use any of the "Cash Shop" perks / purchases. You **can** do it, but you will be in an extremely weaker position than those that shell out alot of money. Your gear, stats, character, etc. will be inferior regardless of how much hard work, time put in, and good game savvy you have, compared to someone that shells out alot of extra money. Very, very big deal in Player vs Player situations.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Warmaker

[mikeszekely]

Or, you could play the Microtransaction MMO and not use any of the "Cash Shop" perks / purchases. You **can** do it, but you will be in an extremely weaker position than those that shell out alot of money. Your gear, stats, character, etc. will be inferior regardless of how much hard work, time put in, and good game savvy you have, compared to someone that shells out alot of extra money. Very, very big deal in Player vs Player situations.

I've read in other articles that The Old Republic is bucking a lot of MMO trends because the target audience is more Knights of the Old Republic than Galaxies. Or WoW, or that matter. And I've never played a bad Bioware game. I have faith that Bioware will keep the game balanced enough for people who intend to play the game entirely solo without shelling out a dime over the initial cost of purchasing the game.

I can't speak for anyone but myself on this one, but PvP is just another one of those typical MMO traits that I'm hoping that Old Republic avoids.

[David Hingtgen]

My fear is that SWtOR is the first "highly influenced by EA" game. Thus, micro-transactions.

[eugimon]

My guess is there will be "tariffs" for entry into certain worlds/areas... to be paid in real money and not so much buying the purple lightsaber crystal.

[David Hingtgen]

Sigh--went over to the SWtOR forums again. I think the majority of people there "still don't get it". Half the threads are dedicated to features that I suspect won't be in the game at all--but were there in Galaxies. (I never played Galaxies, but it's so talked about that I know the basics--kind of like Pokemon and Harry Potter)

[eugimon]

Sigh--went over to the SWtOR forums again. I think the majority of people there "still don't get it". Half the threads are dedicated to features that I suspect won't be in the game at all--but were there in Galaxies.

like waste forty hours of your life washing dishes only to be killed by the wandering butterfly?

I can't believe people want more galaxies. blegh.

[Warmaker]

I liked the old version of SWG myself, I preferred the deeper gameplay elements and not the gutted, oversimplified version that was the NGE version. Far more character customization in skillsets, stats, and combat. The economy was truly player run and not heavily influenced by loot equipment. Craftin was just as essential to the game and community as combat. I have yet to see a subsequent MMO (including the later version of SWG itself) where a player could be totally absorbed into non-combat aspects of a game and still find lots of things to do. 100% dedicated crafters / merchants. 100% dedicated Entertainers. Etc. And the community needed each other.

But that is another thread in itself with a long history.

As for SW:TOR, one of the Bioware guys posted over here regarding the Microtransactions thing.

Basically they're saying nothing "official" has been announced over the business model. But they are vague enough to neither confirm or deny any of the concerns and worries people have brought up.

My cynical take? : There will be MT. Bioware & EA were testing the waters to see what they could get away with. They didn't deny there will be MT's in the game. The backlash over the MT model has been immediate and furious. The original thread here went to 100 pages in a few hours. The thread was closed and a new one started due to the 100 page count. Despite the Bioware rep making the update, there is still fury about the prospect.

I'm watching this unfold at a distance now. It's going to be an amusing circus act to watch between EA, Bioware, and the fans of this game.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Warmaker

[Uxi]

I liked the old version of SWG myself, I preferred the deeper gameplay elements and not the gutted, oversimplified version that was the NGE version. Far more character customization in skillsets, stats, and combat. The economy was truly player run and not heavily influenced by loot equipment. Craftin was just as essential to the game and community as combat. I have yet to see a subsequent MMO (including the later version of SWG itself) where a player could be totally absorbed into non-combat aspects of a game and still find lots of things to do. 100% dedicated crafters / merchants. 100% dedicated Entertainers. Etc. And the community needed each other.

Agreed. Wish they would open source that or something. I could totally see running a homebrew persistent world or something like NWN1

[David Hingtgen]

Official video posted-- a bit of interviews, a decent amount of gameplay footage (almost entirely lightsaber duels though). Sure "looks like KOTOR". (I notice all the music is from KOTOR 2, none from KOTOR 1)

http://www.swtor.com/media/vidcasts/viddoc...sourceid=ea2829

[CoryHolmes]

(almost entirely lightsaber duels though).

And this surprises you...?

[Duke Togo]

E3 trailer: http://www.viddler.com/explore/Joystiq/videos/1119/

No gameplay footage, but oh my goodness that is effing sweet.

[eugimon]

man, let's hope the gameplay can live up to that level of awesome.

[Uxi]

That was a pretty bad ass scene.