Star Wars Order 66...

[Dax415]

just a little confused since i just bought the star wars commando video game for xbox. when i watched the movie, the clone troopers seemed to act like it was a program built into them,....yet in the video game they all seemed to know it was coming. despite the chaos and being among so many clone troopers, it doesn't make sense to me that all the jedi were unable to find out what was going on without it being a laden built in program. was just wondering if there was more information on this. thanks

[Veritas]

Good question. I'm sure if there is more information about it someone on the board could probably point you in the right direction. I've never had the chance to play republic commando, but didn't it almost seem like in the movie the execution of order 66 went a little too smoothly, like they knew it all along in there as well?

[Sumdumgai]

Was it Republic Commando? Since I don't remember it going past prepping for the invasion of Kashyyk.

Clonetroopers were trained for Order 66 with total loyalty to Chancellor Palpatine. Since it was just another order, done without hatred, anger, or any of those kinds of emotions to tip off the jedi, most jedi never realized anything was wrong until it was too late.

addition: Think of it kind of like Robocop's directive 4, the jedi didn't know it was there until it happened.

Oh yeah, and Shaak Ti probably survived Order 66, since it looks like she's going to be in the Force Unleashed videogame.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Sumdumgai

[Veritas]

This might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_66

[Warmaker]

/nerdendulgence_on

Ahh, Order 66, a good one for Star Wars. I loved it when the Jedi were getting mowed down.

Order 66 was clearly a premade, existing order. It had a premade name. The Chancellor did not have to give literal instructions to kill the Jedi. He said to "Execute Order 66" to the Clones, and the Clones carried it out to a T.

The Clonetroopers were drilled with loyalty and obedience to orders. Loyalty to the Republic and obedience to orders, like any military force, but carried further with the Clones. With that in mind...

The Jedi Order, despite it's long intertwined history with the Galactic Republic, was never part of the Republic Government. It had exerted great, practically autonomous authority in the Republic, but it was not an arm of the gov't. It "danced" with the Senate and Chancellor in various problems. But Jedi did not answer to the Republic for any wrongs they did. They answered to their own Council, not the Senate or Republic authorities.

So, when the elected head of the Republic government, the Chancellor, has declared the Jedi to be enemies of the Republic to the Clones who are loyal to the Republic and the Chancellor, not the Jedi...

As for the Jedi not detecting or picking up on the underlying secret and order within ALL Clonetroopers, the Jedi are overrated. From the highest ranking Clonetroopers, the lowest ranking trooper, to the Clone Commanders the Jedi Generals frequently were accompanied with, they didn't feel anything. The Jedi were powerful, but not omniscient and omnipotent as some make them to be. They actually kind of rely on that reputation. After all, they couldn't even detect for many YEARS that the very evil they were looking for was smiling at them behind his desk / podium, Chancellor Palpatine!

"If something were to happen to you... I wouldn't be able to bear it!"...

The ONLY good thing about the game SW Battlefront 2 was the single player campaign's storyline and narration.

"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."

When the Clones were still loyal to the emergent Empire and Emperor Palpatine, it was no problem that their loyalty was retained. The Republic changed itself to the Empire legally from within (Palpatine was the legal head of the Republic and had support from the Senate), the Chancellor became Emperor. The rules didn't change for the Clones.

[Lynx7725]

Actually, I'm more interested to know.. what are Orders 1 through 65 (and 67 onwards, if any?)

Order 1 "Whack off the current Chancellor."

Order 4 "Kill Jar-Jar with Extreme Prejudice."

Order 69 "Take Padme to my chambers.."

[JB0]

Actually, I'm more interested to know.. what are Orders 1 through 65 (and 67 onwards, if any?)

Order 1 "Whack off the current Chancellor."

Order 4 "Kill Jar-Jar with Extreme Prejudice."

Order 69 "Take Padme to my chambers.."

I'd like to imagine that 1-65 were all different ways to execute JarJar. Most of them slow and painful.

[Sumdumgai]

Papercuts and lemon juice to death.

And 67-100 are more ways to execute Jarjar. Besides he screwed everyone by initiating the vote to give Palpatine emergency powers. Everything is his fault.

[Dante74]

Papercuts and lemon juice to death.

And 67-100 are more ways to execute Jarjar. Besides he screwed everyone by initiating the vote to give Palpatine emergency powers. Everything is his fault.

Jarjar is EXO?

[wolfx]

The Republic Commandos were different from the conventional clones anyway, apparently leaving their brains unprogrammed so they developed their own personalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Recon_Commando

[lord_breetai]

When the Clones were still loyal to the emergent Empire and Emperor Palpatine, it was no problem that their loyalty was retained. The Republic changed itself to the Empire legally from within (Palpatine was the legal head of the Republic and had support from the Senate), the Chancellor became Emperor. The rules didn't change for the Clones.

Which is you know like saying that Hitler achieved power legally... he won the vote, and then got rid of voting but hey.

I remember in the comics that Luke finds a clone trooper who was lost on some world, they explain the situation to the clone and he joins the rebellion. So it would be weird if some imperial could just walk up to the clone and say "Order 66" and he'd switch sides again.

But then the comics don't matter for much...

[Warmaker]

Which is you know like saying that Hitler achieved power legally... he won the vote, and then got rid of voting but hey.

I remember in the comics that Luke finds a clone trooper who was lost on some world, they explain the situation to the clone and he joins the rebellion. So it would be weird if some imperial could just walk up to the clone and say "Order 66" and he'd switch sides again.

But then the comics don't matter for much...

Some of the Star Wars EU is cool, but the EU also likes to contradict itself and especially the movies. Which is why I ignore the EU completely if we're talking Star Wars story and theme. If we believe what the EU says, especially the games, that means the Jedi are alive and well in the age of Palpatine's Empire. They're just taking a vacation. It means that Luke was never the "Last of the Jedi, you will be" as Yoda said and was really insignificant compared to the powerful Jedi that still remain as the EU says

As for the Hitler thingie... I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but he and Star Wars' Palpatine did it "legally" within their own scopes. Both were Chancellors and heads of their respective governments.

** For Hitler assuming power in the first place, he was really at the right place at the right time in history to do it, in the miserable years after WWI for Germany. He knew where an when to "push the buttons" with the opportunity he had. Love him or hate him, the man had alot of charisma, and had a terrifying ability to sway people. If you ever get a chance to watch reels of his speeches before late WWII, it's eerie how he can easily do it. But this discussion could be another thread in itself. **

Edited April 17, 2007 by Warmaker

[Duke Togo]

Battlefront II (EU, of course) talks about the Troopers knowing well ahead of time what was coming, talks about the affection some of them felt for their Jedi commanders, and I think it even states that some troopers rebelled against the order.

[Sumdumgai]

The troops that did let Jedi escape (specifically some squads of Republic Commandos) had to answer to the Empire. And from what I remember reading in an article about it, some of them wound up answering to Vader...

[lord_breetai]

Some of the Star Wars EU is cool, but the EU also likes to contradict itself and especially the movies. Which is why I ignore the EU completely if we're talking Star Wars story and theme. If we believe what the EU says, especially the games, that means the Jedi are alive and well in the age of Palpatine's Empire. They're just taking a vacation. It means that Luke was never the "Last of the Jedi, you will be" as Yoda said and was really insignificant compared to the powerful Jedi that still remain as the EU says

As for the Hitler thingie... I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but he and Star Wars' Palpatine did it "legally" within their own scopes. Both were Chancellors and heads of their respective governments.

My point is that Hitler really abused and manipulated the system and so did Palpatine wether it was "technically" legal or not.

But as for their being Jedi to survive, I prefer that there are still a few Jedi out there... It seams really rediculous to think that the Empire could succed in wiping all of them out except for two. Especially when Obi-wan set up that warning beacon to tell the other Jedi to go into hiding. Of course Vader, and the other Dark Jedi employed by the empire hunted down lots of the survivors but if they missed Obi-wan and Yoda then they might have missed others...

And even Yoda would not have known about them for sure or not.

Luke wasn't insignificant because he was the one who helped his father finally achieve the prophecy and destroy the sith.

But again I don't think ALL of them could have been wiped out.

[Duke Togo]

This is where the EU loses me. Dark Jedi? What is that, Sith Light? They are all over the Saga period EU, even though it totally goes again Saga continuity.

[j_wong00]

This is where the EU loses me. Dark Jedi? What is that, Sith Light? They are all over the Saga period EU, even though it totally goes again Saga continuity.

I think that definition is a Jedi fallen to the dark side, but does not follow the teachings of the Sith.

Also, in many books (again, all EU), a Sith need not start out as a Jedi.

[Duke Togo]

Well, its the "Dark Jedi" working with the Sith that confuses me. They are clearly unstable force users, I can't imagine the Sith working with them, let alone letting them live.

[Godzilla]

Jarjar is EXO?

I was thinking the same exact thing. Back to topic: If they hide the emotions well, how in the hell did Yoda know this? We saw him cut the Clone Commander and Chewie and the other wookie kill the other clones. If the theory holds true, Yoda would be on the Emperor's dinner table. You saw how surprised Obiwan was getting shot at. As for effiiency at killing, they did a hellva poor job on Obiwan.

[lord_breetai]

You saw how surprised Obiwan was getting shot at. As for effiiency at killing, they did a hellva poor job on Obiwan.

"No one could have survived that fall!"

"Unless maybe, he was a Jedi"

"I said, no one could survive that fall soldier"

This is where the EU loses me. Dark Jedi? What is that, Sith Light? They are all over the Saga period EU, even though it totally goes again Saga continuity

Heck I'd say even the sith witch counts... as Dooku said when she introduced herself as Sith, he laughed and then said coldy, "you are not sith." But they still made use of her services.

And as far as I'm aware the Clone Wars is not quite EU.

I think Dark Jedi was originally a gaming term, used in the CCG and stuff that got incorporated into later comics and novels.

Certainly KOTOR uses it, and in connection with members of the KOTOR-era sith empire. And IIRC both Kotor and tales of the Jedi are considered cannon... they also happened 4,000 years ago.

[Duke Togo]

Old Republic doesn't have Dark Jedi. Its Sith vs Jedi. We're talking 4,000 years pre-ANH, and also long before the rule of two. One of the reasons why I prefer those games and the continuity they follow, because it lacks alot of the Force hocus-pocus you seem in much of the EU.

The period of the Saga follows the rule of two when it comes to the Sith. The "Dark Jedi" thing was always laughable to me.

[Sumdumgai]

Dark Jedi, from my understanding, are Jedi that have gone to the dark side, but don't necessarily follow the teachings of the Sith. None of the KOTOR teachings of domination, the force is your servant (as opposed to letting the force guide your actions or whatever), and all that fun stuff that seemed over the top to me.

As for the hiding emotions well, it seemed more like Yoda figured that poo was hitting the fan when he felt Mace Windu's back-up get owned, Anakin shishkebob-ing the younglings at the Jedi Temple, and jedi dying all over the galaxy. Since Palpatine was giving Order 66 one by one, he had time to feel all the death and put things together. The clones' emotions probably didn't factor into it that much.

[David Hingtgen]

It was always perfectly clear to me from Yoda staggering and clutching his heart that he felt "the distubance in the force" from all the Jedi dying and was thus ready for treachery from his troopers.

[lord_breetai]

Old Republic doesn't have Dark Jedi. Its Sith vs Jedi. We're talking 4,000 years pre-ANH, and also long before the rule of two. One of the reasons why I prefer those games and the continuity they follow, because it lacks alot of the Force hocus-pocus you seem in much of the EU.

The period of the Saga follows the rule of two when it comes to the Sith. The "Dark Jedi" thing was always laughable to me.

Didn't the rule of two come to be in the Tales of Jedi comics? Which are in the same time frame as KOTOR... but also stretched over a long period of time. I could be wrong but I thought it was there. BTW Tales of the Jedi is referenced in KOTOR many times you kind of have to take it, if you take KOTOR. Actually since Lucas helped write the history for Tales... you kind of have to take it period. (yes there was a time when Jedi could be trained at any age, and could marry damn it!)

And YES Kotor has dark jedi... or did you miss all the enemies that when you target them "Dark Jedi" appears in the target information?

http://www.uwcsa.com/uwcsa/channels/video_...or/kotor_03.jpg <--- these guys?

Did you miss items that have names like "dark jedi robes"?

And it lacked Force Hocus-Pocus? Freya's trying to "kill the force" sounds like the plot to a Square RPG. I loved KOTOR but KOTOR II was a little off the wall with the force stuff.

Edited April 17, 2007 by lord_breetai

[Duke Togo]

Rule of two comes up with Darth Bane, which is around 1,000 years pre-ANH. And yes, you got me on the Dark Jedi thing... been a good while since I had played it. And I totally agree with you on KotORII. I'm not much of a fan of II, though I am eagerly awaiting the release of the Restoration Project, which is rapidly approaching its completion.

Thinking about it now, you actually fight Dark Jedi at more than one point in KotOR, LOL.

Well, anywho, back to what I was saying about the Saga. It just doesn't seem to fit in with what was going on. Vadar wanted Luke to kill the Emperor ("he has foreseen this") to become his apprentice, and the Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vadar and well, become his apprentice. I don't see these kind of folks just saying to these other guys, oh yeah, you're a Dark Jedi, come hang with us.

I heard someone joke before there were more Jedi after that purge in the EU than there were before it. When you get right down to it, Star Wars is a genre, and it has many interpretations.

[lord_breetai]

Rule of two comes up with Darth Bane, which is around 1,000 years pre-ANH.

Yeah but I thought the Tales of the Jedi comic covered that. I thought it ranged from about 40 years prior to Kotor all throughout the history of the sith and Jedi... but I never read that far so I'm not sure.

[CoryHolmes]

It's not exactly clear when the Rule of Two was first established. We know that Darth Bane popularized it 1,000 years BBY, but we also know that Darth Revan and Darth Malak practiced it as well at 4,000 years BBY. Exar Kun didn't during his rampage through the galaxy, nor did any of the Sith before them.

The obvious conclusion is that the KOTOR makers didn't know about Darth Bane at the time they made the game But so far we're still lacking an in-EU explanation as to why Revan and Malak were first people pre-Bane to use the name of Darth.

Dark Jedi have existed for long before the advent of the Sith in any form. The Sith are an entierly different branch of Force Users, with their traditions and rituals and systems of advancement. Just because a Jedi turns away from the Light Side doesn't automatically make him a Sith. An example I like to use is to liken the Jedi/Sith split as the East and West in the cold war.

The East and the West had the largest, most powerful, and most well-organized militaries of the time, but they were hardly the ONLY militaries in the world. If a soldier on the side of the West (a Jedi) becomes disenchanted with his lot and decides to strike out on his own, does that automatically make him a soldier of the East? No. He could become a mercenary, or join any of the other groups around the world.

Same analogy for the Jedi. Just because you use the Dark Side doesn't immediatly make you a Sith. You'd have to contact one, get recruited, and train in their rituals.

[Duke Togo]

It's not exactly clear when the Rule of Two was first established. We know that Darth Bane popularized it 1,000 years BBY, but we also know that Darth Revan and Darth Malak practiced it as well at 4,000 years BBY.

Except there was a Sith Academy. And Darth Traya, and considering the time line, Sion and Nihilus too. EU cannon, as it is, establishes Bane as the one who set down the rule of two. Otherwise, we end up with what we saw in the Old Republic period, with Sith spending more time fighting with eachother than against the Jedi.

[CoryHolmes]

Except there was a Sith Academy. And Darth Traya, and considering the time line, Sion and Nihilus too. EU cannon, as it is, establishes Bane as the one who set down the rule of two. Otherwise, we end up with what we saw in the Old Republic period, with Sith spending more time fighting with eachother than against the Jedi.

True, but Revan and Malak always made reference to the student challenging the master and saying that that was the only time they could take on their own students. Like I said, really convoluted and unclear.

[Warmaker]

Battlefront II (EU, of course) talks about the Troopers knowing well ahead of time what was coming, talks about the affection some of them felt for their Jedi commanders, and I think it even states that some troopers rebelled against the order.

Nope, I had SWBF2 and it does imply the Clones knew full well what was to come. Some did feel sorry for the Jedi Generals that they did have affection for, i.e. Aayla Secura. However... none rebelled against Order 66, and the movies pretty much shows Jedi getting slaughtered by their own troops (Felucia, Mygeeto, Selaucami, and they tried at Kashyyyk against Yoda). Anakin Skywalker leads the 501st Legion into the Jedi Temple to kill everyone inside, and the troops complied without hesitation. Aayla Secura was shot repeatedly from behind by Cmdr.Bly and his troopers. Ki Adi Mundi was shot by his troopers as he led an assault against the Seperatists (between now hostile Clones AND the Seperatists... he was F***ed). Cmdr.Cody, who had a great relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi, did not hesitate in ordering the attack on his General. Etc., etc., etc. The Jedi shown getting killed onscreen were the among the cream of the crop of the Order, several being Council members. Aayla Secura did garner support from her Clones during the war, but Order 66 was still carried out without hesitation and without question.

Of course, the way the EU is going these days, I'm sure they'll make a story where Troopers will rebel against the order, save Jedi, and join the Rebellion. Typical BS the way the EU sometimes likes getting into.

------------------

As for Yoda surviving the attack against him at Kashyyyk, he's the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, an 800+ year old Jedi Master. The best living Jedi the Order had. Mace Windu stated that he himself was "but a mere Padawan compared to Master Yoda." Plus, he makes it for the Original Trilogy

A good read into the Clones' mindset, tradition, etc. is in the Republic Commando books, especially Triple Zero.

------------------

Like I said before, some of the EU is great (Heir to the Empire Trilogy, KoTOR I), some of it absolute trash (SWG, Dark Empire). To me, the trash is what tries to negate or go against the basic theme and background of the movies.

As for the EU showing more Jedi Post-Order 66, it's already there. There's a current run of comic books right now that shows surviving Jedi leading Seperatist remants against the brand new Galactic Empire. The MMORPG, Star Wars Galaxies, is set after ANH and before ESB. Yet you see more Jedi than Stormtroopers in that game. There's also books (maybe 1 year old by now) that talks about the "adventures" of Jedi that survived the Purge.

This is why I consider much of the Star Wars EU to be utter trash since it goes against the theme of the movies. Luke Skywalker was "the last of the Jedi, you will be." He wasn't # 1,010,005 of the surviving Jedi. Obi-Wan was long dead in ANH. Yoda was in his last days and died at the beginning of RotJ. With Yoda gone, Luke was it, and had to face Darth Vader and the Emperor himself. He didn't have the aid of thousands upon thousands of surviving Jedi and Jedi Masters. He didn't have the benefit of veteran batallions of surviving Jedi lending advice or assistance. Luke had to make do with little and still succeed.

Call me old fashioned, but I preferred the Galactic Civil War the way it originally was.

Rebels vs Imperials

X-Wings vs TIEs

Rebel infantry vs Stormtroopers

Emperor Palpatine & Darth Vader, no "extra fat"

Luke Skywalker, last of the Jedi, since Yoda was in his last years of his life and will die.

After all, Episode VI was titled "Return of the Jedi," not "Jedi Returning From Vacation."

[CoryHolmes]

A good read into the Clones' mindset, tradition, etc. is in the Republic Commando books, especially Triple Zero.

The first RC book, yes. I hate Triple Zero with a passion.

The MMORPG, Star Wars Galaxies, is set after ANH and before ESB. Yet you see more Jedi than Stormtroopers in that game.

That's only because stupid fanchildren raised holy hell when they found out they couldn't play as Jedi. It was said right from the start that the path to the Jedi was long and hard and very few people would actually get the chance to try. Then whiners started whining, "OMG a star wars game. I wanna be jedi!!!111oneoneone".

I was looking forward to playing as a regular Joe in a SW computer game, but that's not likely now.

[lord_breetai]

It seems to me the way Revan and Malak operated there was One Sith Lord then the apprentice, but there was room for as many force adepts and fallen jedi as they could get their hands on.

There was also sith and then there were sith lords... But Revan lead a lot of the Jedi away from the council (as we see in force visions in KOTOR II)... and not all of them became sith.

BTW what is with the "True Sith" that live outside the galaxy BS from Kotor... I wonder if we will ever find out about that.

[Graham]

Isn't a Dark Jedi just a Sith on a waiting list?

Graham

[Warmaker]

Kind of.

A Dark Jedi is really a Sith Wannabe

[CoryHolmes]

Isn't a Dark Jedi just a Sith on a waiting list?

Graham

That's like saying a Macross fan is just a Robotech fan on the waiting list

This problem arose from the fact that "Sith" was never seen in any script of the first three films. In any publication material, it was "Dark Jedi". Only later was the Sith added as a seperate, distinctive off-shoot of the Jedi Order.

Like I said before, just because you use the Dark Side doesn't automatically make you a Sith. It's the prime requirement, but until you actually join them and follow their rites and rituals, you're just a dark-side wielding bad guy.