Aoshima Variable 1/48 Legioss for 2007

[eyesonme78]

well seems the same to me.

i would strongly think wait for CM corp's production.. better i think.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

It's a shame for the people that like the Toynami sculpt

I like my Gakkens better and I'm anxiously waiting the CM set.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Ignacio Ocamica

[promethuem5]

I'm just waiting for CMs product at this point as well, and I'll pay whatever they charge to have a quality Legioss and Tread combo all in the same box.

[eriku]

I'm still hoping for a bandai-style reissue/remake of the Gakken. If they spruced it up a little with tampo painting it would be gorgeous.

Until then, CMs seems to be the last hope at a good Legioss toy.

[promethuem5]

That could be real neat too... I don't actually own one of the 1/35 Gakken Legioss, but I'm always tempted to pick one up.

[eriku]

That could be real neat too... I don't actually own one of the 1/35 Gakken Legioss, but I'm always tempted to pick one up.

I've been *this* close to buying one for years, but there's always a little voice that tells me a reissue might come along so I still haven't bought one.

[EXO]

reissue of a Gakken? If they coulda done one they would have already. Hell they never even bootlegged it Joons style. What we need is a new 1/32 scale legioss, tlead or no tlead. They need to stop messing around with these tiny low quality types. The success of the 1/48s and the newer 1/60 valkyries and also the transformers masterpiece series should be an example on how to make a trasforming toy.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Ah, but those are expensive toys! Expensive to make that is... few companies are willing to take a gamble manufacturing such a costly toy for such a niche license. The Valkyries and transformers were kind of special because they are so universal and at the time pretty much had a guaranteed purchasing base. Mospeada is still fringe. For a company to invest a lot of money in a large scale design at this point would be like someone making a 1/6 full featured action figure of Tommy Boy. Sure it's "popular" but it's very niche and will only sell a handful of product. Plus with petroleum skyrocketing as it is the price of plastics is probably going to get really darn expensive here in a year or so, if not sooner.

[konimon]

Aoshima rep. told Yaco to hold onto the Legioss' until they figure out what to do with them (exchange, replacement parts, or perhaps even refund).

I highly doubt doing exchange would fix the problems.

Imagine Aoshima had to do refunds. Gakken reissue might turn out be cost effective...

So who owns Gakken molds??

Edited November 6, 2007 by konimon

[Black Valkyrie]

Or at least they should make high grade kits like Bandai, that should safe them a lot.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Aoshima rep. told Yaco to hold onto the Legioss' until they figure out what to do with them (exchange, replacement parts, or perhaps even refund).

I highly doubt doing exchange would fix the problems.

Serves them well for messing up with Toynami. Or for trying to shove us consumers a bad toy twice.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[Golden Arms]

So what are the larger etailers like HLJ doing with their stock? Are they continually selling these toys, or are they holding onto their stock?

[drifand]

These have just arrived in Singapore. I think I'll pop by the stores just to see how high they can stack 'em.

[EXO]

I would have believed that train of thought a year ago and that's why I've accepted the reason there were no Ghost In the Shell, appleseed, Aliens, Robocop, and even bigger macross toys. But now all of that is here and in huge scales. Macross was supposedly a niche property too (according to people... a dead license) but now they are making and selling out of toys that are about $200. I suppose one can say the same about Mospeada... but now there Beagle and other companies coming out of the woodwork making good looking toys. So I'm pretty convinced there's a market for an Legioss in a bigger scale.

Hell I saw a 1/6 scopedog toy in a Hobby Japan... who wouldve thought that Votoms was a sellabe property 2 -3 years ago?

Ah, but those are expensive toys! Expensive to make that is... few companies are willing to take a gamble manufacturing such a costly toy for such a niche license. The Valkyries and transformers were kind of special because they are so universal and at the time pretty much had a guaranteed purchasing base. Mospeada is still fringe. For a company to invest a lot of money in a large scale design at this point would be like someone making a 1/6 full featured action figure of Tommy Boy. Sure it's "popular" but it's very niche and will only sell a handful of product. Plus with petroleum skyrocketing as it is the price of plastics is probably going to get really darn expensive here in a year or so, if not sooner.

[Roger]

Hell I saw a 1/6 scopedog toy in a Hobby Japan... who wouldve thought that Votoms was a sellabe property 2 -3 years ago?

Kaiyodo, who had been selling VOTOMS toys for a few years at that point, Takara, who was still reissuing their Dual Models, and Yamato, who released their Scopedog three years ago this month. And that's just what came out toy-wise. You had reissues of the manga, DVDs, the Playstation games, etc.

You really can't compare VOTOMS to MOSPEADA in terms of popularity. So far all we're getting for MOSPEADA is a handful of new toys and a reissue of the DVD sets. No new mecha designs, no new anime, and after 2008 is over the companies and the otaku will be moving onto the next nostalgic property.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well then it comes down to the obvious that no one likes to say... the license is held by crappy companies that simply don't wish to make the toys the collectors want, they only want to make the toys THEY want to make. After all, if it's not the collector demand or the commercial viability of the product then it has to boil down to simply the desire of the creators to make what they make in the scales and quality levels they do. Some guy in a suit says "this scale" and that is that.

Then again everything is progressive and it builds on the generation before it. The Yamato 1/48's were possible because of the good sales and positive reception of the 1/60s. The Appleseed toys are probably the same as the smaller, cheaper action figures came before these new big dolls. The same can be said for Robocop, Aliens and a lot of other properties. The wave has to start and it has to carry... and from what I have seen the initial wave of the Mospeada toy renaissance has floundered due to poorly made toys, fan complaints and the like. Everyone is waiting with baited breath on all the new toys. I would honestly believe that the hope of large scale Legioss toys lies in the hands of CMs now. If their toy sells well and is of high quality which meets with positive fan reception then by all accounts I'd expect someone to make them bigger... but as it stands now the current toys we have are pretty much crap, there are a lot of vocal unhappy fans and I'd bet no one wants to walk into that lion's den and risk more money on bigger toys until a "hit" toy surfaces and proves the commercial viability of the line.

[EXO]

Kaiyodo, who had been selling VOTOMS toys for a few years at that point, Takara, who was still reissuing their Dual Models, and Yamato, who released their Scopedog three years ago this month. And that's just what came out toy-wise. You had reissues of the manga, DVDs, the Playstation games, etc.

You really can't compare VOTOMS to MOSPEADA in terms of popularity. So far all we're getting for MOSPEADA is a handful of new toys and a reissue of the DVD sets. No new mecha designs, no new anime, and after 2008 is over the companies and the otaku will be moving onto the next nostalgic property.

Ummm they did a new cartoon full of Alphas didnt they? It's funny because everyone would have said we had no chance of new Mospeada toys at all a feww months ago, yet here they are. The fact is it's easier to play the expert and say it's impossible to make these toys until someone actually makes the toys and they fly off the shelves. What about ED-209? If I would have said I wanted a 1/6 scale ED-209 a couple of years ago I probably would have gotten the same response. Let me guess what the response would be now... "you can't compare Robocop to Mospeada... that's an American feature that was released worlwide compared to a small japanese market." Did everyone forget that Robotech was a syndicated show and was shown worldwide also? Don't tell me that the 1/48 is only puchased by "Macross fans" as opposed to Macross and Robotech fans. What about the constant reissues of Mazingers and Grendizers? You can keep saying it wont sell... until it does.

Well then it comes down to the obvious that no one likes to say... the license is held by crappy companies that simply don't wish to make the toys the collectors want, they only want to make the toys THEY want to make. After all, if it's not the collector demand or the commercial viability of the product then it has to boil down to simply the desire of the creators to make what they make in the scales and quality levels they do. Some guy in a suit says "this scale" and that is that.

Then again everything is progressive and it builds on the generation before it. The Yamato 1/48's were possible because of the good sales and positive reception of the 1/60s. The Appleseed toys are probably the same as the smaller, cheaper action figures came before these new big dolls. The same can be said for Robocop, Aliens and a lot of other properties. The wave has to start and it has to carry... and from what I have seen the initial wave of the Mospeada toy renaissance has floundered due to poorly made toys, fan complaints and the like. Everyone is waiting with baited breath on all the new toys. I would honestly believe that the hope of large scale Legioss toys lies in the hands of CMs now. If their toy sells well and is of high quality which meets with positive fan reception then by all accounts I'd expect someone to make them bigger... but as it stands now the current toys we have are pretty much crap, there are a lot of vocal unhappy fans and I'd bet no one wants to walk into that lion's den and risk more money on bigger toys until a "hit" toy surfaces and proves the commercial viability of the line.

I agree with the second paragraph here... I just hate the whole "it won't work" reply, because as we've seen in the toy market nothing is that impossible.

The small Appleseed toys were distributed by Yamato. I gotta say, I have a lot of respect for Hot Toys for taking advantage of "niche" markets and making toys that are highly detailed.

[Roger]

Well then it comes down to the obvious that no one likes to say... the license is held by crappy companies that simply don't wish to make the toys the collectors want, they only want to make the toys THEY want to make.

At Wonderfest I was talking with Yaco about the dearth of MOSPEADA merchandise and he said it was partially due to the fact that MOSPEADA is considered an obscure failed show over there, but also because (and you can file this information under "rumors") Tatsunoko has not been easy to deal with regarding the license. He mentioned that he knew other hobbyists and professionals who were trying to get their own MOSPEADA-related stuff off the ground and hadn't had much success working out the details with Tatsunoko.

Who knows what it means. Maybe they just don't want to deal with smaller operations, but this issue with Aoshima's Legioss toys isn't one of quantity, but quality. The responsibility for this rests entirely with them and it's very disappointing.

You can keep saying it wont sell... until it does.

No, YOU can keep saying that.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I agree with the second paragraph here... I just hate the whole "it won't work" reply, because as we've seen in the toy market nothing is that impossible.

Hence why I prefer to say "it is not economically viable". I'm sure it's possible for any company to take any property, no matter how "niche" or sub-pop it is, and turn it into a sellable commodity... the question is can they do so in a way that is profitable to them and that doesn't produce a total piece of crap. Then again you can never count out the dark horses... those hardcore toy fan companies making a toy just because they themselves want to make it, flying in the face of market studies and trends. In the end it's all about risk and the willingness to take those risks... and from my experience the Japanese are far more willing to risk than American toy makers.

[promethuem5]

Hell I saw a 1/6 scopedog toy in a Hobby Japan... who wouldve thought that Votoms was a sellabe property 2 -3 years ago?

I DEMAND PICS!!!!

VOTOMS aside, the reality IS that we've reached a new market where high-cost premium (and large) toys are aceptable. Look at the last five or six Soul of Chogokin designs... GunBuster, Ideon, IronGear, Bai-Kanfu... all fricken HUGE toys. I can't see that 35th Gakken Legioss being any more expensive than somewhat comparable armored 1/55 Super/Strike Valk reissues...

[Roger]

I DEMAND PICS!!!!

http://www.honkyproducts.jp/03as/index.html - no official images yet, but the last time I saw it they had the forearms, chest, and head done. It's going to be fiberglass.

VOTOMS aside, the reality IS that we've reached a new market where high-cost premium (and large) toys are aceptable. Look at the last five or six Soul of Chogokin designs... GunBuster, Ideon, IronGear, Bai-Kanfu... all fricken HUGE toys. I can't see that 35th Gakken Legioss being any more expensive than somewhat comparable armored 1/55 Super/Strike Valk reissues...

Economies of scale. Do you want to bet up to a hundred thousand dollars that you can sell as many Legioss reissues as Macross reissues, or Soul of Chogokins? If so, good luck. Edited November 8, 2007 by Roger

[promethuem5]

Roger... I think I just wet myself...

[Roger]

Roger... I think I just wet myself...

That's okay, because fiberglass is urine-resistant.

[EXO]

http://www.honkyproducts.jp/03as/index.html - no official images yet, but the last time I saw it they had the forearms, chest, and head done. It's going to be fiberglass.Economies of scale. Do you want to bet up to a hundred thousand dollars that you can sell as many Legioss reissues as Macross reissues, or Soul of Chogokins? If so, good luck.

No one said anything about selling "as many"... again... I'd like to point out the Hot Toys line. Appleseed (14" tallBriarieos) ED-209 and the Power Loader at 1/6 scale? Again... if I would have said I wanted such things a couple of years ago then I'd be getting the same economics lessons from all the toy market experts here.

Hell if you make the Legioss as part of a line of old transformable vehicles it'd be even more sellable, because some collectors buy crap just to complete their collection.

No, YOU can keep saying that.

Again... I have said that... and again... 1/6 scale ED-209... 1/6 scale power loader... 1/6 scale Appleseed figures...

oh... and another thing I mentioned they should make was an MP Megatron gun where the gun was larger than actual scale so that the robot mode would match MP prime and an MP3 soundwave... all before they made it... So as you can see... I have a small grasp on whats a possibilty. The fact that tatsanuko is hard to deal with is a whole other matter from the fact that there's a market out there for it.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Another factor to consider is who is releasing these huge toys. Every one that EXO mentions is being or was released by companies that produce hundreds of toys a year. A large scale output house like Hot Toys or the behemoth of Hasbro who have revenue coming in from several different varied lines of product have more "room" to take chances releasing huge money losing toys. Hot Toys can develop and roll out nearly any property they can get the rights to in a 1/6 action figure now that they are so large. And to use EXO's analogy I'd say that years ago before they grew to the size they are now the idea of taking on some of the rarefied licenses they are making now would probably have seemed ludicrous. They did take some chances early on but those lucky chances paid off and with time and rolling out more mainstream product to build up their product base they have arrived at a point where they can just churn out nearly anything. And if that 1/6 scale fully articulated and accessorized museum quality replica of Cherry 2000 completely tanks and they don't even sell one of them they still have umteen other revenue streams from all the other product lines they have cooking. In this sense if a big company like Bandai wanted to churn out a 1/12 scale Legioss they could, easily at that, and even if it never sold one unit the loss of making it would be absorbed into their bottom line beneath the eighty metric tons of cash all their Gundam licenses pull in.

To a good degree that goes the same for Aoshima. They are not exactly Beagle or Megahouse, they have a bit of money coming in from all the model kits they produce. If they really, really wanted to crank out a large scale Legioss they easily could and not lose their shirts if it tanked. Which brings us back to the notion that these companies just don't want to make the characters we want as big toys right now. Economics and feasibility vanish in the face of someone just saying "Nope... not going to make one right now".

More on subject I would really like to see Aoshima and Toynami's books on these Legioss toys. I'd like to know what sort of margins they have on these things. I mean, we all already know they (Toynami) sell these things for huge markups out of the gate so it makes me wonder what their true net is in all of this, post returns/replacements.

[jenius]

Wow, the Accountant in me would just love to do some demo number crunching right now... but there are just far too many variables. Honestly though, "Nope.... not going to make one right now" seldom boils down to less than an economic decision. The thing for a company like Aoshima would be opportunity cost. You have twelve different proposals each with some form of market research telling you the projected consumer base (and granted, that research is prone to error). Typically, you look at the twelve and pick your best choice for profitability as the next production model. In the case of the Legioss there's a lot going on. The Aoshima/Toynami relationship might go all the way back to Toynami's original purchase of the molds. Toynami purchased the molds... shortly thereafter Aoshima re-released the model kit. So, go back to that board room where you have 12 different viable projects and now you have a strategic partnership for item 5 on your list of profitability. Obviously, you elect to go with your top 3 for what your company will actually produce and you get project 5 as a bonus at very little involvement from yourself. Had the Legioss been #1 Aoshima might have done some big super cool toy, as it never made it that high it got the treatment it did.

Obviously there are plenty of exceptions. Some times a company wants to make an ultra high-end product more for reputation's sake than profitability. In that case it's probably all about the ease of licensing rights, the demand, and then ancillary factors like boosting the sales of existing products.

[eyesonme78]

[Black Valkyrie]

With CM`s delay and the bad QC from Aoshima, why nobody just reissue the Gakken Legioss

Why all this trouble ?

[Guest sh002]

they look nice. too bad i can't afford them.

[SuperHobo]

they look nice. too bad i can't afford them.

Indeed they "look" nice, but looks can be deceiving and Aoshima+ Toynami needs not any judgment as the final decision will always be thus; anything made or associated with toynami will be literally a mini atomic bomb just waiting to explode once the owner strikes thee packaging tape with a swift cut and a sign of dismay.

That Sup3rhobo's 2 cents of the day.

[jenius]

literally a mini atomic bomb just waiting to explode

You mean "figuratively" and not "literally." If that were literally true we'd have bigger problems than broken toys.

[Phyrox]

You mean "figuratively" and not "literally." If that were literally true we'd have bigger problems than broken toys.

I never respond just to post a "lol..." but I'm a vocab stickler, and this is too funny.

[SuperHobo]

You mean "figuratively" and not "literally." If that were literally true we'd have bigger problems than broken toys.

LOL indeed I was using it figuratively. However I was using hyperbole to make my exaggeration funny. XD Please do not bust an English teacher move on me.

[eriku]

I thought I'd dig this thread up and try to get a follow-up on the apparently horrible Aoshima release. Has anyone else gotten one of these since November? Are they as bad as what was originally reported? Worse than Toynami's or slightly better? I've read a lot of second or third-hand reports/reviews, but very few first-hand opinions of the toy.

I have the opportunity to get one for relatively cheap so I was considering taking my chances. If it's at least better than Toynami's, I may go for it.

Edited January 3, 2008 by eriku

[jenius]

I'm definitely planning on buying one but I was waiting until they got to MPC prices (like $55 shipped). Part of me refuses to believe they're actually WORSE than Toynami's offerings. There's also some strange backstory on who made them and how though as Toynami seems to be blaming Aoshima for the problems and Aoshima seems to be blaming Toynami (so says some mod at RT.com though... so take that for what it's worth).

Edited January 3, 2008 by jenius