Aoshima Variable 1/48 Legioss for 2007

[Lynx7725]

You've got it exactly right here. I don't know where the confusion is.

And anyone who bought an Alpha as a valuable "collectable" and not simply as a cool toy of a show they liked was being foolish anyway.

Well..

It's a matter of expectations, I suppose. One should expect companies you have to deal with to keep their promises, and this apparently is a cop-out from the "limited collection" promise Toynami made. It's an issue with the company's integrity, really.

Not that it bothers me. Just as the people who bought the toys at high prices (that are justified by the collectivity issue) has a right to complain about this apparent backtrack, I'm exercising my right not to be annoyed.

I've never really believed in the collectivity of the Alpha. After hearing Graham state that 15K is a normal production run amount, that makes collectivity a moot point. I got the Rook type because I like the 6J head sculpt (and was disappointed by Toynami's rendition, but that's another story). I never believed Toynami would be able to design and build a toy so well that it is worth collecting. The box, maybe, not the toy.

At any rate, Aoshima seems to be charging the same amount as the going rate for the Alphas (though less than from the online RT store). I wonder if they come with the same box? As I said earlier, I'm feeling particularly ashamed for Aoshima, but I suppose that's irrational.

[jenius]

One should expect companies you have to deal with to keep their promises, and this apparently is a cop-out from the "limited collection" promise Toynami made.

Precisely. As soon as you start saying "Well, I guess it's okay that companies I do business with don't honor their own promises" you find yourself on a terribly slippery slope. It's easy to dismiss here 'cause we're talking about a mediocre toy at a relatively small price and that's why I'm arguing for the principal. I don't own any Alphas as investments but I bought them under certain pretenses and those pretenses should be honored.

[Awacs]

Well..

It's a matter of expectations, I suppose. One should expect companies you have to deal with to keep their promises, and this apparently is a cop-out from the "limited collection" promise Toynami made. It's an issue with the company's integrity, really.

I understand where you are coming from with this one. Given everything else Toynami has managed to get wrong - and especially on the Alpha's they have got a lot wrong - you would think they would have managed to stick to the "to say a thing is to do the thing" principle. That said - they may not feel that they have broken their word. You could justify it from the point of view of "1)we said we would only make 15,000 Robotech Alpha Fighters of each design. 2)We have done that. 3)Another company is making Mospeada Legioss' from the same molds as we made our Alpha Fighters, these are not Robotech toys and not Alpha Fighters. Therefore we have not broken statement 1)." Personally I view this as a slightly weasley way of looking at it. But that is between Toynami and their conscience in the final analysis.

That being said, I don't understand how anyone can describe the Masterpiece Alpha Fighters as being true "limited editions", or as having much collectability. If there are 15,000 of each colour then that seems to me to be fairly abundant. Especially as there are still a number of them at full price in shops in my neck of the woods steadily accumulating a thin film of dust. Mind you - for those folk who did buy into the whole "rarity value" thing that Toynami were trying to convince people of, I can see why this would be annoying.

To think, I was thinking of picking up one of these when they were first announced. However, having been dissappointed by the green version I'm a lot less anxious now. Drat. I wanted a red version to supplement my old two-mode version (and the chances of me ever seeing, let alone owning the large Gakken version of Hoquet's Legioss is, in mathematical terms, approaching zero.

Ah well, there is always the CMS Corp version to look forward to.

Karl

(An irony has just struck me - I wonder how many Robotech fans even know about the Aoshima release? A lot of them don't seem to hang out on forums like this, and as discussion of them would be banned on Robotech.com...... An odd irony that might work in Toynami's favour in PR.)

[do not disturb]

looks like the MPC but i'll wait til theres more solid info.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

In the 90s, Renault made a special version of the Clio called the Clio Williams. Prices were astronomical for a performance hatch since Renault promised only a run of 400.

When the damn thing sold well, they got around the 'limit to 400' by calling the newer batch Clio Williams 2!

Then they ran another batch called the Clio Williams 3!

If Renault can get away with it, Toynami sure can.

In any case, my opinion of Aoshima has dropped about 35 levels.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Graham]

One should expect companies you have to deal with to keep their promises

Toynami..........cough....30% diecast content in VF-1 MPC....cough!

Keep promises, yeah right!

Graham

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Toynami..........cough....30% diecast content in VF-1 MPC....cough!

Keep promises, yeah right!

Graham

But its got AUTHENTIC RUBBER TYRES! I mean, how cool is that! And, and its the most accurate representation of a veritech ever and and.. and... its got RUBBER TYRES!!!

[Lynx7725]

Toynami..........cough....30% diecast content in VF-1 MPC....cough!

Keep promises, yeah right!

Graham

Yeah well, there's always the exception to the rule. I don't expect such companies to last very long though, but HG Toynami proves to be exceptionally cockroach-like in its ability to survive.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot I need to be more precise. Doesn't do well to mix the two.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Lynx7725

[jenius]

If I'm not mistaken the VF-1 MPC was also going to be 1/65 scale & 30% diecast (which sounds like a kinda cool toy to me). Then Toynami scratched the whole thing, redesigned it at the last moment, upped the production volume, and dumped the thing on the market. The VF-1 is a series of miserable mistakes which I optimistically excused in some degree as learning experiences. What's happening here with Aoshima seems a bit more slimey to me but hey, if everyone here is cool with that I'm definitely cool with being in the minority.

Edited April 16, 2007 by jenius

[drifand]

IF, (and that's a BIG 'if') Aoshima pulls off the unexpected – actually upping the QC and materials from the MPC Alpha to produce a really solid, well-fitting Legioss, would anyone still hold grudges?

I, for one, had really wanted to like the MPC Alphas but held off because the fit and finish simply did not justify the 80USD price tag. If the Aoshima edition is actually improved, I'd be more than willing to consider buying one instead of dismissing them out of hand as Toynami-derived POS. (I said 'consider' because my first bet is still on the CM's 2-pack).

[Ignacio Ocamica]

But its got AUTHENTIC RUBBER TYRES! I mean, how cool is that! And, and its the most accurate representation of a veritech ever and and.. and... its got RUBBER TYRES!!!

And it's got a ladder

Back on topic, I'll wait for the CM's Legioss Tread combo

[Lynx7725]

IF, (and that's a BIG 'if') Aoshima pulls off the unexpected – actually upping the QC and materials from the MPC Alpha to produce a really solid, well-fitting Legioss, would anyone still hold grudges?

If Aoshima did that, it would be nearly the same as creating a totally new model. Then they won't need to put those pics up...

The MPC Alpha is a hand-made toy. It's lovingly put together, tooled, and assembled.. but it seems to be the work of an apprentice, not a master. Aoshima would have to retool the majority of the mold to meet my standard (which, admittedly, might be a tad high).

Would I hold grudges? Probably not, but I would be extremely skeptical. It would take a lot to convince me to put down money for an Aoshima, especially since there's no guarantee of a Tread, whereas the CM, at this point, guarantees a Tread.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

IF, (and that's a BIG 'if') Aoshima pulls off the unexpected – actually upping the QC and materials from the MPC Alpha to produce a really solid, well-fitting Legioss, would anyone still hold grudges?

I, for one, had really wanted to like the MPC Alphas but held off because the fit and finish simply did not justify the 80USD price tag. If the Aoshima edition is actually improved, I'd be more than willing to consider buying one instead of dismissing them out of hand as Toynami-derived POS. (I said 'consider' because my first bet is still on the CM's 2-pack).

For the people that like the Toynami sculpt, I really wish Aoshima ups the QC and materials. I'm all for lineart accuracy and there's some places where I really dislike the Toynami sculpt.

So far I'm happy with my Gakkens and like the liberties taken by CM's.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

That about says it all. With the CM Legioss+Tread, it doesn't really matter how good Aoshima remakes the MPC.

Unless the CM stuff turns out to be craptastic in build quality...

[kensei]

For the people that like the Toynami sculpt, I really wish Aoshima ups the QC and materials. I'm all for lineart accuracy and there's some places where I really dislike the Toynami sculpt.

So far I'm happy with my Gakkens and like the liberties taken by CM's.

It'll be funny cause then the MPCs will be bootleg quality.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

It'll be funny cause then the MPCs will be bootleg quality.

In the best case scenario that is what will happen

[bigkid24]

Regarding the limited run of the MPCs, I believe that the MPC vol1, the Rick VF-1J was the ONLY MPC to sell out causing the increase in the run from 10,000 to 15,000 but that was all based on the hype and die cast content.

After everyone was severely disappointed, no other VF-1 veritech hit the limit for the production run. That's how the Roy VF-1S was "reissued" a while back when the prices hit about $200 on ebay for them. The production run was still below the 15,000 limit that was promised. So even though they say it's a limit of 15k or whatever I don't think there are actually that many in circulation.

I'm not sure about the alphas but since it seems like there was even less hype about them it could be possible that they are still under the promised production run.

[Lynx7725]

The question relevant to this thread would be whether Toynami farmed part of the production run to Aoshima to sell off the stock, or actually sold Aoshima the molds so that Aoshima can produce however much they want.

Of course, this is contingent on the Aoshima version being the MPC Alpha. To me, this is most likely based on the pics, but it might not be true.

[Save]

Well seems that Yacolog sent off an email to Aoshima and got a response.

Here it is web translated.

■ Detailed revelation of Aoshima "1/48 new century alloy レギオス"

A photograph of マスターピースレギオス made by Nami Toi was carried in an official site of Aoshima, and a developement became clear for the affair that became a topic among fans in the world.

（A photograph is the masterpiece series made by Nami Toi）

◠As for "レギオス" to release this time, it is misappropriated quality of the ROBOTECH masterpiece series of Nami Toi Corporation.

â— It is not for our company to do substitute sale of Nami Toi Corporation, but releases it as the version that I ask it for OEM production and added reinforcement and a weapon of a hip joint to.

　　　　　

â— Because there is not yet images for the remodeling that I can announce about a notice, I want to carry it with our company HP, our product guidance magazine as soon as I am completed.

Was an answer of the question email which the above took out to Aoshima; (part abbreviation).

Because information spreads in an alloy thread in a new century, I can put that one together, and look.

When I try to compile what I understand about present conditions レギオス and a trend of future Aoshima,

â— The new product that Aoshima added improvement to MP of Nami Toi.

â— It is added 3 missile to reinforcement of a hip joint, the left shoulder with addition of a missile pod, heart.

◠MP ride Armour is negotiating to be able to sell it as モスピーダ in Japan although there is the issue of copyright.

â— An MP tread has many points to examine such as structure or a price, and commodification is undecided.

I do not understand where quality of マスターピースレギオス improves by a hand of Aoshima to, but am glad of what Japanese, the article which was upgraded than a Nami Toi version gets possible to buy carelessly.

Alloy レギオス is exhibited at Shizuoka hobby show of next month in this new century, and all will become clear there.

An interesting fight of association of Nami Toi Aoshima vs CM's seems to be developed this year.

To a route more and more major in other makers seeming to have already given self-introduction of the characters on the stage of noh play as for モスピーダ?

The activation of モスピーダ was a benefit of ROBOTECH which a fan detested.

Do not you think that it is a very ironical story?

Edited April 17, 2007 by SaveRobotech

[Lynx7725]

Nami Toi??? BWAHAHAHA!

EDIT: So essentially, Aoshima got hold of Toynami's MPC and added touches here and there? I really can't tell because the translator mangled it badly.. wait, let me go read the original.

EDIT x2: Google has a better translator

Hmm, looks that way. Seems like Aoshima got some of the production run of Toynami MPC. It isn't selling on behalf of Toynami, so legal issues are likely (I think). Aoshima modified it to some degree, but it's still essentially an MPC. This should be shown at the Shizuoka show (next month), so we can expect to laugh our asses off again next month.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Lynx7725

[Shaggydog]

This is great news. With some fixes the Toynami Alpha could be a great toy. Of course, success isn't guaranteed, but I have some hope. I mainly hope they do the following:

1. improve the transformation to fighter mode by improving the fit of the parts

2. use better hands (please oh please)

3. fix the fighter mode's banana nose.

I personally didn't have a problem with the joints, but if they want to improve those too, more power to em.

Oh, and those anti-toynami fanatics who are already anticipating hating it next month: why don't you just bugger off now, and pay attention to the toys you might end up liking? Just a suggestion

[jenius]

Okay, so Toynami was having a problem moving MPC Alphas so they sold a bunch of them to Aoshima who then modified them? Interesting. The reference to the hips makes me think you'll be able to angle the legs outward. I wish they would have added a swivel at the knee and a ton of other improvements. It's wait and see time!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I hope they fix the arms, like making that one breakage prone part into diecast and smacking ratchets into the shoulders.

So.....is this thing reverse engineered from a sample they got, or was it officially given by toynami for aoshima to improve?

[Lynx7725]

Don't look like it's official; seems like it's OEM to Aoshima, and Aoshima's not really in cooperation with Nami Toi. Sorry, the translators are fairly garbled, and my Japanese's just not good enough to wring more out of it.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Lynx7725

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Whats OEM?

[drifand]

Trust Matt Alt of TBDX to provide some clarity! :-)

http://toyboxdx.com/brog/?p=233

[jenius]

Whats OEM?

Original Equipment Manufacturer generally. It's really common in car talk where a mechanic has three options, sell you a piece of crap no name part to get your car running, sell you the OEM part, or sell you an "enhanced" part (like an after-market mod piece).

EDIT - just read that Toybox DX article. I'm still really confused as to whether or not these are just part of the 15K run or not. The fact that there's going to be any change at all makes me feel better about the whole limited edition aspect anyway though. If Aoshima got, let's say 5K of each Alpha though, this might be a really cool way for Toynami's product to suddenly be more collectible (MPCs are now limited to 10K) and Aoshima's product to be more collectible (the 5K) and better (different weapons and strengthened joints). Makes you curious though, are they just taking MPCs, breaking them, and then repairing them with better parts??? That seems like more work than just building all new ones.

Edited April 17, 2007 by jenius

[drifand]

There's not enough info at the moment regarding the OEM process. But one way or another, I do trust Aoshima to NOT produce a POS. If anyone can turn out a more than decent Legioss from the ashes of a MPC Alpha, they can. I have simply yet to see a badly finished collectible produced or re-licensed by them.

These are interesting times.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Does anyone else see the potential for Toynami to get a real slap in the face on this whole deal? I mean, what I see is Aoshima saying "We really like your design and want to sell your toys... but your produced toy was terrible... we are going to make some changes and produce our own and show you how a REAL toy company makes this design." If this pans out the way I think it sounds then I feel stupid for buying the original Toynami version. I may just have to buy one of the Aoshima versions to see how this toy was actually supposed to be made.

[Lynx7725]

At this point, we got the official Aoshima pictures and one source (all quoted stuff points to the same source) that says a slightly blurred picture.

Baseline is that we're getting an Aoshima Legioss. It looks remarkably similar to Nami Toi's MPC Alpha, but aside from that there is no proof/ hard evidence it is based off the MPC.

The best thing to do is to wait for the Shizuoka show for more details. If the show provide more clarity, we can make purchasing decision then. There's no point rushing into a pre-order that might not be worth your money; of course, there is also the risk of not getting one due to the delay, but to be honest, I rather save than spend.

The other consideration, is as stated before, the Tread...

[Lynx7725]

I may just have to buy one of the Aoshima versions to see how this toy was actually supposed to be made.

Well, just remember to do a review.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Does anyone else see the potential for Toynami to get a real slap in the face on this whole deal? I mean, what I see is Aoshima saying "We really like your design and want to sell your toys... but your produced toy was terrible... we are going to make some changes and produce our own and show you how a REAL toy company makes this design." If this pans out the way I think it sounds then I feel stupid for buying the original Toynami version. I may just have to buy one of the Aoshima versions to see how this toy was actually supposed to be made.

I find it ironic in a way. People got on Toynami for copying japanese models and toys as a basis for their own MPC toys. Now a japanese company is taking a toy toynami made, and making it better than they did. Kind of like saying "now this is how its done".

Fix the durability and shoulder issues and Aoshima's got me! Unless CM trumps them with something better.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I find it ironic in a way. People got on Toynami for copying japanese models and toys as a basis for their own MPC toys. Now a japanese company is taking a toy toynami made, and making it better than they did. Kind of like saying "now this is how its done".

Nami Toi can copy all they want. If they present a _Good_ product in the end, It is all good. But they produce piles o' dung so we can batty!

In any case, since CM is going to come up with a Tread, it makes buying an Aoshima Legioss not that attractive an idea, no matter how good they fixed it.

[Lynx7725]

In any case, since CM is going to come up with a Tread, it makes buying an Aoshima Legioss not that attractive an idea, no matter how good they fixed it.

Shootin' the breeze here, but if the Aoshima Legioss is a near copy of the MPC, and if either Nami Toi or Aoshima comes out with a Tread, do you think the Tread would be cross-compatible (i.e., Aoshima Legioss with MPC Tread, MPC Alpha with Aoshima Tread)..?

Food for thought.

[Black Valkyrie]

Lets wait and see, I hope they mean it.