Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[pfunk]

ahhh, its probably going to be a completly different animal that wont even fire the correct round

[Graham]

I've read unconfirmed rumors (I forget where I read it) that even the non-AP 5.7mm ball ammo will penetrate soft body armor. Anybody know if this is true or not? I forget if the rumor was talking about NIJ level II or IIIA armor though.

Graham

[JsARCLIGHT]

I've read unconfirmed rumors (I forget where I read it) that even the non-AP 5.7mm ball ammo will penetrate soft body armor. Anybody know if this is true or not? I forget if the rumor was talking about NIJ level II or IIIA armor though.

Graham

Well this piece of info may somewhat put your mind at ease: The wounding capability in comparison of the SS192 when fired from the Five SeveN USG to the standard 124gr 9mm Speer jhp+p loading as issued to the NYPD and fired from the Glock G19 duty pistol is roughly 40% with a large reduction in overall wound size, depth, diameter, and soft tissue volume. The SS192 ammunition provides for much faster energy loss and provides a significantly lower risk of target over penetration and secondary target contact/over penetration while also providing for a significant reduction in risk of ricochet thus making it statistically a safer pistol in many aspects for the civilian end user. (info from ammolab.com's article on the 5.7 versus 9mm)

As for bullets penetrating NIJ level IIa vests I can say without a doubt that there tons of rounds that will blow clean through that grade of vest. Albeit most of them are larger caliber rifle rounds but in a sense the 5.7 is a cutdown 5.56 assault rifle round and possesses the same kinetic force penetration capabilities to a good degree. The non AP SS192 training ammo is basically the same thing as it's bigger brother just "detuned" with a different bullet in it. In all honesty it underperforms compared to 9 mil and .357 sig rounds and is more akin to a .22 magnum round. In the right conditions even a .22 mag can penetrate level IIa vests. Level III with a trauma plate is another story all together. The thing that modern society seems to forget about (or just plain ignore) these days is that ballistic vests are designed to give the wearer a "second chance" when being shot... they are not 100% effective in all cases and situations. I have seen time and again tests in person and in video of several grades of ballistic vest blown clean through by common ammo when the right set of variables come into play. As always, "body armor" should not be seen as the instant bullet stopping invulnerablity cloak that people make it out to be. (I know Graham knows all this I'm just soapboxing for those that don't).

[JsARCLIGHT]

Some more recent pics of the grey and green Civilian P90 and F2000 are floating around from another show. These are bigger and easier to see. Keep in mind these are the prototypes and are rumored to be mock-ups only.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Second of the P90

[JsARCLIGHT]

And one shot of the "civilian" F2000.

Edited April 24, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[JsARCLIGHT]

... and as promised my new toy, complete with Gemtech Moussad suppressor (which I have to give back to my friend as civilians are not allowed to legally own them in this state ).

[Zentrandude]

And one shot of the "civilian" F2000.

hmm I like the design of the stock on the civvie. wonder what guns I should sell off to get it when it comes out.

Edited April 24, 2005 by Zentrandude

[JsARCLIGHT]

Keep your AR mags as the civvie F2000 will run them they say.

[Zentrandude]

yah i heard that on other sites about those guns. not sure i would sell off my ar. I do like the pencil barrel it has on it.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Personally I'm still not sold on the civilian P90... I guess I just have a built-in prejudice against those weapons... but the F2000 looks boss so far and actually stands a better chance of getting made than the civvie P90. Plus if it does turn out to use AR mags like everyone is saying and take flat top picatinny sights then I'll be all set.

Compared to the clumsy and blockish Bushmaster M17 the civie F2000 is a work of art.

[Zentrandude]

agreed its a work of art. wonder if the civ version will keep the special way it ejects shells so it stays ambidextrous like its meaner mil version brother.

[Graham]

making it statistically a safer pistol in many aspects for the civilian end user.

Heh, not really safer if you happen to be using it for self defence. You'd probaby have to empty the whole mag into a determined aggressor to stop them.

No, siree, while any firearm is better than none in a pinch, you wouldn't catch me with what is effectively a .22 magnum pistol round to protect myself or others. I've been saying this for years to anybody that would listen.

I've never understood why so many people like the P90 & Five-Seven pisol. While they might look stylish, they are just underpowered, mouse guns IMO.

Give, me a proven .45ACP, .40S&W, 9mm or .357SIG pistol anyday or a 5.56, or 7.62x51 rifle or a 12ga. shotgun.

Graham

[Zentrandude]

Mainly a question but has anybody including gun companies tried making a working ammo counter like the pulse rifles has in aliens?

[Commander McBride]

One of the Japanese LMGs in WWII had an ammo counter on it. However, it was analog, obviously, and was known not to work particurlarly well. I think nobody's made one for a modern gun because it's unnecessary. Hardly anything holds more than 30 rounds, and it's not too hard for an expereinced fighter in combat to judge how much is left. With a weapon like a Pulse Rifle, that could hold in the area of 100 rounds, it'd be more necessary. Don't forget, also, that such a thing could give you away in a dark area, being a glowing LCD and all.

Edited April 24, 2005 by Commander McBride

[Zentrandude]

im sure the lcd glowing at night could be fixed like it goes directly to the landwarriors helmet display or something. But for civilians it doesn't matter too much

Im asking this since im saving up for the civvie f2000 (ouch 17 hundred bucks) and bullpup does have that disadvantage of loosing track on how much you have left even with a transparent plastic mag. It would be awkward to check each time unless you use it up.

Not too sure about experienced soldiers able to keep track on how much you have left in the mag mentaly, think it would be the last thing on your mind when your under fire. duck, look, blast, look some more, blast some more, change mag when stops firing (random order when adrenaline hits)

[Commander McBride]

Well, I know, even from my airsoft experience, that I know, almost instinctively, when it's time to drop the mag and slap another 30 rounder in. So it's not too hard. Plus, I usually take any oppurtunity to reload, so as not to change mags in combat, I figure the same would probably happen in real life.

As for civillian applications.... in what situation would it possibly be necessary to use more than 30 rounds in a defense role? We're talking at most two or three opponents in a civillian combat situation, not an army of ninjas or a horde of flesh-eating zombies.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I think the modern day switch to clear plastic mags has sort of done that. Easy to know how much ammo is left just by looking at the magazine. I can name about ten weapons off the top of my head that where built specifically with clear mags and I can name even more than have gotten them as aftermarket additions. They've made some massive steps forward with plastics these days. Then again even the older weapons all had some way of knowing how many rounds where in your weapon. 1911's had inspection holes as do Uzi mags and many others. Albeit they require you to pull the mag out and look at it but it sure helps.

A big factor in a "digital readout display" on a weapon is the fragility of it. Most main line combat weapons are supposed to be hard as nails, drop them from a helicopter and they still work weapons. That line is getting blurred more and more today with all these fancy futureguns that people think we need... yet old war horses like the AK47 keep soldiering on. All that fancy holosight, led, flashlight rangefinder crap works just fine in tests and on a rifle range but in combat it's just one more thing that can break and possibly put you at risk.

Heh, not really safer if you happen to be using it for self defence. You'd probaby have to empty the whole mag into a determined aggressor to stop them.

Heh, that was actually ammolab.com's opinion and not mine. I myself have faith in the .40 S&W round.

[Die, Alien Scum!]

Heh, that was actually ammolab.com's opinion and not mine. I myself have faith in the .40 S&W round.

Funny story... a couple of months ago some members of the Detroit police were complaining about the lack of stopping power of the .40 S&W round. Apparently, it failed to penetrate the insulated winter coat of one suspect. In another case, the round bounced off the suspect's skull. But it was later noted that this guy had a steel plate in his head, so that's not so surprising. Anyway, the police commissioner felt the same as you do and stated that these were isolated cases and the cops would continue to use the .40 S&W round rather than go back to 9mm.

[JsARCLIGHT]

In the Korean war you had GI's shooing Chicoms with their .30 carbine M1 rounds and the rounds hit the enemy, knocked them over, but basically bounced off their clothing and they got back up and kept coming. Range and other factors have a lot to do with the effectiveness of a round. Did they happen to say how close that perp was they shot with the coat?

As for the round bouncing off a skull that happens more often than you would think. The human skull is like a chicken egg, it is a natural shape that absorbs a lot of punishment and still won't break. For a bullet to penetrate the skull it needs to have a good straight hit and sufficient energy behind it. A lot of people "shot in the head" survive, more than you'd think, because the round fails to penetrate the bone of the skull.

[Shake n Bake]

And one shot of the "civilian" F2000.

FAP FAP FAP

Can't wait. Thank you FN Herstal

[Zentrandude]

In the Korean war you had GI's shooing Chicoms with their .30 carbine M1 rounds and the rounds hit the enemy, knocked them over, but basically bounced off their clothing and they got back up and kept coming. Range and other factors have a lot to do with the effectiveness of a round. Did they happen to say how close that perp was they shot with the coat?

As for the round bouncing off a skull that happens more often than you would think. The human skull is like a chicken egg, it is a natural shape that absorbs a lot of punishment and still won't break. For a bullet to penetrate the skull it needs to have a good straight hit and sufficient energy behind it. A lot of people "shot in the head" survive, more than you'd think, because the round fails to penetrate the bone of the skull.

koreans are smaller so killing them with a 30cal is bit overkill. bit funny that more effective weapons require bit of rasicism.

with todays technoly It should be goddly simple to make one. (already have a design that be use on most mag) as for durabily yah your right maybe. like have the info show up on the scope like a reddot or a much thicker plastic window to protect the lcd.

Edited April 25, 2005 by Zentrandude

[Zentrandude]

Well, I know, even from my airsoft experience, that I know, almost instinctively, when it's time to drop the mag and slap another 30 rounder in. So it's not too hard. Plus, I usually take any oppurtunity to reload, so as not to change mags in combat, I figure the same would probably happen in real life.

As for civillian applications.... in what situation would it possibly be necessary to use more than 30 rounds in a defense role? We're talking at most two or three opponents in a civillian combat situation, not an army of ninjas or a horde of flesh-eating zombies.

where i live its more for animal defence. walking around on the gravel road and boom a bear or cougar is infront of you and its starving (happens alot where i live) sure my trusty 10mm can kill it but you have to make each shot count. with a 223 like my ar I can just waste some to drive it way without needing to kill it or if i have to take it down.

[JsARCLIGHT]

On the subject of the whole "magazine capacity" issue, for most weapons 30 is the magic number. Due to spring tensions, right around 30 rounds is the maximum effective and reliable round count that can be put in a magazine. Any more and the performance of the magazine suffers. Sure you can make special magazines like the beta C, helical drum, rotary drum and others but those don't use the common box spring system. Case in point: a 30 round AR15 magazine is very reliable but the 40 rounders you see on the market have a tendancy to fail quite often. The factory 25 and 32 round Uzi mags are bulletproof when it comes to their track record but the hanky 40 and 50 round mags are plauged with issues. The Tec-9, besides being a boat anchor, has a standard 25 round mag. Sure there are super capacity stick mags available but they jam up the weapon ten times as much as the low cap types. Durring the development cycle of most modern arms many manufacturers have tinkered with spring fed 30+ large cap magazines and in almost every case right around 30 rounds in the box is the cutoff point for constant reliability.

As for the "who needs more than X number of rounds in a defensive position" argument there is a good degree of merit to that. Outside of a combat situation where you stand a chance of engaging multiple hostile targets at once, the need for high capacity firepower is sort of overkill in a civilian defensive role. Studies have shown that the old saying of "if you can't solve your problem in 6 shots, it ain't getting solved by you" is quite true. If you are a civilian protecting yourself from armed attackers and you have to do a magazine change you are in way over your head. No matter how well trained or "elite" you are, engaging multiple hostile targets by yourself is dangerous and best avoided alltogether. First rule of CCW training in most states is: run away. Draw down and run. Use your gun to provide you an exit, do NOT use it to escallate the situation. Do NOT stand and fight... as your problems and danger level will only increase minute by minute if the situation is not defused right off the bat. The longer a gun battle goes on the higher the chance of bad things happening such as hitting inocent people... although that is a danger from the start. Then again weapons with 30+ round magazines in pistol form are few and far between and are actually the ecception and not the rule. General rule of thumb on pistols is that they are defensive weapons... there are "offensive" pistols but most of those are simply semiauto conversions of SMGs.

As for animal encounters that is another story... especially in the case of pack animals. You stumble into a hutch of wolves, a pack of boar or other such hostile or predatory pack animal and you are in big trouble. Running away usually gets you in more trouble as animals will persue so a good high capacity magazine is your best friend in that sort of situation when fast reaction shooting is tantamount and you usually end up doing a rolling mag dump.

[Zentrandude]

no pack animals here or over 100 years. but plenty of aggresive bear. they dump the bears harrassing people here. the magic number is more like 27 to 29 with some rifles.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Here in the midwest have have very few if any bear... what we do have are pack animals like Boar and wolves/coyote. We also have problems with bobcats and cougars. Not really around my neck of the woods as I live in a dense urban center (saint louis) where the worst pack animal you will encounter are those annoying little sparrow birds I call "chippies" that steal your crackers off your plate at outdoor resturants downtown.

But in the backstate areas that are rural the threat from critters is high.

As for mag backloading that is almost necessary on most high cap mags. The only weapon I have ever owned that I did not need to backload was a Calico Liberty 9... but that POS had it's own share of issues that backloading a mag would never fix.

[Zentrandude]

we do have a large cougar population: the foresty dept deposited like 200,000 wild turkeys and within 6 months any that was above 1000 feet up was eaten by preditors.

we do have coyotes but always alone.

Edited April 25, 2005 by Zentrandude

[Ghadrack]

I went through this baby at length, and I didn't see any discussion of Ruger's Semi-Auto pistols, and nothing more than a joking reference to the Walther P99.

I am thinking of picking up a new 9mm and 45, and after fooling around with a buddies Ruger P95 I am thinking of snagging one of those, obviously, most people are inlove with the HK pistols, but they are a tad out of my price range.

Any thoughts on the Ruger and Walther pistols?

[Noriko Takaya]

the foresty dept deposited like 200,000 wild turkeys and within 6 months any that was above 1000 feet up was eaten by preditors.

That's really surprising considering that turkeys can see you coming from a mile away with that razor sharp eye sight of theirs.

[Zentrandude]

the foresty dept deposited like 200,000 wild turkeys and within 6 months any that was above 1000 feet up was eaten by preditors.

That's really surprising considering that turkeys can see you coming from a mile away with that razor sharp eye sight of theirs.

well our cougar population is huge but the weird thing is its very rare to see them eventhough they are large amount of signs. also they are much larger than normal.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Any thoughts on the Ruger and Walther pistols?

I once owned a Ruger GP100, a Redhawk .44 and a Walther P99 in .40.

All where excellent weapons. I ended up selling all of them to fund larger and more expensive weapons... I still wish I had kept that P99 though it is a nice little gun. Very handy and easy to use but some of my friends (who don't shoot much) complained that the recoil was a tad ferocious for such a small guy.

[Graham]

Any thoughts on the Ruger and Walther pistols?

I've very little shooting time with Ruger firearms, but I'll post my impressions.

I've shot the Ruger GP-100 revolver with both 4" & 6" tubes and also the SP-101 5 shot compact revolver. Their revolvers are strong as the proverbial brick sh*t house. Sights are pretty good and grips are comfortable for most hands. They are probably the strongest production double action revolvers made. Trigger pull in both double and single action while not too bad, can't compare with either S&W (the best) or Colt double action revolvers.

On the negative side, I did find that extraction of .357 magnum spent cases is not that smooth on some Ruger revolvers, as the cylinder chambers seem to be rougher than other brands of revolvers. There were several times I had to give the ejector rod a good hard whack to get the cases out, especially with CCI Blazer alumium cases. Never had this problem shooting Blazer with the S&W L-Frame 686 or Colt Python though.

I've also shot the Ruger MKII .22LR pistol, which is probably one of the most reliable .22 pistols and the Ruger 10/22 rifle with various barrel and stock configurations, again a good rifle if you want a .22 and great for customising as there are so many options available.

I've handled Redhawks, Super Redhawks, Blackhawks and various early Ruger 9mm and .45 pistols, but never had the chance to shoot one. To be honest the centerfire pistols seemed very blocky to me, with terrible triggers and a high bore axis. No one in our gun club owned one, although a gunclub we were affiliated with had some as rental guns.

Graham

[Graham]

I don't think I got to shoot the Walther P99, as IIRC it was just coming out when I quit my previous job at the gun shop/gun club.

I did handle an early one though and remember thinking the trigger felt very mushy. I did like the interchangeable backstrap feature though. Also, the flush 'no snag' decock button on top of the slide was a neat idea as well.

I seem to recall the P99 had a weird manual of arms, where you could pull back the slide to cock the gun and then manually push the trigger forward with your finger to the double action position. This would give you a single action pull weight, but with a double action length of pull.

I don't think the Walther P99 or it's American version the S&W99 have been adopted by a great many law enforcement agencies, which should tell you something.

I've always prefered full size service pistols with minimum modifications and based on my own shooting experience and personal preferences, the only handguns I would use for IPSC, IDPA or self defence (if I had that option) would by a Glock 17, Glock 21, Browning Hi-Power MKIII, S&W645, S&W745, S&W4506, S&W945 & SIG P226. I don't particulaly like 1911s, Berettas, or H&Ks for various reasons, which I'm not going to bore everybody with.

Graham

[JsARCLIGHT]

From what I remember of my P99 it did not really have the ability to push the trigger forward when cocked... what it did have however was Walther's sort of dumb "two stage" single action trigger. What that meant is that the trigger would return to full double action pull every time the trigger was pulled but it was mush from the double position to the single position. Their idea was that this allowed the shooter extra pull to commit to a shot... what it actually translated to in real life was this strange weak pull back to the single action position that resulted in quite a few of my friends "yank-firing" the weapon unintentionally expecting a firm DA trigger and getting a mush single with a mile of play in front of it. The P99 definately takes some getting used to but once you do it's unique feel is nice. I grew to love that little gun but alas he was just another pistol in a full lockbox and had to go. I'm thinking of getting another one, this time in 9 mil to replace my aging Browning Hi Power that has seen better days. Either that or I'll get one of those P22's and just plink bricks of .22 through it all day.

[Graham]

From what I remember of my P99 it did not really have the ability to push the trigger forward when cocked.

It's about 6-7 years (sheesh, that long) since I handled one, so my memory is not that clear.

Graham