Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[Opus]

I found the M202 operating manual online.

http://www.tpub.com/content/explosives/TM-...56-12/index.htm

[Kin]

I found the M202 operating manual online.

http://www.tpub.com/content/explosives/TM-...56-12/index.htm

cool

[twich]

I read recently that the USMC bought several thousand Glock 37's to possibly replace the Baretta M9....looks as though someone is relaly interested in the new 45GAP ammo.

Twich

[Warmaker]

I read recently that the USMC bought several thousand Glock 37's to possibly replace the Baretta M9....looks as though someone is relaly interested in the new 45GAP ammo.

Twich

.45, .40, whatever.

We needed to get rid of the 9mm already.

As a SNCO, I have to deal with the M9, which I have no confidence with. I'd rather have an M16A2 issued to me.

[Ghadrack]

Hola gents

I posted a couple months ago, but I buried the most important question I had in a bunch of AWB sunset stuff and it got lost, but here goes...

Do any of you guys have personal experience with the Armalite AR-10 family of rifles : Armalite Catalog

I have been contemplating picking up an AR-10 model A4 carbine, I was hoping to hear from some people that have had a chance to fire one that aren't Armalite message board posters who are obviously biased. I am looking for a new .308 rifle the Armalites seem to have a pretty good reputation, although they are a bit pricey but I want a good serviceable rifle that will stand the test of time if maintained. Anyhow, thoughts on the Ar-10 series or any competitors would be appreciated while I am still doing my homework for the impending purchase.

Thanks in advance.

[Opus]

Hola gents

I posted a couple months ago, but I buried the most important question I had in a bunch of AWB sunset stuff and it got lost, but here goes...

Do any of you guys have personal experience with the Armalite AR-10 family of rifles : Armalite Catalog

I have been contemplating picking up an AR-10 model A4 carbine, I was hoping to hear from some people that have had a chance to fire one that aren't Armalite message board posters who are obviously biased. I am looking for a new .308 rifle the Armalites seem to have a pretty good reputation, although they are a bit pricey but I want a good serviceable rifle that will stand the test of time if maintained. Anyhow, thoughts on the Ar-10 series or any competitors would be appreciated while I am still doing my homework for the impending purchase.

Thanks in advance.

My Pops has an AR-10. I think it's the AR-10B. It's OK but nothing special. The main problem I see with ARs is that they don't wear well. The internal components are made of heat treated powdered steel rather than milled from a solid block so they're hard on the outside and soft in the middle. Once they start to wear a little they get sloppy fast.

[bsu legato]

My Pops has an AR-10. I think it's the AR-10B. It's OK but nothing special. The main problem I see with ARs is that they don't wear well. The internal components are made of heat treated powdered steel rather than milled from a solid block so they're hard on the outside and soft in the middle. Once they start to wear a little they get sloppy fast.

Does that go for ALL AR-10s, or just the original Armalite rifles? I ask because nearly everybody in the AR field seems to make an AR-10 as well as an AR-15 these days.

[twich]

For a .308 rifle, I have been looking at a STG58 offered by DS Arms or there is always the old stand by of the M1A offered by Springfield Armory both of which have been proven battle rifles. I had a HK-91 clone offered by Century Arms which was a nice weapon to shoot, but I didn't like the looks or feel of the aluminum receiver, but that is just a personal preference thing to me...the weapon was very nice to shoot and had little recoil and was a snap to take apart and clean. The receiver came with an intergrated weaver rail and is now selling for only $500 or so, and the 20rd clips are so cheap it makes buying 30-40 of them very inticing.

I guess that it just comes down to what your personal preference is, but if I had the cash right now, I would go for the DSArms STG58 FN-FAL clone, which start at around $1400, but having held and fired one of these weapons, it is truly a beautiful weapon to behold.

Twich

[Opus]

My Pops has an AR-10. I think it's the AR-10B. It's OK but nothing special. The main problem I see with ARs is that they don't wear well. The internal components are made of heat treated powdered steel rather than milled from a solid block so they're hard on the outside and soft in the middle. Once they start to wear a little they get sloppy fast.

Does that go for ALL AR-10s, or just the original Armalite rifles? I ask because nearly everybody in the AR field seems to make an AR-10 as well as an AR-15 these days.

I don't know enough about all of the manufacturers but GI rifles use the molded parts and my Colt AR15 was the same until I had a local gunsmith replace the guts with parts he machined himself. Of course my Colt is older than I am. It doesn't even have a forward assist.

Js probably knows more.

[bsu legato]

or there is always the old stand by of the M1A offered by Springfield Armory both of which have been proven battle rifles.

I've heard some less than enthusiastic comments about Springfield lately, so you may want to rethink that. Despite what they advertise, you are not getting an all-new rifle. Springfield does stand by their product, so there's no issue about fighting to get them to honor the warranty, but it may be somethign you want to bear in mind. Aside from the receiver and stock, most of the parts are 40 year old USGI surplus parts. If I was down there, and had the cash for an M14 type rifle, I'd go for a Fulton Armory M1A. AFAIK, they use a proper forged receiver.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Opus is correct that most "mil spec" AR15 rifles use cheap cast internal parts... thank uncle sucker for that one. There are lots of nice high quality forged and milled internal parts sets around to replace your stock AR guts if need be but I should point out that an AR10, while similair in design and function to an AR15, does not take AR15 parts most of the time. Especially the newer AR10's being offered on the market.

Most of the current issue of AR10 made by several different makers are sort of "hybrid" weapons. They feature the action and semi-direct function of the old classic AR10 but they have several new "enhancements" that have changed them into new beasts. Take for instance the new Bushmaster BAR10 series... they have a lot of altered design elements that benefit their newly "retasked" nature as target rifles. Owning and operating a new generation AR10 clone is about the same operating cost and commitment as owning a good brand name AR15. The downside is that aftermarket and mod parts are not as available due to the design differences between makes and the inherant differences between the 15 and the 10.

As for the overall build of an AR15/10, this picture says a thousand words. This is an x-ray of an AR. The "see through" parts are all plastic and hard forged alluminum. The opaque parts are cast steel. Kinda freaky.

[twich]

Okay JsArclight, I know you are a real big fan of the AR-15, so let me ask you. What would you call the best AR-15 rifle in terms of quality and cost? I like the fact that the .223 is so light and the rifles are lighter than a .308 rifle.

I have looked at Colt, Bushmaster and Armalite.....who is best? Who is the most cost effective?

Twich

Edited March 8, 2005 by twich

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm going to go douche bag on you and say that the best rifle there is is the one custom built either by or for you. The only way to ensure quality and craftsmanship is to build your own... but many people don't think they have the skills to pull off something like that. I've built all the current AR's I own all the way down to installing the barrels myself. Once you know what you are doing you can tweak and tinker on an AR until it is an extension of your arm... the same goes with any weapon. The trick is getting a good rifle off the bat to "learn on" so you don't spend all your time trying to keep it running.

My personal opinion is that you cannot go wrong with one of the big four AR's: Colt, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms or DPMS. Colt and Bushie are on the high end of price while RRA and DPMS are "more reasonable". Stay far away from the discount no-name bargain basement AR's unless you personally know the person who built it. Also, never pay "retail". You can get a good Bushmaster at 2/3 the price they show on their website on any given day if you look. If you do eventually go the "build your own" route then you could easily buy a cheapie no-name milspec stripped forged or milled lower and use quality parts on it to make a nice weapon. The secret to a good AR is in the parts and the barrel... anyone can cast or forge a receiver these days but it takes a quality maker to turn out a good rifle.

I would also say don't get too wowed and buy into all the current hardware jazz. You really don't need all those laser scope, red dot, flashlight, forward grip, hologram shenanigans on your gun. My personal opinion is less is more. Old A1 Irons and a reliable magazine is all that a quality weapon should need to tack drive at 100 yards+ for me. I'd say get yourself a nice A2 carbine or full rifle as a "learning gun" and when you have gone as far as you can with a stock weapon you can trade up to a fancier piece or even just mod out your stock rifle. That is the glory of an AR, the whole "plug and play" drop on uppers.

Start simple and with practice see what you need. No need to spend, spend, spend on something you may end up hating. AR15's are an aquired taste.

I know I say this every time but if there is anyone out there who wants to build their own AR I gladly help people out with info and instruciton. Heck, a month does not go by that I don't IM instruct someone through building out an AR lower it seems.

[bsu legato]

Ok, this is a wee bit on the political side, but its something I think my fellow gun owners should be made aware of. This is something I'm reposting from the canadiangunnutz.com boards, about our "friends" in the UN. Suddenly, emmigrating to the US seems a lot more appealing.

As we approach April 1st i just wanted to remind everyone that you have 1 year to purchase anymore guns you want , and then it's over . Our Liberal government sponsered the United Nations agreement on Small Arms and Light Weapons even though none of the countries that actually manufacture Small Arms signed on .

As of April 1st 2006 every firearm that enters Canada will require a special United Nations marking on it as well as parts and components . The current thinking is that a laser etching will do it but since guns are made of steel , aluminum , alloys and polymers there is no way it can be done to United Nations specification .

The Canadian market is about 2% of American manufacturers sales and in order to comply a manufacturer would first have to produce the firearm , remove it from inventory , remove the packaging , clean and de-grease it , set up special fixtures for every different model and make of firearm , somehow distinctly engrave it , return it to inventory after re-lubing and grease it , all without knowing if they have a Canadian sale . The American manufacturers are not going to do it .

There is a part two . If we foolishly dream that some manufacturer would jump through all of the hoops , ad $500.00 to the price of a gun and do all of the paperwork the Liberal agreement still stops the trade by way of end user certificates .

The manufacturer will have to document the end user after jumping through all of the other hoops . The way the system works now an importer orders firearms from a manufacturer , brings them into Canada and then distributes them to wholesalers who then distributes them to retailers and then we purchase and register them . After April 1st 2006 the manufacturer will have to supply the Canadian gov't and the United Nations with an end user certificate for the final buyer .

The manufacturer has no idea who the end user will be and that combined with the United Nations engraving ends firearms coming into Canada and if the firing pin breaks on a firearm that you currently own , too bad , that's the whole idea .

Does it sound like a bad conspiracy theory ? It isn't a theory , it's fact . The CSSA is fighting this with every resource but the resources are drying up . Wendy and her crew have NGO (non governmental organization) status at the United Nations funded by the Liberals with out tax dollars .

The CSSA has recieved NGO status but money (membership) will determine the fight and there is only one meeting left before final ratification . The way the agreement is set up is that any country that want's to climb aboard , does so and any country that opts out , does so . The Americans and even the Chinese have told the United Nations where they can stick this but Canada sponsered it , and the Liberals put us on board .

It's all over , very soon but there is time to fund one more fight .

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/

F*ck the UN!

[Jemstone]

Ok, this is a wee bit on the political side, but its something I think my fellow gun owners should be made aware of. This is something I'm reposting from the canadiangunnutz.com boards, about our "friends" in the UN. Suddenly, emmigrating to the US seems a lot more appealing.

F*ck the UN!

My only question is that if you buy a gun in the US and try to take it with you to Canada, can customs confiscate them using this law? I know the post office is a pain in the butt enough with customs agents.

[captain america]

If you have all the proper paperwork, and if the gun type isn't restricted, you can get a gun purchased in the US and bring it into Kanada. You probably won't be allowed to bring it over personally though. This is possible for the time being.

Once the UN neo-nazi law comes into effect next year, if the firearm doesn't have the UN serial number, it will probably be confiscated by Kanada customs.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I just found this pic a tad too funny. Substitute "Americans" with "Canadians" and it's even funnier...

... or maybee not.

Edited April 2, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[bsu legato]

Here's a report of small arms performance in Iraq.

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

[Ghadrack]

I had some fun over the weekend I thought I would share

A buddy of mine moved back into town and wanted to go up to the range this past weekend and put his old riot shotgun through it's paces, he has an old 12 guage remington police riot shotgun his father passed down to him about 6 years ago, I cleaned up my mom's old Mossberg 500 "Special Purpose" 12 guage she bought from a cop friend when he decided to upgrade and we headed up to the range.

Unbeknownst to us, the range had gone under new ownership and they closed their pistol and rifle ranges and went to strictly a skeet/trap range. Well, we didn't want to leave with all that ammo and the range owner said any shotguns were fine on the range so long as we adhered to the club rules so we got in line and got a skeet lane after a 20 minute wait as spectators admiring the other shooters $2000.00 Bennelli's and such, the doctor/dentist skeet crowd..

Anyhow, so we grab our lane and head down, I gotta say, I had more fun shooting skeet with those to stubby riot guns than I ever had with a long gun, and they were easily twice as loud as the other guns on the range, after about 20 rounds each we had a pretty decent crowd gathered wondering what the hell we were doing up there with riot shotguns on the skeet range, but it also may have been the giggling between rounds .

Anyhow, just thought I would share a pointless gun related story. Any of you guys ever et to play with the Benelli M1014 tactical shotgun? I wonder if they are really worth $....

[Mechamaniac]

Ahh, yes, you gotta love the snotty elitist zillion dollar shotgun crowd. The kind of guys who end a long day's shooting fake clay birds with sipping merlot, and discussing the DOW.

The gun store I used to work at had a few such patrons, one dude bought a Krieghoff clay birds gun SIGHT UNSEEN from our boss just because he called him, and said, Hey, I have a gun you want, price? a mere $10,000. Must be nice to have more money than you know what to do with.

Anyway, in a related story, pics are forthcoming for what I am sure was the first ever Macross World Shootout!.

The weekend before last, a few of us local members gathered together our hoglegs, and went to the range. We had a blast shooting each other's guns, putting a few holes in some specially prepared "Basara" targets. Afterwards, we hit a local gun shop, slobbered over some nice stuff we can't afford, and then headed back to my place for meat cooked over fire, and general anime dorkdom.

[JsARCLIGHT]

It was such a nice weekend here that I also went to the range. I've had a busted arm for a few weeks now and this was the first time I felt decent enough to try my arm out on the range so I went.

Nothing special here, took out the AR A1 and my G21 for some "fundamentals" shooting. The range here was packed so I only had an hour of range time before getting booted.

I also just got word that the paperwork came through on my Vector Uzi so that should be comming into my grubby possession next week or the week after. I might post a pic of it if people are interested, but everyone knows what an Uzi looks like so it won't be anything special.

I like the idea of Basara targets... I printed up some Bin Laden targets for my cop friends and they loved them. Back before my unfortunate arm accident I and my friends shot the crap out of an old lawnmower and other things. It's an unspoken feeling of joy to do mag dumps on an old central park lawnmower... and then when one of my friends pulled out his Barrett and just smoked the engine it was a sight to behold.

(JsARCLIGHT takes off his gomer hillbilly hat)

[bsu legato]

By freakish coincidence (or not), I too was out shooting on Sunday. This was the first weekend its been nice enough, and I've been free enough, to spend some time at the range. I had brought nearly all my toys with me but the wind began picking up shortly after we arrived so I had to rush a little before it got too gusty.

First up was the M1. Not surprisingly it shot flawlessly, and the new lithium grease I "borrowed" from work worked like a charm on the bolt & receiver. By the time I switched to the Kar98k the wind was getting too strong to do anything usefull, and after only 5 shots I packed the rifles in. Switching to pistols, I ran a few mags through the 1911 just to get the feel for it back after the looooong winter months. Then with the wind getting almost unbearable, it was the moment I had been waiting for since last October. I unlocked the Colt 1851 Navy and loaded it up. The first cylinder was shot offhand, just to confirm everything worked as it was supposed to. The next 12 were benched so that I could get a true feel for what this pistol was capable of. I was quite honestly shocked. At 20 yds it managed a group roughly 2 1/2", with the exception of one flyer that was completely my fault. More amazing was the fact that with 21grains of FFFG it shot nearly to point of aim! Here I was expecting it to shoot anywhere from 6" to 12" high. By this point it was too windy to do anything so I packed up and went home, but knowing just how well my Colt shoots made the trip worthwhile.

[Zentrandude]

luck I need to get out to dial in my guns but it won't happen till end of april and when im reloaded all this 223.

[Noriko Takaya]

Anyway, in a related story, pics are forthcoming for what I am sure was the first ever Macross World Shootout!.

The weekend before last, a few of us local members gathered together our hoglegs, and went to the range. We had a blast shooting each other's guns, putting a few holes in some specially prepared "Basara" targets. Afterwards, we hit a local gun shop, slobbered over some nice stuff we can't afford, and then headed back to my place for meat cooked over fire, and general anime dorkdom.

And you didn't even invite me. I've been itching to unload my 30 round M16 mags all winter too...

[Chowser]

w, just thought I would share a pointless gun related story. Any of you guys ever et to play with the Benelli M1014 tactical shotgun? I wonder if they are really worth $....

Not the M1014 with folding stock, but we have Benelli M4 Super 90s in the basic configuration in our cars and they seem to have been holding up fine. I paid just over $400 for my personal one, but that price was given after finishing armorer's class so i don't know what retail value is. but it was worth what i paid. also got an old remington 870 that our dept. sold to a bunch of us when they switched to the Benellis. Gotta say, this old pump is running strong.

We just happened to be shooting this weekend as well. We had car doors, old vests and some old kevlar helmets and a 10'x6'x2" piece of bullet resistent glass that some bank gave us to shoot at. it stopped all our handgun ammo. best regular handgun round that did the most damage was my .357 SIG with Corbons (115 gr.@1500fps). but some of us with our AP handgun rounds did quite a bit of damage, didn't penetrate all the way through, but it was pretty nifty. the 9mm version penetrated more than the 40. i wonder why, the 9 is rated at 1550 fps with a 65 grain bullet, and the 40 is 1500 fps with a 95 gr. bullet. now, i wonder if i can pull some of the 9mm bullets and reload it into .357 sig, think of the velocities i could get...don't know if the bullet is compatible with .357 though... too bad they won't let us carry this stuff.

also, older vests (8+ years) that were all kevlar stopped rounds better than newer mixed material vests. go figure. guess you give up stopping ability for comfort.

[Chowser]

oh, forgot to ask,

anyone one have any experience with the Beta C mags for the AR-15 types?

[JsARCLIGHT]

oh, forgot to ask,

anyone one have any experience with the Beta C mags for the AR-15 types?

I own a beta C. My advice is if you are getting it as a range toy they are fine... but they have a few quirks that make them not too stable for use in the field. Thanks to the end of the ban they are actually affordable now, if you consider $300 affordable for a magazine.

Two pieces of advice on them though, don't loose that loader tool and make sure you lube up the mag regularly. Beta C's seem to only like to load using that five round pusher they come with... don't try to use a line loader or a bushmaster zip loader as for some reason trying to load more than five rounds at a time causes the internal mechansim to bunch up. Handloading a Beta C is nearly impossible... you can load about ten rounds by hand before it becomes too tight to handload. And always use the graphite lube how the little booklet says every now and then to keep the rollers inside lubed.

Oh and it goes without saying: Beta C mag dump = BAD. I've seen trigger happy folks burn paint off of muzzle breaks, melt handguards and even cook barrels by doing 100 round dumps out of their Betas.

[bsu legato]

Oh those wacky Chinese...they've been watching too much Trigun. Case in point, the PRC M77

[Zentrandude]

Oh those wacky Chinese...they've been watching too much Trigun. Case in point, the PRC M77

I see parts breaking.

[Graham]

From the photo it looks like pulling on the triggger guard partially retracts the slide so that you can check the chamber. Is that correct?

Looks like an accident waiting to happen IMO. I can just see somebody accidently pulling on the trigger instead of the trigger guard...BOOM.....instant AD. or perhaps ND would be more appropriate.

Graham

[Commander McBride]

From the photo it looks like pulling on the triggger guard partially retracts the slide so that you can check the chamber. Is that correct?

Looks like an accident waiting to happen IMO. I can just see somebody accidently pulling on the trigger instead of the trigger guard...BOOM.....instant AD. or perhaps ND would be more appropriate.

Graham

No, actually, it allows you to cock the slide and chamber a round one-handed. An early walther or browning or something had a similar feature, in a WW1-era model.

[CoryHolmes]

Has any new pics or information been released about the civilian P-90? I do so love that gun

[JsARCLIGHT]

That finger cocking chinese job is an accident waiting to happen in my eyes as well... just because it works in sci fi does not mean it is a good idea in real life. Trigger and cocking trigger so close together... As for one handed reload cocking, the dependable and very sweet H&K P7M13 / M8 is the best of the best in that respect. I managed to lay my hands on a M13 a while back... blued of course. Nice little guns, mechanical works of art. Too bad they are so freaking expensive and banned from further importation. Fastest reload and shoot money can buy, the best C&C weapon on the market. Anything else attempting to cycle a slide with a lever or button is just clumsy at best... thus why no one really tries to do it anymore.

As for the civvie P-90 I keep hearing october this year as a release date... however that date as well as the actual release of it or not are still up in the air. Several key factors in the weapons' legal status are still pending and no one I have talked to has heard anything about it passing the BATF for legal sale in the US yet. A lot of mechanical changes are needed to make the weapon besides the longer barrel for legality, so basically the civilian P90 will be a completely different animal than the real submachine gun. Rumors keep flying around that the civvie version will not take the SMG mags and will only take special US made lower capacity magazines. Even more rumors are bouncing around that they will have to be 100% built in the US to be legal...

For all we know congress could ban the 5.7 round (along with .50 cal rifles) before the thing even comes out and make all of this a moot point. There are several house bills in action right now to do just that.

Edited April 21, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Die, Alien Scum!]

This site has some info on the civilian P90, or PS90, as they're calling it. And it does look like it will only accept it's own special 30 round mags instead of the 50 round high-caps. Also, there's only one type of 5.7 x 28 ammo that will be sold to civilians, so forget about any armor-piercing rounds. Edited April 21, 2005 by Die, Alien Scum!

[JsARCLIGHT]

Most of what Impact has listed on their site is rumored to be just that, rumor. I know they have changed that info several times to reflect the current state of rumor on the weapon. Most people are taking what they say with a grain of salt. FN USA, the company who is to make the weapon is being very tight lipped right now because even they do not know if the civilian P90 is going to be made or not. There are a lot of rules the weapon has to abide by to be made legal for sale in the US and FN has yet to announce how they plan to follow those.

As for the ammo question the Civvie P90 is in the same boat as the Five seveN pistol (called the IOM in the US)... the only ammo available is that ball training round, non AP. But the weapons can still chamber and fire the restricted AP ammo and that is what all the gun grabbers are obsessing on and the big reason these things may be banned before they even hit the streets.

Oh and it goes without saying: don't preorder something until you actually see it. Several people have been burned on "vaporware" firearm preorders in the past. Impact was taking deposits originally to preorder the civvie P90 but a lot of complaints and questions about the weapon prompted them to stop and instead just start a waiting list for them. They, of course, will probably deny that but there was quite the hullabaloo on AR15.com about them and this weapon a while back.