Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[pfunk]

For as much as I love my AR's I have to agree with Mech, they are combat weapons. 5.56 ammo superpenetrates... that is what they designed it to do. For plinkin' guns they are great but for home defense they are hazzardous. That is why I have my trusty G21 and my SPAS 12.

nice, I like to use my 50cal sniper for home defense

I like my 45 with remington hollows

[Opus]

I think it's about time my house had a rifle in it.

[soapbox] I seriously hope you're not considering using an AR for home defense.

Or...if you are, I hope that you don't live in any sort of Townhouse/Row House neighborhood, or a single family neighborhood where the houses are close together.

Even slowed down ALOT, 5.56MM will still penetrate sheet rock like a hot knife through butter, and I'm sure you'd rather not drill one of your neighbors accidentally. [/soapbox]

Come on now, Chowser's a cop. I think he knows better.

[Zentrandude]

To JsARCLIGHT,

since you're the resident AR15 expert,

what do you think of the

Bushmaster version (XM15 E2S M4A2),

or should I get the Colt version?

I think it's about time my house had a rifle in it.

Well, the only thing that can really be said is that when it comes to AR15 type rifles brand name matters. The top teir of makers such as Bushy, Colt, Rock River and DPMS can be counted on to be very reliable and well made (provided you maintain them). Colts are usually at the top of the price meter of those four and DPMS and Rock River usually fight for the lowest priced. I myself own one Colt weapon and one Bushmaster, but I built those two myself so they are sort of "special" and cannot be thought of us indicative of "Stock" quality. I have owned a few stock units in my time and I can say that on par Bushmaster is the best with superior fit and finish along with a very methodical "stick to milspec" build. Colt can get crazy with all the modding they have done to their "match target" rifles and finding replacement parts can be a bear at times. DPMS and Rock are solid makes and I know many officers who have those as trunk guns and they swear by them.

I guess when it comes to AR15's the rule of thumb is not neccessarily who to buy but who to avoid. Avoid buying an off-brand or cheap brand weapon. Places like Hesse, Olympic, American Arms and the like are nice and all but many of their parts are made from pot metals and lack chrome finishing or quality workmanship. Also if possible (and if you intend to rely on this weapon in life or death situations such as for work) have a qualified gunsmith or custom builder look it over and install some wolf springs and other "reliability" upgrades to make the guts pound a bit harder.

It should also be noted that Bushmaster purchased Professional Ordinance and they now own the "Carbon 15" brand of AR15 clone. They are doing some nice things with those weapons, check out their site for more details.

I'm surprised you never mention the springs. They are hard to find by themselves unless you go to a gunshow.

myself I perfer olypic over a bushmaster I had, I didnt like the slow rate of fire the bushmaster had with the heavier hammer.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Wolfs are common nowadays, I can name about ten places online to get them. A while back you could only get them at gunshows but now they are everywhere.

As for the slower rate of fire resulting from the weight of the hammer that is not as true as the cheaper buffer and spring Olympic uses. Bushy buffers are heavier with harder springs to reduce rate of fire, the hammer weight is almost inconsequential on the action... it might lower the RPM by about 50 and when you are talking a weapon that on automatic can reach 950 RPM with a loose buffer it is almost unnoticeable in a semi.

[Zentrandude]

I have to disagree about the bushmaster having heavier springs when i was talking to the guy who sold me the springs he says he gets lots of customers who own bushmaster/colt/olyimpic/armalite...ect just all of them. At the time I bought them you couldn't get them seperate from the rebuilt kit (i remember the websites from all the companies I looked up said they won't sell alone it for somereason.)

now if i can remember the spring that im talking about. i tend to forget names of small parts.

Might been the disconnector spring. My neighbor has a bushmaster that wont fire since he broke his year or 2 ago.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Bushie's lower parts springs are all milspec but their buffer springs are heavier than stock to reduce the rate of fire. Just about everyone on the market uses milspec lower parts kits and springs with that you are right. That is why I recommend people buy Wolf spring kits for their lowers to replace the milspec springs. I think we have been talking about the same things.

As for your hammer the hammer in the Oly is most likely the same hammer that is in the Bushie... unless your lower for some reason has a 9mm hammer installed by mistake.

Edit to add: Lower parts and guts tend to not be the big dividing line in AR15's... the upper receiver tends to be the make or break piece of the weapon. The "big four" mentioned above almost always have the best uppers with the best barrels. The cheaper makers tend to skimp on many important things and also tend to have much sloppier barrel mounting. You can slap a Colt or Bushie upper on a Oly lower however and still make a nice weapon... just dump that oly upper in the trash. Hesse on the other hand is pure crap, everything they make is junk... finding an opinion contrary to that is hard.

Edited December 1, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[Zentrandude]

reason why this guy makes tons of money selling just the parts themselves. would you buy a kit at 30 bucks a pop or 1 dollar for the spring its self. I belive these are mil spec springs. Oddly you can find lots of parts in the gun shows that came off the factory including ammo casing and bullets.

but don't try to convert me, in the field for a week the bushmaster I had just wasn't up to par.

Oh i forgot to mention with the home defence. I keep a 10mm pistol for that role.

[Chowser]

I've got my Benelli for home defense

The rilfe will be my SPORT UTILITY RIFLE or my HOMELAND DEFENSE RIFLE.

I just figured, hey, handgun, shotgun, i'm missing a rifle (well, my buddy's got an anti-aircraft gun sitting in his barn, so i guess i might want one of those too, j/k )

the neighboring dept. is either planning on selling off some of their older Bushmaster M4s or trading them in and my cpl. is going to try and get the deal, so i might be able to snag one for cheap from him; after they remove the 3-rd burst trigger, of course...

(hey, i got my benelli w/14" barrel and sure-fire light in super shape for $350, so I shouldn't complain too much)

for ammo, all we have are, I think Federal softtips, so ammo is always free for me as long as we have it. so, what's a good .223 round that i should convince my commander to buy?

Edited December 1, 2004 by Chowser

[Zentrandude]

shame they taking out the burst but legality issues but your cop get some paperwork filed or something. The cap or liet (the head guy) that lives here has some insane weapons which include cannons of diffent sizes that he shoots off during 4th of july to impress people in his party, one of those old hand crank gattling guns, a chrome plated thommy gun (I belived he took it from the department after hearing about this old lady turn one in with the same charactisics), tons of hand guns and rifles.

[bsu legato]

The rilfe will be my SPORT UTILITY RIFLE or my HOMELAND DEFENSE RIFLE.

I don't think a rifle can be classed as such unless it is chambered in a caliber no less than .30

Kidding aside, forget the varmit rifle and get yourself a real MBR.

[JsARCLIGHT]

but don't try to convert me, in the field for a week the bushmaster I had just wasn't up to par.

Not trying to convert anyone here, Chowser just asked me for my opinion.

My true opinion is that when it comes to AR15's I do not fully trust a weapon I did not build myself from a kit. Now I'm not going to fool anyone into thinking I break out a lathe and a CNC machine and turn my own barrels or anything but every weapon I have built myself from a kit has been a spectacular performer... mostly because in the process of building you can personally assure the quality of the parts and the fittings.

When it comes to manufactured arms like Bushies and Colts and etc it is all personal opinion... There are of course good ones and bad ones. Just look at the Toynami MPC. My personal opinion is that they are crap as that was my personal experience and the majority of the feedback I hear about them but there are still people out there that like them. I know a lot of people who just love their Hesse guns and their Oly rifles, but they are in the far minority compared to the satisfied Bushy, Rock, DPMS and Colt owners out there. Heck, I even know a guy who has a freaking home-made lower receiver AR15 that is the buggiest piece of crap I have ever seen... but he built it with his own hands and he loves the heck out of it.

It's just too bad many gun stores do not have a "test drive" policy on new weapons... another reason I borrow before build and build before buy when possible.

EDIT: Also do not forget that like many other weapons the MAGAZINEs you use with your AR15 affect reliability and performance as much if not more than the actual build of the weapon itself. You can have a precision weapon that tests flawlessly but if you jam a POS $10 USA Mag into it you can expect crap results. Military mags and Colt/Namebrand mags are the only way to go. Stay far away from the thermolds or orlites unless they are brand new and avoid any mag that has a blank floorplate.

Edited December 1, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[JsARCLIGHT]

what's a good .223 round that i should convince my commander to buy?

First off make sure of the chambering of your weapon. Domestic .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO are actually different rounds and a weapon chambered in .223 Rem cannot handle 5.56 and is considered "dangerous" to operate it in those chambers. Bushy weapons are all 5.56 NATO chamber which allows both to be used. For thsoe who ask the Domestic .223 Remingon and 5.56 NATO round differ in a few key areas, most having to do with powder power and case thickness and size. They are conventionally lumped together because any milspec weapon chambered in 5.56 can eat .223 but not vice versa.

As for actual ammo I tend to only shoot SS-109. I get it locally cheap... well... relatively cheap. As far as performance goes our boys in combat use it so I do too . There are lots of flavors of milspec and penetrating ammo out there in 5.56 but for the most part the strength of the cartridge is in it's chambering and design so a hollowpoint or hollow nose just adds a tiny bit to the weapon. Plus splat rounds are useless for hard target penetration (what the weapon is designed to do) so why buy them in my opinion.

[Zentrandude]

You can have a precision weapon that tests flawlessly but if you jam a POS $10 USA Mag into it you can expect crap results. Military mags and Colt/Namebrand mags are the only way to go. Stay far away from the thermolds or orlites unless they are brand new and avoid any mag that has a blank floorplate.

Well thats bit flawed. I use a system of getting a lot of mags that are 12 bucks each (usualy they are used GI mags), test them out and keep the ones that work with the rifle and pass on the ones that don't perform as well with the rifle. The only time my rifle has jammed when I start reloading my ammo to get the acceptable sets the rifle likes, ever since then its great.

Guess I'll tell a story that better built doesn't mean better.

In the late 80 my friend bought a glock and he was saying all the praises how glocks are good this and that, his dad came over and looked at his glock then went back to his house to get out his old beat up 1911 when he was in the army. he took one last good look at each other and drop them in a mud puddle and he even stompped on them to make sure. He took out the glock first, pulled the trigger and click nothing happen. He then took out his 1911, aimmed and pop a round off. Shut my friend up about his glock.

[JsARCLIGHT]

You are still saying the same thing I am. A brand new USA mag costs $10. A used GI mag built by a name brand company like LeSalle or Adventureline costs about $12... when it costs about $20 to $30 new. My point was not price but the make and quality of the magazine. A USA mag is crap, a name brand GI mag is not. Try to sell a blank floorplate mag to an experienced AR shooter and they will turn it down but offer a box of used GI mags and they will gobble them up.

Also your story about the Glock versus the 1911 is nonsequitor... it does not say anything about "better built" it just shows that dumping a weapon in the mud and then trying to shoot it is always a hit or miss thing. I know more 1911's that have operational problems than glocks, those things are so fussy and tempermental that most of the time it requires a gunsmith just to get them to work right out of the box. If anything the 1911 is a perfect example of a better made gun not being all the difference. I know people who own Norino 1911s that shoot better than thousand dollar Wlison Combat 1911's.

As I keep saying there are always exceptions to the opinions of others, sometimes what one person thinks is "the best" is not the same as what another person thinks. It's all opinion in the end.

[Commander McBride]

Speaking of Wilson Combat, does anyone have any experience with the Wilson ARs? They have a pretty good reputation as a 1911 builder, but are their rifles up to par?

[JsARCLIGHT]

The big thing about Wilson Combat AR's are their barrels... but it should be noted that Rock River Arms also stocks and uses Wilson's barrels in their weapons. I myself have not seen a Wilson AR in person yet but from what I hear they are on par with Rock River weapons... just a tad more expensive and finished in that green "armor tuff" (or whatever they call it) finish.

[Noriko Takaya]

Well, this is an airsoft related issue for those of you interested who reside in the state of Maryland. Those of you familiar with what was once know as Bob's Coin and Gun located in Annapolis next to the Popeye's on West Street is now an airsoft shop. The new owner just opened shop this week and is still stocking, but he claims he will be stocking everything from Tokyo Marui, Classic Army, Top, and a few others I am unfamiliar with. He has a pretty good selection of Classic Army M4 type rifles and they look pretty good. I am surprised at how much the CA M4 weighs, as it feels as if I am holding my own Bushie M4. He is also going to sell REAL firearms as well, and he has a couple hanging on the wall, including a Chinese made AK-47, a Heckler & Koch Model 91 rifle, and a semi-auto Thompson. If you live in the surrounding area you might want to take a look.

[VF19]

I don't trust classic army rifles. Too many of them have broken in my friends hands. TM G36c, P90, and G3 series all the way!

[CoryHolmes]

What's the general opinion on bullpup-style rifles, like FN's P-90? Good, bad, so-so?

[Smiley424]

I can't say I have a professional opinion as I don't own a gun, yet, and have only fired an AK-47 (in Vietnam couple summers ago when my family went back on vacation. that gun has quite a kick). From what I understand though, bullpup configuration allows you to make the gun more compact in size which gives the weapon operator more control and reduces recoil and gun climb. So from that standpoint I think they'd be good, though I'm no expert. The FAMAS and Steyr AUG are two other bullpup assault rifles (I think the Steyr Aug is a cool looking rifle).

[Opus]

The idea behind the bullpup is to give the soldier a full legth barrel on a carbine legth rifle. The problem is balace. They're butt heavy which makes them hard to control on full auto. The thing I don't like about them is that they're not very left hander-friendly. Unless you like hot brass in the face.

[CoryHolmes]

The idea behind the bullpup is to give the soldier a full legth barrel on a carbine legth rifle. The problem is balace. They're butt heavy which makes them hard to control on full auto. The thing I don't like about them is that they're not very left hander-friendly. Unless you like hot brass in the face.

Huh. All the research I found on the P-90 says the casings eject out the bottom of the gun and not into anyone's face. It also says that the weapon is completely ambidexterous MISB.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Huh. All the research I found on the P-90 says the casings eject out the bottom of the gun and not into anyone's face. It also says that the weapon is completely ambidexterous MISB.

Opus was referring to Bullpup rifles such as the AUG and the FA MAS, who's ambi ejectors sit just about even with the shooter's cheek. The FN P90 is technically classified as a SMG but beside that point it sports a totally different action than the rifles. The FA MAS and AUG, while being bullpup designs, are still traditional layout weapons in respect to prime function of their actions... the FN P90 uses a different type of action with a lateral stack, top feed magazine.

As for the pros and cons of the bullpup design most of them are personal preference issues. The benefits, already talked about, are the ability to have a longer barrel in a shorter weapon which increases your potential for accuracy. The down sides though are that some bullpups can be very heavy compared to traditional designs and their "remote" trigger location relies on very long action bars or "transfer bars" to activate their hammers. These very long trigger action bars create very stiff trigger pulls on the weapons due to the long distance (all relative mind you) they have to move across to perform the same action that a weapon who's internals are just right there above the trigger. I've shot a few bullpup weapons in my time, notably the AUG and the Bushmaster M17 rifle. My personal opinion on them is that while they have the potential for accuracy they tend to fall into carbine accuracy anyway due to their cramped "Italian Ape" firing position you take while using them. Combine that with their stiff triggers and in the case of the Bushy M17 it heats up like a stove in seconds and almost becomes too hot to handle (stupid metal body). The weapons are also very, very buttheavy as Opus said. Their muzzles tend to rise like cake on automatic firing. Also magazine changes can be... difficult for some people. A normal weapon it's push button swap mag, but on a bullpup you have to reach under your arm while pointing the weapon at the sky to change the magazine. Heck, in the case of the FN P90 it takes a degree in engineering to change the magazine... on a demo of that weapon I saw at the local police department even the trained professionals demonstrating it had a rough go of changing the mags. It is also my personal opinion that the bullpup rifles appear louder than normal weapons because the action is on the side, right there next to your ear. Admittedly normal weapons' actions are still close to your head but they are in front of your ears and somehow the action being right there next to your ear for me creates this louder sensation.

In short they have their benefits but they also have their weaknesses, the biggest of which is the remote location of the trigger assembly. Due to this bullpup rifles, unless they are painstakingly engineered, tend to have more teething issues than normal traditional rifle designs. The Brittish L85/SA80 is a prime example.

[Syngyne]

The thing I don't like about them is that they're not very left hander-friendly. Unless you like hot brass in the face.

The FN F2000 is supposed to be ambidextrous. It ejects its casings forward.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Syngyne

[JsARCLIGHT]

Pretty much every bullpup weapon on the market is ambi capable if not ambi right out of the box. Most of the older ones like the AUG, FA MAS and M17 can be ambi with a few parts changes.

Heck, any weapon can be ambi with a few parts changes.

The capacity for use by lefties is not really a new thing or even a unique feature when it comes to bullpup weapons. Ambi weapons have been around for a while. The only "new concept" is that of a rifle that requires no alteration to be used by either a righty or a lefty.

Edit: and it should be said that most current weapons on the market to a good degree are ambidexterous. The only thing that keeps a lefty from shooting a rightie's rifle is the casing ejection... but most modern military type weapons have casing deflectors that are supposed to prevent you from getting brass in your cornea. Being a right handed shooter myself I have no experience shooting leftie to tell you otherwise.

Edited December 17, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[Syngyne]

Maybe "lefty-friendly" is a better term.

[Noriko Takaya]

From those crazy people at Fabrique Nationale who brought you the M249 SAW and the FN-FAL assault rifle, comes the equally snazzy USSOCOM's Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR). Seriously, has anyone heard about this thing? According to the webpage I saw this on, there will be 2 versions. A light rifle which will fire 5.56x45mm cartridges and a heavy rifle which will fire 7.62x51mm cartridges. An image of the light version is below. You can read the info on this rifle HERE.

Edited January 25, 2005 by Noriko Takaya

[Graham]

Looks like a bastard child of a SIG 551, HK XM-8 and an M4.

Lots of thread necromancy today. We must all be bored .

Graham

[Opus]

Looks like a bastard child of a SIG 551, HK XM-8 and an M4.

Lots of thread necromancy today. We must all be bored .

Graham

Ahh its nothing that cool. It's just a swanked up AK.

[bsu legato]

Naw, its just a FNC dressed up for the 21st century. Not that there's anything wrong with the FNC.

Edit: for comparison's sake, here's a plain jane FN-FNC.

Edited January 25, 2005 by bsu legato

[VF19]

It looks like a collapsible and folding M60 stock, UMP receiver and Forearm, SAW pistol Grip, Armalite Mags, and teh G36's gas system. Rather ugly, if you ask me. Then again, Fabrique Nationale also brought us the P90, one of the coolest looking guns of all time, and the FN2000. But it is truly an FNC decked up for the future, as BSU said.

Edited January 25, 2005 by VF19

[captain america]

In the vein of "gun talk" but slightly off-topic...

Theoretically, where would one go to find financing to develop new firearms designs?

If it's too sensitive a topic to discuss here, please feel free to send me a PM anyone.

[Opus]

Naw, its just a FNC dressed up for the 21st century. Not that there's anything wrong with the FNC.

Edit: for comparison's sake, here's a plain jane FN-FNC.

The FNC is based on the AK as well. There hasnt really been an original idea in assult rifle design since Stoner croaked.

[Zentrandude]

In the vein of "gun talk" but slightly off-topic...

Theoretically, where would one go to find financing to develop new firearms designs?

If it's too sensitive a topic to discuss here, please feel free to send me a PM anyone.

very little. Guns designs are very old and any machinist can design and make one if he wanted to and go to federal jail if living in the US..... and has the tools to do it.

Considering Guns are hundreds of years old and the design hasn't have a major design change yet (Still shooting a metal spit wad down a tube).

Now if some super evil villian made a airsoft gun so powerful that it can shoot a 223(556) at the same speed as gun powder would now that would be insane. basicly that would be a true caseless gun.

[Gaijin]

Naw, its just a FNC dressed up for the 21st century. Not that there's anything wrong with the FNC.

Edit: for comparison's sake, here's a plain jane FN-FNC.

The FNC is based on the AK as well. There hasnt really been an original idea in assult rifle design since Stoner croaked.

Agreed.