Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[JsARCLIGHT]

With the ban lifted, is it possible to purchase H&K .308 (g3) (do they even make it anymore?)

Well technically even during the ban you could buy them. While the H&K Model 91 (the Civvie version of the old G3 MBR) has not been legal to import since 94 when the ban took effect and is still not legal to import there are tons and tons of clones and old pre-ban originals on the market. You even have the south american CETME rifles (a very close cousin to the G3, so close they look almost identical) floating around.

With the ban over all it means is now you can put the flash hider and bayonet lug back on. Some G3's came with the H&K telestock so you could put that on as well. I know of a few domestic makers who produce clone H&K 91's that are in the process of making a new batch of pre-ban rifles as we speak. A company called Special Weapons and a few other new upstarts who basically do what SW does are the ones to watch. The only real drawback is that the G3 series is as old as the M16 and is "old hat" when it comes to H&K weapons... the current push is on the new UMP series and G36 line. Expect to see much more civvie semi clones of those in the near future than the old G3 line.

[bsu legato]

*wishes he could buy an HK91/G3 *

[Daishi3500]

Damn, check out the revolver this dude got, some may know him from Albinoblacksheep.com 500 SW MAGNUM

He updates him jounal alot, so this post is most accurate as of 10/7.

[Graham]

As for the H&K Universal Combat Pistol, keep in mind that version you keep seeing is just the first prototype. Think of it like the H&K Caseless rifle, it is more proof of concept than it is functional military weapon system right now. It's goal was to build a combat pistol chambered in their new proprietary armor piercing round designed for the new MP7-PDW and to be a "mated" action piece to the MP7. Rumor was that it is slated to be the new sidearm of American and European combat troops under the OICW plan... but the OICW plan changes every year so we shall see. But for now don't be suprised if the outer appearance of the UCP changes dramatically over the course of it's development.

Edit: Here is a pic of the UCP complete with it's special suppressor and LAM prototype unit. Smooth as a baby's ass...

Oh dear.........that UCP pistol is chambered for H&K's pipsqueak 4.6x30mm round, i.e the same round used in their MP7 PDW.

4.6mm = 0.18" = Micro caliber mouse bullets . Actually, mice would probably laugh at it.

While it may do reasonably well at punching through soft body armor, it isn't going to have much in the way of stopping power, unless you get a central nevous system hit. It's a good thing it comes with a 20 round mag, as you'll probably need the whole mag to put a determined opponent down.

Seems very few military or law enforcement special units are adopting this round or FN's similar 5.7mm round.

Gimme a quality pistol chambered for .45ACP or full power 10mm anyday of the week.

Graham

[Chowser]

I haven't heard many people liking FN's round, so I don't know if anyone is going to like HK's new round either. I almost plunked down $$$ for an FN FiveseveN, but decided my money would be better spent on the HK P2000SK since I already have mags and ammo for it. I can't really think of any reason I would need the FiveseveN. Don't know many BGs that wear body armor, besides, we train two to the chest, one to the head anyways, got away from training my guys, two to the chest, wait and see, then one to the head, it's just three rounds at the getgo, they've already given you a reason to shoot, and I think any decent handgun cartridge will put the BG down. We have UMPs in .40 as our entry weapons with the Benelli M1 Super 90s as well. For rifles, we use the HK G36. calibers that have been around awhile and have at least proven themselves.

[pfunk]

I like the Ruger Mini-14's (rancher) does anyone have any experience with the M-30's (that the .308 round right?)

[Opus]

I like the Ruger Mini-14's (rancher) does anyone have any experience with the M-30's (that the .308 round right?)

I assume my M-30 you mean mini-30. They're chambered for the Soviet 7.62x39 mm. I have a 14 and a 30. they're not the most accurate guns in the world but they're OK. The 14 is the better of the two. with my 14 I can pick up any old 55 grain .223 and it'll function just fine but the 30 is really picky and jams up with certain brands of ammo.

Both of my minis are from the early 80's so maybe the newer ones are better but I doubt it.

[VF19]

The concept of teh 5.7 FN round was to penetrate body armor, and then tumble inside the target. Since it was Jacketed Steel, it ended up being used to kill bad guys through two layers of drywall, a 2x4, and stucco.

[bsu legato]

I have a box full of viet era green M14/M16 slings (the ones with the loud metal hardware the troops hated so much)

Heh....I just got a similar one for my post-war Garand, and damn they are loud.

[Opus]

I have a box full of viet era green M14/M16 slings (the ones with the loud metal hardware the troops hated so much)

Heh....I just got a similar one for my post-war Garand, and damn they are loud.

Nothing a little strategically placed electrical tape can't fix.

[bsu legato]

Probably. The dumbest thing about it ( and I assume JsARC's Nam era slings) is that it actually clips onto the buttstock swivel with a steel clip! What genius thought that one up?

[JsARCLIGHT]

The sling that Bsu has is most likely the generation before the green canvas Nam era slings I have and is most likely the exact same design, except substitute leather for green canvas. These Nam slings were originally designed to be used on the M14... and the M14 was originally designed as the son of the M1 Garand... so a lot of their parts and accessories just transfered over with only minor changes.

The two big "oh-my-god-I-can't-believe-they-actually-made-this" issues on these slings are the metal on metal hardpoint connection that Bsu mentioned and the metal retainer clasp with metal endcap. Not only does the metal on metal rear buttstock attachment point sound like loose change in your pocket when it rattles but the metal endcap swings and hits the metal retainer clasp as you move causing yet another metal on metal clinking noise. Not to mention those two pieces can also make contact with the weapon and make even more noise. The "modern" silent sling was in fact a GI jerry-rig from all the way back in WWII as a way to eliminate some of those noisy metal parts. With the "invention" of Duct tape for WWII a lot of it got used on slings... and again in Korea and Vietnam and on and on.

[valkyrietestpilot]

hmm,my dad was in 'nam for 2 tours.1967 w/ the 101st airbourne & 1968 w/ the 82nd.he said he never had 1 issue w/ his M-16 that he was issued there.no jamming,no missfires,nothing.he never said anything about noisey sling hardware either.he knew a few guys that had jams w/ theirs,but he noticed that only happened to those who didn't clean them like they should.i just can't imagine sling hardware making enough noise to be heard over say.......ma-deuce ammo slung on your chest.what about the rest of your web-gear? wouldn't that be louder than sling clips? were the noise complaints mostly from SOG groups or SEAL teams were silence was crutial?

if your in the bad-bush on patrol,your rifle wouldn't be hanging at a relaxed stance on your shoulder,it'd be cocked & locked to keep your ass alive.wrapping the sling around your arm & keeping a little tension on it while on your sweep would keep any metal silent.if your squad got rolled-on by Charlie while on patrol,it wasn't your sling hardware that gave you away,it was most likely his spies that told him were your patrol would be.my dad noticed that when he'd deliberately "get lost" or deviate slightly from the map coordinates they were given,the ambushes decreased by like %50.started to catch Charlie w/ his pants down alot more too.

in vietnam,playing it by the book got you killed.adapting in the field to what the battlefield dictated kept you alive.noisy slings or not

[bsu legato]

Rise!

Is the XM-8 program dead, or at least on life support? Possibly so. I've seen several posts about this out there on the interweb. There was supposedly some army solicitation to manufacturers for a new rifle. Also, a new program called the SCAR (Special Operations Forces Compact Assault Rifle) seems to have come out of nowhere and been awarded to FN.

http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomak...rget=HTWEAP.HTM

November 17, 2004: Last year, the U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) issued a specification for the SOF (Special Operations Forces) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR). At the time, the U.S. Army was also developing a new assault rifle, the XM-8, and it was thought that SOCOM might use a version of the XM-8 for its own needs. SCAR, however, is somewhat different from the XM-8. For one thing, SCAR must be able to quickly change barrels and receivers so that it can fire 5.56mm, 7.62mm (large cartridge, like the M-14 and American medium machine-guns) or the short (AK-47) 7.62mm rounds. Moreover, SCAR has to be even more rugged and reliable (and expensive to build) than the XM-8. As a result, the XM-8 lost out to a custom series of weapons from the Belgium firm, FN Herstal.

SCAR is actually two different rifles, the “light” version (5.56mm) and the “heavy” (7.62mm). Maximum number of weapons to be ordered will be 155,000 (84,000 standard lights, 28,000 closer-quarter combat versions of the light rifle, 12,000 light sniper types, 15,000 standard heavies, 7,000 heavy close-quarters combat conversions of the heavy rifle and 12,000 heavy sniper rifles.)

Meanwhile, the U.S. Army has given all other rifle manufacturers one more chance to submit weapons to compete with the current Heckler & Koch XM-8. This is a sign that official acceptance and mass production is not far away. However, not all of the senior army, or Department of Defense, brass are willing to spend the billions of dollars it will cost to reequip the troops with the XM-8. There should be a decision by next year, however. Meanwhile, SOCOM will have SCAR, even if the army ends up not getting the XM-8.

In other news, congress still won't approve funding for the M41A Pulse Rifle.

[valkyrietestpilot]

i saw this SCAR weapons system demonstrated on gunny's show "mail call".the tech went through all the possible combos & uses for this weapon & i was highly impressed with it's versatility.the materials used in it's components were made to take abuse,mistreatment & dirt & mud like an AK & still work w/o issues for it's service life.i was under the impression all branches of armed forces were adopting this,i'd not heard the army was still pushing to have the xm-8.it would just be smarter to standardize arms w/ a system like the SCAR.it would save alot of $ & still be able to meet the differing needs of the miltiary branches.i would normally be for the ability to get different arms to meet your needs,but the SCAR seems to work w/ it's many configurations.issue these exclusively to the troops,but still allow special forces,seals,recon,etc to select whatever they want for their missions.it'll save $ & keep the bad-ass black ops guys unrestricted to their arsenal.just my $0.02

[pfunk]

thier using the AK round????? weird, I guess the .308 is too much, is the 7.62 short going to replace the 308 round in the m60's? something dont sound right to me,,2x 7.62 rounds, one NATO, one not?

[VF19]

I know of the 7.62x51 mm NATO, and the new round being produced for HK's new SL9SD, the 7.62x39 Subsonic round. AK is something like 7.45mm. That's the concept between the SR47, so our troops can salvage AK mags from dead bodies.

[bsu legato]

That's the concept between the SR47, so our troops can salvage AK mags from dead bodies.

Yeah, if they do go with a caliber convertible weapon system, it will be so that troops in places like Iraq don't have to carry two rifles like these guys.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Caliber conversion has been a mainstay of our military for quite a while actually. In WW2 they issued conversion kits so field troops could convert their Greaseguns into 9mm to use captured German ammo. Heck, in Vietnam the US specially made our own AK ammo without markings so SOG teams could use captured weapons with "reliable" ammo.

As for "captured weapons" most military commands have a standing rule against it... for various obvious reasons. About the only time the use of a captured weapon in combat is "approved" by command is for specops teams. Funny case in point: when out in the field I myself "captured" an AKSU (which involved walking over to a pile of "left behind" weapons, picking it up, testing the action and slinging it over my shoulder and returning to the humvee) and was yelled at by an officer and immediately "relieved" of the weapon. I did not even have any ammo yet for it and it got yanked.

[bsu legato]

Then you must really be envious of these guys. The only PPSh I've ever handled was a dewat.

[bsu legato]

Pic #2

[JsARCLIGHT]

hmm,my dad was in 'nam for 2 tours.1967 w/ the 101st airbourne & 1968 w/ the 82nd.he said he never had 1 issue w/ his M-16 that he was issued there.no jamming,no missfires,nothing.he never said anything about noisey sling hardware either.he knew a few guys that had jams w/ theirs,but he noticed that only happened to those who didn't clean them like they should.i just can't imagine sling hardware making enough noise to be heard over say.......ma-deuce ammo slung on your chest.what about the rest of your web-gear? wouldn't that be louder than sling clips? were the noise complaints mostly from SOG groups or SEAL teams were silence was crutial?

if your in the bad-bush on patrol,your rifle wouldn't be hanging at a relaxed stance on your shoulder,it'd be cocked & locked to keep your ass alive.wrapping the sling around your arm & keeping a little tension on it while on your sweep would keep any metal silent.if your squad got rolled-on by Charlie while on patrol,it wasn't your sling hardware that gave you away,it was most likely his spies that told him were your patrol would be.my dad noticed that when he'd deliberately "get lost" or deviate slightly from the map coordinates they were given,the ambushes decreased by like %50.started to catch Charlie w/ his pants down alot more too.

in vietnam,playing it by the book got you killed.adapting in the field to what the battlefield dictated kept you alive.noisy slings or not

Holy Crap I just now went back and re-read the posts on this page... ValkyrieTestPilot! Dude! MY dad was also 101 in Vietnam during '67 and '69! What unit was your dad in? They might have actually known each other!

My father was Sgt. Anderson, squad leader in Bravo 3/187, primary base camp Phuoc Vinh. He was with them in country from late '67 until early '69 when he was "taken out of commission" on operation Nevada Eagle. I know the Screamers were all over the place in Nam (Airmobility tends to do that) but you never know. He said he knew a lot of guys in other units, mostly NCOs and officers though.

As for the whole "quiet" issue you are right that it is very hard to disguise the sound of a platoon or two of grunts marauding through the bush with all their gear but the whole "quiet" thing comes into play on ambushes and in listening posts. My dad used to tell me all the time how the first thing he'd tell all the new guys was to tape all their gear... tape every single metal on metal contact point. The last thing you needed when in a hidden spot waiting for the cong to pop up was an unnatural metal on metal sound giving you away. Things like belts for the M60 were generally laid out beforehand and they tried their hardest to keep them stationary and quiet while lying in wait. Most of the ops my father went on (much like your's I'm assuming) were search and destroy (sweep and clear) or fire brigade missions that involved racing into an area and shooting the crap out of everything. Stealth is not neccessary when the cong hear the choppers coming but when they don't know you were there on a setup ambush that extra dose of quiet was all it took sometimes.

[VF19]

Since when have the Marines been doling out SR25s? Harris, ACOG, Forward RIS...That looks more like a modded 16A2 now that I think about it. Maybe an Old SPR?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Supposedly Mother Green just ordered and supplied her boys with tons of M16A4's a while back... Herstal was totally boofed with the order and it took them a while to fill it but it should be in full effect now.

[Cdr Fokker]

AK is something like 7.45mm.

The -47s are 7.62x39mm. The -74s are 5.45x39mm.

[VF19]

We're at A4's already JSArclight? When did that happen, and what are the new features?

[Commander McBride]

A4 is flattop with single-full (instead of single-burst). Don't know what else is changed.

[JsARCLIGHT]

We're at A4's already JSArclight? When did that happen, and what are the new features?

The M16A4 modular weapons system is exactly the same (functionally) as the original M16A2 except that it now has a flat top receiver and forward RIS system. Much like McBride already mentioned it comes in two flavors, the 3 shot burst M16A3 and the full auto M16A4. Generally these weapons were supposed to be issued to the unit sharpshooter or his support man but now it seems they have become a mainstay for many units no matter what their job.

For the most part the weapon is just a gussied up M16A2 flat top, that's about it. They sort of cross-bread the M4 into the M16 line and this is what they got.

[pfunk]

AK is something like 7.45mm.

The -47s are 7.62x39mm. The -74s are 5.45x39mm.

the 30-30 is 7.62MM and the .308 winchester is 7.82MM also 5.56MM is a .22 cal

[Opus]

AK is something like 7.45mm.

The -47s are 7.62x39mm. The -74s are 5.45x39mm.

the 30-30 is 7.62MM and the .308 winchester is 7.82MM also 5.56MM is a .22 cal

You're close. The .308 is 7.62x51 and the 5.56 is .223.

[Chowser]

To JsARCLIGHT,

since you're the resident AR15 expert,

what do you think of the

Bushmaster version (XM15 E2S M4A2),

or should I get the Colt version?

I think it's about time my house had a rifle in it.

[JsARCLIGHT]

To JsARCLIGHT,

since you're the resident AR15 expert,

what do you think of the

Bushmaster version (XM15 E2S M4A2),

or should I get the Colt version?

I think it's about time my house had a rifle in it.

Well, the only thing that can really be said is that when it comes to AR15 type rifles brand name matters. The top teir of makers such as Bushy, Colt, Rock River and DPMS can be counted on to be very reliable and well made (provided you maintain them). Colts are usually at the top of the price meter of those four and DPMS and Rock River usually fight for the lowest priced. I myself own one Colt weapon and one Bushmaster, but I built those two myself so they are sort of "special" and cannot be thought of us indicative of "Stock" quality. I have owned a few stock units in my time and I can say that on par Bushmaster is the best with superior fit and finish along with a very methodical "stick to milspec" build. Colt can get crazy with all the modding they have done to their "match target" rifles and finding replacement parts can be a bear at times. DPMS and Rock are solid makes and I know many officers who have those as trunk guns and they swear by them.

I guess when it comes to AR15's the rule of thumb is not neccessarily who to buy but who to avoid. Avoid buying an off-brand or cheap brand weapon. Places like Hesse, Olympic, American Arms and the like are nice and all but many of their parts are made from pot metals and lack chrome finishing or quality workmanship. Also if possible (and if you intend to rely on this weapon in life or death situations such as for work) have a qualified gunsmith or custom builder look it over and install some wolf springs and other "reliability" upgrades to make the guts pound a bit harder.

It should also be noted that Bushmaster purchased Professional Ordinance and they now own the "Carbon 15" brand of AR15 clone. They are doing some nice things with those weapons, check out their site for more details.

[Mechamaniac]

I think it's about time my house had a rifle in it.

[soapbox] I seriously hope you're not considering using an AR for home defense.

Or...if you are, I hope that you don't live in any sort of Townhouse/Row House neighborhood, or a single family neighborhood where the houses are close together.

Even slowed down ALOT, 5.56MM will still penetrate sheet rock like a hot knife through butter, and I'm sure you'd rather not drill one of your neighbors accidentally. [/soapbox]

[JsARCLIGHT]

For as much as I love my AR's I have to agree with Mech, they are combat weapons. 5.56 ammo superpenetrates... that is what they designed it to do. For plinkin' guns they are great but for home defense they are hazzardous. That is why I have my trusty G21 and my SPAS 12.

[bsu legato]

And the Norinco M311?