Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[Noriko Takaya]

This is quite funny but I just did some quick internet poking at my usual firearm board stomping grounds and for all intensive purposes the Omnibus Crime Bill is pretty much a thing of the past. Even several news sites are reporting that congress has in effect "given up" on getting it renewed... so unless some massive filibuster or strange quirk of logic occurs in the next day or two the law will sunset and go into history as just another chapter in the world of attempted arms control.

For those asking about prices from what I can see the only "hit" the gun market is going to take is on all the inflated prices on "pre-ban" weapons. Now rather than being the only way to have the "evil features" they will just become "old guns". Who wants to buy a 15 year old weapon when they can buy a better quality new one made using modern materials and techniques that has all the same "features"?

As for "rushing out and buying" something the only thing on my list is to get the "pre-ban" kit for my SP-10, which special weapons started taking preorders on a month or so back.

Edit: another thing to watch is if places like eBay remove their own self-imposed "assault weapon" bans along with the real law... they should as now the things once known as assault weapons become just normal guns again and technically their parts are just like any other gun part sold on eBay. If eBay keeps  their little political move going then we'll know for sure the colors they fly.

I've already got an eye out for a new short barrel upper for my Bushy with a flash suppressor and bayonet lug as well as a tele-stock to convert it over to an M4 variant. I know some of you out there hate the good ol' black rifle, but I love my little Bushmaster. Not as much as my M1 though...

Come to think of it, it will be time to get some more 30 rounders too. I have ten of them, but you can never have enough.

By the way, here is my dream which I will never own out of the M16 series:

Edited September 10, 2004 by Noriko Takaya

[Chowser]

ok, here's something i was looking at to purchase next week, is this a good thing to spend my money on or not? I can't afford it now, but hey, that's what credit cards are for. I'm still trying to pay for my bathroom. But I told myself I am buying a gun this fall and I am going to get one. I was looking to get the HK P2000SK, but they don't make it in .357 SIG yet, so hey, It's either this or another katana (the katana being more expensive so maybe not).

I have to check, but I think the neighboring pd to my job has these with 3-rd burst.

----except----

I am taking pre-orders for LE Version Bushmaster Rifles. These rifle are currently restricted to Law Enforcement Personnel, but after the AWB expires they will be available to the general public.

$875.00 shipped to Cont. US.

The Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4A2 Type Carbine combines light weight with plenty of .223 caliber firepower. Its chrome lined barrel - designed to mount the M203 Grenade Launcher - offers maximum longevity and accuracy. A telescoping buttstock brings light weight, ease of carrying and quick handling. Mounted on the upper receiver is the latest A2 dual flip-up rear peep sight which is adjustable for both windage and elevation. Forged, lightweight 7075T6 aircraft quality aluminum receivers are designed for simplicity of maintenance and reliability of operation and they incorporate all M16A2 design improvements including cartridge case deflector, last round bolt hold-open and raised ridges for magazine release button protection. Depending upon customer preference, the M4 Carbine is available in either safe/semi-auto/full-auto or safe/semi-auto/three-shot burst configurations. A mil. spec. manganese phosphate outer coating insures complete protection against corrosion or rust on the barrel and all other critical steel parts of the weapon.

The M4A3 Type (shown below) has the “flat-top” style Upper Receiver with an integral Picatinny rail to offer a variety of sight, scope or night vision mounting options. A 1/2 M.o.A. M16A2 rear sight is incorporated into the Removeable Carrying Handle. Knurled thumbnuts allow on and off mounting of the handle with instant repeat zero.

The XM15 E2S M4 14.5" Bbl. Carbine is shipped complete with 30 round magazine, carrying sling and Operator's Safety and Instructional Manual, all in a hard plastic shipping case.

This sale is dependant on the AWB expiring. If the AWB does not expire, your money will be returned.

As soon as payment is made, the gun will be shipped to us and stored until the AWB expires in September. The weapon will be shipped to your FFL the day the AWB expires.

We accept Mastercard, Visa, Money Orders, Cashiers Checks and personnal checks. Personnal checks must clear before the weapon will be shipped.

Credit Card purchases will be charged an additional 3% to cover our fees.

This is the version that I have for sell.

Bushmaster "M4" Type Carbine - A2 & A3 Models

[Zentrandude]

just to break the 666 replies. bad jo jo to have that number with guns you know .

hope i can find a new pencil barrel for my ar when the ban is lifted.

[orguss01]

rotary barrelsssssss

ENJOY GUNHEADS>........

PEEP THE TRIPPLE THREAT>>>>

Edited September 10, 2004 by orguss01

[bsu legato]

By the way, here is my dream which I will never own out of the M16 series:

You cold always get one of those 37mm "flare" launchers. Purely decorative, of course, but it's certainly attract the gawkers when you're out shooting it.

[Noriko Takaya]

Oh yes, I will be getting one of these! Bwahahaha!

[Warmaker]

Bah! I guess I'm the only one here who prefers the M16A2 over the M4

[Opus]

The M4 definately has it's advantages in certain situations. Since I don't see myself engaging in CQC requiring high volumes of fire I think I'll be sticking to my good ol A1, athankverymuch.

[Commander McBride]

Bah! I guess I'm the only one here who prefers the M16A2 over the M4

Hey, if I didn't live in the stupid PRK, I'd be buying an M15A4 Rifle in a few weeks. As it goes now, all I can have is my Airsoft version.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The M4 definately has it's advantages in certain situations. Since I don't see myself engaging in CQC requiring high volumes of fire I think I'll be sticking to my good ol A1, athankverymuch.

A1 all the way to the bank.

It's the same gun just lighter... and some may say built better. I learned to shoot on my dad's SP1 and when I went through basic in 88 my first issue weapon was a beat to hell A2 but it had A1 triangular grips. When finally in the field I got Battalion to issue me an older CAR-15 that had A1 sights for use in the field and I have never gone back... proud owner of two A1 rifles.

As for the M4, it is a nice piece of equipment but the only thing it has going for it is the capability to mount the M203, other than that it is just another shorty CAR rifle. If you want a really remarkable piece of equipment then wait a few more months when Bushmaster unviels their new hybrid carbine. Thing is going to made of zytel, aramid and aluminum and is based on the carbon 15 designs they purchased from pro-ord. They showed a teaser of the hybrid in their last catalog and from all reports I've heard it is feather light and handles like any other AR carbine.

[Commander McBride]

I prefer the XM733 to the M4. The shorter barrel is much more managable in CQB.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The 639 and 733 Colt Commando models are nice for their size but beware the painfully loud report they have. They don't call those guns the "loud mouse" for nothing. Having personally shot several 639's and commando models without their suppressors installed I can honestly say one word: ouch. Without hearing protection you will suffer perminant hearing damage with those guns, especially inside buildings. Even with earplugs you start to get a headache after the first few rounds. And the other big "oh crap" with those shorty weapons is the amazing fireball of a muzzle flash that those short barrels generate. Shoot any gun at night and the flash will suprise you, but those tiny carbine barrels put up a meteoric fireball that looks like the sun just landed on the end of your barrel. That is the main reason why most of those super shorty carbines are chambered in 9mm these days. 9mil does not produce the deafening super sonic crack or massive fireball that the 5.56 cartridge does in a short barrel. Plus the 9mil does not suffer the massive range and power loss from being shot out of such a short barrel setup with a low rifle or the rate of fire erraticness. That tiny gas tube on such a short barrel creates what is known as "random fire" on automatic, the weapon fires at a sporadic rate is is very hard to control. Several after market vendors fixed this problem with what is known as a "pigtail" gas tube. It is a rifle length gas tube wound around the barrel under the carbine grips which allows the gas system to cycle as if it was running a full size rifle barrel and it evens out the cycling of the action on full auto. Most commando uppers intended for automatic weapons usually sport that gas setup now.

Edit: forgot to add this,

For CQB the best weapons on the planet are the H&K MP5 series. Nothing is more reliable or user friendly in tight quarters. I've handled a few of the different styles owned by the SLCPD and they are all the cadillacs of the SMG world. God knows if I had to walk into a tight room that might harbor someone bad I'd want one of those little guys in my mitts.

Edited September 11, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[Commander McBride]

I like the MP5 a lot, never fired a real one, though. (Or any other gun, for that matter... ) Have you fired the MP5/10 or the MP5/40? They seem like promising weapons for CQB.

Just wondering, by the way, are you a PO or what, I've noticed you referring to dealings with the PD a lot and such things. I'm personally in college now, specializing in Admin of Justice, gonna be going into the Acedemy as soon as I'm 20 1/2. I'm just worried that I'm going to have trouble with the marksmanship parts, entering the academy, never having fired a gun in my life.

Edited September 11, 2004 by Commander McBride

[JsARCLIGHT]

I myself am not a law enforcement officer but I have many as friends, from beat cops all the way up to the higher ranking supervisors and lieutenants... and through those friends I somehow landed a part time volunteer job as one of the "instructors" at the local SLCPD ERT team training "camp" a few years back. I have been in the army (4 years, 1st armored division in a recon unit and "retired" as a sergent in 92). I hold an unofficial rank of Sergent with the SLCPD (honorary only, just because in order to be an instructor you must hold a rank of sergent or above in the PD so they made me a "paper sergent"... most of the instructors and trainers there are also not actual cops but ex special forces and ex ERT cops). Most of my knowledge and experience with small arms and engagements came from the army and my seeming addiction to police and ERT training (since getting out of the service I have trained at places like Thunder Ranch and other tactical and speical operations centers that allow public and private training). My specialty is small arms instruction and training with an emphasis on carbines, rifles and SMGs and I am an NRA certified instructior (even though the NRA and I do not see eye to eye on a lot of things).

Basically since getting out of the army I have lived and breathed firearms for the last about 10 years. Knowing the right people and having the right connections gets me into places and lets me try out and see things that most people have to join the police force to see. I also have several friends in the local gun shop circut here in STL and most of them hold in their possession all manner of Class III weapons from M60's to MP5's to Styer AUGs... heck one guy even has a M2 .50 cal and a Barett sniper rifle. Chances are if the gun has been on the market for a few years I have either seen it, shot it myself or saw someone else shoot or demo it.

As for your questions I have seen a few 10mm MP5s but I have not shot one. People have told me they handle like a M10/45 Ingram, quite jumpy but the delayed blow-back roller assist bolt helps take some of the edge off the recoil. As for the .40 S&W MP5 that is the current issue weapon to the SLCPD ERT teams. I have shot them in a few different configurations, my personal favorite being the solid stock with the four position trigger group. The .40 handles just like a 9mil and the extra knockdown power of the smith round gives you better stopping juice. After all, it may be an SMG but we train on single and three shot burst to limit the amount of lead flying around in a breach.

As for your questions about law enforcement service, you might want to ask some of the other members of the board who are actual police officers like Gaijin and Chowser. I can only pass on to you information that other policemen have told me about their academy and school training for their jobs as I have no first hand experience. Almost all of the ERT cops that train in our camp are all ex-MP's or Special Forces troops who left the army and got college degrees in criminology. All of them are also veterain beat cops with a minimum of 3 to 5 years street duty before they could become ERT. To hear them tell it you are best off going army or marines and becomming an MP first, letting uncle sam pay for your training and college. Then when you get out that experience will almost automatically get you a nice police gig in the civilian world.

But don't let the thrills and spills of ERT teams influence you, the real money and excitement in police work is becoming a detective. And most departments want a college criminology degree mandatory for you to advance to detective.

As for marksmanship and training with firearms don't be in a rush to go out and shoot just to get "trigger time". Learning to shoot "right" is the most important thing. I know a lot of people who rushed out, bought a gun and tried to teach themselves how to shoot and in the process learned bad habits that took them years to break... if they did not just give up and shelve the gun out of frustration. While it does take a fair degree of natural skill to be a crack shot, I myself am living proof that practice makes perfect. I am not the world's best shooter but learning from a young age, being exposed to firearms and trained by my father (who was military himself) gave me the right start and fundimentals to move further. Plus as anyone can tell you the army sees to it you can shoot a gun decently, no matter how much you think you suck... and so will any police acacemy. Heck, I could barely keep my rounds on the target as a kid and when I left the army I held a Sharpshooter rating (not the best, but no slouch either).

[Commander McBride]

On the subject of "where the real action is", my intent has been for some time to eventually go into homicide. I think I've watched too much Law & Order in my days, I can't even consider otherwise!

One nice thing about LAPD, at least, is that they don't seem to have an issue weapon, and instead allow officers to choose their own weapons, judging by what I see officers carrying. I see everything from Glocks and M92Fs to a Browining Hi-Power. (Carried by a female officer! Who was, interestingly enough, also carrying one of the gun-style Tasers on her other side) I also saw something interesting last week, a normal uniform officer carrying his Glock in a drop-leg tactical holster, which I didn't know was permitted.

When I'm in, I'm thinking a Sig Pro 2009 would be nice, as I really like the ergonomics of the gun, but I'd really hope they start issuing .45 rounds as I've been hearing, as that would allow me to get that Wilson CQB Tactical I've always wanted....

[Noriko Takaya]

The M4 definately has it's advantages in certain situations. Since I don't see myself engaging in CQC requiring high volumes of fire I think I'll be sticking to my good ol A1, athankverymuch.

I myself have an A2 and like it very much. I like my Bushmaster a lot better than the old Colt A1 I originally had, but that is my preference. However, since it is now obvious that the AWB is going to sunset into history, I would like to get another AR, and that is why I was thinking of the M4. I would like a carbine suited to CQC for where I live. It would make a fine addition to my home defense collection. And since I am an old grunt, my rifle won't jam (hopefully not) like some warrior wannabes' (example: Jessica Lynch) because they didn't know how to properly clean their weapon.

Now, where is my M249 SAW?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Speaking of the M249 SAW...

A while back I saw on the internet, then saw one in person at a gun show, someone took a post-ban Cobray M11 receiver and basically turned it into a immitation SAW! It was weird... it looked like a SAW, it was belt fed like a SAW, but it actually complied with the AWB and would have been legal for the guy who made them to churn them out. The only problem was he built like ten or twelve of them and sent most of them to the BATF for approval. The ones that came back with letters of legality somehow filtered out into private hands and for some reason the guns were never made.

I'm left wondering if someone will pick up from that guy's work and make a new semi-auto collector's piece now that the ban is gone?

[Noriko Takaya]

Speaking of the M249 SAW...

I'm left wondering if someone will pick up from that guy's work and make a new semi-auto collector's piece now that the ban is gone?

That would be friggin' great. I miss my old SAW.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I would think someone would make a semiauto collector's version at some point. After all, the SA collector's M60s got snapped up like candy... even at well over 5 grand a pop. Same with the SA collectors 1919 .30 cal machineguns...

There is a very large market for "imitation" semi-auto machineguns and other such military gear with collectors. The things would be almost unusable in a crime due to their size and semi auto capacity and the price of those collector's pieces would be so high most street urchins could not afford them to use in a crime anyway... and what self respecting criminal would buy a semi auto collector's piece when most street hoods would just buy a real one anway?

[valkyrietestpilot]

good news,good news guys.the assault weapon ban in the U.S. was up for renewal in congress this past monday morning & the news on the radio said that it was allowed to die on the floor without renewal.i have been told this by a friend of mine that's connected to gun dealers almost 6 months ago.how does this benefit us? now i can buy an AK-47 in it's original configuration & not pay $1200 for it.i like mine in 7.62mm w/ a pistol grip & normal stock & also have the lug for the bayonet on the front.not neutered by the ban w/ us parts,thumbhole stock & no bayonet lug & still have to pay alot of $ for 1 i'm not happy with.my friend said we should still give it a few months till you try to buy something,so the dealers see they're not gonna get those high prices & they start to come down.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well, when you are talking the Kalishnakov family of weapons you may not see that price drop happen so readily as it will with other American made firearms like the AR series and others. Remember that while the AWB will go away the Presidential order signed by Bush banning any and all imports of Norinco and like made products will create a severe dent in any hopes of getting new AK series weapons into the country at reasonable prices. Your only options for a fast solution would be if domestic build-up companies like Hesse being churning out weapons made from pre-ban parts kits or if Interarms or one of the other importers begin importing Russian or Romanian AK series weapons. The thing to remember is that this ban has been in place for 10 long years and "undoing" it will take more than one week. I know for a fact that many domestic arms makers took the gamble and began building pre-ban weapons months ago in anticipation of the sunset of this law so that the second it vanishes they can begin selling their pre-ban wares at post-ban prices. I have even seen some companies like Beta offering the 100 round C-Mag at unheard of prices on preorder all pending the ban sunset.

As for "preban" weapons holding their price, that will go away... but it may take some time. Also remember that a good number of weapons have been out of manufacture for a decade or more thanks to the AWB. Some of the companies that made those guns also no longer exsist, so chances are we may never see some of the old pre-ban weapons remade and sold at cheaper prices. It's funny really how this law decimated the firearms industry and forced several small arms makers out of business, leaving only the massive ones to carry the cost of changing their tooling and revamping their weapons. I wonder if some of those small names will suddenly spring back to life?

[Opus]

Well, when you are talking the Kalishnakov family of weapons you may not see that price drop happen so readily as it will with other American made firearms like the AR series and others. Remember that while the AWB will go away the Presidential order signed by Bush banning any and all imports of Norinco and like made products will create a severe dent in any hopes of getting new AK series weapons into the country at reasonable prices. Your only options for a fast solution would be if domestic build-up companies like Hesse being churning out weapons made from pre-ban parts kits or if Interarms or one of the other importers begin importing Russian or Romanian AK series weapons. The thing to remember is that this ban has been in place for 10 long years and "undoing" it will take more than one week. I know for a fact that many domestic arms makers took the gamble and began building pre-ban weapons months ago in anticipation of the sunset of this law so that the second it vanishes they can begin selling their pre-ban wares at post-ban prices. I have even seen some companies like Beta offering the 100 round C-Mag at unheard of prices on preorder all pending the ban sunset.

As for "preban" weapons holding their price, that will go away... but it may take some time. Also remember that a good number of weapons have been out of manufacture for a decade or more thanks to the AWB. Some of the companies that made those guns also no longer exsist, so chances are we may never see some of the old pre-ban weapons remade and sold at cheaper prices. It's funny really how this law decimated the firearms industry and forced several small arms makers out of business, leaving only the massive ones to carry the cost of changing their tooling and revamping their weapons. I wonder if some of those small names will suddenly spring back to life?

Ah, but Kalisnakov is no dummy he has an American factory too.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The American Kalashnikov factory is basically a Saiga factory and has only two lines built to make the Saiga family of shotguns and other post-ban politically correct low capacity hunting and sporting arms. If they were smart they may have already begun building AKM clones under the Saiga name and are preparing them for sale like Colt, Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, Hesse and all the other domestic manufacturers. I have not heard anything to corroborate that though... most of the major push in de-AWBing the country in the first month or so will be the flood of high capacity magazines into the market. Everywhere I go high caps are listed on pre-sale. Everything from 30 round Colt AR mags to new AK waffles to those kick butt clear aramid Eagle arms AR/Mini mags all the way up to the high cap pistol mags from Glock, Beretta and others. It's like one huge industry wide fire sale is starting up.

[Opus]

I've got the felling that this is going to be a get em while you can kind of thing. Especially if Kerry gets elected, he was pissed they let the ban sunset. The anti-gun lobby will use the next voilent crime as an excuse to make newer, more fascist laws. It really pisses me off that I'm being punished for the stupidity of others just to satisfy some uniformed extreme leftists who think thier opinions are the only valid ones.

[Commander McBride]

It's pretty funny how the dems are all for personal freedom, making crazy laws that are always letting criminals off and such,....except for weapons!

And, on the other side, the republicans make all kinds of near-fascist laws, like USA PATRIOT, and yet are all for gun freedom!

[Zentrandude]

i don't see all the fuss with the hi-cap mags for the ar-15/m-16 family. they are extremely common to get in the 10 years the ban in effect and with the ban lifted I just see the quality of the mags get better instead of the buy bunch then get rid of the bad quality ones.

[Chowser]

ok, i haven't really been following the awb and all it's specifics (didn't really need to buy much these past years except for hi-caps and i had no problems getting those), but what exactly can I buy now that was restricted before?

i.e.

1) can i buy fully-automactic weapons? (i.e. the bushmaster i posted earlier)

2) silencers?

3) parts to make guns fully automatic (eg. FSSG mod for Glock, or my partner's got an old Uzi he wants to convert eventually)?

during the ban, the only thing i was allowed to get was the silencer, but i didn't feel like forking over all those fees (and it was hard to conceal a full-size HK with a silencer as a back-up weapon )

The only thing I knew that the Clinton Ban did to me was make me get letters to get hi-cap mags.

[Commander McBride]

No, you can get none of those. You can now have: Folding / adjustible stock, hicap mags, flash hider, pistol grip, and bayonet lugs.

[valkyrietestpilot]

chowser,the ban basically outlawed certain aspects of assault weapons.i'll use my favorite example,the AK-47.you could still get these after the ban was in affect,but they didn't come w/ high-capasity mags,the pistol grip had to be swaped for a thumb-hole stock(which sucked for shooting),use a certain number of us made parts on the gun to make it legal(this was the only legal way to use a pistol grip on an AK,buy a us made 1) and lastly,the gun wasn't allowed to have a bayonet lug to fix a bayonet to the end of the rifle.the bayonet could still go on,but the locking lug was no longer there to lock it in.most of these post ban ak's were required(you) to use %20 us-made parts on the gun to be legal.this usually consisited of pistol grip,stock,fore-grip & us-made trigger assembly.nothing like having a neutered AK

Edited September 12, 2004 by valkyrietestpilot

[Noriko Takaya]

1) can i buy fully-automactic weapons? (i.e. the bushmaster i posted earlier)

2) silencers?

I do know that here in the Peoples' Republic of Maryland you can legally own a automatic weapon and silencer, that is if you apply for the Class III license and are granted one. This much I am sure of, even with the ban in effect.

As for high-cap mags, it is illegal to sell anything over a 30 rounder in Maryland. To get mine, I had to go out of state and bring them back in, which is perfectly legal since they are already your property.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Others already covered the technical side of what the AWB "banned" but the true answer is the AWB ban banned nothing. The intent of the ban was to outlaw weapons that ceratin groups (not naming names, I think the thread is getting a tad too political even though this issue is nothing but politics) considered to look evil. Firearms like hunting rifles and shotguns were not banned even though they have more lethality per shot than any "military" weapon on the market. The AWB in a nutshell was mired in politics with all sides fighting for or against it and when it was finally passed into law ten years ago it was more or less fraught with loopholes and in the end banned nothing... all the weapons it proported to outlaw just reapeared under different names and in different cosmetic configurations. The killing power and capacity for destruction of a post-ban AR15 or AK is exactly the same as it's pre-ban counterparts... the only difference was that it could not have some features on it that some people thought looked scary or that added to the lethality of the weapon. I mean, come on. A bayonet lug? A flash hider? Yeah, those have drastic impact on an AR15's ability to shoot.

I, like a few others on here, fear the comming storm. Sure we have "won" this small toss but if certain forces gather in certain places and in certain numbers I think we can kiss any new ground gained on the firearms front goodbye. BOTH sides of the american governmental system have BOTH stated they favor the limitation of possession of certain weapons by citizens. Eventually all the weapons in my gun safe will be outlawed, to me it is only a matter of time. (If anyone would like some links to how we can possibly solve this problem PM me as the board is no place for politics).

And as for Chowser's questions I have answers:

- the pieces of legislation that govern your ability to own Class III automatic weapons are the 1968 National Firearms Act, the 1986 addendum to that act and the individual state laws in which you live. Those two federal laws established the control of automatic (or as people call them "machine guns") weapons under the authority of the BATF. It is a common misconception that people have that "machine guns" are illegal as they are most certainly not. Under Federal law any citizen of the US who passes certain qualifications and lives in a state that does not restrict the ownership of Class III weapons can legally purchase one. Inquire about it with the BATF, as they are the ones who will process your application. I can help you if you need directions on where to go, what forms to get and how to proceed. Seeing as Chowser is a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) he is actually in a prime position to get a Class III weapon as he has a certain "advantage" to getting a certain qualification filled easily. Once again, PM me and I can talk you though it... no need to fill up the board with the steps again.

- Suppressors (the technical name for a silencer) are Class III items, just like Machine guns, destructive devices (like grenade launchers and cannons), AOW's (a special class of weapon) and Short Barrelled Rifles. They have the same rigamaroo paperwork to jump through and can be had just as easily as any other Class III weapon.

- Your last question is actually the tricky one. According to the 1968 and 1986 NFA acts it is illegal for anyone who is not properly licsenced by the BATF to construct or assemble a Class III weapon. The only person legally capable of doing so is someone who holds a Class II permit to manufacture. Then the other drawback to the manufacture of new Class III weapons is that according to the 1986 addendum any weapon made, imported or converted after 1986 cannot legally be owned by a civilian. Weapons made after the cutoff date of 1986 can only be possessed by law enforcement agencies... not people mind you, the actual agency. Which means the department owns the weapon, not you. The only other exception to this is that Class II/III liscenced dealers/makers can hold the weapons in trust while awaiting their eventual sale to a law enforcement agency. That means a Class II/III dealer can have possession of the post 86 weapon but only under the condition that it is pending a transfer to a department or agency who can legally own it.

And as usual if anyone has any questions or wants to know how to start the paperwork (or see if they can even qualify to start the paperwork) to get a Class III weapon just PM me and I'll help you any way I can. Just remember that if you think a normal gun permit is "too much trouble" then a BATF Form 4 will send you screaming into the woods.

[Opus]

LET THE THUMBHOLE STOCK BURN IN HELL FOREVER>

[valkyrietestpilot]

yeah,really the gun ban only succeeded in making prices on certain collected weapons go up for honest,law abiding collectors like myself.i'm looking at $1200 for a new,pre-ban ak-47 with all the features i want.i can get a used 1 for between $700-900.hopefully,this good news will help drop those prices in the not-to-distant future,so i can get 1 of these at a reasonable price.i have news for the government.criminals more often get their guns on the blackmarket instead of a gun shop.the new law wouldn't curb them getting them 1 bit.the ban was a laughably useless piece of legislation.another case of making it harder for the honest citizen to buy guns to defend themselves & enjoy as collectables.backwards-ass politicians.start punishing criminals,not the honest guy you dumb-dumbs

[Noriko Takaya]

Okay... to get this thread off the inevitable ride it is taking down the political road. This is just a generalized question.

"Do any of you out there sleep with your firearm, and if so, which one do you prefer to have at your side?"

[valkyrietestpilot]

actually,yeah,i sleep with my springfield armories XD-9MM under a pillow on the far side of my bed.it's at a perfect arm length's reach should a situation arrise.remove out of sight when you have honeys over for a sleep over though.a gun under their pillow tends not to sit right with them for some reason

Edited September 12, 2004 by valkyrietestpilot