Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[peter]

Do not take pictures...oops

[bsu legato]

Now was your father's the artillery Luger or is that someone else I'm mixing you up with?

Naw, it was just a plain old P-08. The problem was that it was too short, by Kanuckistan's laws. Even he wishes he had hung onto it, especially after they changed the grandfathering portion of bill C-68 to allow pre-1946 firearms to be passed down.

Peter, those are some great photos but I have to ask why that P90 has a STANAG magazine sticking out of the side. Is this an "airsoft" thing?

Edited June 13, 2004 by bsu legato

[peter]

I think it was just a messy display.

[peter]

more katans

[peter]

more

[JsARCLIGHT]

ARGH! Smaller pictures, please! My dialup does not like huuuuuuge pictures!

... and if I may ask, what is up with the pics? Are these items you like or items you want to buy or?

... and can someone clue me in on everyone's seeming addiction to the FN P-90? The thing is a higly restricted weapon with a lot of limitations to it's use and outside of it just looking like something out of Ghost in the Shell it is not all that powerful or handy as a firearm. Is it just a case of "you can't have it" that makes everyone want it? Or is it that the FN P-90 has become the Desert Eagle of the new era for movies and whatnot and now everyone wants one?

[Commander McBride]

It's an airsoft. As are the preceeding pistols. See the "Hard Kick" on the Desert Eagle. That lets you know that it's Tokyo Marui's newest version of their Gas BlowBack D. Eagle, with improver recoil effects.

The P90 has a STANAG conversion, in order to allow the use of STANAG hi-cap magazines. If I remember correctly, SolScud has one on his P90. It's useful because P90 hicap mags are horrible, because of the horizontal design, and have major loading and feed problems.

By the way, the "Robocop Special" Is a KSC, based on the KSC / KWA M93R. (WHich I own, by the way)

The P38 and P99 behind it are Maruzens. ( I think, I can't quite make out the kana)

And the Constrictor is probably a Marushin, although a manufacturer name seems to be missing altogether.

Edited June 13, 2004 by Commander McBride

[bsu legato]

... and can someone clue me in on everyone's seeming addiction to the FN P-90? The thing is a higly restricted weapon with a lot of limitations to it's use and outside of it just looking like something out of Ghost in the Shell it is not all that powerful or handy as a firearm. Is it just a case of "you can't have it" that makes everyone want it? Or is it that the FN P-90 has become the Desert Eagle of the new era for movies and whatnot and now everyone wants one?

While I can only speak for myself, here's a defense of my own interest in the P90:

Resemblence to the works of Shirow-san aside, the P90 is interesting because it's the closest we're come to a "new" design in firearms in decades. It's that almost completely ground-up approach to the design that appeals to the techno-geek in me. The fact that it has found more acceptance in police service than its intended market shows that FN may have miscalculated its usefullness somewhat, but I don't really count that as a strike against the weapon itself.

Is it limited in its applications? Undoubtedly. But since I don't have to worry about justifying the purchase of one, it's a moot point to me. I'm just waiting for the day when the design evolves into a more useful carbine type weapon. The fact that so many video game makers choose to make it an uber weapon is just icing on the cake. You have to admit that it was fun to nearly cut a merc in half with one in Far Cry.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The limitations I was referring to are entirely based on the gun's propreitary design and control arrangements. FN wants to controll all aspects of this weapon from the parts to the ammo to who gets to buy them and who does not. I understand their excuse for limiting it to law enforcement personel only but their strangle-hold on the ammo situation is uncalled for. I have only seen one of these guns in reality from behind a plexiglass pannel in the hands of someone else... it was on "loan" from the FBI along with a few people to the SLCPD for a few weeks durring a cross training seminar. In reality from what I saw the guns are not very user friendly. They appeared hard to load (even the well trained FBI demonstrator had a hard time loading the magazine in "combat conditions"), loud as all get out (even when suppressed the gun is loud) and they are almost impractical for standard police operations. The FBI guys even went so far as to recover each and every spent casing from the gun because they were told they "had to". A lot of good that would do them anyway as they can't reload the cases anyhow.

For as "far out" and "futuristic" as the P-90 design is it's handling and implimentation by FN are terrible. They have been getting better about this lately as they have seen the error of their ways with the propreitary ammo and parts thing but for all due reasoning the thing is the Lamborghini of the weapon world... way overhyped, way overpriced, way "exclusive" and does the exact same things a nice .40S&W MP5 or .45ACP UMP can do for triple the price and double the hassle. I will not argue that it is a "pretty" gun but when it comes to all-out combat functionality and overall bang-for-the-buck bottom dollar bills, a ERT team can have two or three solid as a rock new MP5s and tons of parts for the same price as just one P-90... and the ammo is off the shelf compatible and cross-platform compatible. The P-90 is just "too new, too soon" but at the same time it keeps appearing everywhere in movies, TV shows, video games etc. etc... to me it is Desert Eagle syndrome all over again.

[bsu legato]

I wasn't aware that FN were being such dicks about the entire thing, since I barely follow law enforcement stuff. If it's really that much of a pain to handle then I truly can't understand its current appeal. Since it was initially designed as a personal defense weapon for rear echelon types, maybe they never intended it to be speed reloaded, hence the 50 round capacity. Beyond that, the only attraction I can see is it's supposed penetration characteristics, althoug I'd be leery about the local ERT guys firing them in my neighborhood.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The penetrating power comes from the new bullet FN designed for the P-90. In all respect the bullet is impressive... it is about the size of a .357 round, but a bit shorter and it is necked like a .357 Sig. The only problem with the ammo is as of right now (unless things have changed without me or my local department's procurement officer knowing about it) the special ammo is only available directly from FN, and they will only sell to governments and pre-autherized LEO agencies (see edit below). In the early days of the gun's development I even heard that they requested all brass be returned to them for processing (hence why the Fed boys were so meticulous about collecting all the spent casings in the training demo). Also the magazine is a propreitary design as well and is only made by FN and, of course, only available from them. Every major component of the gun is stamped LEO and replacement parts are only available straight from FN as they do not allow the parts to be outsourced to middleman dealers and Class III dealers. Heck, I have even heard from a local Class III that FN will not even ship a test sample to a LEO Class III dealer without several special letters from the department that is interested in purchase and the dealer's normal forms first... yet H&K will send out a brand new LEO UMP to him at 15% under price as a demo unit with no paperwork whatsoever outside of his normal LEO sheets and Class III request forms. (and yes, I have test driven a demo UMP they are fantastic guns)

To a trained pro the magazine exchange should not be as hard as it appeared to me but for a true, hardcore engagement weapon you need a drop-free magazine. I'm thinking that is what the retrofit STANAG system is for... to homogolate the gun into a useable package by troops and teams. The local ERT boys train hard to get their mag change times down to the bare minimum and from what I have seen of the P-90's standard magazine you could change a flat on a fiat faster than a mag change on that weapon. Precious seconds mean everything in the field and the more time spent swapping mags out the more time you are vulnerable. Admittedly if you had a team moving in conjunction with each other and spacing out their firing cycles it should not be too much of a problem but... still.

Like I said the P-90 is a beautiful weapon, like a Ferrari, and it performs well enough for the job at hand... just much like a Ferrari you are getting not much more performance and power from that package than you already have in a much cheaper and easier to use weapon. Perhaps the next generation of that line will iron out the bugs and create something truly deadly and fieldable.

Edit: I will correct myself somewhat that after some searching online I found two places that apparently will sell the controlled FN 5.7x28mm ammo outside of FN. I know one of the places and they are a known dealer in Class III weapons which leads me to believe the ammo they are selling they bought through their dealer program from FN and since they have no buyers for the guns they stock they are just selling off their ammo (they are even selling it at a very marked-down price) and the other seller looks a little "shady" if you catch my drift... other than that they seem to be reselling the normal FN marked factory ammo like Impact is. Now if there where only more guns other than the Five Seven and the P-90 that used this stuff it would be more common.

Edited June 14, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[bsu legato]

Ok, after taking the usual shot at the M16/M4 in the "Army BDU" thread, I posted a picture of Canada's new C7A2 rifle. While I've never had to hump one over a mountain, I've never found the standard configuration AR-15 to be "too big" for my 6'2" frame. However, enough soldiers have complained over the years and we have the M4 and C8 as an answer to that. But is this really the best answer? When our troops go to a place like Afghanistan, suddenly they see a need for longer reaching cartridge. A longer reach that the M4/C8 can't seem to provide. So how about this:

The C7A2 gives you the standard (20 inch?) barrel of the M16/C7 but with the telescoping stock of the carbine. Has this never been tried before? It only makes sense to me, considering how the European armories have been using this approach for decades.

Ideally, I think its high time the AR-15 design was retired, along with its poodle gun cartridge. But until that day....

[JsARCLIGHT]

Still a bit too long. You really only save about 3" with the AR telescoping stock... it's the reduciton in the barrel length in conjunction with the telestock that give the M4 it's petite and handy size. Heck, the only thing you loose with that shorter barrel is your hearing as the milspec AR is no prize pie when it comes to accuracy anyway.

I'd take a 639 or a GAU-5 A/A any day... provided your quartermaster can find you one in the shed and you have clearance to tote it.

[Druna Skass]

I've always wondered how the Lee Enfield rifle compared to the Gehwer 98. I've always heard the Gehwer 98 to be the best bolt action rifle, but I've also heard the Lee Enfield to be an excellent rifle as well.

[bsu legato]

The basic Mauser 98 action is considered one of the best and strongest actions ever, even today more than 100 years after its introduction. It wa so successful that it became one of the most licence-built rifles ever produced, probably up until the Ak-47. The key to its strength lies in the third locking lug at the rear of the bolt, which was pretty revolutionary at the time. The Lee Enfield action gets its praise mainly from the short bolt throw, supposedly the shortest in a military rifle ever. The story goes that a trained soldier could fire up to 30 aimed shots per minute, which is pretty substantial when you multiply it by 10 or 12 soldiers. As far as the ammunition, their performance is pretty similar. The 7.92x57 JS was the inspiration for the American 30-06 cartridge and can be loaded to nearly the same velocities (although you won't find factory ammo like that on this continent). The British .303 was actually a black powder cartridge that survived in service relatively unchanged through the Korean war. By WW1 it was somewhat outdated in design, but it was still effective.

Which one is better? I'd say they were pretty evenly matched. The Lee Enfield gave you 10 shots, so it may have a slight edge in sustained fire. But I should note that both rifles are limited (or should I say hindered) by their awful sights. Leaf sights suck unless you have perfect 20-20 vision, and even then they're a pain. Give me the peep sights on my M1 Garand any day.

[F-ZeroOne]

The Lee Enfield action gets its praise mainly from the short bolt throw, supposedly the shortest in a military rifle ever. The story goes that a trained soldier could fire up to 30 aimed shots per minute, which is pretty substantial when you multiply it by 10 or 12 soldiers.

Not just a story - the Germans thought the British Army had far more machine guns than they actually did because of the rapid rifle fire. Unfortunately, this was largely a result of pre-war training and skill like that did not long survive the terrible attrition of World War I...

[Syngyne]

JsARCLIGHT, what's your opinion on the FN F2000?

If anything, it looks darn cool.

[Gaijin]

Give me the peep sights on my M1 Garand any day.

Amen.

[JsARCLIGHT]

JsARCLIGHT, what's your opinion on the FN F2000?

If anything, it looks darn cool.

My impressions of the F2000 are that it is another "me too" next gen weapon based on old gen tech. What does it offer that the current slew of "next gen" fantastic plastics don't? Nothing. The only "plus" it has in it's collumn that it's compeditors don't have is the bullpup design, and at times that can be a negative (just ask Einfeld about the L85). Most of it's "futuristic features" it touts were rolled out on the Steyr AUG back in the late '80s... except that the AUG bests it by having a one button snap quick change barrel assembly and clear magazine. If given the choice between the set of Bullpup rotating bolt 5.56 weapons that are out there (the Einfeld SA80 (L85), the Steyr Army Universal Gun (AUG) and the FN F2000 and a few other lesser russian and european models that have yet to be worth much other than a blurry pic) I would still take the oldest of the lot, the AUG above the others.

The thing to keep in mind about the modern world of weapons is that there are the same number of players in the game today as there was back in the '60s when the whole "lighter, smaller, faster rate of fire" doctrine first came about. I can name off hand at least three weapons designed and built by other companies at the time the M16 and AK74 ruled the roost and almost all of them have gone by the wayside in the favor of those two megagiants of the arms world. The same thing is happening today... one or two companies will field a small handful of truly remarkable small arms and everyone will buy those. The others will all fade into history just like the competitors of the M16/AK74: the AR18/180, the M63 Stoner system, the Valmet series, the CAL paratrooper and it's 5.56 FAL brothers and the AR70/90. All those guns had nothing really wrong with them other than the fact that the major warring peoples and police agencies of the world never bought them.

[Syngyne]

So, is the forward eject nothing really to be excited about?

[bsu legato]

I think that the best last chance for a truly revolutionary weapon died with the G-11. It must have been heartbreaking for the engineers, who had spent a couple of decades working on the weapon, when it got shitcanned just as it was finally approved for use by the German army.

[valkyrietestpilot]

my dream gun to own would have to be a sturmgwehr(assault rifle) 44.it was nazi germany's first steps into the assault rifle category.1st assault rifle ever.are these fairly easy to find? someone told me the russians wearhoused alot of surplus nazi arms after the war.are russian sources more common for this particular piece

[valkyrietestpilot]

pic of the beauty

[JsARCLIGHT]

The Sturmgewehr 44 is a highly prized collector piece in the US. There are a few of them still around in the country here and there but they command very, very steep prices. Even steeper than Thompsons or MP40's. Heck, you could buy a GE Minigun for about the price one of these in working condition costs on the collector market. But never fear, there is always one for sale sometime, somewhere on the legal market... they just cost more than a ferrari. Also take into account that they are pre-68 NFA firearms, meaning they require quite a bit of paperwork just to own... but they are still legal to own in most states.

I myself have never seen a fuctional one in person. I've seen one DEWAT once a while back behind glass in a museum but that is about it. I'm really suprised that some airsoft company has not made one of these before. They seem to be quite popular. I've seen one non-gun/model gun of it before... quite nice, but I think it is now a "Classic" and it too commands quite a price.

[VF19]

An airsoft company has made one, its just not that good. And expensive as hell, the Airsoft M134 is cheaper than the StG44.

[Stormrider]

Yeah, yeah, I'm way behind on my reading...

Fantasy Faves:

M-41 (aliens assault rifle)

Good choice; 95 round magazine and 30mm grenade launcher.

GU-11 gun pod 

Kinda hard to carry, don't ya think?

Stormtrooper Assualt Blaster

I dunno, those things couldn't hit the broad side of a barn...

I remember an old joke about who would win a battle between Imp Stormtroopers and ST:TOS redshirts, given that Stormtroopers can't shoot straight and redshirts die if you look at them funny...

My Favorites:

Real:

Barrett M82A1 (why shoot them from 200 meters when you can do it from 1500?)

H&K G3

Glock 17 (as close to indestructible as I've heard about)

Sci-Fi:

Lightsaber (I don't remember who, but a few posts back someone said 'If you don't say that, you're lying.' I agree!)

M-41 Pulse Rifle

Goa'uld Staff Weapon (High firepower, light weight, and can be used as a blunt instrument if needed--what's not to like?)

[bsu legato]

someone told me the russians wearhoused alot of surplus nazi arms after the war.are russian sources more common for this particular piece

I've heard this rumor before, but I'm fairly positive that it's just wishful thinking. Russia and its communist allies did warehouse a lot of German arms after the war, but most of that stuff has already appeared for sale, as evidenced by the heaps of "Russian Capture" Kar 98k's on the market. I think if there were these mythical warehouses of other German arms, their contents would already be on sale here. Anything's possible, but I think these mythical stocks of Stg-44's and G-43's are just that; myths.

[Bluedeath]

No guns for me.

Bladed Weapons

Viking Sword, early migration period

Scot claidheamh mór (claymore)

War spear, Viking thrusting type

Danish Axe

Katana

Fantasy Weapons

Lightsabers (anyone who doesn't list these is lying...)

M-41A1 Pulse Rifle

M78 Phased Plasma Infantry Gun (also from Colonial Marines, not shown in Aliens movie)

Bolter (Warhammer 40K)

Shuriken Catapult (ditto)

Caster (Outlaw Star)

Spelling's a killer....

You forgot the smart gun from aliens

[Mechamaniac]

Yeah, I love the STG-44, sweet design which bears a striking resemblance to some modern weapons made by a certain German manufacturer.

Coincindence? - I THINK NOT!!

But, 50 years from now, when I am a wizened, toothless old fart, and the military weapons of my era have been de-commissioned, and are dirt cheap, I will be the first dust shooter in line to pick up a an M-60. Then I will take it to the range and proceed to rock and roll, breaking all of my brittle old bones in the process.

Ahh, the M60, another modern weapon that bears a striking resemblance to a WWII era German military breakthrough....

Coincidence? - I THINK NOT!!

Moral of the story? - Damn, but we Krauts know how to make guns!!

[Kin]

Well I was looking for some info on ww2 firearms.. but to my opinion the FG42 should be the first assault carbine. Man this peace looks very cool! This peace has been earlier than the stg44. These carbines are very rare and expensive to produce. It looks quite modern too, for example the scope rail.

20rounds (heavy rifle rounds)

semi/full auto

magazine is located on the left side (which makes the weight unbalanced)

With scope

0

Well... the m60 actually has some components from the FG42 and MG42

I've recently baught a german mauser kar98k rifle... freekin cool!

Edited June 29, 2004 by Kin

[Opus]

Ahh, the M60, another modern weapon that bears a striking resemblance to a WWII era German military breakthrough....

Coincidence? - I THINK NOT!!

Moral of the story? - Damn, but we Krauts know how to make guns!!

When I was in the Army we did some joint training manuvers with the Germans. I was blown away when they whipped out thier MG-3s. It's an MG-42 chambered in .308! Very frickin' cool!

[Warmaker]

The FG-42 was designed for the German Fallschirmjager in WWII. Think of it as a souped up BAR. It had a 20 round capacity for the magazine and fired a full sized 7.92x57mm round. It can be fired semi or full auto, but at auto it's quite hard to control. It's definitely not a Carbine but I tend to fall it under as another squad support weapon like how the BAR did with the US military.

Even in a SAW-like role, the MG34/42 filled those roles much, much better. The FG-42 and BAR in a support role suffered from the same drawback: magazine capacity. Compare that to the belt fed (and some assault magazine/clips) for the MG34 & MG42 and their ROF, the FG-42 and BAR just don't hold a candle.

[bsu legato]

Warmaker's right about the FG-42. I'd just add that, if anything, it's more of a spiritual ancestor to the full bore "battle rifles" of the 60's and 70's. You know....the G3, FAL, and the like.

[JsARCLIGHT]

If we are talking carbines of WW2 then the true birth of the assault carbine was the Ranger's special M1A1 with it's side folding stock and short barrel. Albeit the 30 cal round it fired was about as powerful as throwing rocks but with the stock folded it could easily tuck into a jump kit smaller than a thompson. Some people confuse the Thompson, STEN, M3 and MP40 with assualt carbines but they are submachine guns. A true assault carbine fires semi/full auto, is a shortened or specially adapted version of another full size rifle and is chambered for the same rifle ammo the full size gun fires. Case in point: the M4A1. It is a shortened version of the M16A2 and fires the same caliber ammo... hence it is a carbine. But the Colt 639 is a shortened version of the M16A1 but it is chambered to fire 9mm pistol ammo so technically it is classified as a SMG. Carbines were generally only issued to paratroopers or other special needs troops that needed a smaller/collapsed weapon that was lighter weight and easier to handle in a parajump or to rear echellon troops or "schmucks in trucks" who need a small weapon they can easily store in the vehicle. In Being an ex "schmuck in a truck", my primary weapon in the field was a CAR-15 (precursor to the M4 but with a slightly longer barrel, mine still had A1 sights... I still think it was a rebuilt XM due to it's hodge podge configuration but that is another story for another day) that I kept in a little rack on the passenger side "dash" of the Hummer... if the SHTF and you have to de-ass from the truck in a hurry you just drop the map and the binocs, grab it and go.

Edited June 29, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[Graham]

Eek...........I just wet myself after seeing this: -

.50GI Cartridge.

&

Model 1 .50GI Pistol.

I'm not normally a 1911 fan, but this is enough to make me change my mind. Finally, a practical .50 pistol round.

Graham