Macross II Why not Canon?

[MastaEgg]

Well, at least I tryed to make an educated guess.

Uh Itano was the animation director for the mecha scenes. I think it's HIM. Itano Circus anyone? That was not Kawamori's invention. Itano did that kind of animation on Gundam before Macross even existed.

I never saw any Itano Circus in the orginal MSG. Never saw the compilation movies though (if that's what you're refering to, then I may be wrong). I believe Space Runaway Ideon was the first time he used the technique, but Macross is what made it popular.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I never saw any Itano Circus in the orginal MSG. Never saw the compilation movies though (if that's what you're refering to, then I may be wrong). I believe Space Runaway Ideon was the first time he used the technique, but Macross is what made it popular.

Itano worked in Gundam and Ideon?

Edited January 11, 2010 by Kronnang Dunn

[Gubaba]

Well, at least I tryed to make an educated guess.

Based on what?

[Ginrai]

I never saw any Itano Circus in the orginal MSG. Never saw the compilation movies though (if that's what you're refering to, then I may be wrong). I believe Space Runaway Ideon was the first time he used the technique, but Macross is what made it popular.

Enjoy: http://www.pelleas.net/aniTOP/index.php?p=172

[Vifam7]

Enjoy: http://www.pelleas.net/aniTOP/index.php?p=172

The part about the fireworks on the bicycle... didn't we see such a scene on a recent anime (with clear reference to Macross)?

Edited January 11, 2010 by Vifam7

[Talos]

The part about the fireworks on the bicycle... didn't we see such a scene on a recent anime (with clear reference to Macross)?

Kakizaki!

[Kronnang Dunn]

Enjoy: http://www.pelleas.net/aniTOP/index.php?p=172

So... he worked as one of the animators in Gundam and Ideon. But became the animation director until Macross...

[Ginrai]

Right, like I said he was animating robot fight scenes back in Gundam. If you read the interview with Itano in ADV's release of Megazone 23 Part II, he talks about the bottlerockets thing.

[MastaEgg]

Based on what?

http://www.microfilmmaker.com/tipstrick/Is...4/codirect.html

[Gubaba]

http://www.microfilmmaker.com/tipstrick/Is...4/codirect.html

I don't get the connection...that's a personal anecdote about how to direct when one of the directors is an actor, too.

Anyway, it's a pretty open secret that (as Renato said) Ishiguro was basically there to convince the producers that a strong hand was at the wheel, but that he pretty much stepped aside and let Kawamori, Mikimoto, Itano, and the others do their thing.

Why do you think it would be different for the movie?

[VF5SS]

At Colony Drop they blamed all the problems of the movie on Kawamori because Ishiguro has never made anything badly paced.

Except Orguss which has no Kawamori.

[Gubaba]

At Colony Drop they blamed all the problems of the movie on Kawamori because Ishiguro has never made anything badly paced.

Except Orguss which has no Kawamori.

So...despite the fact that NONE of us knows how the directing duties were split up, we can attribute anything we liked the Ishiguro and anything we didn't like to Kawamori.

*whew* That's a relief. I'd hate to give Kawamori credit for anything besides Valkyrie design.

[MastaEgg]

...but also helped usher in overseas Japanimation fandom as one third of the masterpiece Robotech

I stoped reading the colony drop review after that.

[nexxstrait]

I was looking at the similarities between MII and Frontier. Maybe Kawamori wanted to pay homage to II...

Anyway, here's a list:

NUNS was already present in II (it's written like that, just see the sleeves of the uniforms for confirmation)

Destroids with wheels (present also in M0)

Valkyrie with "angel wings", energy field and melee weapon: Metal Siren

Valkyrie with drones: VF2SS

[Seto Kaiba]

I was looking at the similarities between MII and Frontier. Maybe Kawamori wanted to pay homage to II...

Anyway, here's a list:

Now I'm usually first in line to toot Macross II's horn, but I believe in being realistic too, so I've got a few corrections for your list where things are inaccurate or false parallels are drawn:

NUNS was already present in II (it's written like that, just see the sleeves of the uniforms for confirmation)

While it's true that the acronym "NUNS" does appear in the animation of Macross II, no character ever refers to the military as the New U.N. Spacy, nor does "NUNS" appear anywhere on the uniforms of the U.N. Spacy officers. The patch worn on the right arm simply reads "SPACY", with the notable exception of the khaki-clad gentleman in who commanded Earth's ground defenses to open fire, whose shoulder patch reads "ARMY" according to the artbooks. It's speculated that "NUNS" may actually refer to the U.N. Spacy's propaganda/news bureau, as its appearances are always tied to those of news and propaganda broadcasts. I'll come back and add more to this later, as I have an obligation in about 20 minutes that I need to get ready for.

Destroids with wheels (present also in M0)

It's also true that the new generation of destroid designs in Macross II are the first in Macross to sport wheels in the feet for higher mobility. It is not, however, necessarily the reason for the wheeled feet of the ADR-03 Cheyenne and Cheyenne II. It's possible, yes, especially given some of the structural similarities in the area of the arms, but back when Macross Zero was still in development, wheel-footed mecha were not exactly unheard-of. If memory serves, Blue Gender was on the air around the time development started, and the giant robots there got around almost exclusively on wheeled feet.

Valkyrie with "angel wings", energy field and melee weapon: Metal Siren

Okay, aside from the obvious "beam sword" references one might make to Gundam SEED and the like, you might actually have a point here, at least as far as the wings go. Admittedly, the Metal Siren's wings did a lot more than just flap about increasing the mecha's target profile, they were also where the mecha kept its gunpods and also contained sub-engine systems which were used in Gundroid mode (and possibly as verniers, though they appear to have thrust vectoring flaps in the lineart).

Valkyrie with drones: VF2SS

At the risk of really demolishing this one, I'm just going to point to the abundance of similar weapons in Gundam (bits, funnels, fin funnels, fangs, whathaveyou) and call it a day. Drone units under the control of a giant robot aren't anything new. Yes, the Valkyrie II was the first VF to do it, but all the same... 's not a new thing by any means.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[dizman]

The day is soon approaching that Mac 2 will become cannon, I predict that in december 2012 Kawamori himself will make the announcement. Unfortunately the resulting fan fallout will cause the apocalypse the mayans predicted.

[RDClip]

The day is soon approaching that Mac 2 will become cannon, I predict that in december 2012 Kawamori himself will make the announcement. Unfortunately the resulting fan fallout will cause the apocalypse the mayans predicted.

Good luck to anyone who tries to stitch together that timeline.

[Seto Kaiba]

Good luck to anyone who tries to stitch together that timeline.

The guys writing Macross Ace already tried... though they got the date Macross II is set in wrong.

[nexxstrait]

While it's true that the acronym "NUNS" does appear in the animation of Macross II, no character ever refers to the military as the New U.N. Spacy, nor does "NUNS" appear anywhere on the uniforms of the U.N. Spacy officers.

I've hastily re-watched II, I was sure it was the sleeve but you are right! Nonetheless, the writing appears. If anyone evere wanted to make II an official fictional movie within the current timeline, this would help.

At the risk of really demolishing this one, I'm just going to point to the abundance of similar weapons in Gundam (bits, funnels, fin funnels, fangs, whathaveyou) and call it a day. Drone units under the control of a giant robot aren't anything new. Yes, the Valkyrie II was the first VF to do it, but all the same... 's not a new thing by any means.

I was not trying to label II as the first mecha show to use this designs (see also destroid wheels), but only that the ones used in Frontier were already present in II and that, for Macross, was the first time they were used.

The guys writing Macross Ace already tried... though they got the date Macross II is set in wrong.

Now this is interesting. They tried to stick II to the official continuity?

[Seto Kaiba]

I've hastily re-watched II, I was sure it was the sleeve but you are right! Nonetheless, the writing appears. If anyone evere wanted to make II an official fictional movie within the current timeline, this would help.

So far, I haven't been able to find any canon explanation for what "NUNS" stands for in Macross II, though nothing thus far has addressed the military in the OVA as the "New U.N. Spacy", not even Macross Chronicle. The service patch located on the right arm of the standard uniform is generally obscured at least partially, so most of the time it's illegible, leaving us to go by the lineart which shows only two variants of it... one which reads SPACY, and the other which reads ARMY, the latter having only one example... the khaki-clad guy commanding the destroid defenses. Exactly what branch those other guys in "Zentradi green" and dark green belong to is something of a mystery, as are the baby blue uniforms briefly seen in the peace treaty scene. (My guess would be U.N. Zentradi forces, U.N. Marines, and U.N. Air Force respectively)

I was not trying to label II as the first mecha show to use this designs (see also destroid wheels), but only that the ones used in Frontier were already present in II and that, for Macross, was the first time they were used.

I know... what I'm saying is that these design elements were fairly common in "real robot" mecha anime prior to the development of Macross Zero and Macross Frontier, so it's somewhat unlikely that Macross II inspired either.

Now this is interesting. They tried to stick II to the official continuity?

Yeah, in the very first issue Macross Ace tacked Macross II onto the back end of the timeline as occurring in 2090. How they expected it to fit is anybody's guess.

[Gubaba]

Now this is interesting. They tried to stick II to the official continuity?

Not really. In issue 1 of Macross Ace, they gave a brief (very brief) timeline of all the Macross series, with brief (very brief) synopses of stories. They stick Macross II at the end, but neglect to mention that it's an alternate continuity. Since it's such a small section, designed primarily to get Macross F fans "up to speed" (or at least give them an idea of what else is available on DVD *wink wink*), it's really not worth getting excited over.

Neither is it worth getting upset about the fact that they list Macross II as happening in 2090 (as opposed to Seto's preferred date of 2092), since nearly all promotional material for MII merely says "80 years after 'Do You Remember Love.'"

[nexxstrait]

Ok, now I've actually seen it on the magazine. Mikimoto drew away all my attention

Yeah, in the very first issue Macross Ace tacked Macross II onto the back end of the timeline as occurring in 2090. How they expected it to fit is anybody's guess.

Well... if you forget about all the published material (chronicle and games included) and look only at the animation, there is nothing that really makes II out of continuity. You may even consider the Metal Siren a powered up VF25 (see the design similarities we were talking above). Except maybe the park surrounding the SDF1. But the city plan could have changed between 2059 and the 2090s.

[on a side note: in a newtype magazine (if I'm not mistaken) there is a color pre-production drawing of the SDF1 at the center of the park and it's a TV SDF1, along with Daedalus and Prometheus in place of the DYRL ARMDs. I can scan it if there is anyone interested, but not before a forthnight]

The truth is, II is never going to be retconned to fit in the actual chronology.

Edited January 23, 2010 by nexxstrait

[Seto Kaiba]

Neither is it worth getting upset about the fact that they list Macross II as happening in 2090 (as opposed to Seto's preferred date of 2092), since nearly all promotional material for MII merely says "80 years after 'Do You Remember Love.'"

Calling it my "preferred date" wouldn't exactly do it justice... particularly since when you examine the official chronology published in B-Club 79 and the dialogue of the OVA itself, 2092 is the ONLY date where everything actually works out. It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings any that the booklet Japanese edition of the soundtrack says flat-out that Macross II is set in 2092 either. It's somewhat unsurprising that books like Macross Ace and Macross Chronicle are somewhat inconsistent in dating Macross II, as neither one seems to have bothered paying much attention to stuff outside of the OVA itself.

Exactly how we arrived at 2092 as the year in which the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA is set was, as I said, by a combination of dialogue from the show and one particularly important date in the official series chronology. Both Hibiki and Mash establish that roughly eighty years have passed since the end of Space War 1, which gives us a lower bound for the date of 2090. What firmly establishes the date is the last Zentradi invasion, the one that inspired Hibiki to study journalism, which occurred ten years before the events of the OVA. The chronology the OVA's creators developed as a means of linking Macross II to DYRL firmly places the last Zentradi incursion in 2082. It doesn't take a minor in applied mathematics to deduce that 2082 + 10 = 2092. It's also pretty bloody obvious these numbers weren't chosen arbitrarily... the 10 years is obviously significant (it IS the 10th Anniversary OVA after all), and when you subtract 100 (10^2) from both dates you get 1982 and 1992, which as we all know are the release dates for the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series and the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA respectively.

[Zinjo]

Good luck to anyone who tries to stitch together that timeline.

It's not that hard actually.

Though Mac II would see major changes to the background story though.

Calling it my "preferred date" wouldn't exactly do it justice... particularly since when you examine the official chronology published in B-Club 79 and the dialogue of the OVA itself, 2092 is the ONLY date where everything actually works out. It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings any that the booklet Japanese edition of the soundtrack says flat-out that Macross II is set in 2092 either. It's somewhat unsurprising that books like Macross Ace and Macross Chronicle are somewhat inconsistent in dating Macross II, as neither one seems to have bothered paying much attention to stuff outside of the OVA itself.

To be fair to the writers of the Chronicle, most of the source material you reference Seto is out of print and most likely hard to come by in Japan today.

Unfortunately your Mac II site remains under construction, so they can't even reference that...

Edited February 2, 2010 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

To be fair to the writers of the Chronicle, most of the source material you reference Seto is out of print and most likely hard to come by in Japan today.

Granted, most of it is out of print and some of it is somewhat obscure, but the really important stuff isn't THAT hard to find, and at least some of it should already be in their possession if they're reprinting the mechanical and character design lineart.

Unfortunately your Mac II site remains under construction, so they can't even reference that...

Cool as it would be for them to consult me on the articles, I can't really see them doing that. XD

Edited February 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

Cool as it would be for them to consult me on the articles, I can't really see them doing that. XD

'Tis the information age my friend. If Kawamori smurfs the net for feedback on his shows, it isn't a huge stretch to think that the researchers on Chronicle wouldn't do the same...

[Renato]

Cool as it would be for them to consult me on the articles, I can't really see them doing that. XD

Don't forget that Bandai stole Mr March's coloured lineart right off his website for use in promotional posters for their VF100's toyline last year at the Launch Ceremony.

[Gubaba]

Don't forget that Bandai stole Mr March's coloured lineart right off his website for use in promotional posters for their VF100's toyline last year at the Launch Ceremony.

And I'm the one who gave "The False Diva" its title!

[Seto Kaiba]

'Tis the information age my friend. If Kawamori smurfs the net for feedback on his shows, it isn't a huge stretch to think that the researchers on Chronicle wouldn't do the same...

As awesome as that would've been for them to use my site as a reference, it wouldn't have done them a damn bit of good for most of the material they've published, which is almost entirely common-sense observations based on the footage and more verbose versions of material already published in Entertainment Bible 51. As an overview, their material's generally fine, and while some of their new material has raised eyebrows, I can't fault most of it (mainly because it's in areas where there was no pre-existing information to contradict). Now if they were surfing for a date and they already knew about Mr. March's site, they would've gotten 2092 anyway (due to the intervention of TheLoneWolf and myself). They ought to have the official size comparison on hand anyway if they're reprinting the line art, so why the Zentradi mecha sizes are wrong is anybody's guess... maybe another copy-paste goof.

[bbrain]

Wait, the majority of people here like Protodeviln more than the Marduk? The PD seem more like characters from old Warner Bros cartoons, such as Elmer Fudd getting shot in the face and not being harmed, Marduk would actually fit the description of the Supervision Army or even Protoculture evolving over the years, the only problems with Macross II were the art/animation towards the end, and the main one, leaving much of what happened between SDFM/DYRL and it speculation.

I only stumbled on this thread because i was looking for more details of what happened with the fold system and the pinpoint barriers etc

[Seto Kaiba]

Wait, the majority of people here like Protodeviln more than the Marduk? The PD seem more like characters from old Warner Bros cartoons, such as Elmer Fudd getting shot in the face and not being harmed, Marduk would actually fit the description of the Supervision Army or even Protoculture evolving over the years, the only problems with Macross II were the art/animation towards the end, and the main one, leaving much of what happened between SDFM/DYRL and it speculation.

I only stumbled on this thread because i was looking for more details of what happened with the fold system and the pinpoint barriers etc

's probably because, despite all the silliness, Macross 7 is part of the main Macross continuity and Macross II is (retroactively) an alterniverse. The Protodeviln get an automatic leg-up by being relevant to the ongoing story.

Mind you, going from the various tidbits about the nature of the Mardook and their technology spread around by Macross II's creative staff, the most likely explanation for the Mardook is that they're another group of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization (in much the same way as the ones who briefly colonized Earth in the DYRLverse) and decided to preserve their culture and civilization by any means necessary.

Yes, "Mardook" is actually the correct spelling according to the few official Macross II art books, incl. This is Animation Special #5: Macross II.

[Saruta]

I could buy all rights of Star Wars from Lucas. Star Wars is mine. I can do anything I want with it. I could call my changes and additions as the "offical" story. Even so without using Lucas as a story consultant and Lucas Films as coproducers would people accept my Star Wars as offical? They are offical cause I owe it but I didn't create it.

Wow. The Disney takeover described back in 2007.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Saruta

[Zinjo]

's probably because, despite all the silliness, Macross 7 is part of the main Macross continuity and Macross II is (retroactively) an alterniverse. The Protodeviln get an automatic leg-up by being relevant to the ongoing story.

Mind you, going from the various tidbits about the nature of the Mardook and their technology spread around by Macross II's creative staff, the most likely explanation for the Mardook is that they're another group of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization (in much the same way as the ones who briefly colonized Earth in the DYRLverse) and decided to preserve their culture and civilization by any means necessary.

Yes, "Mardook" is actually the correct spelling according to the few official Macross II art books, incl. This is Animation Special #5: Macross II.

My pet belief is that the Mardook would be an offshoot of "awakened" SA who simply went bat sh*t crazy when faced with the extermination fleets of the Zentradi. Over time their fight for survival became a corrupted religion of cultural purity....

But that's just me ...

[Seto Kaiba]

My pet belief is that the Mardook would be an offshoot of "awakened" SA who simply went bat sh*t crazy when faced with the extermination fleets of the Zentradi. Over time their fight for survival became a corrupted religion of cultural purity....

But that's just me ...

Er... how? The Supervision Army doesn't exist in the parallel world continuity that Macross II: Lovers Again belongs to. Macross: Do You Remember Love? is treated as the more accurate of the two depictions of the first space war in that continuity, and the various bridging titles (the Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song canon video games) repeatedly affirm DYRL's account of the Protoculture's schism war. The Zentradi's rival power for their 500,000 years (and counting!) of war was the Meltrandi Army. From the hints Ken'ichi Yatagai dropped around the time the OVA was being released, the Mardook are another group of male and female Protoculture who, like the ones the ancient computer describes in DYRL, escaped the collapse of their civilization and tried to start over.