Macross II Why not Canon?

[daflip702]

As far as frontier MII homages go, the Metal siren was the first Valkyrie to date (I think) that sports open wings on the back a la VF25

The Metal Siren uses it's wings better though. And it's one of my favorite Valk designs....top 3 atleast.

Aside from the RPG books....we know that This Valk would kick some serious "ASS-1" if it was in the timeline.

Oh yeah for the original thread:

I say....If it says macross and big west approves it then....yes it's part of Macross.

[Lott Sheen]

The sales numbers & budget snip of Macross II is pretty hard to dispute however, as episode 5 see's an immediate drop in quality that lasts through episode 6, something that only happens when OVA's flop.

To be honest I never saw that, I actually saw an overall improvement in the mecha animation in episode 5 and 6. Save one terrible scene featuring the fairy squadron...

I want to make another point. Kawamori never directed SDFM or DYRL, Ishiguro did so I dont see Macross as belonging to Kawamori at all. In my opinion Kawamori is a brilliant mechanical designer but a poor director and has taken the franchise in a really weird direction over the years. I would have much preferred to see the MII continuity continued as it feels more like the original shows than any Kawamori sequels.

[Renato]

Kawamori co-directed DYRL, and storyboarded the entire movie, as well as several episodes of the show (and wrote the last one, IIRC).

Ishiguro is there mostly as "insurance" for the producers, since they would not have funded an entire staff of high-school/college students without any substantial experience under their belts otherwise.

[MastaEgg]

He co-directed DYRL? alongside Ishiguro.

I think he works better when he works alongside another director (like he also did with Macross Plus). Mostly just to keep him in line.

Otherwise you get planning sessions like this

[Gubaba]

He co-directed DYRL? alongside Ishiguro.

So how much of it was Kawamori and how much was Ishiguro?

[MastaEgg]

Well, they both had equal stakes right? I don't think it was like "I'll do these scenes and you do the other ones and then we'll just edit them together!". You'd get a movie that wouldn't have a clear focus. They probably acted as a single body with each checking the other.

[Gubaba]

Well, they both had equal stakes right? I don't think it was like "I'll do these scenes and you do the other ones and then we'll just edit them together!". You'd get a movie that wouldn't have a clear focus. They probably acted as a single body with each checking the other.

Interesting idea...do you have a source, are are you just guessing?

[MastaEgg]

Well, I didn't go to filmschool or anything, but I did take a film class in college!

[Gubaba]

Well, I didn't go to filmschool or anything, but I did take a film class in college!

You beat me. I just took a "Film and Society" class in high school.

Still...neither of us really know how the direction was done, but I would provide these tidbits as evidence that Kawamori had involvement beyond what he's usually credited for:

1) "Eiji Kurokawa" is Kawamori's pseudonym, and he's credited with storyboards for a number of episodes of SDFM as well as the Background Supervisor for the entire series. Under his own name, Kawamori is also credited for several storyboards and writing the script for the final episode.

2) Kawamori is in the DYRL credits under "Story Creation" (and of course, co-direction).

3) Kawamori was who they tapped to do the official episode commentary for SDFM in the book "Macross Graffiti."

4) In the book "Oboeteimasuka," about DYRL, there's a VERY long interview with Kawamori, and no one else.

5) There's an interview in the back of the book "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences" with Hiroshi Ohnogi (who wrote the book), Mikimoto (who did the illustrations), and Kawamori (who did...nothing for the book. Nothing at all).

6) In a lot of interviews I've read, other staff members seem to defer to Kawamori.

It's not conclusive, of course, and Ishiguro's interview is on the AnimEigo discs; additionally, it should be obvious that SDFM and DYRL were team efforts, but I think Kawamori's role was a lot more prominent than just Valkyrie designer and "2nd unit" director of DYRL.

[Uxi]

Actually, according to the Official Macross Website, thats "VA-1SS Metal Siren", not VF-1MS...

That doesn't seem to make sense, either. Most logical progression would be VF-1, VF-2, VF-3 with the Metal Siren being the VF-3....

[sketchley]

That doesn't seem to make sense, either. Most logical progression would be VF-1, VF-2, VF-3 with the Metal Siren being the VF-3....

As Seto pointed out elsewhere, the VF-2SS is the 5th VF since the VF-1. So, who are we to place logic on the naming of things MII.

[VF5SS]

They just wanted the Two motif. Clearly it should have been VF-5SS.

[Seto Kaiba]

That doesn't seem to make sense, either. Most logical progression would be VF-1, VF-2, VF-3 with the Metal Siren being the VF-3....

Your argument here hinges on a number of faulty and/or unwise assumptions... namely, that the Metal Siren was built for the same combat role as previous models, that the Metal Siren was intended as a successor to the Valkyrie II, and that it has a strictly linear design evolution. I'm afraid the latter two were explicitly ruled out by "word of god" from the show's creators, and there is no pressing evidence for the former.

Prior to Big West quietly posting an official designation for the Metal Siren on Macross.co.jp at some point around 2004, the Metal Siren had no official designation. The few official publications in which it appears all refer to it simply as "Metal Siren", and the two-seater demo aircraft from the Moon Festival as "Metal Siren Replica". The first people to take a stab at giving it an official designation in print were the writers at Palladium Books, who either didn't bother proofreading the finished product or couldn't make up their minds, as the books alternately refer to it as the "VF-1MS" and "VF-MS", the former making no sense at all, and the latter just looking goofy. In the late 90s, the "Anti-Kevs" tried to fix a lot of what ailed the RPG, and in the offing gave the Metal Siren a number of new designations, most of which made no sense and one of which was ALREADY in use in that continuity. The Anti-Kevs called it a variety of things, including the VF-3, VF-5, and a number of variations on "VF-4" including VF-X-4 and VF-4SS, neither of which should ever have been used as the VF-4 does exist in the Macross II continuity and figures rather prominently in one of its two canon prequel games under the designations of "VF-X-4 Siren" and "VF-4 Siren", the former being used only in the manual, and the latter used in the game itself.

The official designation Big West came up with actually makes a reasonable deal of sense. The destruction of an entire fleet command battleship at the hands of a single Metal Siren was likely what prompted it to be classified as a Variable Attacker rather than a Variable Fighter. It would, then, be the first model of Variable Attacker in that continuity, which would logically make it the VA-1. The rest just tells us which variant it is and which regime it was designed for.

As Seto pointed out elsewhere, the VF-2SS is the 5th VF since the VF-1. So, who are we to place logic on the naming of things MII.

Ours is not to reason why, ours is simply to sit down, scratch our heads, and wonder what the hell the powers that be were thinking.

As I explained above, the VA-1 designation makes a good deal more sense than any of the other proposals, and it does make a fair deal more sense than oddly non-sequential designations of the main variable fighters... which includes one fighter with no number at all, though some of that could be explained in terms of which fighter is nominally succeeding the current main VF.

They just wanted the Two motif. Clearly it should have been VF-5SS.

Nah, if they wanted to go with the 2 motif which Macross II plays on almost as heavily as Macross 7 and 7 or Macross Frontier and 25, they would've gone with VA-2SS.

[Uxi]

Prior to Big West quietly posting an official designation for the Metal Siren on Macross.co.jp at some point around 2004, the Metal Siren had no official designation. The few official publications in which it appears all refer to it simply as "Metal Siren", and the two-seater demo aircraft from the Moon Festival as "Metal Siren Replica". The first people to take a stab at giving it an official designation in print were the writers at Palladium Books, who either didn't bother proofreading the finished product or couldn't make up their minds, as the books alternately refer to it as the "VF-1MS" and "VF-MS", the former making no sense at all, and the latter just looking goofy. In the late 90s, the "Anti-Kevs" tried to fix a lot of what ailed the RPG, and in the offing gave the Metal Siren a number of new designations, most of which made no sense and one of which was ALREADY in use in that continuity. The Anti-Kevs called it a variety of things, including the VF-3, VF-5, and a number of variations on "VF-4" including VF-X-4 and VF-4SS, neither of which should ever have been used as the VF-4 does exist in the Macross II continuity and figures rather prominently in one of its two canon prequel games under the designations of "VF-X-4 Siren" and "VF-4 Siren", the former being used only in the manual, and the latter used in the game itself.

The official designation Big West came up with actually makes a reasonable deal of sense. The destruction of an entire fleet command battleship at the hands of a single Metal Siren was likely what prompted it to be classified as a Variable Attacker rather than a Variable Fighter. It would, then, be the first model of Variable Attacker in that continuity, which would logically make it the VA-1. The rest just tells us which variant it is and which regime it was designed for.

Ok, you convinced me. It also jives with the idea that the Metal Siren is specifically not a continuation of the Valkyrie-Valkyrie II lineage, but was an entirely new direction outside of the stale complacency that had permeated the UN Spacy before the Mardook invasion.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, you convinced me. It also jives with the idea that the Metal Siren is specifically not a continuation of the Valkyrie-Valkyrie II lineage, but was an entirely new direction outside of the stale complacency that had permeated the UN Spacy before the Mardook invasion.

Well, to be frank the complacency of the U.N. Spacy in Macross II was more tactical than technological. As I pointed out in that other Macross II thread, the perception that there was little-to-no technological advancement over the 80 years between Space War 1 and the Mardook invasion is entirely the result of shoddy or nonexistent translation of official publications, and the enormous amount of misinformation in the Macross II RPG by Palladium Books. Given what we see of the Metal Siren's anti-ship capabilities, I'd be inclined to guess that it was intended to be a heavy fighter aimed at taking out enemy battleships, to reduce the need for the U.N. Spacy's battleships to enter the fray directly... which makes sense after the loss of most of the U.N. Spacy fleet during the 2054 Zentradi invasion.

[oneiros]

Hello, sorry for arriving so late to the thread but i actually think that the reason for Mac II not being part

of the canon is more on the same line of thought of what happen to the Highlander movie franchise

the first movie was good but the next 2 movies weren't and actually were very strange movies that didn't

fit with the direction and history that they wanted to give to the franchise so they simply decided that they weren't part

of the canon and they leave only the first movie, the tv series, the fourth and fifth movie

I think that the same happened to Mac II it simply wasn't going in the same direction that they wanted to

give to the franchise and the easiest way to do that was to remove them from the timeline and declare it

non canon although official

the starwars franchise is different because in that one although you can create anything you want (as long as

you have LucasArts or George Lucas approval) they are never considered canon until they officially say that it is

or until they put it as part of a show where Lucas himself is involved i think that this is actually very useful for them

because if they see something cool that they really like they can use it without having any kind of continuity problems

(and even with this they do have continuity problems and plot holes just remembering the arguments about which mother

princess leia's memories is she talking about when luke asks her about her mother)

anyway those are my 2 cents

cya

[RedWolf]

~snip

Yeah well as said they have different producers.

Macross II is an entirely Big West venture. Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero and Macross Frontier had Studio Nue and Shoji Kawamori coming back. Of course they would go a different direction.

[Uxi]

Well, to be frank the complacency of the U.N. Spacy in Macross II was more tactical than technological. As I pointed out in that other Macross II thread, the perception that there was little-to-no technological advancement over the 80 years between Space War 1 and the Mardook invasion is entirely the result of shoddy or nonexistent translation of official publications, and the enormous amount of misinformation in the Macross II RPG by Palladium Books. Given what we see of the Metal Siren's anti-ship capabilities, I'd be inclined to guess that it was intended to be a heavy fighter aimed at taking out enemy battleships, to reduce the need for the U.N. Spacy's battleships to enter the fray directly... which makes sense after the loss of most of the U.N. Spacy fleet during the 2054 Zentradi invasion.

Right, by complacency I'm referring to stale strategy, not technology. The Metal Siren seems more advanced than an VF-22 the way it blows that cap ship and doesn't appear like it gives up much, either... probably the active stealth, and maybe pinpoint barrier, if anything.

Throughout the OVA, the UN Spacy leadership seems to think they get the enemy all figured out, but they keep getting punked, from the initial attack to the Gloria to the Macross Cannon attack, and the Mardook are always one step ahead.

[Zinjo]

Yeah well as said they have different producers.

Macross II is an entirely Big West venture. Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero and Macross Frontier had Studio Nue and Shoji Kawamori coming back. Of course they would go a different direction.

True, not to mention that the date of Mac II puts the franchise far into the future and is somewhat limiting to the stories Kawamori wished to tell.

[Zinjo]

As Seto pointed out elsewhere, the VF-2SS is the 5th VF since the VF-1. So, who are we to place logic on the naming of things MII.

Well then you have a near next generation VF-1 in DYRL explained as a "Block 6" version of the same fighter. Everyone has their own way of doing things...

[Sketch]

MisaForever

You're no fun

RedWolf

I really hope they do a Macross Attack mode size comparison chart in the Macross Chronicles. I'd like to know if my guestimate is close or if yours is. I might have overestimated the size of the SDF-1 Macross, so the SDF-1 and the Macross Quarter might be a little smaller. In the anime, it looks like the Macross Quarter is closer to your size, but they often thrown scale out for dramatic effect. It's probably somewhere in the middle

This is based off the storm attacker lengths. It's from 4ch but the guy took the lengths, put them side by side, cut up the pics, then 'transformed them', then this layer was made on top.

IIRC Chronicle places the SDF-01 as being slightly taller than Battle 07 when you incude it's shoulder guns. So by the looks of things he was pretty close. As for quarter's size, who knows.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well then you have a near next generation VF-1 in DYRL explained as a "Block 6" version of the same fighter. Everyone has their own way of doing things...

Well, the whole business with the more advanced VF-1 in DYRL being a block revision of the TV series VF-1 implementing controls developed for the VF-4 is a main continuity issue only... I've never been able to find anything to suggest it also holds true for the Macross II continuity. Rather, since the parallel world continuity treats DYRL as the only correct version of Space War 1, the TV series version of the VF-1 probably doesn't exist at all in that timeline, or if it does, likely only as an early-generation prototype or something. (The continuity makes note of small numbers of VF-1As being built specifically for evaluation prior to mass production)

IIRC Chronicle places the SDF-01 as being slightly taller than Battle 07 when you incude it's shoulder guns. So by the looks of things he was pretty close. As for quarter's size, who knows.

On mechanic sheet SDF:M UNS 01A, Macross Chronicle gives the TV series version of the Macross in storm attacker mode, which shows it as being pretty much exactly 1,200m tall to the top of the spikes on the main cannon, whereas the Battle-7 is given explicitly as 1,177m tall, which is so close as to make no odds. The back side of mechanic sheet MF Civ 01A gives the exact height of the Macross Quarter's storm attacker mode as 316m, which agrees nicely with the front side size comparison showing it as almost exactly the same height as the Eiffel Tower (324m).

[BlackRose]

True, not to mention that the date of Mac II puts the franchise far into the future and is somewhat limiting to the stories Kawamori wished to tell.

I think that's always going to be the central reason for keeping Macross II a parallel world story. It's set so far in the future that it limited the avenues open to Kawamori for expanding the universe after he returned to the franchise with Macross Plus. Rather than work around it, it was easier to just make it its own timeline.

[sketchley]

I think that's always going to be the central reason for keeping Macross II a parallel world story. It's set so far in the future that it limited the avenues open to Kawamori for expanding the universe after he returned to the franchise with Macross Plus. Rather than work around it, it was easier to just make it its own timeline.

I fully agree with this. What has become one of the main, unique features of Macross is setting the stories in gigantic emigrant vessels in giant fleets exploring the galaxy. The MII timeline pretty much precludes that unique feature.

Though, I think MII having blown up the Macross fortress might have a lot to do with it... the Macross Fortress being the equivalent to the dog in a live action movie.

[DrStrangelove]

Macross II is awesome in its own alternate timeline way

[Seto Kaiba]

What has become one of the main, unique features of Macross is setting the stories in gigantic emigrant vessels in giant fleets exploring the galaxy. The MII timeline pretty much precludes that unique feature.

Actually, that there were no large-scale emigration fleets is another common misconception about the Macross II continuity. In fact, the official continuity provided in B-Club 79 makes mention of two specific colony missions, and the implication is that there were others as well. As can be expected, the Megaroad-01's departure is mentioned, though for reasons unexplained multiple publications put its actual departure in 2014. The other emigration ship mentioned is a ship called the Million Star, identified as a Macross-class colony ship, which was attacked by a large rogue Zentradi fleet only 1.8 light years from Earth in May of 2054, which is what kicked off the 2054 Zentradi invasion. The Million Star is also noteworthy for being the first instance of a mass-produced Macross-class ship in Macross, as the SDF-2 wasn't completed, and the main continuity didn't get 'em until Macross Frontier retconned them in.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

I have a doubt about VF2SS color stripes:

Blu identifies Nexx's valkyrie

Red is Sylvie's

Green is cannon fodder?

Orange is for the three Sylvie's wingwomen from Fairie Squadron?

Are there other colors around? I don't rememeber any.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have a doubt about VF2SS color stripes:

Are there other colors around? I don't rememeber any.

Well, the VF-2SS Valkyrie II mechanic sheet published in Macross Chronicle identifies four separate color schemes for the fighter, completely ignoring the stuff from the Moon Festival. The four color schemes mentioned are:

Nexx Gilbert colors: Blue stripe

Sylvie Gena colors: Red stripe

Men's Battroid: Green stripe

Women's Battroid: Yellow stripe

In the third episode of Macross II ("Festival"), Faerie Team removes their Super Armed Packs and adopts two new color schemes for their Valkyries. Those schemes are:

Sylvie Gena colors: Red with a white stripe, and a trailing red light stream (reverse of her usual colors)

Faerie Team colors: Yellow with a white stripe (reverse of woman's battroid colors). Each member of the squad has their own trailing light stream color. Amy Lock's is yellow, Nastassia Toht's is blue, and Saori Kujoh's is green.

Nexx Gilbert has his usual colors, though he's accompanied by a quartet of Valkyrie II's that appear to be done up in a light seafoam green (or it might just be the blue tint the footage adopts for the space scenes). It's entirely possible they were meant to be reversed-out versons of the usual men's color scheme, which would make them green with a white stripe. For reasons unknown, Nastassia was operating a VF-2SS with a red stripe (Sylvie's colors) when they switched fighters after the Mardook aborted their attempt to capture the Metal Siren, so Sylvie uses her usual colors during the following episode.

Other than that, there are no other color schemes that I can think of off the top of my head.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

Thanks a lot, this clears all my doubts

[Zinjo]

So how much of it was Kawamori and how much was Ishiguro?

Kawamori directed all the dog fight sequences for the Valks, since the senior directors on both SDFM and DYRL. He knew best how to utilize the combat abilities of the variable fighter it seemed.

[Ginrai]

Uh Itano was the animation director for the mecha scenes. I think it's HIM. Itano Circus anyone? That was not Kawamori's invention. Itano did that kind of animation on Gundam before Macross even existed.

[VF5SS]

Kawamori did a lot of the story boarding for Macross all the way through Frontier. He's still involved with it.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Kawamori directed all the dog fight sequences for the Valks, since the senior directors on both SDFM and DYRL. He knew best how to utilize the combat abilities of the variable fighter it seemed.

Yeah, but Itano is the one who invented the circus... Kawamori was the expert in the transforming sequences, the action sequences were the work of Itano...

[Gubaba]

Kawamori directed all the dog fight sequences for the Valks, since the senior directors on both SDFM and DYRL. He knew best how to utilize the combat abilities of the variable fighter it seemed.

I, uh, wasn't actually asking. It was a rhetorical question. MastaEgg was saying that Kawamori only works well if "someone else is keeping him in line." My point was that MastaEgg has no information about how Ishiguro and Kawamori divided the directing duties for DYRL, so he has no basis to say to Ishiguro was keeping Kawamori in line, and actually had no idea what he was talking about.

[nexxstrait]

I, uh, wasn't actually asking. It was a rhetorical question. MastaEgg was saying that Kawamori only works well if "someone else is keeping him in line." My point was that MastaEgg has no information about how Ishiguro and Kawamori divided the directing duties for DYRL, so he has no basis to say to Ishiguro was keeping Kawamori in line, and actually had no idea what he was talking about.

I think he only meant that the original Macross TV was an "ensemble work", many talents gathered to create something unique that actually became a staple of japan animation. The subsequent twist of Macross (except II) was mainly Kawamori creation.