Macross II Why not Canon?

[lord_breetai]

yup, a single VF smashing the central computer hardly qualifies as "pretty much destroyed"

I dunno been a long time since I saw it... but I do remember Isamu destroying the computer core as you say then the Macross falling out of the sky.

Macross II might had had space colonies beyond just the Solar System... they do imply they are on other planets then just the Earth and Moon... it might just be they wern't relevent to the story so they wern't mentioned.

But anyways Ishtar still reminds me of Musica (forget her OSM name) from SDC: Southren Cross.

[eugimon]

I dunno been a long time since I saw it... but I do remember Isamu destroying the computer core as you say then the Macross falling out of the sky.

Macross II might had had space colonies beyond just the Solar System... they do imply they are on other planets then just the Earth and Moon... it might just be they wern't relevent to the story so they wern't mentioned.

But anyways Ishtar still reminds me of Musica (forget her OSM name) from SDC: Southren Cross.

the macross wasn't that far off the ground, and she settles back into her lake when the power goes out.

[DestroidDefender]

the macross wasn't that far off the ground, and she settles back into her lake when the power goes out.

Then that's another "continuity conflict" we can discount. The SDF-1 survives Mac+ to be 90% destroyed in MacII. No problem. So really there are no big continuity reasons MacII has to be considered non-canon - it's jst that SK doesn't like it and doesn't want to be obliged to follow it.

[Valkyrie addict]

Firstly I'm not talking about Star Wars.

hahaha!

anyway, mmm, just to mention other differences from Macross II, the Macross never had to fire those energy whatever from it's main gun every so often to discharge, after SDFM, the Macross was a pile of junk, and the two ARMD fitted on the arms and the legs of the Macross after it was rebuilted were not part of it's main cannon

altough, one could argue, this improvement could have been made after it got rebuilt, but why would you arm like that a monument that was basicly the Macross on Macross II

and Macross city was built around the Macross, but in Macross II we sorta see itself being sort of apart from the main city (if my memory serves me right)

I don't think the macross was destroyed after macross plus, it just had it's main core disabled, but if you go and say that since the main computer that control the Macross was destroyed and so it's just now scrap, then you would have to say that Isamu destroyed the entire UN Spacy since he had to disabled everything to get Sharon apple's control over everything disabled and that was the only way

[Roy Focker]

Maybe this link will come in handy:

http://members.aol.com/LongZhu/Shoji.htm

[Valkyrie addict]

There's one question my editor insist I ask you: In the U.S., there's a rumor that the fan in the Macross: Ai Oboete Imasu ka? movie who stumbles while trying to get an autograph from Minmei is you. Is this true?

Yes, that's me. [Laughs]

LongZhu: Ooooooooo, now I gotta watch that again and check!

dude, what scene is that one?¿?

[JsARCLIGHT]

During the first attack when Minmay and Kaifun are backstage of the concert hall sitting on the couch just before the transformation, to Minmay's right on the couch with an autograph book who falls on his face when the room shakes is Shoji Kawamori.

[Radd]

Really, I don't find the Marduk in MacII any harder to swallow than the Protodevlin in Mac7.

What is it that makes Mac II unacceptable?

This post seems odd to me. The Protodevlin are the force behind the Supervision Army which sees many references in SDF. Their story is pretty well explained and sits well with what was established in SDF (I just wish they had better designs).

The Marduk have no such explanation. They are not the Supervision Army or the Protoculture, yet control an Army made entirely of Zentradi. They use ships, fighters, and equipment that are obviously derived from the technology the Zentradi used, but it's all more advanced. Add in another conundrum that no one on Earth knew about this Marduk race when they arrived. I suppose it's possible that they're another Protoculture derived race, like humans, who somehow conquered a Zentradi fleet and took over, but no explanation or resolution is given for this mystery.

The whole 'ship of Alus' thing is odd, too, when it was established in SDF that the Zentradi were chasing a Supervision Army gunship. Of course, MacII is more a sequel to DYRL? anyways, in which the origin of the ship is not specifically given, and there is no mention of a Supervision Army. However, the role of the Protoculture remains the same, still making the appearance of the Marduk something what needs quite a bit of explaining that is never given.

Also, there is the odd lack of mentioning of any Earth colonies, despite that part of the story being put into motion in SDF, and again in Flashback 2012. Of course, not mentioning them doesn't mean they're not there.

Then there's the Valkyries. Not the numbering, but the designs themselves already seem a decided step backwards from the VF-4 Lightning III from Flashback. That they still hadn't progressed very far by that time simply seems odd, though it's not an outright contradiction. The VF-11 and VF-5000 are both more like the VF-1 than the VF-4. Of course, isn't MacII 80 years after DYRL?, whereas Macross Plus and 7 are more like 30-40 years after SDF? Again, not really a contradiction just an odd sense of not having advanced in such a long period of time, as well as not showing much variety in the forces.

[lord_breetai]

dude, what scene is that one?¿?

Hikaru and Minmay are at a burger a shop, a fan spots them and comes over to get her autograph, then they run away.

The whole 'ship of Alus' thing is odd, too, when it was established in SDF that the Zentradi were chasing a Supervision Army gunship. Of course, MacII is more a sequel to DYRL? anyways, in which the origin of the ship is not specifically given, and there is no mention of a Supervision Army. However, the role of the Protoculture remains the same, still making the appearance of the Marduk something what needs quite a bit of explaining that is never given.

Actually in DYRL it's implied that the Macross is a Meltradie vessel, that's why Breetai is suprised to find out it isn't at the beggining.

Anyway I think the ship of the Alus thing was more of a self fulfilled prophecy... Ishtar thought Earth was the world of the Alus cause she liked it and wanted to believe that Macross was the ship of the Alus, so she ended up making it become the Ship of the Alus.

remember Ingueous doesn't think that Earth has the Alus until after Ishtar returns contaminated. at it was ultimately Ishtar and not the Macross that won the battle.

Edited March 13, 2007 by lord_breetai

[eugimon]

Then that's another "continuity conflict" we can discount. The SDF-1 survives Mac+ to be 90% destroyed in MacII. No problem. So really there are no big continuity reasons MacII has to be considered non-canon - it's jst that SK doesn't like it and doesn't want to be obliged to follow it.

true. Well, for me, the fact that the creators of macross ignore mac II is reason enough to not consider it part of the main universe. You're more then welcome to think otherwise.

[Zinjo]

hahaha!

anyway, mmm, just to mention other differences from Macross II, the Macross never had to fire those energy whatever from it's main gun every so often to discharge, after SDFM, the Macross was a pile of junk, and the two ARMD fitted on the arms and the legs of the Macross after it was rebuilted were not part of it's main cannon

altough, one could argue, this improvement could have been made after it got rebuilt, but why would you arm like that a monument that was basicly the Macross on Macross II

and Macross city was built around the Macross, but in Macross II we sorta see itself being sort of apart from the main city (if my memory serves me right)

I don't think the macross was destroyed after macross plus, it just had it's main core disabled, but if you go and say that since the main computer that control the Macross was destroyed and so it's just now scrap, then you would have to say that Isamu destroyed the entire UN Spacy since he had to disabled everything to get Sharon apple's control over everything disabled and that was the only way

Umm, no!

At the time of Mac Plus (in the chronology) it is implied that Spacy headquarters was based out of the old SDF-1.

In Macross II, Spacy was based out of a man made island off the coast about 10 kilometers out, connected by bridges, the production did a very poor job of showing the actual landscape of the post SW1 earth.

Essentially it was a network of cities built upon the remnants of old Zentreadi cruisers. The Macross and culture park were about 10 klicks away from any major center in what appeared to be a crater lake area.

As for using the ARMD carriers and the legs as part of the buster cannon, I always felt that was cheesy, but in a pure speculative sense, it was not outside of the realm of possibility for the known universe of the day.

The principle differences between Studio Nue's Macross and Macross II is what happened after the war. The differences that immediately come to mind are:

Mac II:

- Humanity rebuilds with the surviving populations of the system and the micronized Zentreadi.

- They use Zent battlecruisers as the foundations of new cities on post war Earth.

- The SDF-1 becomes a relic of the past and a historical "Culture Park" is built around it eventually (it is not mentioned if it was ever used as a base of operations for the military, however the upgrades seem to imply it).

- Spacy builds a massive fortified island off the coast and establishes the military industrial complex on it as well as Spacy headquarters and the main military base of the Earth. It also serves as a space port for the military fleet.

- Apollo moon base appears to have been converted to a semi-civilian colony as well as a Spacy base.

- No mention of the emigration fleets announced by Global in SDFM.

- The Human and Zentreadi fleets are completely integrated

Mac Plus (Studio Nue):

- Humanity rebuilds it's population through mass cloning of humanity and zentreadi, this is what helps to populate the emigration ships.

- The Earth is rebuilt is less than 30 years complete with sophisticated cities and oribiting defence platforms.

- The SDF-1 appears to be the base of operations for Spacy.

- A base has been established on Europa.

- There are 6 known colonized worlds.

- The human and Zentreadi fleets appear to be segregated racially.

Studio Nue then expounded on their differences with Mac 7 to the good or the bad of the franchise (depending on your point of view... )

[Zinjo]

This post seems odd to me. The Protodevlin are the force behind the Supervision Army which sees many references in SDF. Their story is pretty well explained and sits well with what was established in SDF (I just wish they had better designs).

Actually the PD were developed AFTER SDFM. The SA were a mysterious enemy of the Zentreadi that we are led to believe are an enemy of giants as well (judging by the SDF-1's airlocks).

The Marduk have no such explanation. They are not the Supervision Army or the Protoculture, yet control an Army made entirely of Zentradi. They use ships, fighters, and equipment that are obviously derived from the technology the Zentradi used, but it's all more advanced. Add in another conundrum that no one on Earth knew about this Marduk race when they arrived. I suppose it's possible that they're another Protoculture derived race, like humans, who somehow conquered a Zentradi fleet and took over, but no explanation or resolution is given for this mystery.

That was an odd choice by the producers to shy away from SA references. Ironically the way the Marduk "handle" their Zentreadi warriors is very similar to how the PD tended to handle "their" warriors (mind control) and then we find that they are the ones who initially controlled the SA during the civil war.

I have always subscribed to the notion that the SA were equipped similarly to the Marduk in that the microns ran the show but the giants did the grunt work. Their weaponry was more advanced and powerful than the Zents but their numbers were smaller and that they didn't posses the cloning abilities that their enemy had.

The whole 'ship of Alus' thing is odd, too, when it was established in SDF that the Zentradi were chasing a Supervision Army gunship. Of course, MacII is more a sequel to DYRL? anyways, in which the origin of the ship is not specifically given, and there is no mention of a Supervision Army. However, the role of the Protoculture remains the same, still making the appearance of the Marduk something what needs quite a bit of explaining that is never given.

True, there is even a Meltrandi version of the Macross in the Gold Book that was never filmed (AFAIK).

It may be that the because the producers based Mac II on DYRL more so than SDFM they didn't feel a need to connect the new show with the original series (not a wise move IMO).

Then there's the Valkyries. Not the numbering, but the designs themselves already seem a decided step backwards from the VF-4 Lightning III from Flashback. That they still hadn't progressed very far by that time simply seems odd, though it's not an outright contradiction. The VF-11 and VF-5000 are both more like the VF-1 than the VF-4. Of course, isn't MacII 80 years after DYRL?

Actually it is only 70 years, the year is 2080 in Mac II.

whereas Macross Plus and 7 are more like 30-40 years after SDF? Again, not really a contradiction just an odd sense of not having advanced in such a long period of time, as well as not showing much variety in the forces.

Macross II didn't have mass cloning like in the Studio Nue version of Macross, so there wasn't the same instant population explosion that occured in the Mac Plus timeline, which contributed to a fantastic rebuilding rate on the Earth and in it's system.

In Mac II the defence of the system was performed by integrated fleets of Zentreadi and Human capital ships. Not having the "mass cloning" going on left the system's population to grow at a normal birth rate. Thus the labor to build up forces like in Mac Plus was not available, so you get the sense that the VF-1 was upgraded to it's very limits until the new VF-2 series was developed. By the time of the show the fighters we see could have been 2nd or 3rd generation VF-2 fighter craft, upgraded and improved over the last generation.

They had also developed more role specific craft. The VF-2JA was an atmospheric fighter while the VF-2SS was the space fighter, unlike the multi-role fighters of the Studio Nue universe.

[Radd]

I never stated that the PD were mentioned before 7. I stated that the story given fits what we knew previously. In SDF we know about the Protoculture and the Supervision Army. The Zentradi being the army of the Protoculture.

M7 gives fleshes out the role of the Supervision Army. We know that the SA was made up of mind controlled Zentradi and Protoculture citizens, and that it was the Protodevlin behind the SA forces. In that sense the PD are presented in a way that does not contradict previous information, and in fact expands upon it.

In MII we have the Marduk. They are not referred to as the Protoculture or the SA. In fact, no mention of either is ever made at any point. Their role in the big scheme of things is never explained. They are a "new menace" that just happens to use redone versions of Zentradi ships and weapons, and controls a brainwashed Zentradi army.

[sketchley]

I have always subscribed to the notion that the SA were equipped similarly to the Marduk in that the microns ran the show but the giants did the grunt work.

They had also developed more role specific craft. The VF-2JA was an atmospheric fighter while the VF-2SS was the space fighter, unlike the multi-role fighters of the Studio Nue universe.

You may wish to change that subscription. The compendium (I believe it is in the timeline) says something along the lines that the Zentraedi were created to fight by proxy for the Protoculture.

In more words: the Protoculture were split into many factions that were fighting with themselves (something very similar to what is indicated as happening to humans, as hinted at in Isamu Dyson's history,) and the Protocultures decided that they didn't want to use their own race (either no-one felt motivated to die for their group, giant warriors were deemed better for war, or a combination of both.) Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that any Protoculture were present on any of the many Zentraedi fleets (they cloned giant soldiers to do those jobs, and like any good politician, told the soldiers what to do from a great distance away.)

As for fighters:

VAB-2 stealth bomber/heavy attack specialized.

VA-3M (under)water specialized

VB-3 bomber/heavy attack specialized

VF-3000B bomber specialized

VF-4 Space combat and interceptor specialized.

VF-5000 atmospheric combat specialized.

VB-6 long range bombardment specialized.

VF-9 special forces specialized.

VF-17 space combat specialized.

etc., etc., etc..

Most of the VFs in the Studio Nue cannon are specialized, some are very mission specific with little chance of being used in other roles. Very few are multi-role.

[Zinjo]

You may wish to change that subscription. The compendium (I believe it is in the timeline) says something along the lines that the Zentraedi were created to fight by proxy for the Protoculture.

In more words: the Protoculture were split into many factions that were fighting with themselves (something very similar to what is indicated as happening to humans, as hinted at in Isamu Dyson's history,) and the Protocultures decided that they didn't want to use their own race (either no-one felt motivated to die for their group, giant warriors were deemed better for war, or a combination of both.) Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that any Protoculture were present on any of the many Zentraedi fleets (they cloned giant soldiers to do those jobs, and like any good politician, told the soldiers what to do from a great distance away.)

As for fighters:

VAB-2 stealth bomber/heavy attack specialized.

VA-3M (under)water specialized

VB-3 bomber/heavy attack specialized

VF-3000B bomber specialized

VF-4 Space combat and interceptor specialized.

VF-5000 atmospheric combat specialized.

VB-6 long range bombardment specialized.

VF-9 special forces specialized.

VF-17 space combat specialized.

etc., etc., etc..

Most of the VFs in the Studio Nue cannon are specialized, some are very mission specific with little chance of being used in other roles. Very few are multi-role.

The demise of the PC was the result of them removing the inhibition against attacking microns, in the giants because the SA were composed of both PC and Zentreadi under PD mind control.

With that inhibitor removed the giants eventually turned on their masters and the result was the near extinction of the PC.

As for the fighters I should have been clearer in that they had specialized atmospheric and space fighter craft. Thus the fighters were optimized for their specific theater of combat.

There weren't nearly as many versions as in the 35 years of the Studio Nue universe approximately 11 fighters of the VF series alone (not including the VF-0) mentioned in either production, games or in the chronology, that's one every 3 years.

This doesn't include any of the VA, VB and FZ series out and about in the universe.

[big F]

Thanks Mr March. As always you are a fountain of knowledge.

[Mr March]

Thanks Mr March. As always you are a fountain of knowledge.

We aim to please

[Noyhauser]

The demise of the PC was the result of them removing the inhibition against attacking microns, in the giants because the SA were composed of both PC and Zentreadi under PD mind control.

With that inhibitor removed the giants eventually turned on their masters and the result was the near extinction of the PC.

As for the fighters I should have been clearer in that they had specialized atmospheric and space fighter craft. Thus the fighters were optimized for their specific theater of combat.

There weren't nearly as many versions as in the 35 years of the Studio Nue universe approximately 11 fighters of the VF series alone (not including the VF-0) mentioned in either production, games or in the chronology, that's one every 3 years.

This doesn't include any of the VA, VB and FZ series out and about in the universe.

Is this some more Zinjo subscriptions?

Its never specifically stated that the Zentredi annihilate the PC. According to the compendium, by the time the order was removed, already 85% of the Protoculture were killed, so it hardly goes without saying that they were well on their way to ruin. From there on it seems as if they get caught in the crossfire, rather than the Zentredi actively going out and killing them.

Also, I think Macross II shows a completely unrealistic portrail of fighter development compared to the canon history. The crash landing of ASS-1 and the factory satellite undoubtedly has given humanity a massive technological leap ahead. In SDF/DYRL/FB2012 you see that this has already started with the development of a new super massive colony vessel, a new fighter, and new space faring vessel designs, all of which emerged two years after the near destruction of earth. You would expect them to keep on with this development trajectory. Macross II doesn't, but the canon history does.

There is a VERY good real life example of this in US aerospace development from 1940 to 1980, particularly from 1950 to 1965. Technological/Industrial revolution in the post war era saw huge numbers of designs being produced, built, and retired in short time frames. Between 1953 and 1960 there were eight different mainline fighter designs in the United States that were introduced into service. Compare the F-86 Sabre to the F-4 Phantom and you get a pretty good idea of how fast technology was moving. Now compare this to the Macross Canon era. You have a civilization that has now been exposed to unimaginable technological possibility (and the ability to discover so much more) and a manufacturing capacity of unrivaled capability in the form of the Factory Satellite. 11 fighter designs in 30 years seems pretty reasonable, particularly when many of the them are designed to be cheaper substitutes for the high performance mainline fighters.

In the MacII storyline, they seem to have forgotten this, and there is very little technological development at all. In the Mac-II, the Vf-2 is the follow on to the strike valkyrie, being introduced, (if I remember correctly) in the 2060 range. So in the space of 70 years the best humans can come up with is three mainline fighter designs? That’s pretty unrealistic if you ask me.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Noyhauser

[Duymon]

Regardless of whether or not Macross II is canon or not, it's still part of the Macross Franchise and is listed on the official Macross homepage (which opened a few days ago)

Check it out at:

http://www.macross.co.jp

Edited March 13, 2007 by Duymon

[eugimon]

Regardless of whether or not Macross II is canon or not, it's still part of the Macross Franchise and is listed on the official Macross homepage (which opened a few days ago)

Check it out at:

http://www.macross.co.jp

yes, no one is debating that. We all recognize it's an official macross production.

[Zinjo]

Is this some more Zinjo subscriptions?

Its never specifically stated that the Zentredi annihilate the PC. According to the compendium, by the time the order was removed, already 85% of the Protoculture were killed, so it hardly goes without saying that they were well on their way to ruin. From there on it seems as if they get caught in the crossfire, rather than the Zentredi actively going out and killing them.

Actually it was PC2871 when the inhibitors were removed and a year later 85% of life in the Stellar Republic is lost. By PC2875 the PC are unable to reinstitute the inhibitors (why try if they are not in danger?) By PC5000 the Stellar Republic is essentially a broken entity.

Now there are no direct references as to whether the remaining PC were wiped out as collateral casualties of war or actively hunted by either side. Either possibilities are plausible..

The initial 85% can be attributed to casualties of war, but that is where the references end.

Also, I think Macross II shows a completely unrealistic portrail of fighter development compared to the canon history. The crash landing of ASS-1 and the factory satellite undoubtedly has given humanity a massive technological leap ahead. In SDF/DYRL/FB2012 you see that this has already started with the development of a new super massive colony vessel, a new fighter, and new space faring vessel designs, all of which emerged two years after the near destruction of earth. You would expect them to keep on with this development trajectory. Macross II doesn't, but the canon history does.

There is a VERY good real life example of this in US aerospace development from 1940 to 1980, particularly from 1950 to 1965. Technological/Industrial revolution in the post war era saw huge numbers of designs being produced, built, and retired in short time frames. Between 1953 and 1960 there were eight different mainline fighter designs in the United States that were introduced into service. Compare the F-86 Sabre to the F-4 Phantom and you get a pretty good idea of how fast technology was moving. Now compare this to the Macross Canon era. You have a civilization that has now been exposed to unimaginable technological possibility (and the ability to discover so much more) and a manufacturing capacity of unrivaled capability in the form of the Factory Satellite. 11 fighter designs in 30 years seems pretty reasonable, particularly when many of the them are designed to be cheaper substitutes for the high performance mainline fighters.

In the MacII storyline, they seem to have forgotten this, and there is very little technological development at all. In the Mac-II, the Vf-2 is the follow on to the strike valkyrie, being introduced, (if I remember correctly) in the 2060 range. So in the space of 70 years the best humans can come up with is three mainline fighter designs? That’s pretty unrealistic if you ask me.

My point was to compare the differences not defend either vision.

Essentially I equated the sudden mass of new population with the accelerated growth of the Studio Nue universe.

The Mac II universe appears to have the Earth initially concentrate on rebuilding a society rather than accelerating a military build up and sending out emigration fleets.

The factory satellite apparently wasn't retooled for a few decades which might explain one of the reasons why the Zent capital ships tended to outnumber the human ships. It also tends to explain the slower development of new variable fighter designs...

It appears to me that the chief difference between the two, is the initial mass cloning in the Nue universe. A sudden restoration of a large percentage of the population definitely solves quite a few issues in a post apocalyptic world... Something that wasn't even hinted at in SDFM.

[Noyhauser]

Actually it was PC2871 when the inhibitors were removed and a year later 85% of life in the Stellar Republic is lost. By PC2875 the PC are unable to reinstitute the inhibitors (why try if they are not in danger?) By PC5000 the Stellar Republic is essentially a broken entity.

Thats not supported by the Compedium.

PC 2871

The Zentradi faction fight but, due to the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture," are unable to fight effectively against the brainwashed Protoculture people under the control of the Protodeviln.

PC 2872

Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.

It makes no mention of turning off prime directive prior to the 85% statement, it says 9 months after the emergence of the PD, not the end of the year. Its probably likely that after taking some pretty grevious casualties they turned the prime directive off, and then won the war with the Anima Spiritia.

Now there are no direct references as to whether the remaining PC were wiped out as collateral casualties of war or actively hunted by either side. Either possibilities are plausible..

The initial 85% can be attributed to casualties of war, but that is where the references end.

My point was to compare the differences not defend either vision.

No you stated that the PC was killed off by the Zentredi, as I and the compendium makes clear, the Supervision Army/PD was the reason for the Stellar Republic's collapse and ultimately the death of the PC. Which in it self is a continuity error, since if the PC couldn't control them, how do the mardook? If they are the leaders of the zentredi, are they not the PC?

Essentially I equated the sudden mass of new population with the accelerated growth of the Studio Nue universe.

The Mac II universe appears to have the Earth initially concentrate on rebuilding a society rather than accelerating a military build up and sending out emigration fleets.

The factory satellite apparently wasn't retooled for a few decades which might explain one of the reasons why the Zent capital ships tended to outnumber the human ships. It also tends to explain the slower development of new variable fighter designs...

It appears to me that the chief difference between the two, is the initial mass cloning in the Nue universe. A sudden restoration of a large percentage of the population definitely solves quite a few issues in a post apocalyptic world... Something that wasn't even hinted at in SDFM.

Yes, and as I pointed out, it a "lack of population" or "focus on society" didn't stop them from rebuilding a massive colony ship (far larger in scale than the SDF macross) producing all new fighters and new escort vessels for that ship, all in the space of two years. And then for the next 70 years what are the notable achievements of UN Spacy? Relatively little.

You can argue that the depopulation line but even that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. Most of the people who survive the apocalypse you would suspect would be people with highly technical or research backgrounds (since they were posted to the moon base, space stations, Grand Cannon and Macross.) They would have easily provided enough technical know-how to produce new designs. And there were likely hundreds of millions of Zentredi that would populate the earth. Its very clear that many of the Zentredis would want to become civillians after being exposed to culture (if the defections in the series was any indication). And if you think about it, colonization was almost a must, since earth would not be able to support such a huge population increase of just micronized zentredis.

I don't mind saying both are plausable, but really, the canon version is far more well thought out and consistant with SDF macross, and the Mac II doesn't really do well. I think it reflects how its a the poor cousin of the macross universe.

[Ginrai]

I'm not sure why you guys are bothering to explain how Macross II does not line up with the SDF Macross TV series or subsequent Macross works when it was intended to be a sequel to DYRL. Naturally it follows that line of thinking, not the TV show or later Macross works which also followed the TV show.

The question is not does it contradict the TV series or other Macross works, but does it contradict DYRL?

Edited March 13, 2007 by Ginrai

[eugimon]

I'm not sure why you guys are bothering to explain how Macross II does not line up with the SDF Macross TV series or subsequent Macross works when it was intended to be a sequel to DYRL. Naturally in follows that line of thinking, not the TV show or later Macross works which also followed the TV show.

The question is not does it contradict the TV series or other Macross works, but does it contradict DYRL?

well, they placed it 80 years later, so any differences can just be explained away with time.

And there's also far less background information given in DYRL then compared to SDFM.

[Zinjo]

It makes no mention of turning off prime directive prior to the 85% statement, it says 9 months after the emergence of the PD, not the end of the year.

OMFG! You must be treker with all this hair splitting! OK both armies sat on their a$$es for 3 months to wait out the year...

Its probably likely that after taking some pretty grevious casualties they turned the prime directive off, and then won the war with the Anima Spiritia.

"Thats not supported by the Compedium"

.

No you stated that the PC was killed off by the Zentredi, as I and the compendium makes clear, the Supervision Army/PD was the reason for the Stellar Republic's collapse and ultimately the death of the PC.

This I concede as I did not consult the holy writ before making my statement.

Which in it self is a continuity error, since if the PC couldn't control them, how do the mardook? If they are the leaders of the zentredi, are they not the PC?

What? Who are you arguing with now?

In response to your question with question: "How did the PD control them? That may be the answer to the question you pose.

Yes, and as I pointed out, it a "lack of population" or "focus on society" didn't stop them from rebuilding a massive colony ship (far larger in scale than the SDF macross) producing all new fighters and new escort vessels for that ship, all in the space of two years.

"2010

April

Establishment of new U.N. Government [new Unity Government]. Education programs for Zentradi begin. Miclone processing of Zentradi applicants begins.

May

Macross City reconstruction begins. [Macross City reconstruction completed.]

Mass cloning of people as well as animals and plants through the use of Protoculture technology begins.

Start of nature reclaimation project. Earth ecosystem rehabilitation begins"

Within 2 months of the end of SW1 the mass cloning begins and within 2 years they have enough micronized population and clones to launch what over a 100,000 people into space on Megaroad 1? That is a lot of people to spare for one ship!

"2011

September

Drafting of Humankind emigration project begins. Both:

1. super-long-distance colonization by means of specially-designed large colonization ships (for the chief purpose of preserving the species) and

2. close-range colonization implemented by converting old-style transport ships (to counteract Earth's population explosion and shortage of resources)

are undertaken in parallel."

Now if in one year they are projecting population growth to merit the above program after only 1 year of the cloning and micronization, one gets a sense of the scale of re-population going on and how more population focused on the government's goals tend to get more accomplished. Such accomplishments in the Nue universe is very plausible with that many people working on the available projects, be it defence, emigration, infrastructure, etc...

And then for the next 70 years what are the notable achievements of UN Spacy? Relatively little.

70 years equates to approximately 3 generations, no mass cloning, so not much could be accompished if the total population of the system only tripled in 70 years.

You can argue that the depopulation line but even that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Actually it does...

Most of the people who survive the apocalypse you would suspect would be people with highly technical or research backgrounds (since they were posted to the moon base, space stations, Grand Cannon and Macross.) They would have easily provided enough technical know-how to produce new designs. And there were likely hundreds of millions of Zentredi that would populate the earth. Its very clear that many of the Zentredis would want to become civillians after being exposed to culture (if the defections in the series was any indication). And if you think about it, colonization was almost a must, since earth would not be able to support such a huge population increase of just micronized zentredis.

True, but what is the focus of their efforts? Rebuilding destroyed infrastructure so the remaining populations could survive as well as rescue missions to recover those who were not lucky enough to live on a Zentreadi ship or the Macross... That in itself could take an entire generation to accomplish.

To gain more technical experts requires education and training, which takes more time. A Zentreadi with rudimentary knowlege of advanced equipment doesn't equate to an educated engineer or scientist. Strong back they had aplenty, strong minds were in premium demand.

I don't mind saying both are plausable, but really, the canon version is far more well thought out and consistant with SDF macross, and the Mac II doesn't really do well. I think it reflects how its a the poor cousin of the macross universe.

The Nue version is well thought out and consistent for the back stories of the later series, however Mac II is consistent as well, it simply took a different approach to what happens on post war Earth.

Whether one is better than the other is a matter of personal opinion.

[sketchley]

Zinjo, I am really unclear what point you are trying to make about VFs in both Macross II and the Studio Nue canon. I may be misunderstanding, but your posts on the subject conflict each other.

As for the other stuff - excellent posts, Noyhauser! The only thing I'd like to add (and is oft neglected) are the space colonies and L4 spaceship construction yards that survived SWI.

[Noyhauser]

OMFG! You must be treker with all this hair splitting! OK both armies sat on their a$$es for 3 months to wait out the year...

Oh god. You're the one who trotted out the history in the compedium in the first place. Don't blame me if you can't read it correctly.

This I concede as I did not consult the holy writ before making my statement.

Unlike the dozen times you did before?

What? Who are you arguing with now?

In response to your question with question: "How did the PD control them? That may be the answer to the question you pose.

I don't get your point here unless you failed to note that I said the PC aka the Protoculture. I'm just pointing out another continuity error. Its stated clearly in SDF (and I think DYRL) that the Zentredi were created by the Protoculture. If thats the case who are the Mardook? In DYRL the PC are potrayed as benevolent creatures that had an peaceful culture. And then MII comes up with the Mardook as the controllers of the Zentredi, a warlike cruel culture bent on galactic dominations. Hmmmm.

"2010

April

Establishment of new U.N. Government [new Unity Government]. Education programs for Zentradi begin. Miclone processing of Zentradi applicants begins.

May

Macross City reconstruction begins. [Macross City reconstruction completed.]

Mass cloning of people as well as animals and plants through the use of Protoculture technology begins.

Start of nature reclaimation project. Earth ecosystem rehabilitation begins"

Within 2 months of the end of SW1 the mass cloning begins and within 2 years they have enough micronized population and clones to launch what over a 100,000 people into space on Megaroad 1? That is a lot of people to spare for one ship!

"2011

September

Drafting of Humankind emigration project begins. Both:

1. super-long-distance colonization by means of specially-designed large colonization ships (for the chief purpose of preserving the species) and

2. close-range colonization implemented by converting old-style transport ships (to counteract Earth's population explosion and shortage of resources)

are undertaken in parallel."

Now if in one year they are projecting population growth to merit the above program after only 1 year of the cloning and micronization, one gets a sense of the scale of re-population going on and how more population focused on the government's goals tend to get more accomplished. Such accomplishments in the Nue universe is very plausible with that many people working on the available projects, be it defence, emigration, infrastructure, etc...

70 years equates to approximately 3 generations, no mass cloning, so not much could be accompished if the total population of the system only tripled in 70 years.

Actually it does...

True, but what is the focus of their efforts? Rebuilding destroyed infrastructure so the remaining populations could survive as well as rescue missions to recover those who were not lucky enough to live on a Zentreadi ship or the Macross... That in itself could take an entire generation to accomplish.

I can see two posibilities here, both of which invalidates your contentions. The question is, at what point was it stated that cloning occurred in the Macross Universe.

#1 If it was stated in the early 1980s (aka when SDF and DYRL was first shown) that cloning occurred, then your whole theory is wrong, and you'll just have to admit that Macross II is even further divorced from the original universe.

#2 Now if the cloning history was a retcon established to give consistency with Macross 7 and Plus, then your argument that they didn't have enough resources is invalidated, because they clearly were able to design and build the Megaroad, the VF-4s, and the Fleet of human warships and without the need for cloning.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Noyhauser

[Zinjo]

Zinjo, I am really unclear what point you are trying to make about VFs in both Macross II and the Studio Nue canon. I may be misunderstanding, but your posts on the subject conflict each other.

That's what happens when you try to post from work...

Your post on the "specializations" of Kawamori's fighters prompted me to clarify what I meant by specialization of the VF-2 series of Mac II. Essentially being that of atmospheric and space opitimzed fighters, not in the sense of "attack craft" or "interceptor craft". The only specialized fighter shown in the show was the "Metal Siren". The AGA-1JF seemd to be more of a gunship rather than a variable fighter.

[DestroidDefender]

If I understand you guys, using the various secondary sources a case can be made to invalidate MacII. You guys seem to know those sources much better than I, and I admit it's a awhile since I watched either series. And I admit I only watched the first 20 episodes of Mac7 - so basically I learned nothing about the PD or the PC.

Based on what we actually hear in SDF about the PC, the Zentraedi, etc. - not stuff from other sources, just the things we know from the tv series - I don't think the Marduk, the Emulators, Alus, etc. run contrary to the spirit of SDF. Emigration and cloning are not mentioned in MacII but that does not mean it didn't happen. Now I don't see anything that happens in Mac+ that makes the events 80 years later in MacII impossible. Heck the shoot'em up finale in Mac+ could explain why the city was rebuilt and the Macross was moved in MacII.

I think there was room for both storylines in the canon. It was simply a case of indifference mainly on the part of SK. He wanted to make his test pilots story and was cajoled into making it a Macross story.

I'm not going to change the producers minds - MacII is out and forgotten. But I don't think it had to be. Personally, I find it feels more like "my" Macross than Mac7 and some parts of Mac+.

Edited March 14, 2007 by DestroidDefender

[Zinjo]

Unlike the dozen times you did before?

I admited to it once and that was the only time since then all my points about the Nue universe are based on listed items in the chronology. Feel free to try to pick apart those facts I gleened from the Studio Nue chronology.

I don't get your point here unless you failed to note that I said the PC aka the Protoculture. I'm just pointing out another continuity error.

Continuity of what to what? Comparing Mac II's continuity to the Nue continuity naturally results in issues, but that isn't what my discussion is about (keep up!).

In Mac II there is no comprehensive history given about the Marduk. How big a stretch is it for the Marduk to possess mind control technology to enslave the Zentreadi?

Funny, as I recall the Nue universe uses that very same explanation as how the PD conscripted the SA into doing their bidding. Coincidence, maybe; however I really don't care as I am discussing the "DIFFERENCES" between the two, not justifying one over

Its stated clearly in SDF (and I think DYRL) that the Zentredi were created by the Protoculture.

There is no dispute of that except in your own mind.

If thats the case who are the Mardook?

Their exact origins are not explained, whether that was ultimately intended we don't know. Only the producers know what was ultimately planned for the show before it's demise. Only in your imagination do the Marduk have some sort of claim on the creation of the Zentreadi. It is not revealed how they managed to gain an armada of the giant warriors.

In DYRL the PC are potrayed as benevolent creatures that had an peaceful culture.

Except in Mac Zero we find out how "benevolent" they really were, by leaving a device to wipe an entire world of sentient beings if they "didn't conform to the god culture's vision of what they should evolve into". Nice people, makes their ultimate collapse a bit like poetic justice

And then MII comes up with the Mardook as the controllers of the Zentredi, a warlike cruel culture bent on galactic dominations. Hmmmm.

We see an armada that uses Zentreadi as soldiers, at no point are we told that Marduk control the Zentreadi race as a whole. In the story, 10 years earlier, the Earth repelled a Zentreadi attack in the system. So that invalidates your supposition right there.

I can see two posibilities here, both of which invalidates your contentions. The question is, at what point was it stated that cloning occurred in the Macross Universe.

#1 If it was stated in the early 1980s (aka when SDF and DYRL was first shown) that cloning occurred, then your whole theory is wrong, and you'll just have to admit that Macross II is even further divorced from the original universe.

#2 Now if the cloning history was a retcon established to give consistency with Macross 7 and Plus, then your argument that they didn't have enough resources is invalidated, because they clearly were able to design and build the Megaroad, the VF-4s, and the Fleet of human warships and without the need for cloning.

My contentions are taken directly from the compendium, feel free to look them up yourself. The quotes I posted are cut and paste from the site text. The cloning started a month after the victory over Bodolza, feel free to try and dis-prove the quoted chronology entries.

You can try to make constructive comments on the "actual" content of my posts or you can continue on your tirade about how superior your holy grail is within a discussion about the "Differences" between the two shows, thus making yourself look more foolish.

Studio Nue chose to use cloning to accelerate the level of advancement in their universe, while Mac II chose to go with a natural re-population of the Earth which in turn had it's lack of advancements comparatively speaking. Both series of events are consistent within their own universes. Neither can really cross over to the other (as some have attested) as they currently exist, due to the basic compatibility issues presented by what was done with the populations after SW1 in each universe.

[Zinjo]

Based on what we actually hear in SDF about the PC, the Zentraedi, etc. - not stuff from other sources, just the things we know from the tv series - I don't think the Marduk, the Emulators, Alus, etc. run contrary to the spirit of SDF. Emigration and cloning are not mentioned in MacII but that does not mean it didn't happen. Now I don't see anything that happens in Mac+ that makes the events 80 years later in MacII impossible. Heck the shoot'em up finale in Mac+ could explain why the city was rebuilt and the Macross was moved in MacII.

The reality is that Mac II would have to be strongly shoe horned into the Studio Nue universe for that to work.

The biggest problems are the landscape of the Earth (the Nue universe has fully rebuilt cities) , the lack of a very large population and the lack of an active emigration program that is clearly evident in the Nue universe.

At best the show could be a shoe horned in as a story about a colony world that encounters this unusual fleet, but there is no way it could be the Earth as originally stated in the release of the show and there is no way that the SDF ship could be the Macross, so there is that problem as well.

As it exists, the show is not really compatible with the Nue universe unless some basic modifications to the story and even the animation are made.

I agree that the story telling is closer to SDFM in tone and spirit, but not with how the Nue universe has developed.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Why is this even a discussion? As others have pointed out, Future Chronicle (which came with the R2 OVA release of Plus) relegated II to a "Parallel Universe" status. I know, I've seen it!

The only clues as to the origins of the Marduk are briefly mentioned I believe it was when Ishtar was re-captured & speaking with the Marduk Emulator Priestess chick. There's a bit of dialogue about how the Marduk were once like humans who had a conflict with the Zentradi, but instead of adapting them into their own culture, dominated them instead. I may be getting that mixed up with an Ingus scene, but I'm pretty sure that's what was said.

The major problems with II aren't just how it doesn't gel with the after Nue cannon, but also how it fails to mesh with TV, DYRL, FB 2012, or any combination of the 3. The U.N. Spacy's rampant use of Zentradi ships as building materials flies in the face of the reconstruction we'd seen going on. The "Boobytrap" didn't exist in DYRL, which II supposedly takes after, and as such the mis-firing of the cannon when the Marduk enter orbit really doesn't make sense. Hell, even if the Boobytrap had occurred, it was fixed early on in Macros TV, and should the problem have arisen again, sure as hell would have been fixed within 80 years. It's just not a good idea to have a beam weapon randmly discharing in a theme park!

There's no sign of Earth colonization, no sign of any real advancement at all outside of a moon base. There are almost fewer Zentradi in Macross II's future than there are in post Macross Robotech. The Themepark too is a bit troubling, since DYRL's depiction of Earth after being rained down upon was so tore up it's doubtful those stone artifacts would have survived where steel buildings did not.

But the biggest problem of Macross II was completely re-using DYRL's scene struction & base story, without having a pre-exisitng fleshed out TV series to rely on.

[eugimon]

nicely said Keith.

[JB0]

It's just not a good idea to have a beam weapon randmly discharing in a theme park!

Best. Fireworks. Ever.

[Warmaker]

There are 2 things I liked from Macross II.

- Silvie Gina (they really didn't need to make her "bounce" that much)

- The UN Spacy uniforms

Best. Fireworks. Ever.

Keeps the kids entertained. If they don't become part of the fireworks.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Warmaker