Macross II Why not Canon?

[Mr March]

As someone who likes Macross II, I'll echo Mr March's point: does it really matter whether it's canon or not? Its status doesn't prevent anybody from enjoying it. Aside from some people who try to use Turn A Gundam, you don't often see people trying to cram all the Gundam universes into one. You don't see anybody trying to put all the Yuusha series into one world, or the various continuities of Ghost in the Shell. Just leave Macross II be - whether it's considered canon or not doesn't change the fact that it's still a Macross series.

Very wise. Macross II has always has been Macross and it always will be. Canon continuity status matters not.

[Zinjo]

Turn-A Macross...?

I never got that impression that the Mardook created the Zentradi either, which is why I was so shocked to see it mentioned before. But if Seto Kaiba is backing away from the assertion, then I guess I needn't let it get to me.

So no, I guess there's not much that invalidates MacII in any really obvious way. But even so, as others have said, who cares if it's canonical or not? "Macross Canon" doesn't seem to hamper any of the creators, so it probably shouldn't hamper us.

Well the setting, fighter progression and conspicuous absence of any emigration programs invalidates it in the Nue continuity. Kinda big issues.

However, as an alternate universe it works, as an in universe movie sequel to DYRL it works in the Nue continuity, other than than it would require rework.

[Gubaba]

Well the setting, fighter progression and conspicuous absence of any emigration programs invalidates it in the Nue continuity. Kinda big issues.

However, as an alternate universe it works, as an in universe movie sequel to DYRL it works in the Nue continuity, other than than it would require rework.

I understand the fighter progression issues, but I don't understand why the setting would invalidate it.

And just because no one in Macross II mentions the emigration programs doesn't mean they don't exist, right? No one mentions Protoculture in Macross Plus, but we still assume it exists there.

But that's all nit-picking. I'm not one to strenuously argue for Macross II's inclusion in the canon. It's interesting, it's decent, but it's not necessary for an understanding of the Macross universe (although a similar argument could be made for Dynamite 7, I suppose...)

[ComicKaze]

Banana Moon Love could just be a cover song by the time Macross II occurs.

We have seen that NUNs exists in Macross II

[Duke Togo]

We have seen that NUNs exists in Macross II

[Seto Kaiba]

So wait, did he say they created the Zentradi, or didn't he?

Not in so many words. All of the official publications, including Ken'ichi Yatagai's interview, refer to the Mardook as an ancient alien race which regards its own culture as deeply sacred. Yatagai goes one step further and elaborates on the motivations of the Mardook... that they view their own culture as sacred, and anything else is blasphemous and deserves eradication. He also draws special attention to the fact that the Mardook use both Zentradi and Meltrandi for proxy warfare, and that there were both male and female Mardook serving aboard each ship. What's REALLY noteworthy is that Yatagai never once refers to the Zentradi and Meltrandi soldiers in the Mardook fleet as slaves. What he actually says is "There are Zentradi [and Meltrandi] among the Mardook, and they are used as soldiers". That might not seem like a huge distinction, but it's very important. He never says the Mardook captured and enslaved the Zentradi and Meltrandi that they use in battle. Both in his interview and EB51 they shed a little light on how the Mardook are controlling the Zentradi. They're brainwashed to obey orders from Mardook without question, their battle instincts and emotional states are manipulated by songs from the Emulators, and they're stored in statis when they're not being used.

Let's add up the facts here... we have a miclone alien race made up of both men and women, with an immensely ancient and sacred culture, technology even more advanced than the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and legions of Meltrandi and Zentradi soldiers who not enslaved, but rather are brainwashed into absolute obedience and controlled with songs. There's no Supervision Army in this timeline, and no mention made of other alien races. Not to mention the description of the Mardook lines up well with the DYRL account of mixed-gender ships fleeing the collapse of the Protoculture's civilization. While Yatagai never explicitly states that the Mardook are the Protoculture, all his statements point to that conclusion.

So long as I'm on a roll here, let's clear up another misconception... the lack of colony ships in Macross II. In the official timeline published in B-Club Magazine, and in Entertainment Bible 51, mention is made of Earth launching colony ships! In fact, both books make it plain that Flashback 2012 really does have a place in the timeline too... except its events actually take place in 2014. That's multiple confirmations that the Megaroad-class colony ships, and particularly Megaroad-01 exist in the Macross II timeline. The timeline also makes mention of another colony ship... the Million Star, which is identified as a "Macross-class colonization vessel". The exact date of the Million Star's launch isn't given, though it was most likely launched in 2054, as it's attacked by a massive Zentradi fleet while only 1.8 light years from Earth, leading to the 2054 Zentradi invasion.

There are AT LEAST two distinct classes of colonization ship in the Macross II timeline, though no mention is made of any colony ships landing and establishing colonies.

[Duke Togo]

Let's add up the facts here...

You facts don't add up, he never comes close to saying the Mardook are the Protoculture, or that they created the Zentradi.

[azrael]

I'm perfectly happy with Macross II being a Macross show, but not in the Studio Nue timeline. Just like Gundam X being a Gundam show, but not part of the UC/Tomino timeline. I don't see what's so hard about that.

[Duke Togo]

I'm perfectly happy with Macross II being a Macross show, but not in the Studio Nue timeline. Just like Gundam X being a Gundam show, but not part of the UC/Tomino timeline. I don't see what's so hard about that.

Me neither

[Talos]

First off, Macross II has no place in the Studio Nue timeline, or Plus/7/Frontier in the Big West one. It is an alternate universe entry in franchise and that's where it should stay. I say that as a fan of the OVA/movie.

Duke, I really do think that Seto makes a valid point in the hypothesis that the Mardook are surviving members of the Protoculture. Had there been mention of a Supervision Army in the Macross II continuity, then there would be cause for them to not be, but as it stands that's the most viable option. Their use of song to control the Zentradi and their total control over them even to the point of suicide on the battlefield would imply to me that they were the creators of them, and thus the Protoculture. I've read some of those interviews, and though it's never directly said, they do allude to it in places. I'd say, where has he said that the Mardook didn't create the Zentradi and aren't members of the Protoculture?

[Seto Kaiba]

You facts don't add up, he never comes close to saying the Mardook are the Protoculture, or that they created the Zentradi.

I don't know about that, quite a few people think my facts add up just fine.

It certainly makes quite a bit more sense for the Mardook to be the Protoculture than it does for them to be some never-before seen or mentioned alien race of miclone stature, virtually indistinguishable from humanity and the Zentradi, which captured billions of Zentradi, somehow develops technology so superior to that of the Protoculture that they're able to improve on almost all of the Zentradi equipment and ships, brainwashes those billions of Zentradi soldiers, develops at least two entirely new classes of starship with technology superior to that of Zentradi ships, and then builds their own new type of mobile fortress, and then after that bout of scientific progress, decides to go on a millennia-long bender and exterminate all other sentient life in the galaxy!

The theory that the Mardook are a new alien race that captured and enslaved the Zentradi doesn't hold up under even a common sense analysis, and there's nothing in any official publication to support it either. There is however a large body of evidence that points to the Mardook being the Protoculture. To be brutally frank, the facts in this case are such that there really isn't any other viable explaination for the Mardook other than their being descendants of the Protoculture.

EDIT: Edited for clarity and to correct some poor grammar.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Seto Kaiba

[Duke Togo]

I don't know about that, quite a few people think my facts add up just fine.

Well, people will believe anything, I guess. There are people who believe the bible has coded messages in it, too. You state something as fact that is little more than your opinion based on some dodgy guesswork. Didn't they tell you, the only person around here who's opinion counts as fact is me.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Duke Togo

[jenius]

Wait, so why can't the Mardook be similar to Earth or the Protoculture? Why can't the Mardook just be a very old group of humanoids who at some point the Zentraedi visit and yet the Mardook overcome them with their culture? The humans end up fighting alongside the Zentraedi so maybe the Mardook did the same thing but with a much nastier means of doing so? You're argument that "it would suck if they were just human-like and not protoculture" sounds more like an argument for "The writing of MacrossII sucks" then it does to proving the Mardook are Protoculture. I mean, talk about common sense, if the Mardook are the PROTOCULTURE why aren't they called Protoculture? You would think that if someone were really going to make that connection they'd just go ahead and do it but instead it sounds like the people involved with MacII have gone out of there way NOT to say that.

Edited September 27, 2008 by jenius

[Seto Kaiba]

You state something as fact that is little more than your opinion based on some dodgy guesswork.

What I presented was a theory that elegantly answers most of the questions about the origins of the Mardook, and is supported by a large body of evidence from official publications like Entertainment Bible 51, This is Animation Special #5, and the various B-Club Magazine articles. What you presented was an unfounded claim completely bereft of supporting evidence, a claim which falls apart when examined using common sense.

Didn't they tell you, the only person around here who's opinion counts as fact is me.

No, they most certainly didn't. However, even if they had, I'd still be asking you to back up your claim with evidence.

[Zinjo]

I have to agree with Seto Kaiba on this one.

It tracks very well in the context of DYRL being the historical basis for SW1 and the universe. There were no EVIL series created, thus no SA formed to observe / defend the project. With that, no enemy for the Zentreadi to fight with, except each other in a perpetual civil war.

Essentially DYRL sidesteps the whole PD war entirely.

With the civil war being the reason for the PC demise it is not impossible for a remnant to take control of factions from both camps, brainwash them into obedience and use them in some perverted ethnic cleansing of the galaxy.

Their weaponry was superior, yet not very far removed from what the giants were already using, which suggests a lack of adequate resources to produce what the Nue PC did. In the Nue continuity the PC legacy weaponry was substantially superior to what the technologically stagnant Zentreadi had and even the inventive humans were coming up with.

[Nexx Stalker]

No, they most certainly didn't. However, even if they had, I'd still be asking you to back up your claim with evidence.

Ask him to tell you the story about the SDF4, Global and Megaroad 03 (just joking, Duke )

[TheLoneWolf]

Not in so many words. All of the official publications, including Ken'ichi Yatagai's interview, refer to the Mardook as an ancient alien race which regards its own culture as deeply sacred. Yatagai goes one step further and elaborates on the motivations of the Mardook... that they view their own culture as sacred, and anything else is blasphemous and deserves eradication. He also draws special attention to the fact that the Mardook use both Zentradi and Meltrandi for proxy warfare, and that there were both male and female Mardook serving aboard each ship. What's REALLY noteworthy is that Yatagai never once refers to the Zentradi and Meltrandi soldiers in the Mardook fleet as slaves. What he actually says is "There are Zentradi [and Meltrandi] among the Mardook, and they are used as soldiers". That might not seem like a huge distinction, but it's very important. He never says the Mardook captured and enslaved the Zentradi and Meltrandi that they use in battle. Both in his interview and EB51 they shed a little light on how the Mardook are controlling the Zentradi. They're brainwashed to obey orders from Mardook without question, their battle instincts and emotional states are manipulated by songs from the Emulators, and they're stored in statis when they're not being used.

Let's add up the facts here... we have a miclone alien race made up of both men and women, with an immensely ancient and sacred culture, technology even more advanced than the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and legions of Meltrandi and Zentradi soldiers who not enslaved, but rather are brainwashed into absolute obedience and controlled with songs. There's no Supervision Army in this timeline, and no mention made of other alien races. Not to mention the description of the Mardook lines up well with the DYRL account of mixed-gender ships fleeing the collapse of the Protoculture's civilization. While Yatagai never explicitly states that the Mardook are the Protoculture, all his statements point to that conclusion.

Thanks for shedding some more light on the Mardook and Zentradi. But there are some things in DYRL which, to me, don't quite gel with the notion of the Mardook being the Protocultre. In DYRL, Misa and Global say that the Protoculture fled to Earth a long time ago and created/modified the human race during their time here before leaving the planet 20,000 years ago. If the Mardook are the Protocultre, then why don't they recognize this Solar System nor their creations, the human race. From Macross II, it seems the Mardook randomly happened upon us.

Second, when the Protoculture ruins rise from the ocean, the Laplamis (and presumably Bodolza) fleet detects it and comes to Earth. If the Meltlandi and and Zentradi were able to pick up its signal, then why not the Marduk? After all, if the Marduk are the Protoculture, then it's their city and they should have eventually picked up its signal.

Personally, I think Ken'ichi Yatagai purposely left the question open-ended in order to pique the interest of Macross fans. And it worked too, because we're still discussing it 16 years later.

[Nexx Stalker]

What I presented was a theory that elegantly answers most of the questions about the origins of the Mardook, and is supported by a large body of evidence from official publications like Entertainment Bible 51, This is Animation Special #5, and the various B-Club Magazine articles. What you presented was an unfounded claim completely bereft of supporting evidence, a claim which falls apart when examined using common sense.

As you have stated, however, not once they clearly state that the Marduke are Protoculture.

In a dialogue of the series, on the contrary, it is clearly stated that the Marduke are a product of Protoculture.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wait, so why can't the Mardook be similar to Earth or the Protoculture? Why can't the Mardook just be a very old group of humanoids who at some point the Zentraedi visit and yet the Mardook overcome them with their culture?

Because that theory requires a large number of assumptions in order to work out. First, that by some miracle of convergant evolution the Mardook evolved looking identical to humanity (the Star Trek principle). Second, that thousands or tens of thousands of years ago, back when humanity was still sorting out the concept of agriculture, the Mardook had technology so advanced they were able to defeat the Zentradi (culture alone doesn't do the job). Three, that the Mardook were able to find ways to control and enslave the Zentradi, beings five times their size (humanity had enough trouble just trying to get them to tone down the violence). Four, that over a few millennia, Mardook science advanced so much that they were able to outdo the Protoculture technologically. Five, that for some reason, they decided to have a go at genocide on a galactic scale.

I mean, talk about common sense, if the Mardook are the PROTOCULTURE why aren't they called Protoculture? You would think that if someone were really going to make that connection they'd just go ahead and do it but instead it sounds like the people involved with MacII have gone out of there way NOT to say that.

From a common sense perspective, are they still going to call themselves the Protoculture after their civilization collapsed half a million years ago, and after an unspecified amount of time living under the dictatorial rule of Emperor Ingues? For example, are we still going to call this continent America in half a million years? We called Iran Persia until about seventy years ago. It is a textbook dictator move to try and establish a new cultural identity for the people in that dictator's thrall... maybe that's what Ingues did.

If the Mardook are the Protocultre, then why don't they recognize this Solar System nor their creations, the human race. From Macross II, it seems the Mardook randomly happened upon us.

Second, when the Protoculture ruins rise from the ocean, the Laplamis (and presumably Bodolza) fleet detects it and comes to Earth. If the Meltlandi and and Zentradi were able to pick up its signal, then why not the Marduk? After all, if the Marduk are the Protoculture, then it's their city and they should have eventually picked up its signal.

The answer to your first question goes back to DYRL. The Protoculture abandoned their cityship when the Zentradi came calling, and never returned. Presumably they were either killed, or died out before being able to return. It could be that the Mardook are the descendants of the Protoculture who fled Earth in about 18,000 BCE (20,000yrs before DYRL) made a blind fold jump, got lost, and Earth was eventually forgotten. Actually, this is an interesting plot point in the main timeline too, where the Protoculture ship that genetically modified humanity was destroyed by forces opposed to the Stellar Republic before it could return to base.

The answer to your second is that it would take a signal a long time to reach across the entire galaxy. Nobody knows where the Mardook were in 2009, possibly on the other side of the galactic disc. For that matter, after 20,000 years, would they even recognize the ship as one of their own? Maybe they did pick up the signal, and didn't know how to interpret it.

Personally, I think Ken'ichi Yatagai purposely left the question open-ended in order to pique the interest of Macross fans. And it worked too, because we're still discussing it 16 years later.

I would be inclined to agree, though there are so very many tantalizing clues that point to the Protoculture, or more accurately, the descendants of the Protoculture who escaped the war between the Zentradi and Meltrandi.

As you have stated, however, not once they clearly state that the Marduke are Protoculture.

In a dialogue of the series, on the contrary, it is clearly stated that the Marduke are a product of Protoculture.

I would question which definintion of the word "product" you're using. The interpretation that the series and the publications suggest to me is that the Mardook are descended from the surviving Protoculture, rather than a sub-Protoculture species (like humanity) which somehow seized control of a combined force of Zentradi and Meltrandi.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Seto Kaiba

[Duke Togo]

I have to agree with Seto Kaiba on this one.

Not surprising. I like ya, Zin, but you have some crazy ideas.

This whole discussion seems to be little more than fan fiction, to me. I am sure if I spent enough time obsessing over it, I could convince myself that Macross II was a sequel to The Goonies. I am sorry, he doesn't come anywhere close to calling the Mardook the Protoculture or the creators of the Zentradi. You have making a mountain out of a mole hill, you are seeing something that is not there.

You love Macross II, and I have no problem with that. I'm a big fan of some of the mecha in the series. And if you want to delve into fan fiction, I'd say its not my thing, but I hope that works out for you. But please, stop trying to be the Macross Compendium, because you aren't, and you're trying to push off your opinion as fact.

[Nexx Stalker]

I would question which definintion of the word "product" you're using. The interpretation that the series and the publications suggest to me is that the Mardook are descended from the surviving Protoculture, rather than a sub-Protoculture species (like humanity) which somehow seized control of a combined force of Zentradi and Meltrandi.

You may be right. I'll try to write down the lines of dialogue where this is mentioned as soon as I have some spare time.

[Mr March]

This whole discussion seems to be little more than fan fiction, to me. I am sure if I spent enough time obsessing over it, I could convince myself that Macross II was a sequel to The Goonies. I am sorry, he doesn't come anywhere close to calling the Mardook the Protoculture or the creators of the Zentradi. You have making a mountain out of a mole hill, you are seeing something that is not there.

This is pretty much my feeling. Reading too much into what isn't there so the big picture is lost. It could be something as simple as theme that makes all the difference (like all Macross shows being multi-star system stories with the exception of Macross II). But one wouldn't recognize such when hammering that square peg into the round hole.

Now I admit there's no harm in a mental exercise like trying to wedge MII into canon and I don't think anyone is suggesting fans shouldn't be allowed to dream. But personally, I don't see the gain. When I tech geek to calculate a thrust-to-weight ratio, the result has merit because it's all official figures simply shown as a pie rather than a bar, if you know what I mean. I could fan fiction MII into Nue continuity all I want, but at the end of the day Macross II is still out, Norman

[Duke Togo]

This whole discussion makes me think of Robotech. Back in he old a.f.m days, there were fans who SWORE the SDF-2 appears in the original animation.

[TheLoneWolf]

It could be that the Mardook are the descendants of the Protoculture who fled Earth in about 18,000 BCE (20,000yrs before DYRL) made a blind fold jump, got lost, and Earth was eventually forgotten.

That would explain why the Mardook don't recognize Earth, but the problem is that we're using supposition to reach a conclusion.

Actually, this is an interesting plot point in the main timeline too, where the Protoculture ship that genetically modified humanity was destroyed by forces opposed to the Stellar Republic before it could return to base.

This may be a dumb question, but do DYRL and SDFM definitively share the same pre-2009 timeline? If so, then we know what happened to the Protoculture that left the Earth in DYRL.

The answer to your second is that it would take a signal a long time to reach across the entire galaxy. Nobody knows where the Mardook were in 2009, possibly on the other side of the galactic disc. For that matter, after 20,000 years, would they even recognize the ship as one of their own? Maybe they did pick up the signal, and didn't know how to interpret it.

I agree that it would take a long time for the signal to reach across the galaxy, but again, we would have to suppose that the Mardook were too far to pick it up. As for your second point, if the Mardook were to receive the signal, then they should be able to interpret it. The Zentradi/Meltlandi were able to interpret the signal just fine, and in Macross II Ishtar demonstrates that the Mardook understand Zentran as well as their own language.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Mardook being the Protoculture, but it seems all we're left to work with are clues and hints that are subject to interpretation. We can easily say that the Mardook are the Protoculture with a little bit of fan conjecture, but I just don't feel comfortable completely subscribing to that notion without explicit proof. Good discussions, Seto Kaiba!

[Seto Kaiba]

You may be right. I'll try to write down the lines of dialogue where this is mentioned as soon as I have some spare time.

Okay then, that promises to be interesting

This whole discussion seems to be little more than fan fiction, to me. I am sorry, he doesn't come anywhere close to calling the Mardook the Protoculture or the creators of the Zentradi. You have making a mountain out of a mole hill, you are seeing something that is not there.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but obviously more than a few people think there is something to this. The creators of a show are not always going to come right out and say "this is how it is, let there be no debate". Sometimes, writers and directors deliberately leave things ambiguous to try and get you thinking, or will reveal the truth through a bunch of little clues that point to a single conclusion. It's not always cut and dry, if it was, there'd be no such thing as a plot twist. Is it definite that the Mardook are the Protoculture? Of course not. What I presented was a theory based on the available information in official publications, and informed speculation based on other titles in this branch timeline. Snide remarks aside, all you've offered to this discussion has been one claim that you can't back up... that the Mardook enslaved the Zentradi using the Emulators. If you're more interesting in having simple answers than accurate ones, I'll phone up Kevin Siembieda and ask him if Palladium's got any openings for writers.

You love Macross II, and I have no problem with that. I'm a big fan of some of the mecha in the series. And if you want to delve into fan fiction, I'd say its not my thing, but I hope that works out for you.

Yes, I do love Macross II. No, I don't think that it belongs in the main timeline. I'm not delving into fan fiction, this is what's called informed speculation. It's something that people do in debates and intelligent discourse. If you have a problem with that, you're welcome to ignore it and do your own thing instead, but don't try to ruin it for everyone else. That'd just be immature.

But please, stop trying to be the Macross Compendium, because you aren't, and you're trying to push off your opinion as fact.

I would ask the same of you. Had you actually read my posts, you would know that I have taken great care to remind people that what I am presenting is a theory. I have not attempted to pass my theories about the Mardook off as fact in this thread. Until such time as Ken'ichi Yatagai or someone of similar standing in the Macross II creative process comes right out and says yea or nay on it, the matter remains open and there is no harm in speculation. I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to pass judgement on what is and isn't worth discussing.

This may be a dumb question, but do DYRL and SDFM definitively share the same pre-2009 timeline? If so, then we know what happened to the Protoculture that left the Earth in DYRL.

I don't think so... since the Protodevlin, Supervision Army, and Protoculture biomecha don't exist in the Macross II branch timeline. Obviously, some of the generalities are the same, but there are also major differences, like the presence of a cityship on Earth's surface circa 18,000 BCE, or the war being between men and women who reproduce asexually, rather than the Protoculture and Supervision Army. To the best of my knowledge, the fate of the Protoculture who fled Earth 20,000 years before Space War 1 is officially unknown.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Mardook being the Protoculture, but it seems all we're left to work with are clues and hints that are subject to interpretation. We can easily say that the Mardook are the Protoculture with a little bit of fan conjecture, but I just don't feel comfortable completely subscribing to that notion without explicit proof. Good discussions, Seto Kaiba!

Yeah, the mystery behind the Mardook's origins is something I wish they'd explored a little more thoroughly in the course of the OVA. Unfortunately, you can only do so much in six episodes. Maybe the matter will be settled once and for all in a future issue of Macross Chronicle. They've already given a canon designation to the Metal Siren... seems to me like they're not ignoring Macross II as much as they have in the past. I don't think it would be right for anyone to subscribe to that notion with any degree of certainty without explicit proof, which is why contrary to Duke Togo's belief, I've maintained it's a theory... rather than a fact. I'd love to one day have the matter settled for good one way or the other... then again I'd also love to see an OVA verison of Macross: Eternal Love Song.

[Duke Togo]

I would ask the same of you. Had you actually read my posts, you would know that I have taken great care to remind people that what I am presenting is a theory.

Let me quote you: "At several different points in Entertainment Bible, the Mardook are referred to as the creators of the Zentradi." From this thread.

[505thAirborne]

I'm always amazed by the people who quite frankly do not like Macross II, do not except as a valid entry in to the macross world. Yet can't stop talking about it or finding ways to prove the fans of that series are wrong. Who died and made you all the official writers of macross.

You don't like Macross II, fine. But let the fans of it enjoy it.

I've been hearing this debate for years & years now. I saw it 1st in Japanese, then Translated & even in the Theater on Sunset Blvd. in LA. Loved it then, still love watching it now.

If you can not get over the idea of Kawamori not being involved, too bad. Cry a river about it.

There are many ways that Macross II could & can be involved in the official time line, yet however many of you seem to feel the urge of finding every way possible to denounce that idea.

[VF-25 Messiah]

I'm always amazed by the people who quite frankly do not like Macross II, do not except as a valid entry in to the macross world. Yet can't stop talking about it or finding ways to prove the fans of that series are wrong. Who died and made you all the official writers of macross.

You don't like Macross II, fine. But let the fans of it enjoy it.

I've been hearing this debate for years & years now. I saw it 1st in Japanese, then Translated & even in the Theater on Sunset Blvd. in LA. Loved it then, still love watching it now.

If you can not get over the idea of Kawamori not being involved, too bad. Cry a river about it.

There are many ways that Macross II could & can be involved in the official time line, yet however many of you seem to feel the urge of finding every way possible to denounce that idea.

Don't think anyone ever argued about it not being Macross. But it's not part of the Canon timeline by Kawamori and Studio Nue. And precisely because of the reason they denounced it as being such. End of story. And while its not one of my favourites, I liked Macross II.

[505thAirborne]

Hey VF-25, I agree with you that it is not part of the Kawamori or Studio Nue time line, I'm just saying that every time this discussion comes up, seems like everyone can't wait to find a reason why it can not be accepted thats all. Its like a 10th commandment rule or something, "thou shall not ever find a connection in the time lines....EVER!!"

I like Macross II and welcome it as part of the series as an equal.

[VF-25 Messiah]

Hey VF-25, I agree with you that it is not part of the Kawamori or Studio Nue time line, I'm just saying that every time this discussion comes up, seems like everyone can't wait to find a reason why it can not be accepted thats all. Its like a 10th commandment rule or something, "thou shall not ever find a connection in the time lines....EVER!!"

I like Macross II and welcome it as part of the series as an equal.

Well, if we reverse the situation, I cannot fathom what there would be to gain from trying to connect the two.

It'd be like trying to connect all the alternate universes of Gundam, equally fruitless. They don't fit, but they don't have to either.

[Nexx Stalker]

Well, if we reverse the situation, I cannot fathom what there would be to gain from trying to connect the two.

It'd be like trying to connect all the alternate universes of Gundam, equally fruitless. They don't fit, but they don't have to either.

Except that it fits. 7 and Plus, being completed after Macross II, were not in the plans at the time, but nothing in those series, or in Frontier, denies anything that is in Macross II. Many of Macross II ideas have been integrated into the franchise and there has been an effort (how much deliberate we may never know) of not making II incompatible with all the other series (until Kawamori decides otherwise, of course). A boy or girl discovering Macross for the first time today (without resorting or having to know about old Entertainment Bibles, magazines, etc.) could watch all Macross series one after the other and think that they all fit together and are part of a great space opera. That's all

Edited September 27, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[Saraphys]

Let me quote you: "At several different points in Entertainment Bible, the Mardook are referred to as the creators of the Zentradi." From this thread.

...talk about taking something out of context.

So it says that the Mardook created the Zentradi. I make pizza's for myself, will you claim that because of that, i make all the pizza in the world, Duke?

What Kaiba has been saying has been speculation based on the available facts, which include such statements from the creators as "The Mardook created the Zentradi", and "Mardook technology bare's a marked Zentradi design", and the topper "The Mardook have a fully functional, working Fleet Base". These points alone suggest a very high probability of the Mardook being the descendants of, or even the Protoculture themselves (Atleast, in Ingues' case).

...But thats an opinion based on the available facts.

Just like its an opinion that no matter how much they want to dismiss it, Macross II seems to be right in there with every other Macross works...even having its own page on the official site, and its Mecha (Specifically the Metal Siren) having an official designation.

Maybe if this speculative discussion is rubbing you the wrong way, you shouldn't continue voicing your 'obviously' non-importent opinion in it.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Saraphys

[Nexx Stalker]

...talk about taking something out of context.

So it says that the Mardook created the Zentradi. I make pizza's for myself, will you claim that because of that, i make all the pizza in the world, Duke?

What Kaiba has been saying has been speculation based on the available facts, which include such statements from the creators as "The Mardook created the Zentradi", and "Mardook technology bare's a marked Zentradi design", and the topper "The Mardook have a fully functional, working Fleet Base". These points alone suggest a very high probability of the Mardook being the descendants of, or even the Protoculture themselves (Atleast, in Ingues' case).

...But thats an opinion based on the available facts.

Just like its an opinion that no matter how much they want to dismiss it, Macross II seems to be right in there with every other Macross works...even having its own page on the official site, and its Mecha (Specifically the Metal Siren) having an official designation.

Maybe if this speculative discussion is rubbing you the wrong way, you shouldn't continue voicing your 'obviously' non-importent opinion in it.

Well spoken, my friend!

Back to the speculation, by listening to the dialogue I always thought the Marduke/Ingues are what the Zentraedi calle the Supervision Army, the Macross being the Alus (a mythical Marduke lost ship) and all.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[Nexx Stalker]

Okay then, that promises to be interesting

Damn! I'm still looking for it. I have an avi of the Movie compilation but have not been able to find the reference I was looking for (yet). I may have to re-watch my original videotapes...

[Duke Togo]

...talk about taking something out of context.

Talk about problems with reading comprehension.

Never once in these publications are the Mardook referred to as the creators of the Zentradi. Not once! He is assuming, that is his guess. It is his opinion. And he states, "Had you actually read my posts, you would know that I have taken great care to remind people that what I am presenting is a theory." But this statement, "At several different points in Entertainment Bible, the Mardook are referred to as the creators of the Zentradi." IS FALSE. Not once is this said. He is not presenting this to you as a theory, he is stating this as a supposed "fact" to back up his assumptions.

Anyway, continue on with playing "what if? with Macross II. You can come and get me when you guys start posting up Metal Siren pics. I like me some Metal Siren!