Macross II Why not Canon?

[Duke Togo]

To be honest, I must confess I don't care You're almost certainly right, but then the SDF4 is the Global.

We're talking MII here, pal, let's go back on topic!

sigh...

No, its not. But, whatever.

[Oihan]

I re-watched it completely yesterday, and that's why I revived the thread. Last time I saw it was several years ago (man, I had to take out my old VHSs and VCR!!! ), so I was curious and I paid special attention to dialogue and events to see if there was anything that could exclude the Macross II story from the actual continuity. Well, there wasn't.

It all felt perfectly fitting.

More fitting than ever, to be sincere. NUNS and the military being "outdated" (media control, appearance over real streaght, etc, all the things we began to see in the original Macross, and after that in M7 and now Frontier), the Macross Cannons/Macross Quarter, advance Valkyries with armor packs and drones, etc. The list could go on.

It is also interesting to note that at some point Ishtar confirms that the Marduke are a product of protoculture, making them a plausible part of the big picture (Ingues may very well be either a rogue Bodol-type fortress gone mad or - along with the Marduke and enslaved zentradi - a member of the infamous Supervision Army - The SDF1, called the Alus, is said to be a legendary Marduk ship, in fact).

But let's get back on track. I agree with DestroidDefender: nothing done or said during the episodes denies the existence of several worlds and colonization fleets nor any event from M7, Plus or Frontier. Nothing at all. There's even more to it: Isamu in Plus fights against a "possessed SDF1 which is clearly used as a sort of UN Headquarters. In MII the SDF1 is not used anymore but well kept, like a monument. It makes sense that after the Sharon Apple incident (the last time in a Macross production where Earth appears) the Spacy decided to decommission it.

To sum up: I liked it much more after all these years (mind you, I liked it even the first time, even if the animation of the first half of ep.6 is not good at all). Why did I enjoy it so much now? Because it felt absolutely Macross and, most of all, it felt wholly part of the big Macross saga.

Everyone is free to discard it as "non canon", but as a matter of fact, it shouldn't.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the SDF4 is not the Megaroad 03. Strangely enough, the Megaroad 03 doesn't appear in the much debated opening scene (ep1) of Frontier. Coincidence? So your guess is as good as mine or anyone else. Maybe the Megaroad 03 found an inhabitable planet and the SDF4 was then used as an escort ship for a Science convoy in deep space. Who knows?

There's a whole thread devoted to this thing, let's keep the SDF4 argument in the place where it belongs.

Great post! I agree with a lot of the points you've made...which I think all are pretty solid. It'd be nice if it was recognized once again as canon. One could even consider it an ending to the Macross series, with the way the Macross is destroyed.

As for relying on the Minmay Attack. Even in Frontier they were relying on Ranka to sing...so I don't see how relying on the Minmay Attack, 80 years after SDF Macross took place, is not plausible.

[Fanboy]Macross II 0wnz![/Fanboy]

[MisaForever]

Why do I not hear any mention of Mikimoto? You guys act like he doesn't exist. Without him, we wouldn't have had the characters for the original Macross.

[Gubaba]

Why do I not hear any mention of Mikimoto? You guys act like he doesn't exist. Without him, we wouldn't have had the characters for the original Macross.

The character designs for MacII are, IMHO, quite nice.

But yeah...you'll also notice that no one mentions Sukehiro Tomita, who wrote MacII. He was also one of the main writers on SDFM and DYRL, and later went on to work on Mac7, D7, and Macross Generation. So although MacII was done without Studio Nue's involvement, there were a few old-school Macross people who worked on it.

As for why it can't can't be canonical, it seems to me that it boils down to two things: VF-2 (what about VF-4 through 27...?) and the fact that Mardook apparently created the Zentradi.

[Duke Togo]

As for why it can't can't be canonical, it seems to me that it boils down to two things: VF-2 (what about VF-4 through 27...?) and the fact that Mardook apparently created the Zentradi.

The Marduk did not create the Zentradi in II, they enslaved them using "Emulators".

[Zinjo]

There are a few holes in your theory.

In Mac II the total area of the population centers are coastal with cities based from landed Zentreadi cap ships, whereas in the Nue continuity, Macross city is a megalopolis with few known cities nearby.

They use VF-2's, whereas in the Nue continuity the successor to the VF-1 was the VF-4.

A common misconception among Western fans is that the image projected during the Minmay Defence was actually Minmay. It wasn't. It was a current pop starlet singing to evoke a culture shock on the Zentreadi agressors.

The macross cannon "augmentation" on the SDF warship in Mac II is nothing like the evolutionary direction of these weapons that we've seen in the Nue continuity.

If you were to adapt this series to fit the Nue continuity, it could be done with several of the revelations we've already been given.

1. The world is not earth, but a colony world that inadvertantly folded into a briar patch of fold faults (this takes care of how they'd be cut off from the Galaxy Network).

2. The era would probably be best suited to the 2060 or even 2061 years, with the actual departure date prior to the 2020s.

2. The colony convoy was accompanied by an SDF warship, Macross class (not the SDF-1).

3. Without access to the Galaxy Network they had to rely on themselves for weapons upgrades and combined the design elements of the VF-1 and the VF-4 into a new fighter design as well as updates to existing destroid designs and capital ship designs to compliment the existing Zentreadi fleet.

4. The Marduk could be the SA or at least a faction of the SA of the post PD era, since they understand the power of song and mind control. This would explain microns and giants in the same task force. Over the eons they developed their own little empire in that part of the galaxy. Equipped with original PC technology, fold faults would not affect them as they did humanity.

5. The Alus remains a mis-understood legend.

6. Several other story elements would need to be explained to best harmonize with the Nue continuity.

7. The final discovery of their system by an NMC survey group equipped with fold quartz modified engines.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Zinjo

[Nexx Stalker]

They use VF-2's, whereas in the Nue continuity the successor to the VF-1 was the VF-4.

Be careful with designations: the ones in Macross II are VF II (not VF2). The Roman number means it's a whole new concept, whereas the original VF1 line continued with VF4, VF17, 19, 25, 27, (keeps going). it may seem trivial, but there's a difference here.

The Marduk did not create the Zentradi in II, they enslaved them using "Emulators".

Duke is right.

Macross II is Macross enough. It doesn't have to fit into the Macross history. It's got the valkyries, the music, the alien menace, the war story, the love story, et al. I may not have liked it, but it is Macrossy enough to be Macross. So what if it's a parallel world; no harm there.

Still, I'd personally prefer it if Macross II remained outside the Macross history. At this point, it's just too far out of sync with the main continuity and each sequel only pushes MII farther and farther away. The entire setting, the post-war development, the anachronistic technology, the lack of colonization, and so forth just rubs everything the wrong way.

Try to forget for a moment the "written background" (gathered from magazines and several other sources) for Macross II and just watch the six episodes. You'll find, as I stated early, that absolutely nothing contradicts the "canon" series. Technology-wise, I always thought the designs from Macross II to be more futuristic than, say, M7 or even Frontier. In this case, , I think it's a matter of taste.

At this point, it's like Macross Frontier vs. Shadow Chronicles; the two have diverged to such a degree they are now totally different animals.

Blasphemy !!!

It'd be nice if it was recognized once again as canon. One could even consider it an ending to the Macross series, with the way the Macross is destroyed.

As for relying on the Minmay Attack. Even in Frontier they were relying on Ranka to sing...so I don't see how relying on the Minmay Attack, 80 years after SDF Macross took place, is not plausible.

It's good to see I'm not alone out here

PS: Mikimoto rocks! Ranka & Sheryl, eat your heart out

Edited September 25, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[Oihan]

Why do I not hear any mention of Mikimoto? You guys act like he doesn't exist. Without him, we wouldn't have had the characters for the original Macross.

My sentiments exactly! Just because Kawamori Shoji isn't envolved doesn't make it any less Macross or canon.

Edit: Is it really a common misconception that the image projected is Minmay? I never thought the image of that woman was Minmay...I mean it doesn't even look like Minmay! Maybe if it were a Minmay song they were playing, then I'd probably think it was Minmay. If anything, when I first saw II I thought the image of that woman was the new idol.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Oihan

[Sergorn]

But let's get back on track. I agree with DestroidDefender: nothing done or said during the episodes denies the existence of several worlds and colonization fleets nor any event from M7, Plus or Frontier. Nothing at all.

While it's true that nothing denies it.... nothing implies it either. Eck just from watching the series it feels like the UN Spacy in Macross II is basically Earth and that's it - and that Earth has basically been sitting on its collective butt even since the end of the War, merely using the "Minmay Attack" whenever a Zentradi fleet comes by.

I'm not sure why it seems such a big deal to have it canon (or not) - there are two discting continuity that works well, as long as you enjoyr it, who cares

-Sergorn

[valkyriepilot]

Be careful with designations: the ones in Macross II are VF II (not VF2). The Roman number means it's a whole new concept, whereas the original VF1 line continued with VF4, VF17, 19, 25, 27, (keeps going). it may seem trivial, but there's a difference here.

Uhhh.... you seem to be confused here, the VFs in Macross II are labeled as either VF-2SS or VF-2JA, not VF-IISS or VF-IIJA. The Roman Number designation is only attached to the word Valkyrie (as in Valkyrie II) not the fighter designation itself. Macross Official Website lists these as so too (see attached screenshot image)...

And I may be wrong in this, but the way I understand it, each Valkyrie class (VF-1, VF-2, VF-4, VF-19, etc...) is new class/concept each on its own, the Valkyrie II class including.

[Nexx Stalker]

Uhhh.... you seem to be confused here, the VFs in Macross II are labeled as either VF-2SS or VF-2JA, not VF-IISS or VF-IIJA. The Roman Number designation is only attached to the word Valkyrie (as in Valkyrie II) not the fighter designation itself. Macross Official Website lists these as so too (see attached screenshot image)...

Yep, right. I meant Valkyrie II, being a new class of Valkyries.

[Beltane70]

I'll laugh if someday, in the future, they make a new Macross series or OVA that takes place in the same year that Macross II would have taken place.

[Nexx Stalker]

While it's true that nothing denies it.... nothing implies it either. Eck just from watching the series it feels like the UN Spacy in Macross II is basically Earth and that's it - and that Earth has basically been sitting on its collective butt even since the end of the War, merely using the "Minmay Attack" whenever a Zentradi fleet comes by.

I'm not sure why it seems such a big deal to have it canon (or not) - there are two discting continuity that works well, as long as you enjoyr it, who cares

-Sergorn

I'm with you when you say it's no big deal. It's just that I've never even thought, even for a moment, that MII was "non-canon" until I began to surf the internet and read Macross Compendium and join Macross World back in '03! Watching it two days ago after ages, I was afraid that my personal chronology was going to be blown to pieces, and I was surprised to see that the series doesn't stand out from the rest and still feels part of a whole. I liked what I saw.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[Zinjo]

Frontier's new concepts for the universe opens the door to the possibility of inclusion, but no story teller would allow themselves to be shackled to another man's vision of the universe they created.

Allow it to co-exist as a story within the existing universe with harmonizing changes?

Sure, that is a possibility.

It's like writing a novel with an evolving story and then trying to make it shoehorn into another man's chapter later in the book. The writer has a choice, change the chapter to fit or discard it entirely from the book.

[Nexx Stalker]

Frontier's new concepts for the universe opens the door to the possibility of inclusion, but no story teller would allow themselves to be shackled to another man's vision of the universe they created.

To be honest, Kawamori is not the sole author/mind behind Macross (not the first TV series, at least), but I see your point. That doesn't change my opinion, either.

[Gubaba]

The Marduk did not create the Zentradi in II, they enslaved them using "Emulators".

Seto Kaiba mentioned before that one of the Macross II books lists the mardook as being creators of the Zentradi. Of course, even after a long search, I can't seem to find that post (it may have been in the Macross II thread at RT.com) and since I don't have the book in question, it's not an easily testable hypothesis...I decided to give him the benefit of a doubt, though. Seto Kaiba seems to be tied only with Oihan in devotion to Macross II.

EDIT: Found it!

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=6

At several different points in Entertainment Bible, the Mardook are referred to as the creators of the Zentradi. I'd say that, plus what we've got from the TV series and DYRL movie, is enough to at least tenatively say that the Mardook are in fact a group of surviving Protoculture.

Again, since I don't have the Entertainment Bible, I can't really go back and check to see if he's right...but really, why would anyone lie about something so outrageous?

Edited September 25, 2008 by Gubaba

[Mr March]

Try to forget for a moment the "written background" (gathered from magazines and several other sources) for Macross II and just watch the six episodes. You'll find, as I stated early, that absolutely nothing contradicts the "canon" series. Technology-wise, I always thought the designs from Macross II to be more futuristic than, say, M7 or even Frontier. In this case, , I think it's a matter of taste.

Blasphemy !!!

What you're suggesting amounts to nothing less than running a Macek-esque train over Macross II. As much as I don't like Macross II, I would never wish that on any anime, least of all any more Macross. Blasphemy indeed IMO, Macross II has aged poorly, much more so than all the other Macross productions. Besides, it is what it is, set in one solar system, pristine Earth, no colonies, anachronistic designs and so on. Take that away and its not Macross II any more.

Like Gundam Wing, just leave MII alone in it's own little world. It can still be Macross even if it's not in the main timeline. No big loss.

[Duke Togo]

Again, since I don't have the Entertainment Bible, I can't really go back and check to see if he's right...but really, why would anyone lie about something so outrageous?

Because they're totally mistaken or quoting a faulty source?

[Gubaba]

Because they're totally mistaken or quoting a faulty source?

Touché.

[Nexx Stalker]

What you're suggesting amounts to nothing less than running a Macek-esque train over Macross II. As much as I don't like Macross II, I would never wish that on any anime, least of all any more Macross. Blasphemy indeed

Don't twist my words with meanings they don't have. Also, I'm not trying to change your view or anyone else's view. It's a fact that by watching the six episodes of Macross II nothing makes it "non-canon" (until ep. 24 of Frontier, of course). Written chronologies and facts besides the series, in the Macross universe, are just not reliable . Heck, Kawamori still plays with us with the differences between Original Macross movie and TV series and we still dont' have a clear answer. To be honest, I like it this way. I love to have the freedom to fill in the gaps. That's what good storytellers do: give us stories that don't guide us or tell us everything about their stories, but make us dream and use our own imagination.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[ChrisG]

As someone who likes Macross II, I'll echo Mr March's point: does it really matter whether it's canon or not? Its status doesn't prevent anybody from enjoying it. Aside from some people who try to use Turn A Gundam, you don't often see people trying to cram all the Gundam universes into one. You don't see anybody trying to put all the Yuusha series into one world, or the various continuities of Ghost in the Shell. Just leave Macross II be - whether it's considered canon or not doesn't change the fact that it's still a Macross series.

Edited September 25, 2008 by ChrisG

[Seto Kaiba]

Because they're totally mistaken or quoting a faulty source?

The theory that the Mardook are the Protoculture and created the Zentradi was based on remarks made by Ken'ichi Yatagai in a B-Club Magazine interview, and stuff out of Entertainment Bible 51 and the manga adaptation. While it's not 100% definite that the Mardook are survivors of the Protoculture (as no publication baldfacedly says it), the evidence all points that way, like the many statements in official publications that talk about the Mardook's views on culture, that they have superior technology to the Zentradi and New UN Spacy, and how they control their brainwashed Zentran and Meltran soldiers.

Since Macross II: Lovers Again is a sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love? and accepts DYRL as being the true version of Space War 1 (explicitly stated in B-Club Magazine), there's no Supervision Army, as the war was between the Zentradi and Meltrandi. Having the Mardook be creations of the Protoculture would contradict what was said about the creation of the Zentradi and Meltrandi in DYRL, about the creation of giant warriors to fight the war between men and women. It also seems absurd to assume that an alien race managed to successfully conquer and enslave an entire main fleet on its own, and then went to the trouble of producing a mobile fortress with a Mardook commander. The Mardook being the Protoculture really is about the only feasible explaination that answers all those concerns.

As far as my sources go, rest assured I've got hardcopies of all the official ones (both B-Club Magazine articles on the OVA, TiAS #5: Macross II, Entertainment Bible 51) and I'm working my way through the unofficial ones as well just for good measure, I've recently obtained the MechaPress and Protoculture Addicts issues featuring Macross II. Also, thanks to several generous folks who won't take no for an answer, I've got like four copies of each RPG book, and several as-of-yet unassembled VF-2SS kits.

Aside from his dislike for the storyline, I agree with Mr. March. Macross II is much better off as a separate story in its own little branch timeline than part of the main timeline. Elements of the story just don't tally with the main timeline.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

You know I can't help but laugh at this debate of integrating Macross II to the SK continuity.

One of the plot bunnies on my head for a official Macross universe x DYRL-Macross II crossover fanfic is using a space-time bomb used in Orguss.

[Vifam7]

Theoretically Kawamori could take Macross II re-edit it, retcon the details like the timeline and then re-insert it as part of the official Macross chronology. Call it MACROSS II ~ A NEW TRANSLATION BY S. KAWAMORI.

[VF-25 Messiah]

There's a perfect way of integrating Macross II into the main storyline: Say it's a sequel to the in-universe movie version of DYRL, and there you have it.

[RedWolf]

There's a perfect way of integrating Macross II into the main storyline: Say it's a sequel to the in-universe movie version of DYRL, and there you have it.

That would cmake it a anti-military movie.

Produced by Kaifun?

[VF-25 Messiah]

That would cmake it a anti-military movie.

Produced by Kaifun?

Quite possibly

[Zinjo]

There's a perfect way of integrating Macross II into the main storyline: Say it's a sequel to the in-universe movie version of DYRL, and there you have it.

That is certainly another possibility....

[Oihan]

...nvm.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Oihan

[Duke Togo]

The theory that the Mardook are the Protoculture and created the Zentradi was based on remarks made by Ken'ichi Yatagai in a B-Club Magazine interview, and stuff out of Entertainment Bible 51 and the manga adaptation. While it's not 100% definite that the Mardook are survivors of the Protoculture (as no publication baldfacedly says it), the evidence all points that way, like the many statements in official publications that talk about the Mardook's views on culture, that they have superior technology to the Zentradi and New UN Spacy, and how they control their brainwashed Zentran and Meltran soldiers.

So wait, did he say they created the Zentradi, or didn't he?

[TheLoneWolf]

In ELS Zentradi and Meltrandi are enemies indicating DYRL.

I take back what I said earlier, you're right about Macross 2036, ELS, and II occurring in the same universe as DYRL. I completely forgot that Komilia is 17 years old in 2036, which removes that game from the TV continuity. Seto Kaiba's above post cements that fact.

Next time I'll know better than to trust in-game graphics.

[Gubaba]

So wait, did he say they created the Zentradi, or didn't he?

I'm not sure, even after reading Seto Kaiba's response several times.

Seto, would it be possible to give some specifics?

[RedWolf]

Never did get the story of Macross VO or PCE Macross: Remember Me but from what I can surmise they are also derivatives of DYRL.

[terry the lone wolf]

From watching the movie I never got the impression that the Marduk were the ones that created the Zentradi just utilized their captured ones. I believe Macross 2 and even Robotech should stay as alternate universe versions of SDF Macross. Macross 2 should be a universe where all past continuity is shared and valid.

[Gubaba]

From watching the movie I never got the impression that the Marduk were the ones that created the Zentradi just utilized their captured ones. I believe Macross 2 and even Robotech should stay as alternate universe versions of SDF Macross. Macross 2 should be a universe where all past continuity is shared and valid.

Turn-A Macross...?

I never got that impression that the Mardook created the Zentradi either, which is why I was so shocked to see it mentioned before. But if Seto Kaiba is backing away from the assertion, then I guess I needn't let it get to me.

So no, I guess there's not much that invalidates MacII in any really obvious way. But even so, as others have said, who cares if it's canonical or not? "Macross Canon" doesn't seem to hamper any of the creators, so it probably shouldn't hamper us.