Macross II Why not Canon?

[Zinjo]

Why is this even a discussion? As others have pointed out, Future Chronicle (which came with the R2 OVA release of Plus) relegated II to a "Parallel Universe" status. I know, I've seen it!

One of the few, and don't think I'm not jealous...

The only clues as to the origins of the Marduk are briefly mentioned I believe it was when Ishtar was re-captured & speaking with the Marduk Emulator Priestess chick. There's a bit of dialogue about how the Marduk were once like humans who had a conflict with the Zentradi, but instead of adapting them into their own culture, dominated them instead. I may be getting that mixed up with an Ingus scene, but I'm pretty sure that's what was said.

No, they discuss the whole "dominant culture" philosophy if I remember correctly, but no explanations were actually offered at any time (a notable plot hole in the series that I suspect was meant to be filled if the show lasted longer).

The major problems with II aren't just how it doesn't gel with the after Nue cannon, but also how it fails to mesh with TV, DYRL, FB 2012, or any combination of the 3.

The only areas where it really doesn't gel with Nue universe (at that time) are FB2012 and the lack of any cloning technology that was present during both the series and the movie. That may have been a creative choice by the producers, nothing is really known about that at the moment.

The U.N. Spacy's rampant use of Zentradi ships as building materials flies in the face of the reconstruction we'd seen going on.

Well by the end of the series we only know of one city fully built the rest appear to be smaller towns, so the reconstruction was only just beginning by the end of the series..

The "Boobytrap" didn't exist in DYRL, which II supposedly takes after, and as such the mis-firing of the cannon when the Marduk enter orbit really doesn't make sense. Hell, even if the Boobytrap had occurred, it was fixed early on in Macros TV, and should the problem have arisen again, sure as hell would have been fixed within 80 years. It's just not a good idea to have a beam weapon randmly discharing in a theme park!

That was a bad idea to be sure and completely not necessary considering the sophistication of the early warning system in the show.

There are almost fewer Zentradi in Macross II's future than there are in post Macross Robotech. The Themepark too is a bit troubling, since DYRL's depiction of Earth after being rained down upon was so tore up it's doubtful those stone artifacts would have survived where steel buildings did not.

The Zentreadi populations appear to be completely micronized and integrated into society by the time of the story, so the populations of giants in the Nue universe do not seem to exist in Mac II universe, until encountered with the Marduk.

I always understood the "artifacts" were recreations so as to preserve the history of what once existed, not the actual structures.

But the biggest problem of Macross II was completely re-using DYRL's scene struction & base story, without having a pre-exisitng fleshed out TV series to rely on.

We've already duked it out over that little dismissive about story structure before and I am not going to re-argue the same points again...

[DestroidDefender]

I think you guys have thoroughly enlightened me on the subject. Thanks and good night.

[Ginrai]

Just because Macross II doesn't specifically mention something does not mean it did not happen. Maybe there is cloning, maybe there isn't. Maybe there is extra solar colonization, maybe there isn't. It's not specifically stated one way or another, and anyway, is cloning or colonization mentioned at the end of DYRL? Nooo. And Macross II was supposed to be a sequel to DYRL.

Keith, we have been over this before, but there's nothing in DYRL that says that can't use can't use salvaged Zentradi ships as building materials, the Macross firing its cannon into space is NOT identified as a booby trap in Macross II (it's something about excess energy building up and firing off periodically, and while it's not something that appears anywhere else, it's not really explained either, so who knows where they were going with that), and just because you don't see colonization doesn't mean it's not there, and anyway, DYRL doesn't mention colonization at all, and if you want FB2012 to be in between DYRL and Macross II, who is to say they didn't send colony fleets out 70 years ago? There's nothing in Macross II that says that DIDN'T happen. There's nothing that says it did. It is simply not addressed. Just because you do not see something does not mean it's not there.

The number of Zentradi left around is a total non-sequitor and has nothing to do with anything. In fact, I think DYRL supports having less Zentradi around, because at the end of the movie, Britai says they are going to go hunt down some of the millions of other Zentradi fleets cruising around the universe or something like that.

As for culture park, I always assumed it was like Disneyland or whatever and it was not authentic so much as a history lesson. DYRL is pretty clear that most of the world is burned beyond recognition, much worse than in the TV show. Of course they were using Zentradi ships to rebuild and I think 70 years is plenty of time to build some mock-ups of monuments of the past to educate the post-war youth.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Ginrai

[Zinjo]

Just because Macross II doesn't specifically mention something does not mean it did not happen. Maybe there is cloning, maybe there isn't. Maybe there is extra solar colonization, maybe there isn't. It's not specifically stated one way or another, and anyway, is cloning or colonization mentioned at the end of DYRL? Nooo. And Macross II was supposed to be a sequel to DYRL.

If there was indeed a cloning program, there certainly wasn't much of it or the majority of the population did not live on the war ravaged Earth. This may track if one considers the size of the average Zentreadi cruiser and how many more microns could man such a ship as compared to the giants, since we are given no indication that any giants remain in the Earth's system.

I have an old issue of Newtype magazine that features Mac II and has line art showing the landscape of the series. The total population of Earth appeared to be situated in approximately 10 cities on an Eastern coastal area that may or may not be North America.

Hardly the same amount of Earth based population as shown in the Nue universe of Mac Plus, which appears to have re-populated the Earth as if no war ever occured..

Edited March 14, 2007 by Zinjo

[Lonewolf]

If there was indeed a cloning program, there certainly wasn't much of it or the majority of the population did not live on the war ravaged Earth. This may track if one considers the size of the average Zentreadi cruiser and how many more microns could man such a ship as compared to the giants, since we are given no indication that any giants remain in the Earth's system

....snip...

Well during the moon festival, we can clearly see some full size Zentraedis in the audience. So some of them MUST be left in the Sol system.

[Zinjo]

Well during the moon festival, we can clearly see some full size Zentraedis in the audience. So some of them MUST be left in the Sol system.

Hmmm, I don't remember that.

Now I'll have to re-watch that part to find them....

[Ginrai]

It's perfectly possible the low earth population is a result of everyone being off in colonies god knows where, or on fleets out hunting remaining, uncultured Zentradi, for that matter, to follow DYRL's lead.

[sketchley]

Hardly the same amount of Earth based population as shown in the Nue universe of Mac Plus, which appears to have re-populated the Earth as if no war ever occured..

Uhm... no.

What little of Earth* we do see is mostly in Macross Plus. Of that, it is mostly crater filled wasteland, with only a few megapolises. In fact, we only see two large cities, and a few small settlements; which may or may not be suburbs or offshoots of the large cities. This is definitely not indicitive of Earth having been repopulated, and the effects of the war erased.

An image of Earth as seen in Macross Plus:

Evidence of SWI is hardly erased, and the lack of cities or settlements is painfully obvious.

* As DYRL and Flashback 2012 are considered cannon to both versions, I'm only focusing on the differences that crop up later.

[Zinjo]

Uhm... no.

What little of Earth* we do see is mostly in Macross Plus. Of that, it is mostly crater filled wasteland, with only a few megapolises. In fact, we only see two large cities, and a few small settlements; which may or may not be suburbs or offshoots of the large cities. This is definitely not indicitive of Earth having been repopulated, and the effects of the war erased.

An image of Earth as seen in Macross Plus:

Evidence of SWI is hardly erased, and the lack of cities or settlements is painfully obvious.

* As DYRL and Flashback 2012 are considered cannon to both versions, I'm only focusing on the differences that crop up later.

I stand corrected. I mistook the megalopolises as being indicative of the whole planet.

Thanks for the screenie for clarification.

[Valkyrie addict]

woa, never noticed how those drones that the X-9 ghost destroys resemble a lot to the YF-19...expensive drones, huh?

[azrael]

woa, never noticed how those drones that the X-9 ghost destroys resemble a lot to the YF-19...expensive drones, huh?

Actually, they resemble VF-11s.

[Sumdumgai]

Actually if you look closely, they're retooled VF-11 drones. The body shape is the same with different canards. They even have the VF-11 fast-pack back boosters.

It was forshadowing of things to come in M7 I love the VF-11.

Didn't the timeline included in the Macross VFX2 manual classify MII as Alternate Universe as well?

edit: Azrael beat me to it.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Sumdumgai

[Zinjo]

I was mistaken the landscape of the Earth had quite a few cities in the Mac II universe

After looking at it again it would appear that Spacy headquarters may have been built on the ruins of the submerged city!

Edited March 16, 2007 by Zinjo

[DestroidDefender]

If you look at just Mac II and Mac+ as seen on screen, and discount other secondary sources, I'm satisfied that MacII could have been fit into the canon Macross timeline if the producers had wanted it.

Most of the alleged contradictions are pretty subjective and based mainly on outside sources. Negative arguments are just plain silly. We didn't see the MacZero 'Flying Rocks' in any other series and it's chronologically first - does that make SDF, Mac+ and Mac7 non-canon?

A lot can change in 70 years - landscapes, city plans, the importance of cloning and emigration. If you've got a million+ Zentraedi ships I say use them in your fleet, build arcologies out of them, etc.

It's non-canon, but I never could see why. I'm 100% sure now it's just spite and there is no real reason it could not have been part of the timeline.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I would prefer it be alternate universe anyway as opposed to part of the original macross universe. Like how you can interpret Do You Remember Love as a mythological retelling of an event from other people's point of view.

Do you Remember Love wouldn't make sense if it was canon events. Minmay in the tv series created her "My boyfriend is a pilot" song from her experience meeting hikaru. But in DYRL she could be singing about ANY boyfriend who happened to be a pilot. (she was stuck aboard a ship with pilots so the possibility could be there if you never saw the tv series) At the start of the movie she hasn't even met hikaru yet and she is singing that song. So hikaru can't be the boyfriend she is singing about in her song.

Macross II can just "stand alone" as a story by itself like DYRL did. Why the need to link it to every other thing created in the macross universe? Can't the various tv series and movies and ova's be considered seperate universes but different ways of telling the same event? (assuming the timelines overlap. I'm not talking about ova or a movie which is deliberately made to be a continuation from something else but more the type of ova or movie that overlap or contradict the earlier version of a story or where plans are going to be made for a future ova tv series or movie that will overlap when they eventually come.)

Edited March 16, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[eugimon]

If you look at just Mac II and Mac+ as seen on screen, and discount other secondary sources, I'm satisfied that MacII could have been fit into the canon Macross timeline if the producers had wanted it.

Most of the alleged contradictions are pretty subjective and based mainly on outside sources. Negative arguments are just plain silly. We didn't see the MacZero 'Flying Rocks' in any other series and it's chronologically first - does that make SDF, Mac+ and Mac7 non-canon?

A lot can change in 70 years - landscapes, city plans, the importance of cloning and emigration. If you've got a million+ Zentraedi ships I say use them in your fleet, build arcologies out of them, etc.

It's non-canon, but I never could see why. I'm 100% sure now it's just spite and there is no real reason it could not have been part of the timeline.

the reason behind the flying rocks tie into what's disclosed in mac 7 and the APHOS ties into the protoculture city in DYRL (that protoculture was on earth and messed around with our genes).... so no, it's not a continuity buster.

again, mac II is so far in the future that anyone can justify anything they see there... stuff like, why the macross is in a theme park (they moved it), why the valks look the way they do (maybe nostalgia is big in 2080?). Mac II just takes the basic themes of macross and gives it a a good shine and make over. There's nothing to build on the existing story, nothing that explains the backstory, it doesn't even do a very good job of explaining its own story.

Anyways, I don't think anyone is even arguing that it shouldn't belong anymore, looks like most people are interested in the differences between mac+ and macII... which is also kind of silly because again.. there's a 40 year gap between when those two events are supposed to take place.

[Keith]

Macross II & Plus don't even remotely fit well together. Look how advanced the U.N. Spacy is in Plus, then look at II, the spacy of the time looks ass backwards by comparison.

-No reaction weapons

-No Fold boosters

-No Pinpoint barriers equipped fighters

-No Earth defense network

-Macross II's Macross has TV colors, which doesn't exist in any continuity but its own

-The Bridge in II is more similar to the TV bridge than the DYRL bridge

-YF-19/YF-21 far outclass the VF-2J, VF-2SS, & Metal Siren.

-Leg & ARMD cannons????

-Eden was one of many relatively close proximity colonies, don't you think said colonies would have detected the Marduk approach, alterted Earth, & sent backup?

-Hologram technology in II isn't even remotely up to Plus's level.

There's just no way you can pay attention to any Macross TV series or movie, then try to say II fits in well with it. That's like trying to stick Gundam Wing into UC, it just doesn't work...unless you go by the millenia passing Turn-A Bang theory, but that's a whole other matter.

As for Zero, the Protoculture artifacts on Mayan are very similar to those seen in 7 & Dynamite, so yes, the flying rocks do fit in.

[JB0]

Macross II & Plus don't even remotely fit well together. Look how advanced the U.N. Spacy is in Plus, then look at II, the spacy of the time looks ass backwards by comparison.

Mind if I play devil's advocate for a moment?

I think some of these CAN be poked at.

It's been a LONG time since I've seen Mac2, so I can't take TOO good of a shot at this, but...

-No reaction weapons

UN Spacey is historically hesitant to use them, even when they have a ready supply on hand. Max had to call home on the other side of the galaxy in Macross 7 to get authorization to use them against the protodevlin.

An enemy that had ALREADY proven itself capable of destroying entire planets, and according to zentradi history destroyed a supremely advanced civilization spanning most of a galaxy, was a controversial target. If that doesn't justify a well-placed nuke, then I don't know what does.

It's entirely possible they have reaction weapons and just won't consider them, or that their entire nuclear arsenal has been phased out by Mac2.

-No Fold boosters

-No Pinpoint barriers equipped fighters

What if they actually evolved the technology to the point where the barrier only activates right at the moment of impact, conserving the vehicle's energy resources by minimizing the barrier time? It'd LOOK like there weren't any barrier disks, but they WOULD be there. It's also a logical upgrade.

We already know the PPB isn't invulnerable, so cannon-fodder fatalities don't really contradict this idea. They just imply that the Marduk weapons overpower the barrier disks.

Admittedly, this is stacking assumptions, but most VFs tend to suffer from firecracker syndrome regardless of their official durability.

-No Earth defense network

Perhaps it was never rebuilt after Macross Plus? Guld and Isamu proved it to be somewhat ineffective. And Sharon proved it to be a serious security risk.

(At least, it's a serious security risk if you go installing un-inspected foreign computers in the heart of your defensive computer network... MacPlus' sysadmin should be shot. Or the politician that over-rode his objections.)

-Macross II's Macross has TV colors, which doesn't exist in any continuity but its own

Fresh coat of paint? It wouldn't be the first time the Macross got overhauled between franchise entries, and the ship ended DYRL in need of some major work anyways.

(It ended the TV series in even worse shape, but Plus clearly establishes that refit as the DYRL design).

-The Bridge in II is more similar to the TV bridge than the DYRL bridge

See above refit argument.

-YF-19/YF-21 far outclass the VF-2J, VF-2SS, & Metal Siren.

-Leg & ARMD cannons????

Refit.

Arguably even a useful one, since it increased the size of ship you could successfully ream, and it's unknown how long the Macross was a major part of the Earth's defense before the Macross Cannon ships were operational(the additional guns indicates it WAS a major part).

-Eden was one of many relatively close proximity colonies, don't you think said colonies would have detected the Marduk approach, alterted Earth, & sent backup?

Only if the Marduk approached from EXACTLY the right direction. Space is vast, and it's REALLY easy to miss someone, unless you're expecting them and know EXACTLY where to look. Needle in a haystack doesn't even begin to cover it. Maybe needle in a planet...

-Hologram technology in II isn't even remotely up to Plus's level.

There's just no way you can pay attention to any Macross TV series or movie, then try to say II fits in well with it. That's like trying to stick Gundam Wing into UC, it just doesn't work...unless you go by the millenia passing Turn-A Bang theory, but that's a whole other matter.

Turn-A proves Macross is part of Gundam!11111

[sketchley]

It's non-canon, but I never could see why. I'm 100% sure now it's just spite and there is no real reason it could not have been part of the timeline.

The big reason, and I'm not sure that it's been mentioned yet, and it probably should be considered the ONLY reason, is the limitations on creative freedom that Macross II puts on the creative people behind successive Macross productions.

Removing Macross II gave (continues to give?) the creative people behind Macross Plus, 7, Dynamite, 7 Movie, and (possibly) the new series/production a clean slate.* A clean slate is what any creative person wants. Kawamori Shouji's "I haven't seen it," may be a white lie - but I genuinely think that he hasn't; so as to keep the Studio Nue view uncompromised and not effected by the stuff in Macross II. Complete creative freedom.

*I'm excluding Zero because it is deliberately set in an era contained within both Studio Nue cannon and Big West Cannon. Despite the spiritia, Protoculture, and Protodevlin references and extrapolations contained within it, the events of the series could not fundementally alter what followed it; SDF:M, DYRL, and Flashback 2012.

[Zinjo]

Removing Macross II gave (continues to give?) the creative people behind Macross Plus, 7, Dynamite, 7 Movie, and (possibly) the new series/production a clean slate.* A clean slate is what any creative person wants. Kawamori Shouji's "I haven't seen it," may be a white lie - but I genuinely think that he hasn't; so as to keep the Studio Nue view uncompromised and not effected by the stuff in Macross II. Complete creative freedom.

Well that's probably the best explanation yet as to why there was a perpendicular departure from what was done in Mac II. When your future is already set it does indeed limit your creative options...

I am fairly convinced SK has seen Mac II, why wouldn't he? It's the whole curiousity thing.

It also raised the question as to the origins of the mind control idea. Was it copied or what it always that way (Keith don't bother answering we already know your position on this one ) since the PD and their involvement with the SA was not brought into the Nue continuity until after the release of Mac II... No doubt the debate will rage on....

[kensei]

I am fairly convinced SK has seen Mac II, why wouldn't he? It's the whole curiousity thing.

Not really. Personally, I'm curious about the Lord of the Rings movies, but I haven't made time to see them yet. Can't be bothered when I have time either.

[Zinjo]

Not really. Personally, I'm curious about the Lord of the Rings movies, but I haven't made time to see them yet. Can't be bothered when I have time either.

If you wrote the books, you'd be curious....

[sketchley]

Again -> see Kensei's post + my speculations on Kawamori Shouji's motivations of why not to see it. Please also keep in mind that kawamori Shouji's a busy guy, and is in high demand. I doubt that he wants to *waste* his free time watching similar anime to what he does at work when he can do something else. I, and I'm sure many other members of MW, along with those at Studio Nue, leave work at the workplace.

Zinjo's speculations kind of also confirms my suspicions why Kawamori may never say that he has seen it, as it brings up the whole arguement about Studio Nue being unimaginative, and copying other people's ideas.

[Warmaker]

If you wrote the books, you'd be curious....

Just like George Lucas and all the Star Wars EU Books?

The "honcho" of a franchise does not need to read into every creation not made by him or his core people. He / She has bigger things on mind to produce a show. Like George Lucas, he can literally throw everything away said by the "EU" if it gets in the way of his movie / his main production.

Even though Macross II was made before other notable Macross shows, the feeling of contradiction it presents moves it out of continuity.

[Zinjo]

Just like George Lucas and all the Star Wars EU Books?

The "honcho" of a franchise does not need to read into every creation not made by him or his core people. He / She has bigger things on mind to produce a show. Like George Lucas, he can literally throw everything away said by the "EU" if it gets in the way of his movie / his main production.

Even though Macross II was made before other notable Macross shows, the feeling of contradiction it presents moves it out of continuity.

Let's keep in mind that Macross was the last thing SK wanted to be doing in 1992, he had a brilliant idea about test pilots and was shopping that around. If BigWest revisited a show that you essentially divorced yourself from you may very well watch it to see someone else's vision.

If you were to get involved in the show again, naturally you'd ensure that your version was very different from someone else's vision, particularly if it limited your creativity in future stories.

I would, it is a natural progression.

In order to not have to answer questions about comparisons or accusations of copying, you'd never publically admit to seeing it and that also insulates you from any commentary on it, in light of the fact that your own sponsor owns that production as well. It simply makes common sense to me that he'd never admit to it so long as he is involved in doing Macross productions.

[SpacyAce2012]

-YF-19/YF-21 far outclass the VF-2J, VF-2SS, & Metal Siren.

I'm going to have to disagree in part with this. The VF-2SS SAPs were packing a hellacious amount of firepower. Judging from what I see when watching the two series, the SAPs appear to be packing considerable more punch than the Macross Plus prototypes.

And the Metal Siren seems to possess far more anti-capital ship capabilities, than any other VF in Macross. And, apparently, without having to resort to reaction weaponry.

[Keith]

The mind control implemented in II & 7 are completely different. II's uses stimuli for pre-programmed results, and 7's is more akin to a persona swap. If you didn't want a response, you shouldn't have brought it up.

No reaction weapons

UN Spacey is historically hesitant to use them, even when they have a ready supply on hand. Max had to call home on the other side of the galaxy in Macross 7 to get authorization to use them against the protodevlin.

An enemy that had ALREADY proven itself capable of destroying entire planets, and according to zentradi history destroyed a supremely advanced civilization spanning most of a galaxy, was a controversial target. If that doesn't justify a well-placed nuke, then I don't know what does.

It's entirely possible they have reaction weapons and just won't consider them, or that their entire nuclear arsenal has been phased out by Mac2.

Whenever the U.N. Spacy was backed into a life or death situation, they never hesistated to use them. Hell, they were the first thing that were busted out when it was first decied to fight the Zentradi. Besides which, it'd be much more logical to start using reaction weapons than to send up an underpowered vastly understaffed Macross!

We already know the PPB isn't invulnerable, so cannon-fodder fatalities don't really contradict this idea. They just imply that the Marduk weapons overpower the barrier disks.

Admittedly, this is stacking assumptions, but most VFs tend to suffer from firecracker syndrome regardless of their official durability.

Even an assumption would require something to at least hint at the idea. Fact is barrier technology isn't present at all in Macross II. Omni, Pinpoint, or otherwise.

Perhaps it was never rebuilt after Macross Plus? Guld and Isamu proved it to be somewhat ineffective. And Sharon proved it to be a serious security risk.

(At least, it's a serious security risk if you go installing un-inspected foreign computers in the heart of your defensive computer network... MacPlus' sysadmin should be shot. Or the politician that over-rode his objections.)

It was never destroyed, Guld & Isamu just made their own small hole in it.

Fresh coat of paint? It wouldn't be the first time the Macross got overhauled between franchise entries, and the ship ended DYRL in need of some major work anyways.

(It ended the TV series in even worse shape, but Plus clearly establishes that refit as the DYRL design).

Actually, Flash Back 2012 establishes that the TV ship was refit into the DYRL design. This leads to my next response.

-Leg & ARMD cannons????

Refit.

Arguably even a useful one, since it increased the size of ship you could successfully ream, and it's unknown how long the Macross was a major part of the Earth's defense before the Macross Cannon ships were operational(the additional guns indicates it WAS a major part).

The overall Implication was that the Macross was something that hadn't been used in quite a while. While a refit including said features could be possible, one would think that said refit would include an upgrade that wouldn't destroy itself while being fired. Unless we're also to believe that siad refit was contracted out by cheap untrained Zentradi labor who took the money figuring the cannon would never need to be fired, and as such no one would notice their half-assed blow up in your face work.

-The Bridge in II is more similar to the TV bridge than the DYRL bridge

See above refit argument.

-Refits usually lead to improvements, not regressions

Only if the Marduk approached from EXACTLY the right direction. Space is vast, and it's REALLY easy to miss someone, unless you're expecting them and know EXACTLY where to look. Needle in a haystack doesn't even begin to cover it. Maybe needle in a planet...

That still wouldn't account for the lack of backup.

Turn-A proves Macross is part of Gundam!11111

Max does have Newtype qualities....

I'm going to have to disagree in part with this. The VF-2SS SAPs were packing a hellacious amount of firepower. Judging from what I see when watching the two series, the SAPs appear to be packing considerable more punch than the Macross Plus prototypes.

And the Metal Siren seems to possess far more anti-capital ship capabilities, than any other VF in Macross. And, apparently, without having to resort to reaction weaponry.

To be fair, the only battleship we see the YF-19/YF-21 come close to engaging is the Macross, and that's already after an extended battle depleting ordinence. While the SAP's pack beam cannons, so did hte strike pack's on the VF-1's. claiming any mecha in 2 performed even half as well as the 19 & 21 in Plus is just silly.

[JB0]

The mind control implemented in II & 7 are completely different. II's uses stimuli for pre-programmed results, and 7's is more akin to a persona swap. If you didn't want a response, you shouldn't have brought it up.

So it's Mac+ mind control?

Whenever the U.N. Spacy was backed into a life or death situation, they never hesistated to use them. Hell, they were the first thing that were busted out when it was first decied to fight the Zentradi. Besides which, it'd be much more logical to start using reaction weapons than to send up an underpowered vastly understaffed Macross!

They WERE the first thing fired in the original series... and were subsequently hoarded until the final battle of the Space War.

The transformation and Daedalus attack could've both been skipped entirely if they'd just thrown a few nukes at the zents when the cannon broke.

And logic and reaction weapons don't seem to go together. Like I said, they should've been lobbing nukes at the protodevlin for some time in 7. Instead they shot ONE bomb AFTER exhausting all other options(including a dangerous stunt where they used Sound Force to restrain a protodevlin so they could hit it with the cannon). And they had to call across the galaxy to get authorization for THAT.

The overall Implication was that the Macross was something that hadn't been used in quite a while. While a refit including said features could be possible, one would think that said refit would include an upgrade that wouldn't destroy itself while being fired. Unless we're also to believe that siad refit was contracted out by cheap untrained Zentradi labor who took the money figuring the cannon would never need to be fired, and as such no one would notice their half-assed blow up in your face work.

The refit could've been done at some point in the past, when the Macross WAS durable enough to withstand it. Then the ship rotted away sitting in a puddle until it couldn't be fired anymore. Then they tried to fire it again anyways in 2.

-Refits usually lead to improvements, not regressions

I always thought the SDF bridge was better than DYRL's, aside from the low-tech look. The DYRL one has a seriously cluttered feel IMO. But that's just my take.

[Zinjo]

The mind control implemented in II & 7 are completely different. II's uses stimuli for pre-programmed results, and 7's is more akin to a persona swap. If you didn't want a response, you shouldn't have brought it up.

You make it sound like I wasn't expecting you to comment regardless of what I said.... I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Anyway, there is no evidence, printed or otherwise as to how the PD employed mind control, only that they did and what broke their mind control effect were anima spiritia powers.

In Mac II, non-emulator song only confused the mind controlled Zentreadi. Now it really wasn't clearly shown whether Ishtar's final love song actually broke the mind control over the Zentreadi or simply changed the their focus.

Even an assumption would require something to at least hint at the idea. Fact is barrier technology isn't present at all in Macross II. Omni, Pinpoint, or otherwise.

There is. The Metal Siren's lance uses a pinpoint barrier to slice into ship hulls, it is also fitted with what appears to be a barrier overload weapon that has the same effects as the Macross' barrier overload in Burst Point. Both barrier weapons allow it to infiltrate a capital ship and blow it up from the inside out.

The overall Implication was that the Macross was something that hadn't been used in quite a while. While a refit including said features could be possible, one would think that said refit would include an upgrade that wouldn't destroy itself while being fired. Unless we're also to believe that siad refit was contracted out by cheap untrained Zentradi labor who took the money figuring the cannon would never need to be fired, and as such no one would notice their half-assed blow up in your face work.

It never destroyed itself while being fired. The ARMD platforms were wrecked and apparently disabled the whole system. Considering the canon had not been fired in an apparent long time and the level of corrosion, even firing the thing was a dangerous and desperate act. They bought into Ishar's belief that it had super powers of some kind. Clearly it didn't.

To be fair, the only battleship we see the YF-19/YF-21 come close to engaging is the Macross, and that's already after an extended battle depleting ordinence. While the SAP's pack beam cannons, so did hte strike pack's on the VF-1's. claiming any mecha in 2 performed even half as well as the 19 & 21 in Plus is just silly.

The VF-2's "SAP" used a Rail Gun (much more effective over long range), long range and mini-missiles as well as AAB's or Squire automated attack drones (which never saw enough screen time IMO). They never had beam weapons, the only fighter that did was the Metal Siren, which packed some serious firepower for a fighter.

Unless we were to compare the specs and capabilities of both sets of fighters It's pointless to present anyone's opinion as fact... Then there is the factor that the Nue universe fighters are more role specific while the Mac II fighters are more combat theater specific. With the exception of the Metal Siren.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

Hold yer horses. Reaction Weapons = nuclear bombs, and in Japan (and hopefully the rest of the world!) there is a stigma against their use.

http://macross.anime.net/story/encyclopedi...apon/index.html

THIS article explains why there is a lack of reaction weapon use in Macross. It's not so much in-series tactics, but tactics in the real world to allow Macross production to be viewed and to continue being produced.

Uhm... Zinjo, we already went over the VF thing a page or so back. Studio Nue VFs are both role specific AND combat theatre specific. VF-4 = space optimized, VF-5000 = atmospheric optimized.

Anyhow, sidestepping this depate (topic for another thread, IMHO) the VFs in Macross II have one fatal flaw - lack of internal weapons bays and missile launchers. Yes, the Metal Siren has them, but it's a prototype. By 2012, the VF-4 had conformally mounted missiles (a VF common to both timelines.) The VF-5000 had internal missile launchers by 2020. Internal weapons bays came into existance with the VF-14 in 2028.

Those dates are all when they had a first flight/entered mass production. Designing started in 2005, 2011, and 2025 respectedly.

Anyhow, Zinjo, Keith was presenting facts.

Fact: the only battleship we see the YF-19/YF-21 come close to engaging is the Macross, and that's already after an extended battle depleting ordinence. (Macross Plus)

Fact: The VF-2S's FAST pack has a beam cannons, so too does the VF-1 strike FAST pack. (DYRL)

Fact: Macross II VFs are never seen travelling from surface to orbit under their own power, nor do they appear to be able to enter combat without attachements (FAST packs and/or missile pods.) Macross Plus has the YF-19 and 21 doing those. (Macross Plus)

[JB0]

Hold yer horses. Reaction Weapons = nuclear bombs, and in Japan (and hopefully the rest of the world!) there is a stigma against their use.

http://macross.anime.net/story/encyclopedi...apon/index.html

THIS article explains why there is a lack of reaction weapon use in Macross. It's not so much in-series tactics, but tactics in the real world to allow Macross production to be viewed and to continue being produced.

Oh, I understand WHY. And I know that Japan's a tad touchier than everyone else, what with being the only nation they've been used on.

It's still a tad silly in-story.

Remember, this is in the middle of space. There's nothing to irradiate.

...

Except during Operation Stargazer. And rendering a portion of an (almost) uninhabited planet uninhabitable(especially an underground cavern) is a small price to pay for the extermination of a highly antagonistic group capable of destroying all life in the galaxy.

But it also raises a serious question... If the reaction weapons are an escalation BEYOND the Battle 7's cannon(which is presumably more powerful than the original Macross' cannon, and that demonstrated a silly power level in the boobytrap firing)... exactly how powerful ARE overtech nukes?

[Zinjo]

Anyhow, Zinjo, Keith was presenting facts.

Fact: the only battleship we see the YF-19/YF-21 come close to engaging is the Macross, and that's already after an extended battle depleting ordinence. (Macross Plus)

Fact: The VF-2S's FAST pack has a beam cannons, so too does the VF-1 strike FAST pack. (DYRL)

In B-Club magazine June '92 the SAP's large gun is described as a Large Rail gun, NOT a beam cannon. Therefore that "fact" is not a fact at all.

The animators got the look right since an actual rail gun would propel a projectile so fast it would appear to look like a plasma burst.

Someone actually did some homework on the subject before animating it.

http://www.powerlabs.org/images/shotstrip.jpg (An experimental Rail gun shot)

Which begs the question why didn't Studio Nue consider using railgun technology as opposed to the traditional chemically fired projectiles? They allow more ammo to be carried in the weapon, they fire at outrageous speeds (up to 4000+m/s) and in space would have extremely long range. I guess only they would have that answer...

Fact: Macross II VFs are never seen travelling from surface to orbit under their own power, nor do they appear to be able to enter combat without attachements (FAST packs and/or missile pods.)Macross Plus has the YF-19 and 21 doing those. (Macross Plus)

Hardly a "fact" since whether they can or cannot has never been established. It's like saying the VF-1 could never go into combat without it's fast packs because it is never seen doing so in DYRL. Such an assumption based on a lack of known data does not constitute a "fact". Same goes for the atmospheric flight. We don't see it therefore claiming something as fact without evidence is actually called "speculation" or a "guess".

However, my post is about correcting inaccuracies, not about comparing the two sets of fighters because I simply don't care who's dick is bigger....

Edited March 18, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

(...) I simply don't care who's dick is bigger....

Is this kind of comment really necessary?

Of the many things it says about you, I read it as: why bother trying to have an intelligent discussion with you. Enjoy the solitude.

[Mr March]

Hardly a "fact" since whether they can or cannot has never been established. It's like saying the VF-1 could never go into combat without it's fast packs because it is never seen doing so in DYRL. Such an assumption based on a lack of known data does not constitute a "fact". Same goes for the atmospheric flight. We don't see it therefore claiming something as fact without evidence is actually called "speculation" or a "guess".

However, my post is about correcting inaccuracies, not about comparing the two sets of fighters because I simply don't care who's dick is bigger....

Well said Zinjo. Writing profiles for the M3, I've found this little rule a very useful policy to embrace. Though, the speculation attempting to reconcile Macross II to the Macross-proper universe goes beyond anything I'd agree with, I will agree with you that it is important to monitor one's perceptions of what can and can't be in the Macross universe, lest we run into RPG-like "conclusions"

Edited March 18, 2007 by Mr March

[Mr March]

But it also raises a serious question... If the reaction weapons are an escalation BEYOND the Battle 7's cannon(which is presumably more powerful than the original Macross' cannon, and that demonstrated a silly power level in the boobytrap firing)... exactly how powerful ARE overtech nukes?

That's a good question. Since OverTechnology is more advanced than any human technology, it's safe to assume that reaction weaponry is far more destructive than conventional nuclear weapons. Or, at our most skeptical, that OverTechnology reaction weapons have a far greater destructive potential than conventional nuclear weapons, but aren't always utilized to their maximum destructive capability. It's possible that efficiency plays a big role in OverTechnology and thus perhaps reaction weapons simply have far greater reactant fissioning percentages rather than yields being all that bigger.

Having said that, there aren't many examples in Macross that show reaction weapons doing something with a yield any greater than that which is possible using current technology. The best example using reaction missiles is the final battle with the Bodol Zer Fleet in which the Macross destroys the Fulbtzs-Berrentzs with a hundred or more reaction warheads. In order to destroy a 1,400 kilometer object, you'd need plenty of firepower. As a comparison, the Hiroshima Bomb was roughly 15 kilotons and it affected just one city. Obviously, the Zentradi Flagship is much larger and more massive than the Japanese Islands because of it's width and depth, so even a hundred or more kiloton yield weapons wouldn't be enough to destroy it. Likely, we'd be looking at individual yields in the high megaton or even gigaton range assuming 100-200 missiles launched from the Macross. These weapon yields would be beyond our current capabilites.

The biggest example of firepower in Macross still remains the SDF-1 Macross cannon and by extension, that means all Zentradi Quiltra-Quelamitz Class Medium-Scale Gunboats and Meltrandi Medium Scale Gunboats possess the same maximum destructive potential (as well as the Film Version of Britai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs command ship). There were a few fans online that did actual calculations for the effect of the SDF-1 Macross cannon based on it's firing in Episode 1 "Booby Trap." Depending upon the assumptions made, the calculations for the vaporization of the mountain range of South Ataria Island, the ocean the beam blasted through and then the two Zentradi pickets the beam destroyed some 280,000 kilometers away lead to explosive yields in the high gigaton to low teraton range. Might be able to find them with a google search, but I assume these numbers are pretty much what you're looking for anyway.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Mr March