Macross II Why not Canon?

[DestroidDefender]

I keep hearing the Mac II is not canon. I'd like to know why but first I'll state my position:

I don't accept SK's non-involvement as justification for it's non-canon status.

Dislike of characters plot etc. also doesn't disqualify it.

The model number of Valkyries doesn't do it for me either. F-101s served in the air force long before F-16s.

What exactly about Mac-II makes it "impossible" for the story to be part of the canon along with Mac+ and Mac7?

[eugimon]

so... if I were to produce a star wars movie, without the approval of lucas, you would accept it as canon? is that what you're saying? let's say I place the movie between ep 3 and 4... and let's say I include scenes that completely contradict events in ep 4. you would still accept this right?

[valk1j]

For one thing the new songs in Mac 2 would have been sung almost 40 years earlier in Mac 7.

[mister_e]

so... if I were to produce a star wars movie, without the approval of lucas, you would accept it as canon? is that what you're saying? let's say I place the movie between ep 3 and 4... and let's say I include scenes that completely contradict events in ep 4. you would still accept this right?

I see your point, but its not quite the same. MacII is still a Big West production, its just that SK wasn't involved. For your example to be more applicable, you would have to have produced the new movie with the consent/backing from Lucas Arts but without the involvement of George himself.

[Sdf-1]

without the involvement of George himself.

That sounds good to me...

[eugimon]

I see your point, but its not quite the same. MacII is still a Big West production, its just that SK wasn't involved. For your example to be more applicable, you would have to have produced the new movie with the consent/backing from Lucas Arts but without the involvement of George himself.

good point. actually, now that I think about it, the star wars comics and books are like this. they're supposed to take place in the same universe and have introduced all sorts of things... things that lucas uses or disregards at whim in his movies. So what is canon and what is not? the books that preceeded the prequels but are contradicted in the movies? Or the movies, that the creator of the universe makes?

Granted, Kawamori wasn't the singular creator of macross in the way lucas is with star wars... but he is the defacto figurehead for the series.

[mister_e]

good point. actually, now that I think about it, the star wars comics and books are like this. they're supposed to take place in the same universe and have introduced all sorts of things... things that lucas uses or disregards at whim in his movies. So what is canon and what is not? the books that preceeded the prequels but are contradicted in the movies? Or the movies, that the creator of the universe makes?

Granted, Kawamori wasn't the singular creator of macross in the way lucas is with star wars... but he is the defacto figurehead for the series.

You're exactly right about the SW books and comics. They get the blessing of Lucas Arts, but they are not considered canon. George Lucas has said that the only things that are canon are the movies. I'm guessing the upcoming TV series will be considered canon since he is involved, but I'm not certain.

[Valkyrie addict]

Macross II was made to try and exploit the success of DYRL, but since it was made without any input from the original creators, the writers got too creative and made some extreme changes that contradicted or made no sense with the original, after it turn out to be a major flop, and Kawamori planing to go back to the Macross franchise, seeing that Macross II made absolutely no sense with what he was planning to implement and really really sucked, he decided to make it as an alternate universe to the original, or to be consider a fictional movie within the Macross universe

[Sorata]

You're exactly right about the SW books and comics. They get the blessing of Lucas Arts, but they are not considered canon. George Lucas has said that the only things that are canon are the movies. I'm guessing the upcoming TV series will be considered canon since he is involved, but I'm not certain.

Lucas also made Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic for Xbox is canon (Kotor I atleast he didnt say this about Kotor II) also the new upcoming Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 game Star Wars Unleashed is canon he is personally working on that game and it fits the gap between episode 3 and 4. But yeah Macross II isnt canon.

[Mr March]

Each franchise has a different policy on what is canon and what is not. You'd have to look at each one individually rather than trying to make a Star Wars analogy to Macross.

As for Macross, I thought Macross II was part of the franchise. I know it's level of importance was taken out of the primary history of established events, but it's still an official production isn't it? Or is Macross II something designated as "official" while only the Kawamori/Studio Nue stuff has the honor of being considered "canon" Macross?

[eugimon]

Each franchise has a different policy on what is canon and what is not. You'd have to look at each one individually rather than trying to make a Star Wars analogy to Macross.

As for Macross, I thought Macross II was part of the franchise. I know it's level of importance was taken out of the primary history of established events, but it's still an official production isn't it? Or is Macross II something designated as "official" while only the Kawamori/Studio Nue stuff has the honor of being considered "canon" Macross?

actually the star wars analogy fits macross perfectly. Macross II was an official macross production and yes, it's not considered canon. the same way, the myriad SW books are official SW productions and they're not considered to be canon.

[Radd]

I've always assumed that Macross II is not canon because officially it has been removed from canon? This is not something left up to fan interpretation. The most common reason I've heard for it being removed from canon was how unpopular it was, the last couple episodes having been rushed out do to the budget being cut because of how poorly it had done.

[Mr March]

Ah, so Macross does have a ranking system for canon then? Guess it was made necessary by the Macross II incident, but hasn't been needed since. THat makes sense.

[Radd]

I could be wrong. I get most of my information right here in this forum, or from the Compendium.

[Sorata]

I've always assumed that Macross II is not canon because officially it has been removed from canon? This is not something left up to fan interpretation. The most common reason I've heard for it being removed from canon was how unpopular it was, the last couple episodes having been rushed out do to the budget being cut because of how poorly it had done.

Plus most of the people who worked on Macross like Kawamori didnt like it and didnt have their input on it and Macross II deviated from the overall plan for Macross.

Shoji Kawamori had no interest in doing any more followups to SDF Macross at that time. Studio Nue was not involved, and of the original staff, only Haruhiko Mikimoto and one of the original screenwriters who I cant find his name decided to work on Macross II which Big West and Bandai decided to do themselves based on the Macross franchise for money.

Also if it was canon then the Marduk would have been part of the ancient people that made up the Protoculture or a splinter off shoot of the Zentradi race.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Sorata

[Roy Focker]

Studio Nue and Kawamori were the creators of Macross. In order to get produced you do often have to sale your rights. Thus you have Big West. Studio Nue gets all the credit for creating Macross but Big West (from my understanding) can decide to make all the Macross they want but without the creators input. Thus you have Macross II.

I could buy all rights of Star Wars from Lucas. Star Wars is mine. I can do anything I want with it. I could call my changes and additions as the "offical" story. Even so without using Lucas as a story consultant and Lucas Films as coproducers would people accept my Star Wars as offical? They are offical cause I owe it but I didn't create it.

[Oihan]

Macross II was made to try and exploit the success of DYRL, but since it was made without any input from the original creators, the writers got too creative and made some extreme changes that contradicted or made no sense with the original, after it turn out to be a major flop, and Kawamori planing to go back to the Macross franchise, seeing that Macross II made absolutely no sense with what he was planning to implement and really really sucked, he decided to make it as an alternate universe to the original, or to be consider a fictional movie within the Macross universe

Do you have the numbers to back up this claim that it's a "major flop" and quotes from Kawamori that he thought "that Macross II...really really sucked"?

As to why Macross II isn't canon...already been covered.

All of these "it really sucks" and "they didn't like it" remarks shouldn't even be in these responses as an answer. They're just biased opinions...not facts. Just like me saying Macross II 0wnz! is not a fact but rather an opinion. There's no need for those comments.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Oihan

[JB0]

If I recall, Kawamori's actually stated he's never SEEN Macross 2, so he has no opinion on it.

So it certainly wasn't banished because he didn't like it.

[Keith]

It could be argued that Kawamori was just being arbitrary by saying he never saw it and as such had no opinion.

The sales numbers & budget snip of Macross II is pretty hard to dispute however, as episode 5 see's an immediate drop in quality that lasts through episode 6, something that only happens when OVA's flop.

But as the story goes, Big West sad over their 10th anniversary flop coaxed Kawamori & Nue into doing more Macross, at which point 7 went into production, & Kawmaori's AVF story was re-written into Plus.

[Sorata]

Do you have the numbers to back up this claim that it's a "major flop" and quotes from Kawamori that he thought "that Macross II...really really sucked"?

As to why Macross II isn't canon...already been covered.

All of these "it really sucks" and "they didn't like it" remarks shouldn't even be in these responses as an answer. They're just biased opinions...not facts. Just like me saying Macross II 0wnz! is not a fact but rather an opinion. There's no need for those comments.

My "didnt like it" was refering to Big West and Bandai approaching him to work on Macross II but he declined and did not wish to create a follow up to Macross at that time but Big west went ahead without him. He may have never seen the finished version that we saw, of that I am uncertain but I do remember him mentioning they approached him and others who worked on the original series and based on the concepts for it and the fact they did not wish to make a follow up series at that time they didnt like it and they all declined but the two individuals I mentioned in my previous post. I remember reading this in an interview by Kawamori but cant remember the source or i would post it, i also should have made my previous post clearer, I am a bad typer as i type way slower than I think and often cut my post and thoughts short when posting on the net. But as for the "it really sucks" etc yeah thats opinion and to each their own.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Sorata

[lord_breetai]

Lucas also made Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic for Xbox is canon (Kotor I atleast he didnt say this about Kotor II) also the new upcoming Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 game Star Wars Unleashed is canon he is personally working on that game and it fits the gap between episode 3 and 4. But yeah Macross II isnt canon.

I belive also the Tales of the Jedi comics, since Lucas helped with those.

Star Wars actually has different levels of cannon for the EU stuff.

[DestroidDefender]

Firstly I'm not talking about Star Wars. I stated upfront that creator involvement was not what I was talking about.

I see a lot of corporate/artistic quality/petty spite explanations. I didn't state my question properly.

I don't want to why MacII is not canon. I want to know the alleged continuity problems in the MacII story that are used to justify it's non-canonic status.

Valkyrie numbering? Not important

"New" songs appearing in chronologically earlier Mac Plus? That would be a continuity problem in Mac Plus not Mac II.

Really, I don't find the Marduk in MacII any harder to swallow than the Protodevlin in Mac7.

What is it that makes Mac II unacceptable?

Edited March 12, 2007 by DestroidDefender

[Mr March]

As far as I understand what has been posted so far, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual fiction of Macross II at all. It's just a classification that Big West has made, a categorization that Macross II is only official while all the other Macross productions are canon.

Now, whether or not this is actually true and provable is the question.

[Zinjo]

My "didnt like it" was refering to Big West and Bandai approaching him to work on Macross II but he declined and did not wish to create a follow up to Macross at that time but Big west went ahead without him. He may have never seen the finished version that we saw, of that I am uncertain but I do remember him mentioning they approached him and others who worked on the original series and based on the concepts for it and the fact they did not wish to make a follow up series at that time they didnt like it and they all declined but the two individuals I mentioned in my previous post. I remember reading this in an interview by Kawamori but cant remember the source or i would post it, i also should have made my previous post clearer, I am a bad typer as i type way slower than I think and often cut my post and thoughts short when posting on the net. But as for the "it really sucks" etc yeah thats opinion and to each their own.

I'd like to see that article myself as I've never read anything like that.

SK had essentially divorced himself from Macross, (untill I see the article where SK states he was approached by Big West, I'll consider that conjecture) and was not "coaxed" back into the franchise, essentially he was coerced back in after the disappointing results of Macross II. (IMO the show was poorly executed and took far too long to hook the audience as opposed to the Studio Nue productions. Thus wasting any of the anticipatory excitement it had prior to release.)

He had a test pilot story idea that he was peddling around to the different studios and Big West offered to fund it IF it were a Macross title (I have little doubt that part of the deal was for him to agree to develop Mac 7 too). So if he ever wanted to his show to see the light of day he had to compormise.

I believe it is apparent why we got a new Macross production every decade, it is not what he wants to be doing. He has already stated that it takes him 3 years to develop a story, so you do the math...

Keith, I'd love to see these sales figures you like to enigamtically quote...

As for Mac II not falling into "what they wanted to do" is erroneous! SK and Studio Nue were off on other projects and it is correctly stated that they were not interested in revisiting the franchise.

Mac II's only real deviation from SDFM was the lack of an emigration program announced by Global at the end of the show.

Everything else was a reasonably probable outcome of what happened after SW1 considering the show pre-dates Macross Plus by a year. In Mac Plus, Studio Nue made a very deliberate effort to divorce their version of the post SW1 Earth from the Mac II version.

It was at that point that Mac II slipped into Alternate Universe status. Since Big West recognizes all the Macross shows as Macross properties it was the fans who made the distinction between the two. As far as I know no one from Studio Nue has officially commented on the show, which makes sense that you don't p*ss off the company funding your projects....

Edited March 12, 2007 by Zinjo

[JsARCLIGHT]

IMHO the "continuity problems" of Macross II came about as the newer Macross shows where minted. I remember when Macross II "came out" and was "the crap", I still remember eagerly waiting for that first VHS to be released. At the time all I had was the tv series, the movie and Flashback... so to me in 1994(? I don't remember the exact year) Macross II was a canonical sequel. At the time I personally saw no "conflicts" or "continuity issues" because no other Macross shows past DYRL and Flashback existed in my world.

Now, after Mac II was "finished" in like 1996(? once again I'm foggy on the numbers) with episode 6 my opinion of it went from "hey this is pretty cool" to "wow that ending really sucked, in both story and animation quality"... but in my opinion it was still canon Macross whether I liked it or not.

Then years afterward (when I found this place) new, different Macross shows came about, which were Plus and 7. My personal problems with those two shows, content aside, was that they didn't "fit" with what my perception of "macross continuity" was which in my mind which went TV - DYRL - Flashback - Macross II... that is when I found out about the "official" "re-purposing" of Mac II to place it outside of the original continuity.

So, IMHO Macross II for a brief period of time was a legitimate, canonical sequel to Macross and heir apparent to the Macross "throne" so to speak... but due to reasons unknown (or at least explained to me in such basic terms that a person of my fourth grade understanding could fathom the politics behind it all) it was struck out of canon and placed into "side story" status. Personally I equate it to the whole "DYRL is a 'movie within the macross universe" stuff... at first it wasn't then it was. But in the case of Mac II at first it was... then it wasn't.

[lord_breetai]

It was at that point that Mac II slipped into Alternate Universe status. Since Big West recognizes all the Macross shows as Macross properties it was the fans who made the distinction between the two. As far as I know no one from Studio Nue has officially commented on the show, which makes sense that you don't p*ss off the company funding your projects....

It wasn't the fans in the short Fetaruette "Macross a Future Chronicle" which was released with the first episode of Macross Plus in Japan it established the time line and Macross II's AU status.

<blockquote>"New" songs appearing in chronologically earlier Mac Plus? That would be a continuity problem in Mac Plus not Mac II.</quote>

I think using the Macross II songs in Plus and 7 was a dilberate way of devaluing II and saving something from the production.

Also remember the Macross is pretty much destroyed in Macross Plus, I don't think it would be reasonable that it got rebuilt for a third time for Macross II.

I like Macross II... but that's just the way it is. It also borrowed to much of it's story from SDC: Southren Cross IMO.

[Mr March]

The only thing I can find that officially says anything one way or another is talk of the official "Chronology" on the Macross Compendium. It states that Macross II is considered a "Parallel World" according to the Studio-Nue Chronology. On this page, about a third of the way down:

http://macross.anime.net/feedback/index.html

So what the hell does that mean?

Big West are the legal owners and if they say something is Macross, it's Macross. Studio Nue is the creative team involved in all the Macross productions except Macross II, but what does their chronology really count for? Is the Studio-Nue Chronology also sanctioned by Big West?

[big F]

Also if it was canon then the Marduk would have been part of the ancient people that made up the Protoculture or a splinter off shoot of the Zentradi race.

I`d rightly or wongly always just asumed the Marduk were just micronised Zentradi. Same war like non culture background but with the song can guide us methodology.

What is cannon, I mean discribe what is meant by it. Ive always had problems with this term, right back to my comic book days.

[DestroidDefender]

Thank you all for your input. I think most of what has been said supports my opinion that there is nothing much wrong with MacII - nothing that doesn't also impact other Macross series (truncated stories line, episodes with poor animation, etc.). It just represents a "road not taken" in future productions.

I suppose MacII could have made some mention of the emigration movement but it wasn't really important to MacII's Earth centered story. And like most I was disappointed by the abrupt ending and the destruction of the SDF - but I could say the same thing about Mac+.

And I still don't understand Mac0.

Anyway here's looking forward to the new project. My forlorn hope is that it will emphasize mecha action, use music in moderation and have minimal references to "spiritua". My "not a chance in hell" hope is that its set during or after SW1 and features Destroids. But I can hope.

Edited March 12, 2007 by DestroidDefender

[Zinjo]

It wasn't the fans in the short Fetaruette "Macross a Future Chronicle" which was released with the first episode of Macross Plus in Japan it established the time line and Macross II's AU status.

I was not aware of the Vignette "Macross a Future Chronicle", now I'd love to see it!

<blockquote>"New" songs appearing in chronologically earlier Mac Plus? That would be a continuity problem in Mac Plus not Mac II.</quote>

I think using the Macross II songs in Plus and 7 was a dilberate way of devaluing II and saving something from the production.

Or maybe, it was a good song and nothing more?

Also remember the Macross is pretty much destroyed in Macross Plus, I don't think it would be reasonable that it got rebuilt for a third time for Macross II.

OK, you need to argue your points from a real life production history, not show chronology. Mac II pre-dates Mac Plus by a year, thus all it's speculative future was based on established history in the universe at the time, with the exception of the conspicuously absent emigration programs.

I like Macross II... but that's just the way it is. It also borrowed to much of it's story from SDC: Southren Cross IMO.

Specifics please, I don't see much of any story elements taken from Southern Cross...

[lord_breetai]

Specifics please, I don't see much of any story elements taken from Southern Cross...

To me the way they handled Music in the series. There's the Emulator who controls the clones with her singing and she comes falls in love with an Earth Man, and learns about earth culture and music. Returns to the fleet fails to sing the songs she was instructed too... this spreads amongst the culture, the contaminated clones are destroyed. And so on...

To me it seemed a lot like Southren Cross and more so like Robotech: Masters.

It's not a huge similarity but it's not a small one either.

[Mr March]

I`d rightly or wongly always just asumed the Marduk were just micronised Zentradi. Same war like non culture background but with the song can guide us methodology.

What is cannon, I mean discribe what is meant by it. Ive always had problems with this term, right back to my comic book days.

Don't let the origins of the term or it's use in numerous industries confuse you. Canon simply means a complete body of work considered to be authentic.

The term has historically been applied to religious endeavours, but like many other non-religious terms or words from other languages, terms are more generally defined in modern language. Modern use of the term canon can apply to anime, films, music, books, et cetera. It most often finds use in popular culture when referencing franchises like Star Wars, Macross, Lord of the Rings, Dune, et cetera. When we speak of canon, all we are asking is what productions of that franchise are considered authentic, sanctioned works that are part of the official, fictional established events. That's it.

As far as I can understand, all the Macross productions thus far are considered canon, but Macross II is officially a Parallel World not part of the official SDFM/DYRL/FB2012/Mac+/Mac7/Mac0 chronology.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr March

[Beltane70]

Also remember the Macross is pretty much destroyed in Macross Plus, I don't think it would be reasonable that it got rebuilt for a third time for Macross II.

Funny, I don't recall the Macross being destroyed at the end of Macross Plus...

[Mr March]

It wasn't. If memory serves correctly, the SDF-1 Macross suffered the least damage in Macross Plus of any Macross anime in which it was featured.

[eugimon]

It wasn't. If memory serves correctly, the SDF-1 Macross suffered the least damage in Macross Plus of any Macross anime in which it was featured.

yup, a single VF smashing the central computer hardly qualifies as "pretty much destroyed"