Macross 25th Anniversary! New TV series coming!

[sketchley]

Thanks TheLoneWolf.

I'm getting the impression that MW members are confusing 'some of the', 'most every', and 'most' as meaning 'all' or 'every single one'. Long answer short: no, and my post using those terms was deliberately structured so as to imply 'many, but not all' (or 'the majority, but not every one'.)

Anyhow... yes, Basara is a lone wolf, a rebel, a nail that sticks up in the face of society. However, he is a 'cool' rebel, as he does it in a non-confrontational manner; the very opposite of the cool-for-the-individualistic-culture(s) characters of Macross Plus. Perhaps that is why Basara is so villified by MW members, but yet he is the *star* of almost half of the Macross anime produced to date?

[1st Border Red Devil]

Hmmm...that looks oddly familiar....oh right....

[Zinjo]

Thanks TheLoneWolf.

Anyhow... yes, Basara is a lone wolf, a rebel, a nail that sticks up in the face of society. However, he is a 'cool' rebel, as he does it in a non-confrontational manner; the very opposite of the cool-for-the-individualistic-culture(s) characters of Macross Plus. Perhaps that is why Basara is so villified by MW members, but yet he is the *star* of almost half of the Macross anime produced to date?

That "star" statement seems a bit misleading. The two movies in the Mac 7 universe were essentially milking the popularity of the most recent show, what BigWest failed to do after DYRL. If one were to look at new merchandizing there is little to no "new" Mac 7 merchandise being released, compared to other shows in the franchise.

I wonder if it is more about Basara's youth as opposed to his demenor. He was very confrontational probably as much as Dyson was, however he was a younger man as opposed to the more mature Isamu, someone the target audience could better identify with.

[Zinjo]

Hmmm...that looks oddly familiar....oh right....

Yes there is similarities however the mecha from Kissdum is part of a larger fighter aircraft whereas the "Logan" was a fighter unto itself.

[jenius]

Looks like a cross between Ed-209 and the Logan.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Plus the logan's legs are humanoid not chickenoid. This thing looks like a cross between a gerwalk, glaug and logan.

Edited March 20, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sundown]

I wonder if it is more about Basara's youth as opposed to his demenor. He was very confrontational probably as much as Dyson was, however he was a younger man as opposed to the more mature Isamu, someone the target audience could better identify with.

Basara annoys not because he's zen-non-confrontationally-cool. He annoys because he's arrogant, self-absorbed, devoid of empathy for those closest to him, unwilling to understand alternate viewpoints, one dimensional, and is convinced that he alone is in the right while completely lacking the humility of those in history who made peaceful resistance effective and attractive. And he has horrible fashion sense. His actions and attitude are justified only because of a contrived, fantasy plot device known as Spiritia that others aren't as able to leverage. So he's disliked not because of his approach. He's disliked because he handles his approach so poorly.

I never liked Dyson much, but for all his flaws, I find him much more believable and palpable than Basara. Ambitious men of action and humble visionaries change the world. But uncompromising, self-rightous peaceniks just annoy everyone involved.

I've only seen about a third of Mac 7, so maybe Basara grows in ways I don't know about.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Sundown

[Phyrox]

Looks like a cross between Ed-209 and the Logan.

It looks enough like the logan to suck, and not enough like Ed-209 not to.

[RDClip]

I've only seen about a third of Mac 7, so maybe Basara grows in ways I don't know about.

Nope, pretty much stays the same.

[kensei]

Myllene stays the same too. She's the only one that I wanted to take a fist to. MOst annoying character ever.

[RDClip]

Myllene stays the same too. She's the only one that I wanted to take a fist to. MOst annoying character ever.

Yeah, pretty funny that the only character that develops throughout the series is the semi main character/side character Gamlin.

[kensei]

Yeah, pretty funny that the only character that develops throughout the series is the semi main character/side character Gamlin.

That's a good thing. From what I heard, he is one of the most popular characters in Macross 7.

[Graham]

Gamlin & Mylene are the main characters.

Basara is just a side character.

Mylene is so cute.....I love her! She's my favorite female anime character ever.

Graham

[EXO]

It looks enough like the logan to suck, and not enough like Ed-209 not to.

I thought it looked like a cross between the YF-19 and the Logan...

maybe we can get Maury Povich to come in and get a paternity test to find out who the real father is...

Maury: "ED... you are NOT the father!"

ED-209: "Yeah!!! Yeah!!! I knew it! In your face bitch! You stupid ho!!!"

Logan: "boohoo..."

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I thought it looked like a cross between the YF-19 and the Logan...

maybe we can get Maury Povich to come in and get a paternity test to find out who the real father is...

Maury: "ED... you are NOT the father!"

ED-209: "Yeah!!! Yeah!!! I knew it! In your face batty! You stupid ho!!!"

Logan: "boohoo..."

LOL. Watch one of them go cry back stage.

[Lonewolf]

Gamlin & Mylene are the main characters.

Basara is just a side character.

Mylene is so cute.....I love her! She's my favorite female anime character ever.

Graham

GOD LORD! It can't be true...

Mylene IS cute, but I think we've seen enough of her.

[big F]

Gamlin & Mylene are the main characters.

I totally agree with Graham there. The other stars were the Vf-17 Vf-11 and the Vf- 19.

Basara was for the most part in need of a slap. He so could be the love child of Sara Nom and Shin.

[chrono]

Basara reminds my far too much of Minmay's cousin, but with a bigger part. Basara would've been a better character if he was a modernized monk from a no-sex sect. LOL! Now that would've been fun. This Basara though belongs in NGE.

But yeah for all the more I want to hate Gamlin, he's actually a great character who actually shows some real growth as a character.

[jenius]

But yeah for all the more I want to hate Gamlin, he's actually a great character who actually shows some real growth as a character

Easily the least annoying Mac7 character... except when he dies and then doesn't die. If they killed him in that scene it would have redeemed a portion of the entire series for me... his miraculous resurrection sucked. This is coming from a guy who hoped every character in Mac7 EXCEPT Gamlin would be killed the first time I watched it through to that point. When he did die I was like "wow, a brave move for the writers! Finally a touch of something more than fluff!" It was like a death to rival Roy's for a moment there.

[thegunny]

"Topic to plot, Topic to Plot, Where are you? Over".

"Plot to Topic, Looks like were are lost, Over".

Enough of the M7 crap, it's been done to death and a death it deserves.

Back to the subject at hand please.

[lord_breetai]

Easily the least annoying Mac7 character... except when he dies and then doesn't die. If they killed him in that scene it would have redeemed a portion of the entire series for me... his miraculous resurrection sucked. This is coming from a guy who hoped every character in Mac7 EXCEPT Gamlin would be killed the first time I watched it through to that point. When he did die I was like "wow, a brave move for the writers! Finally a touch of something more than fluff!" It was like a death to rival Roy's for a moment there.

See, I dunno Gamlin was fairly annoying IMO... I just could never stand them, as opposed to Basara's self-importance, Gamlin was very much a non-entity for most of the series. The only time he really seems human is when he gets jealous about Mylene.

I remember when we got to the epsidoe "Basara dies" back when I was in an anime club, everyone started cheering. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

Besides I think the Death of Gamlin's friend earlier in the series gave us the neccesary, "war is evil and robs daughters of their fathers" stuff.

I dunno I think you people who are brushing of Japanese Cultural Status Quo, are in for a big disapointment. For the most part all anime is produced soley for the Japanese market, there are lot of Japanese artists who A) don't want their stuff shown in america B) don't think americans are capable of understanding it.

Japan has a very insider only personality. Kawamori is one of the few that I know of who actually validated the American audience by including Max and Millia in Macross 7 since they were so popular in America, and saying that was a big part of his reasoning.

Don't expect something to fit your individualistic pallet... Even when Japanese rebel, they usually do it in groups... take a stroll down Harajuku bridge on a Sunday if you wanna see what I'm talking about.

In Japan knowning your place is a very important thing, so Japanese can relate to shows where someone, isn't sure where their place is... but eventually finds the group they belong too and how they can contribute to society.

[Ginrai]

Where did Kawamori ever say the American audience had anything to do with Max and Miria being in Macross 7? Is there an interview somewhere or did you just make that up?

[Phyrox]

Where did Kawamori ever say the American audience had anything to do with Max and Miria being in Macross 7? Is there an interview somewhere or did you just make that up?

In an interview posted recently in one of these threads.

For my money, I don't care WHY characters don't appeal to me. If they don't, they don't. I don't care who the author's intended audience is, if I'm watching it, then I get to judge it.

[Zinjo]

See, I dunno Gamlin was fairly annoying IMO... I just could never stand them, as opposed to Basara's self-importance, Gamlin was very much a non-entity for most of the series. The only time he really seems human is when he gets jealous about Mylene.

Call me shallow, but I just could not get past his hair style!! he looked like astroboy to me....

Though he was a relatively non-character who ironically grew the most in the series, along with Sivil.

I dunno I think you people who are brushing of Japanese Cultural Status Quo, are in for a big disapointment. For the most part all anime is produced soley for the Japanese market, there are lot of Japanese artists who A) don't want their stuff shown in america B) don't think americans are capable of understanding it.

Well I don't blame them for having such a cynical attitude.

If they did to our iconic shows what we've done to theirs we'd be a bit jaded too! Shows like Macross, Mospeada, Gatchaman, Space Cruiser Yamato, Harlock, etc.... all have been butchered under the guise that Western audiences wouldn't understand it as presented or it was too mature in theme for audiences.

There is a reason why the French enjoy a better relationship with the Japanese studios than we do. They respected the content of the shows they licensed from the beginning compared to our "Americanizations".

ADV's dub of Macross is still ripe (as in garbage heap) with that attitude and it is an insult to the original material.

Culturally you are probably right, but from a business point of view, the need for outside funding for productions in an era of shrinking domestic budgets has to be immense. To gain such funding there would be a need to make the characters and even the stories a bit more international in appeal to merit a financial injection into a project.

The western licensers only have so much money to spend on securing a series, thus that well is fairly shallow. Japanese based multinationals like Sony and Bandai could do it, but in order for it to be viable outside of Japan, the series needs that wide appeal as well as the cultural one.

I am wondering in future if series will begin to have multiple story or character threads. One to appeal to Japanese fans and one to appeal to Western fans. That would be interesting to watch for.

[danth]

I don't care who the author's intended audience is, if I'm watching it, then I get to judge it.

Thank you. That's sig-worthy.

[RDClip]

I dunno I think you people who are brushing of Japanese Cultural Status Quo, are in for a big disapointment. For the most part all anime is produced soley for the Japanese market, there are lot of Japanese artists who A) don't want their stuff shown in america B) don't think americans are capable of understanding it.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Many anime creators are very open minded about other cultures nowadays. Heck, many of the great anime (not 'popular' per se, great) of the last decade or so were at least in part influenced by American films or Western literature. Plus even though the primary audience is Japanese people, no company wants to throw away the possibility of licensing deals and royalties.

Ever since Cowboy Bebop was a flop in Japan and was a major sucess here, i think International distibution has become more important to anime companies.

[Zinjo]

Where did Kawamori ever say the American audience had anything to do with Max and Miria being in Macross 7? Is there an interview somewhere or did you just make that up?

http://members.aol.com/LongZhu/Shoji.htm

[Sundown]

If they did to our iconic shows what we've done to theirs we'd be a bit jaded too!

Yeah, they'd never do something like this. =)

Anyway, I've noticed that Japanese storytelling is often anticlimatic and doesn't resolve as well as western storytelling. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I do get a little tired of making excuses for certain Japanese creators. I know they're not making things for me, and I can adapt and accept certain Japanese conventions, but when I see stuff like Ghost In The Shell Innocence, which is completely devoid of storytelling and is basically just a platform for the director's philosophical meanderings, I get to call it as it is.

It might be culturally narrowminded for me to say this, and I'm sure some will object vehemently, but I believe there's such a thing as a good story, and instances of bad storytelling and bad writing can't always be excused by appealing to supposed cultural misunderstandings that make the greatness of that story somehow inscrutable to all but those that "get it". Western culture pumps out a lot of crud too, and some of it is wildly popular and exportable. So just because something's Japanese and pretty, and we don't happen to be Japanese ourselves doesn't make all its observed failings go away.

Anyway, in so far as this relates to Mac 7 (and doesn't relate to the topic =P), Basara *is* annoying. Perhaps that's the creators' intent, and if so, they did a great job of making him borderline aggrivating even to most of the supporting characters. That's good writing. Yet, he remains popular because he has neat hair, cool specs, sings J-Pop, and because he happens to be correct in the contrived fantastical universe he lives in. So if the writers intended all his silliness to be vindicated because of the artificial construct they've created, then they failed to address that you can be right and still be an obnoxious self-centered arse, and being a self-centered arse rarely serves one's purpose and cause. And that's poor storytelling and character writing in my book.

I'm never sure if Basara is singing to people or singing at them. I mean, dude, have you ever considered maybe they don't want to listen to your freaking song?

[chrono]

For the most part all anime is produced soley for the Japanese market, there are lot of Japanese artists who A) don't want their stuff shown in america B) don't think americans are capable of understanding it.

Yes a large amount of anime is directed for the native audience, that's a world wide theme. "A)" is about as incorrect as it can get because those so called 'artists' sign away a good amount of control when it gets made for monetary reasons, so their 'righteousness/ethics' takes a nice little hit and renders their idealism without weight of conviction. "B)" is the usual egoist director comment. Just like when Lucas craps on his critics and critical fans. Thank Buddha those insane crackpots are a dying breed!

"TOPIC DOWN"

"TOPIC DOWN!"

"I REPEAT! TOPIC DOWN!

I just hope that Satoshi Kon doesn't get into the project..... my head would explode from joy!

[sketchley]

Good post, lord_breetai. Very good post.

Chrono, artists in Japan don't sign "away" rights like they do in other countries. I'd go so far as to say that American comic artists were (don't know if they still are) trying to copy the way Japanese manga artists and publishers deal with rights, and distribution control(s). See Image Comics.

There have also been plenty of cases were Japanese manga artists do not want their artwork flipped for the left to right, top to bottom reading audiences.

And others are doing such a good job at describing how they are 'not getting it' that it's not even worth commenting upon any further.

But I will add this: "One man's garbage is another man's gold." And "It's all in the eye of the beholder."

Edited March 21, 2007 by sketchley

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

So if the writers intended all his silliness to be vindicated because of the artificial construct they've created, then they failed to address that you can be right and still be an obnoxious self-centered arse, and being a self-centered arse rarely serves one's purpose and cause. And that's poor storytelling and character writing in my book.

Basara didn't really care if the band failed commercially or what the other band members thought. I thought that was pretty funny but the thing about it, was you tend to respect him more for not compromising on his way of doing things. Like Dyson, he is "hard-headed" and stubborn. Yang is the weak one for being too careful, Dyson is the strong one for not caring if something is dangerous.

Whether you like him is more to personal taste though. I can understand that. The thing that puzzles me is how people associate "going against the grain", "ignoring authority figures", ....with ONLY being characters that appeal to westerners. What about Shogo in megazone 23, or the main character in Zeta Gundam who can't stand the Titans? Seems a bit discriminatory to assume people only go for that to me. The main character in zeta gundam did understand discipline but that didn't mean he automatically gave into authority if his elders' beliefs clashed with his own beliefs. The uniforms, badges, respect, status doesn't mean too much unless it is earned. In fact I like to think that the older the character is, the more potential for the main character to be manipulated by the older character. A healthy mistrust of the authority makes the character more street smart and able to survive. Think of the old guy in ninja scroll, that old guy is a spy. Can you trust a spy just because he lectures you on wasting your life and choosing not to do anything about fighting some stupid demons which have nothing to do with you? What do you know about him? Imagine all the people he tricked and manipulated before meeting Jubei? Can we assume he isn't using you for his own interests? Maybe he is just using the characters youth and ignorance to his advantage because he is too weak to do it himself so he has to poison and blackmail people for help? A good example is in how macross plus the old black guy mentions he was just like dyson and is just playing with his mind to get him angry. Old people/adults = people with more tricks.

I'm pretty sure these are characters that are interesting to the japanese for thier boldness and willingness to do the right thing and defy the authority if given good reason. It's just that I wish they didn't have to make them like the kid in evangelion because I think it would be boring having a character who people feel is a bit too much like them. (ie can't communicate well, his dad is neglectful, the parents are divorced, whines a lot and is depressed and potentially psychotic - I'm sick of that to be honest. Angsty teens has been done to death)

Imagine if say, homer simpson (balding, overweight, drunken, donut eating, loud and obnoxious) was the main character in an american super hero comic and you'll get the idea. You don't want the main character to have to be a loser (even if the creator is deliberately making fun of that audience) all the time do you? Move on and do something different.

Edited March 21, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sundown]

Despite issues I take with Kawamori's own storytelling tendencies lately, he does say something that I can agree eagerly with, and does demonstrate quite a bit of humility in regards to anime.

Japanese animation is well received in foreign countries these days, especially in the US, where they even coined a word for it: "Japanimation." What do you think of this popularity?

I'm grateful for it. But on the other hand, I think it's still mostly a popularity that stems from a "it's-pretty-good-for-a-cartoon" mentality. I think anime's popularity has also been boosted by it being a little overrated. I can help thinking Americans must be comparing anime to the animation they normally see on American TV and saying,"Gee, relatively speaking, anime is much better than this." In my opinion, too, anime can be 100 times more interesting than American animation, but....

Edited March 21, 2007 by Sundown

[chrono]

Good post, lord_breetai. Very good post.

Chrono, artists in Japan don't sign "away" rights like they do in other countries. I'd go so far as to say that American comic artists were (don't know if they still are) trying to copy the way Japanese manga artists and publishers deal with rights, and distribution control(s). See Image Comics.

There have also been plenty of cases were Japanese manga artists do not want their artwork flipped for the left to right, top to bottom reading audiences.

First off I never said anything about "rights". I said control. Rights and Control are a totally different ballpark when a contract is involved. Virtual ever manga published has it written into the publishing contract that they are willing to have the work turned into an show based on their work. Also the publishers have other options written into the contract allowing a large amount of leeway in publishing the work. No doubt this may also includes possible international relations. J-artists only get any leeway when they are making the publisher money via books or anime, ie very popular. Popularity = bargining power = control

Yeah Images did try to do it that way where they thought the publishers should come to them. Yeah Image really did good didn't they. Less then Darkhorse status. *sigh*

My point was that NO artist/director can say jack about somethings when they signed a contract for it and are getting paid to do it, especially on the topics of ethics/righteousness when talking about 'denying' other nation publishing. Wave money at them and they sit, rollover, and beg. (See the Tenjho Tenge/CMX debacle)

Anyways any REAL news on the show?

[sketchley]

Rights = control. As in: you have the right to tell someone to not do something, or face the legal consequences.

The way I understand it, the manga artist and the mange publisher agree to have equal rights over the material. If one side is in disagreement, then they both cannot proceed on a derivative project (this could even include reprinting the original work!)

Re: your point - not everyone shares the same capitalist point of view. There are still plenty of people who won't do something, no matter the sum of money offered to them.

Refusing to have one's work translated and published in a foreign language isn't about righteousness nor ethics. For starters, the artist(s) may not understand that foreign language - thus they have no way to verify if their work has been translated correctly, or even adequately! Outside of it's cultural context, there's also the potential of the work not being understood, being completely misunderstood, or even creating a negative stereotype towards the source culture!

In the 1970's, the majority of American movies exported and shown overseas featured male characters who were more often then not drunkards and abusive to the women they had relationships with. Now, some 25 to 35 years later, there is a generation of parents in Asia (and probably beyond) who have the image that all white males are abusive drunkards. A lot of these parents refuse to allow their daughters to see, let alone date, or even worse, marry, a white foreigner! (It’s not helping that the average eikaiwa white Engrish teacher doesn’t bother finding out what work and life will be like in Japan, and end up being drunk like a skunk most every night; in addition to “wham, bam, thank you ma’amâ€~ing every girl they can get their hands on. But that’s another story.)

Having grown up in the North American, or Western European culture, we all know that those movies from the 1970’s were merely characterizations to show the hero overcoming not only the villain, but the hero’s own flaws. However, outside of their cultural context, they have created a rather negative stereotype. The same thing has happened with Urutsukidoji (for a good half-a-decade, if not longer, at least one English country thought that Japanimation was only tentacle rape fluff.) In addition, how many of you have heard that Japanese (especially, but not limited to the men) are (sexual) perverts?

Three negative stereotypes all formed by things viewed from outside of their cultural context. Is it righteousness? No. Is it ethics? Possibly, as the material is an ambassador (like those Eikaiwa teachers...) for the country, and may very well form the future perceptions and reactions to the culture!

[GutsAndCasca]

Geez, I just found out about this today. "Must I lose touch with everything I love as I grow old?!"