Macross 25th Anniversary! New TV series coming!

[s001]

A more interesting question stands... which is whether it will be between the SWI and Macross Plus/Seven Eras, or maybe the VFX and after era (2050's).

I think after 2050 could be better

[terry the lone wolf]

Hmm could be worse Mac 7 singing all out of tune and low cost 2D 3d lookalike CGI and attomically purfect women and cheasy one liners.... ehem !! Shadow Cronicles ehem!!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Let me see; attomically purfect women or annoying "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!!" J-pop goodness. I think I'm going with the juggies on trampolenes!!!

[1st Border Red Devil]

Hmm could be worse Mac 7 singing all out of tune and low cost 2D 3d lookalike CGI and attomically purfect women and cheasy one liners.... ehem !! Shadow Cronicles ehem!!

Nah, a bad sequel would just confirm that there are as many Kool-Aid drinkers out there in Macross fandom as (sadly) infect Robotech's fandom. Even as little a fan of Macross as I am know that 'any production is better than no production' is just asking to be handed a steaming pile of cow dung and told to like it.

[Graham]

Merged topics and edited title.

Graham

[UN Spacy]

Whoa. So it IS a TV series?

[Radd]

I never stated that any magic was involved, I pointed out that computers offer more automated animation abilities that manual animation doesn't offer.

And I pointed out that the common perception of the extent of that automated animation is often exaggerated beyond the reality. Regardless of whether you're using Maxon, Maya, or 3DSMax, more manual work goes into the production than many realize.

AFAIK Pixar didn't have to rebulid the entire meshes for the characters, as much as they re-textured them and added other advanced elements to the animation. Again, motion picture production to OVA/TV is another instance of apples to oranges.

You may wish to recheck your notes, it is cost prohibitive to regularly rebuild models for TV production. Re-texturing is common but a TV producer is not going to spend his SPFX budget on re-inventing the wheel when all it needs is a bit of new paint. If the digital FX department built a poor model to begin with they won't be in the business for very long.

I'm not comparing the movie industry to the tv industry, just pointing out how quickly quality in CG is affected by technology. The Pixar example was simply the first to come to mind. My understanding was that they rebuilt those models entirely, from scratch, due to the obvious differences in quality between the old and new models. A tv series would face the same issue. And it has nothing to do with "building bad models in the first place" so I'm not certain why you make that comment, unless you're confusing changes in technology with poor judgement and a lack of skill?

Very true, however you take the number of hours worked on a project and multiply that by number of people working on a project and the costs add up very fast.

You also have to consider the going wages. Your average inbetweener doesn't make that much. Also...

The reality is that 3D animation is cheaper than traditional otherwise why would animation houses even bother with it if there wasn't a cost benefit. Similar to how the grunt work of animation has been exported to Korea for cost savings, the argument for using CG over manual animation must be similar. Otherwise the 2D animation series' would benefit from higher profits and thus be much more attractive to producers and the only time CG would be seen would be in motion pictures where the budgets can accomodate it.

My basic point is simply that CG has to be cost effective (if done right) otherwise it isn't profitable and therefore not worth the effort to employ it in anime.

...my point remains the same. Bad CG is cheaper and easier than bad 2D, but the higher you up the quality, the more that advantage diminishes. I've made this point since the beginning. However, there is a balance that can be reached for optimal use of budget. I'm not saying that anything resembling decent 3D animation is going to be too cost prohibitive for a tv series (though the quality of 3D CG we often see in television makes a very compelling argument to this effect).

To use your own logic, if decent 3D CG were so much more cost effective and easier than decent 2D animation, wouldn't we see far more entirely 3D CG shows?

[Zinjo]

...my point remains the same. Bad CG is cheaper and easier than bad 2D, but the higher you up the quality, the more that advantage diminishes. I've made this point since the beginning. However, there is a balance that can be reached for optimal use of budget. I'm not saying that anything resembling decent 3D animation is going to be too cost prohibitive for a tv series (though the quality of 3D CG we often see in television makes a very compelling argument to this effect).

To use your own logic, if decent 3D CG were so much more cost effective and easier than decent 2D animation, wouldn't we see far more entirely 3D CG shows?

My point is that if it is so much more expensive and time consuming woudn't it be abandoned by the TV industry as being too expensive for animation budgets?

Entertainment is all about making a profit, if the production costs too much, changes will be made to make it cheaper or it will be cancelled (cut short if it's a Japanese production).

With regards to "old models" and "new technology", unless a show is on for enough time to necessitate the need for new technology, then I can see your point. However, most production houses are not going to spend a large portion of their FX budgets on new software and the potential labor intensive necessity to rebuild existing models if the old ones are doing the job just fine. They'd be more inclined to buy faster computers to allow the rendering to be done faster and thus cheaper.

[eugimon]

My point is that if it is so much more expensive and time consuming woudn't it be abandoned by the TV industry as being too expensive for animation budgets?

Entertainment is all about making a profit, if the production costs too much, changes will be made to make it cheaper or it will be cancelled (cut short if it's a Japanese production).

With regards to "old models" and "new technology", unless a show is on for enough time to necessitate the need for new technology, then I can see your point. However, most production houses are not going to spend a large portion of their FX budgets on new software and the potential labor intensive necessity to rebuild existing models if the old ones are doing the job just fine. They'd be more inclined to buy faster computers to allow the rendering to be done faster and thus cheaper.

as far as the use of CG in tv shows and animated movies goes, it has less to do with what's budget friendly and more to do with what the studios think the audience wants. With the success of pixar and dreamworks CGI movies and the relative failure of 2D animated projects... like brother bear and the like, traditional 2D houses are abandoning hand drawn animation not because it's cheaper to do 3D but because that's what they think the audience wants. CG models are great for animating complex characters, or doing nifty things like camera rotations around the character (animated backgrounds) but to model everything and then animate it gets expensive very quickly. Especially when that character or object is not going to be on screen for very long.

And sometimes it is cheaper just to build a new model. One example of this: a major network had a logo bumper where the network logo dissolved into a bunch of particles and flies off screen... to actually animate that would be pretty expensive, so the animators just made 2 models, one of the logo all solid and nice and another one of the particle blobs grouped together, ready to do particle type stuff. Then they just animated it so that the solid logo disappeared at the right time, replaced by the blobs. so it just depends, sometimes in order to achieve a particular shot, you need a whole new model, since reworking the old one is just not feasible.

[Radd]

My point is that if it is so much more expensive and time consuming woudn't it be abandoned by the TV industry as being too expensive for animation budgets?

That line of thought ignores pretty much everything I've said, unless there's simply a misunderstanding. Unless you honestly believe a lot of the utterly wretched CG foisted upon network television i actually pretty decent?

eugimon makes some very solid points as well. I'm not certain how it was done in Zero, but I know in Beast Wars and Beast Machines, robot and animal/vehicle modes were entirely different models. I wouldn't have been surprised if each character had an 'in between' model as well.

As for non-robot, non-transforming characters, sometimes the character mesh will look off during certain animations, so a new mesh is required that looks 'off' doing other things. Sometimes other parts of the model need to be resized, redone, tweaked, moved around...much of this manually, mind you.

But back to the main issue, I have never once said that CG as a whole is too expensive for television animation, simply that there comes a point where to achieve the quality you want, it becomes easier to work with 2D animation, especially with many of the advances that have been made there (drawing tablets, automatic inbetweening, playing with layers and animation libraries, etcetera). This is why most of the better television work meshes 2D with 3D to work with the best qualities, from a studio standpoint, of both. Of course, even then you still see lots of pretty terrible CG out there when studios cannot afford to, as eugimon pointed out, spend a little more to play off the public fascination with 3D CG.

*edit*

If this topic must continue, seeing as how it's moved away from the new Macross production into more general territory, if it would be allowed I'd vote to move the conversation to its own thread in 'Other Anime and Science Fiction' (seeing as how it does relate to anime as a whole).

Edited March 13, 2007 by Radd

[Black Valkyrie]

Merged topics and edited title.

Graham

Thanks Gundam man

[Ghadrack]

Just a thought on the subject of "bringing it over". This isn't a fix for everyone, but if they release the series on BluRay disc, and since we are in the same Blu Ray region as Japan, HG is out of luck on laying any claim to the Macross name, because we can legally import Japanese discs and those fancy Blu Ray discs have plenty of room for an english language subtitle track

[Zinjo]

Just a thought on the subject of "bringing it over". This isn't a fix for everyone, but if they release the series on BluRay disc, and since we are in the same Blu Ray region as Japan, HG is out of luck on laying any claim to the Macross name, because we can legally import Japanese discs and those fancy Blu Ray discs have plenty of room for an english language subtitle track

Yes it's just a matter of letting the powers that be know that we'd like an English language subtitle track and are willing to pay for it...

[Zinjo]

If this topic must continue, seeing as how it's moved away from the new Macross production into more general territory, if it would be allowed I'd vote to move the conversation to its own thread in 'Other Anime and Science Fiction' (seeing as how it does relate to anime as a whole).

Good point, however I suspect we are exhausting the topic already.

[big F]

Yes it's just a matter of letting the powers that be know that we'd like an English language subtitle track and are willing to pay for it...

I`d like to think that they already know we are here. I kinda subscribe to the theory that S.K or some of his minions have lerked here and on any other Macross Website thay can find. The fact that Macross World is in the Top ten Macross sites means they have to have seen it at least once. Afterall we know that Yamato have in the past lerked here although they do have Graham to talk to direct. Maybe Graham will get mail from S.K.

[Dante74]

I`d like to think that they already know we are here. I kinda subscribe to the theory that S.K or some of his minions have lerked here and on any other Macross Website thay can find. The fact that Macross World is in the Top ten Macross sites means they have to have seen it at least once. Afterall we know that Yamato have in the past lerked here although they do have Graham to talk to direct. Maybe Graham will get mail from S.K.

...which makes me wonder. Are there any Japanese dedicated Macross fan sites that include a lively forum? Something like Macross World Japan.

[Duymon]

So Kawamori is involved. This just keeps getting better and better.

I dunno, after seeing funny bird alien thingamajiggas and lil island people in M0 I'm worried

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

...which makes me wonder. Are there any Japanese dedicated Macross fan sites that include a lively forum? Something like Macross World Japan.

I often wonder this too.

[Garrick]

Well, there are probabilities of having incoherent stuff but maybe there's hope for something that explains all, after all is a TV series, and that means at leats 26 episodes. Plenty of room to provide explanation for everything.

I'd prefer to think positively on this.

[thegunny]

Well, there are probabilities of having incoherent stuff but maybe there's hope for something that explains all, after all is a TV series, and that means at leats 26 episodes. Plenty of room to provide explanation for everything.

I'd prefer to think positively on this.

Why does it have to be 26 episodes?

It would be nice but there are plenty of series around that are way short of that, some are only 12 or 13 episodes.

[eugimon]

Why does it have to be 26 episodes?

It would be nice but there are plenty of series around that are way short of that, some are only 12 or 13 episodes.

it could also be hundreds of episodes... with month long battles where pilots are about to fire missiles and have long flashbacks about when they were kids.

[Mr March]

it could also be hundreds of episodes... with month long battles where pilots are about to fire missiles and have long flashbacks about when they were kids.

BASTARD! Burn in zee heck

[Zinjo]

I`d like to think that they already know we are here. I kinda subscribe to the theory that S.K or some of his minions have lerked here and on any other Macross Website thay can find. The fact that Macross World is in the Top ten Macross sites means they have to have seen it at least once. Afterall we know that Yamato have in the past lerked here although they do have Graham to talk to direct. Maybe Graham will get mail from S.K.

If we were considered such a viable market by the lurkers wouldn't Macross Zero have had English subtitles?

MW has been around since 1999....

I am never one to leave anything to chance, I think we need to find a way to let Big West know that subtitled Blueray discs of Macross productions will be purchased by Western fans...

[kensei]

I think there is a big chinese site, it was pretty flashy when I saw it. I believe it was a forum as well. I assume it's successful, it's very professionally done.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Looking forward to seeing what this is about.

Do you think it will take place in different environments the way gundam shows are?

like some battles on the ground, some in space, others at sea, and a few inside a complex. (I dunno like a massive battroid and destroid raid of an enemy base with violent messy deaths on the level of DYRL?)

..And it all ends with a giant superweapon developed in secret with millions of deaths. I think if it is going to be a tv series and have epic story with many characters involved and twists then I will definately be interested.

Oh yeah I know people hate gundam wing (especially the beam rifle that has the power of the sdf 1's main gun able killing army of mecha with a single shot as if it was a fighting game character's super move ) but if this turns out to be something like that or seed, I doubt it will destroy the macross name. It might actually be profitable in toy sales and mean we see more macross stories that old fans would like. So there might actually be an upside to it if it does do a Gundam Seed-style brightly colored kiddie-fied mecha show.

I know I would prefer a more gritty 8th ms team type thing, but it won't piss me off THAT much if it doesn't live up to expectations. (as someone else put it the only way is up) Maybe it will be more equivalent to what Turn A Gundam was which isn't designed for selling toys and stuff, and just be about characters. (an image of Syd Mead-designed valks just popped into me head lol)

Some of my fave mechas in seed destiny were:

-the dog like mecha on four legs that transformed into a humanoid gundam.

-the transformable mobile armor which had the chicken legged mode.

-that valkrie gundam that had a transformation similar to the zeta gundam.

I'm crap with remember thier names.

Edited March 14, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[John Focker]

Some of my fave mechas in seed destiny were:

-the dog like mecha on four legs that transformed into a humanoid gundam.

ZGMF-X88S Gaia

-the transformable mobile armor which had the chicken legged mode.

ZGMF-X24S Chaos

-that valkrie gundam that had a transformation similar to the zeta gundam.

MVF-M11C Murasame

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah those are the ones. All I remember was four-legged panther, the valk thingy, and some chicken legged mobile armor which could transform into several things..

They stood out because they had different forms to other shows and kinda reminded me of macross because of those features. (reverse leg thing reminded me of zentradi regult, the fighter plane reminded me of the valk, and the panther looked like something from zoids.) Because they looked unique, they looked like they suited different environments.

The dogs are good for running so are the ground mecha.

The chicken looks like it could land on any surface and they just look like they are able to hop around like the regult.

The valk is the king of the skies and dogfighting.

Like the octos in mac 0, which was for underwater use, I am wondering: assuming this is going to be a big war like the original SDF:M, will they make lots of different types of mecha for each environment? ie some crawl across the ground, others swim in the sea, some fly in space (think of the koenig monster) and some just roll using treads or wheels on the feet. I hope there is a nice balance of types. (not just humanoid stuff) The anti-un had knowledge of transformation way back in the macross zero days so even though it was a secret to the public, I would love to see more of the transformation idea used in the destroids in later generations.

Variable Glaug? check

Variable monster? check

variable Qrau? check

Variable spartan? someone made a fanfic one. Wouldn't mind seeing more of something like that for example. If the zentradi can have glaugs that fly, naturally destroids should get something like that too right?

Edited March 14, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[lord_breetai]

Actually the standard 26 episode season is so 80s... These days anime is being a lot more like mainstream Japanese TV now where they take as many episodes at they need wether it's less or more to tell their story.

Edited March 14, 2007 by lord_breetai

[ly000001]

Maybe Graham will get mail from S.K.

"Dear Graham:

WTF is this 'Hory Froating Head" crap?!

Sincerely,

Shoji Kawamori"

[Dante74]

"Dear Graham:

WTF is this 'Hory Froating Head" crap?!

Sincerely,

Shoji Kawamori"

LOL!!1

Re:WTF

"Dear Shoji,

I'll explain the 'Hory Froating Head' crap as soon as you quit with the tree hugging hippie crap.

Sincerely

Graham"

[Knight26]

Variable Q-Rau, where?

[isamu]

3-11-07 (8:59PM EDT)---- Latest Macross Animation To Be Announced At Tokyo Anime Fair 2007

Animation production company Satelight will host a Macross 25th Anniversary booth at the Tokyo Anime Fair to be held in 2 weeks in Japan. Plans are to formally announce the new work at the event. ANS was the first English source to break news on the new Macross way back on February 5th, the news was then confirmed by Victor and through a revamp at the official website this past week.

Edit: forgot link

awesome!!!!!!!

[MjrMisaHayase]

WOO-HOO!!!!!!

[big F]

"Dear Graham:

WTF is this 'Hory Froating Head" crap?!

Sincerely,

Shoji Kawamori"

ROTFL

[T.V.]

LOL!!1

Re:WTF

"Dear Shoji,

I'll explain the 'Hory Froating Head' crap as soon as you quit with the tree hugging hippie crap.

Sincerely

Graham"

*tries visiting MW*

The following error has occured:

# 404 File Not Found

The requested URL was not found on this server.

Is Kawaromi really that bad?

[terry the lone wolf]

Anime News Service(1:19AM EDT)----Kissdum: Engage Planet- Production Dry Run Before Macross?

It's looking as if animation studio Satelight's Kissdum: Engage Planet TV anime coming up for an April debut in Japan will test out alot of the key production concepts that will go into their future Macross revival project. Macross mechanical designer Shouji Kawamori has comeup with several new Macross like fighter planes for the series. Satelight will be taking those and transitioning them into 3DCG models for the work. Writers and character designers will likewise be busy supplying content for a story involving pilots, support personel, lots of young pretty girls and love triangles. Look for alot of the staff to transition over to the new Macross from this one with their hard earned production experience on a very similarly themed show.

http://www.animenewsservice.com/