Zinjo Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 Who knows? It could be the Supervision Army ship we saw in Ep 30 just cruising by Earth. That WAS an SA wrecked ship. The concern over it being booby trapped, is why they left it alone.
eugimon Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 But as Duke alluded to, the Force was established as part of the Star Wars universe almost immediately, and has been a major part from the get go. In Macross it became tangible only after a full series, movie, and OVA (if I have the release order right). I think sci-fi fans don't have a problem with mystical powers if they are set up as a part of the universe rules, but not so much when a series that seems to be without them is changed well afterwards... True, but I would argue that in SW, the audience is given a more complete view of the big picture through kenobi, who explains how things work to luke. In macross, the audience, and the protagonists, are thrust into a universe they hardly understand. Leaving the universe open for further development. It's a stretch, I know. I'm not saying I'm particularly pleased with the spirita development, all things considered, I'd rather the series hadn't gone the way it has and stayed with a less mystical and more military themed route.
Ginrai Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 True, but I would argue that in SW, the audience is given a more complete view of the big picture through kenobi, who explains how things work to luke. In macross, the audience, and the protagonists, are thrust into a universe they hardly understand. Leaving the universe open for further development. It's a stretch, I know. What are you talking about? Roy Focker clearly explains the rules of the game to Hikaru in the second episode. It's the exact same scenario.
eugimon Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 (edited) What are you talking about? We're talking about the introduction of spirita into the macross universe. follow the thread. Last I remember, roy wasn't some spirita guru to hikaru. Nor does roy reveal to hikaru that the zentradi are genetically nearly identical to humans, or that both were created by an ancient progenitor race. There's a lot to the macross universe that's not revealed in the first few episodes. Edited July 18, 2007 by eugimon
azrael Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 I'm not saying I'm particularly pleased with the spirita development, all things considered, I'd rather the series hadn't gone the way it has and stayed with a less mystical and more military themed route. To that, I say Kawamori doesn't seem to want to limit himself to just a few themes and I doubt we will see much to the contrary with the upcoming series.
Ginrai Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 (edited) Roy Focker explains that giant aliens are invading, that their robots can turn into jets, and other important background information Hikaru did not have. In a plot sense, Focker serves the exact same role as Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mentor figure that gets the important exposition out of the way. Roy didn't explain about spiritia, but Obi-Wan didn't explain about midichlorians. Edited July 18, 2007 by Ginrai
Zinjo Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 Roy didn't explain about spiritia, but Obi-Wan didn't explain about midichlorians. Assuming humanity even knew about such a phenomena, that's very advanced stuff for a squadron commander... Even his ex girlfriend Aries would not have told him of such things, if she knew....
Pat Payne Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 Roy Focker explains that giant aliens are invading, that their robots can turn into jets, and other important background information Hikaru did not have. In a plot sense, Focker serves the exact same role as Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mentor figure that gets the important exposition out of the way. Roy didn't explain about spiritia, but Obi-Wan didn't explain about midichlorians. Except that Obi-Wan, through the three movies, explains a lot of the minutiae of the backstory (at least those points that Lucas had already extrapolated on, barring the later revisions from the prequels) including giving forth with a (somewhat concealed) origin for Darth Vader. All Roy does is tell Hikaru "Here's how you don't end up shot, and damned if I know what these things are, it's all top secret." Besides, Hikaru had discovered independently and accidentally that the Valks had the Battriod mode through Misa's intercession. And he already knew that giant aliens were invading. One was about to squash him and Minmay flat just as Roy arived and saved the day.
eugimon Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 (edited) There's back story, but SW lucas doesn't add anything in the prequels that wasn't alluded to in the original trilogy. It's not as is if there was no force in episode 4 and 5 and then suddenly luke learns he's a jedi in 6 and find out that kenobi was a jedi all along as well. This is essentially what happens in the macross series. Besides, Kenobi may not have explained the minutia of the force, but he explains there is such a thing, and how to use it. and more importantly, the AUDIENCE knows about it. We don't get blind sided it by it 15 years later. SDFM and macross plus, no spirita as far as the characters know. But then in mac 7, this thing called spirita is introduced, retcons why minmei and culture affected the zentradi in SDFM and then in zero, it's further retconned when we find out that roy knew about it too. Edited July 19, 2007 by eugimon
Duke Togo Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Thats the real issue here. Its not Valkyries with mouths, or Sailor Moon bad guys. Its the retcon. Continuing down that road would further damage my overall view of Macross as a franchise, and thus my enjoyment of it.
sebangoh87 Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 I haven't read through the entire thread yet, so someone might have posted something similar already. Apparently, the new female lead and a trailer of the new series will be shown on August 18th at the Minmay meets Fire Bomber concert!
kensei Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 That's a nice way to do it. Damn and it's a month away.
azrael Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 I haven't read through the entire thread yet, so someone might have posted something similar already. Apparently, the new female lead and a trailer of the new series will be shown on August 18th at the Minmay meets Fire Bomber concert! We know. Onlya month away. Thats the real issue here. Its not Valkyries with mouths, or Sailor Moon bad guys. Its the retcon. Continuing down that road would further damage my overall view of Macross as a franchise, and thus my enjoyment of it. But who are we targeting with this new series? You? Or the kids who have little or no exposure Macross in their entire life?
Aegis! Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 You people need to start thinking positive. AFAWK, the most recent production is the best source to get an idea as to where Macross is going to, and last thing I remember THERE WAS NO SPIRITA IN M0. I think Kawamori is slowly distancing himself from the concept of spirita seen in M7 and going for a more subtle and reasonable solution. This is clearly seen by the fact that the only excuse for Sara´s (and Mao) abilities was that they were directly linked with the protoculture, and it was only those genetic traits (evidenced by Aries´s work) that allowed them to control remaining PC artifacts in the island ( notice the only things they could control, like rocks or totems, was stuff that was ¨signed¨ and shared the same material as the pre-awakened AFOS). So far we don´t even know what the PC were capable of, both in technological and physiological terms. What I´m trying to say is that, IMO, Kawamori is going for a less superficial explanaition for spirita and has clearly made an effort to keep it tied to the protoculture, which was canon from the begining.
GutsAndCasca Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 I'm agreeing with you, Aegis. And I also agree with some of the things people said further up there. I'm not particularly thrilled about the whole "Minmay meets Firebomber" concept, truth be told. I try to keep M7 alongside M2.
GutsAndCasca Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 There's been 1521 f--king posts on this thread?
Duke Togo Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 You people need to start thinking positive. AFAWK, the most recent production is the best source to get an idea as to where Macross is going to, and last thing I remember THERE WAS NO SPIRITA IN M0. But the entire OVA contained so much retcon it was distracting. Hell, how many discussions did we have about the appearance of the VF-0 compared to that of the VF-1, and the "origin story" as told in SDF Macross.
Mr March Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Not all retcon is bad. I really enjoyed some of the retcon Macross Zero introduced, particularly energy converting armor and the cyclops radar system. It addressed several of the technical plot holes in the original SDF Macross series and made the series fiction much more coherent. Of course, I'm a technology junkie, so most fans didn't really care
Zinjo Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Not all retcon is bad. I really enjoyed some of the retcon Macross Zero introduced, particularly energy converting armor and the cyclops radar system. It addressed several of the technical plot holes in the original SDF Macross series and made the series fiction much more coherent. Of course, I'm a technology junkie, so most fans didn't really care I agree. Mainly because the original history seemed so hastily thrown together as opposed to how Mac Zero was more deliberate. Establishing the AUN as an army as opposed to some unrealistically well equipped terrorist organization. How well equipped they really were was logically kept secret from the public to avoid errosion of confidence in the young UNG. The metaphysical retcon, is debatable. I thought it was much better presented than Mac 7 if SK insists on keeping it in the universe (although why he feels its necessary when he has the SA and the PC cultures and tech still to explore in the universe-would love to be able to ask that question directly... ).
Fred_Scuttle Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Not wanting to wade through all 1500 posts - could someone give a clue on the meaning of this 'retcon' term? Thanks!
Mr March Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Not wanting to wade through all 1500 posts - could someone give a clue on the meaning of this 'retcon' term? Thanks! Recton = Rectroactive Continuity. Recton definition on Wiki
Pat Payne Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 The metaphysical retcon, is debatable. I thought it was much better presented than Mac 7 if SK insists on keeping it in the universe (although why he feels its necessary when he has the SA and the PC cultures and tech still to explore in the universe-would love to be able to ask that question directly... ). I'd much rather that The Holy Floating Head go back and give us an exploration of the Supervision Army, than go with more spiritia. I'm sorry, but I really don;t see what it adds to the Macross universe, other than to be a pretentious philosophical concept. That's the problem that I've detected on his more recent works, starting really with Arjuna. He's gone onto a almost pompous and pretentious metaphysical and philosophical kick, (which isn't bad always, some shows like Haruhi and GITS get away with it quite well) but it just, to my mind, doesn't gel well with the Macross universe. (the one time it did was Macross Plus, which IMHO did deal in the big questions of "what is life?" "What is reality?" But then the engine of the rumination was a computerized idol singer, not some hastily-slapped-on energy field.) And at any rate, retcons=poor writing, a continuity getting out of control or too many cooks spoiling the soup. There were so many of those in Star Trek's later shows (Want a quick answer for everything bad in the Trek universe? Section 31 did it. ) and it became almost a race for the writers to put the latest "everything you know about how the Trek Universe works is totally wrong" storyline out there. I don't need Kawamori-sensei to explain that "well, no...Minmay didn't shock the Zentradi through her songs and the promise of culture -- nope, a wizard did it." In a way, that takes away from the message that I percieved was at the heart of the show of the show -- that even though there is a place for warfare, there is still the hope that love and culture and the realm of thoughs and art will win over the warrior's ways -- that the creative impulse (whether that's creating music (Minmay), love (Max & Millia, Hikaru & Misa, Roy & Claudia, The Bridge Bunnies & the Three Stooges) or a massive spaceship (Humanity in general) ) is ultimately stronger than the destructive impulse. You don't need rainbows shooting out of Basara's ass or a half-baked metaphysical framework to convey that message. Indeed, it dilutes it by saying "no, it's not about the creative impulse v. the destructive impulse in mankind -- it really IS about rainbows shooting out of Basara's ass." I didn't intend that to be a dig at Mac7, other than it's the most egregious example so far of the "spiritia" concept.
Duke Togo Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 I'd much rather that The Holy Floating Head go back and give us an exploration of the Supervision Army, than go with more spiritia. Exactly. So much untapped (and ignored) potential here.
big F Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Roy Focker explains that giant aliens are invading, that their robots can turn into jets, and other important background information Hikaru did not have. In a plot sense, Focker serves the exact same role as Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mentor figure that gets the important exposition out of the way. And he gets killed by the bad a guy too, how similar.
Aegis! Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 The way I saw things in M0 was that there really was no mystical or magical mumbojumbo, it was all technology and genetics, wich IMO was the real conflict in the series: The old world vs the new one, myths vs technological facts, what was believed to be mysthical was actually Alien technology ( Kadun = machines/AFOS, Bird-people= PC/AFOS/valks). AFAIK, the original series just barely explained some things about the PC, so nothing is set in stone yet. We don´t know what they were capable of physiologically, let alone the extent of their technology (were zentradi and th evil series really their limit ?). For all we know, the floating rocks in Zero could´ve been just remaining PC artifacts (remember the island use to be a vessel). If Kawamori was only going for the magical/mystical thing then he would´t have created the AFOS or had shown Aries analysing Mao´s blood sample to find out that she had a direct link to the PC.
chrono Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 AFAIK, the original series just barely explained some things about the PC, so nothing is set in stone yet. I have to say that they were better off being un-explored, because they've been such a "ghost of the past" motive story element that writing a story about them kinda ruins most of the Macross universe. Especially when they end up looking and acting human.
Max is a Genius Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 I'd go with Payne here. The whole cultural shock think went out of the window with M7, much with M0 they really started digging.. No offence but how can you call it if not magic when that girl start singing and flowers rise (lack of better term and limited dictionary heh) and stones start to levitate ? COME ON !! Genetics has nothing to do with that, unless we expect to see some kind of ESP powers in the next serie and that would be really really lame. Hell, even in M7's FOTSW, for all the faults that serie had, that retard convince the Meltran basically signing, no spiritia or other metaphisical bullcrap was involved there. Macross was a story of war and how people with different takes on the war, different lives and so on, dealt with that situation. Much like the origianl Gundam or Zambot 3, the story was about poeple and how they kept living in time of war. And as opposite a culture with no knowledge whatsoever of peace or being a civilians and how the interaction of the two culture shows that, hopefuly, the soldiers realize that fighting for the sake of it was pointles and peace is a far better solution. Sure it was a peace message written in a different, and not so different, world situation and with the cold war and all, peace messages trought the media where really important.
Duke Togo Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 Macross was a story of war and how people with different takes on the war, different lives and so on, dealt with that situation. Much like the origianl Gundam or Zambot 3, the story was about poeple and how they kept living in time of war. And as opposite a culture with no knowledge whatsoever of peace or being a civilians and how the interaction of the two culture shows that, hopefuly, the soldiers realize that fighting for the sake of it was pointles and peace is a far better solution. Sure it was a peace message written in a different, and not so different, world situation and with the cold war and all, peace messages trought the media where really important. QFT
GutsAndCasca Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 And he gets killed by the bad a guy too, how similar. GIRL, bad GIRL, Big F. Unless it's DYRL. Then my sincerest apologies are yours.
eugimon Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 GIRL, bad GIRL, Big F. Unless it's DYRL. Then my sincerest apologies are yours. Roy's death in DYRL mirrors SW much better than his death in SDFM.
azrael Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 Macross was a story of war and how people with different takes on the war, different lives and so on, dealt with that situation. Much like the origianl Gundam or Zambot 3, the story was about poeple and how they kept living in time of war. That was the story in 1982 back when the Gundam theme was popular. The themes for each Macross series change for each series. In M+, the theme was technology's impact on society. In M7, it was a conflict of ideology. In M0, we saw how people judge one another through initial impressions. The theme of each series changes and I expect the same out of the new series. I do not expect Kawamori to revisit any of these themes nor do I want him to. And all this talk of retcons...at this point, I've learned to just live with it. Eventually, someone is going to come along and say "I didn't like how it was done or explained, so I'm going to do it MY way." I have seen this in movies, TV shows, comics, blah blah blah. I hate it, but I've seen it done so many times, I expect someone to come along and say "F U. I'm going to do it my way. Screw what the last guy did. I like it my way and if I can do it, I will." That is what happened. That is what is going to happen. Even Kawamori will do it to himself. Why is it done? Cuz everybody has their own opinion of how it should be done and if they have the ability to do it, they will do it. When Kawamori passes the reigns to someone else for, that person will go back and say, "I want to do things my way" and make changes cuz he or she damn well can, hence a retcon. Some people will hate it. Some will like it. I really don't care cuz I know, it's going to happen.
Zinjo Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) I have to say that they were better off being un-explored, because they've been such a "ghost of the past" motive story element that writing a story about them kinda ruins most of the Macross universe. Especially when they end up looking and acting human. Exactly why I balk at the doomsday programming if the AFOS. It was far too human for a race that achieved such an advanced and a galactic society to lower themselves to "destroy it all, if it doesn't pass our final exam- Oh by the way we won't teach you how to pass before hand"... Though Azrael makes a good point. Their first attempt at passing the torch with Mac II fell flat (mostly because of poor execution in the early episodes, not to mention that the series pigeon holed the franchise too far into the future to make it even acceptable as a peice of movie fiction within the Studio Nue chronology) and that vision was much different from what SK then came up with a couple years later with Mac Plus. Edited July 20, 2007 by Zinjo
big F Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 The way I saw things in M0 was that there really was no mystical or magical mumbojumbo, it was all technology and genetics, wich IMO was the real conflict in the series: The old world vs the new one, myths vs technological facts, what was believed to be mysthical was actually Alien technology ( Kadun = machines/AFOS, Bird-people= PC/AFOS/valks). That how I saw/interpreted it even before I joined MW
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