sketchley Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I agree with Ginrai, but would like to add that Gamlin is also a focal point for the audience. As much as Mylene is the "everyman" for the girls in the audience, he is the "everyman/hero" the boys want to be. He is the Hikaru Ichijo for us old farts who grew up watching (and getting our minds blown away) by SDF:M or it's Robotech incarnation.
Ginrai Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I agree with Ginrai, but would like to add that Gamlin is also a focal point for the audience. As much as Mylene is the "everyman" for the girls in the audience, he is the "everyman/hero" the boys want to be. He is the Hikaru Ichijo for us old farts who grew up watching (and getting our minds blown away) by SDF:M or it's Robotech incarnation. Well kind of, but he is definitely not the protagonist. He doesn't even show up until several episodes into the series. I don't think Hikaru was quite as stick in the mud as Gamlin, but Gamlin is obviously a lot closer than Basara. I think a lot of people don't like Macross 7 because they think Basara is the main character and he is super difficult to relate to because he is aloof and somewhat arrogant, basically space John Lennon. The truth is Mylene has huge problems with Basara and his attitude so I don't understand why people who have the same problems with Basara aren't relating to her. My theory is that since she is a girl, people automatically discount her. Who is the one kicking ass in the VF-1J? Yeah, that would be Mylene, not Basara, not Gamlin.
terry the lone wolf Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I have argued this before and I will argue it again: Mylene is the main character of Macross 7. She is the character that is new to all the weirdness, she is the one people explain things to, she is the audience avatar, she is the character that it is easy to relate to, especially if you are 15 or whatever as the show's intended audience was. She is the one the love triangle focuses on. Basara is kind of in the position of Roy combined with Misa. He is the older, more skilled pilot who is kind of a mentor, but he is also a somewhat cold, driven, and emotionally detached love interest. Yes, he is the popular singer like Minmay, but his personality is way more like Misa. Ginrai, I don't have a problem with Mylene being the main character of Mac 7 but I'd rather see a character more like her sister in MAC 2036 game. Even Silvie Gena(who incidently has Zentradie blood). I also agree that in Western culture writers do explore racial themes more but it's not totally alien in the East.
cyde01 Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Sigh, forget it, let's just go all the way with giant transforming capital ships. Instead of pin point barrier punches, lets have them doing martial arts in space. And then the captain can yell out moves like "Giant Swirling Plasma PUNCH" and the Battle 25 can gather up its chakra and get all blow and glowy and then unleash it's devastating martial arts attack. Or better yet, with the new improved humanoid form, instead of having a singer on the deck singing, the whole capital ship can sing and dance! Whole fleets of capital ships doing dance routines, like n'sync in space! How awesome would that be??? be careful what u wish for dude, it is a teenage school drama after all. kawamori might just grant that wish!!! lol i can see it now, the VF cheerleading squad rooting for their high school football team.. edit: Basara is kind of in the position of Roy combined with Misa. He is the older, more skilled pilot who is kind of a mentor, but he is also a somewhat cold, driven, and emotionally detached love interest. Yes, he is the popular singer like Minmay, but his personality is way more like Misa. Basara is like Misa!!??? lol on that one Edited June 19, 2007 by cyde01
jenius Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I would say Mylene is more like Hikaru than Gamlin is. I also think people dismiss her because she is so easily dismissed, not because she is a girl. There are strong female characters in Mac7 that are a bit tougher to dismiss, Rex, Miria, Sivil but Mylene is just fluff. She takes all the things that drive us crazy about Hikaru and exemplifies them even more. Like Hikaru though, she redeems herself toward the end of the series but again, she does it in a manner that's not as satisfying. Gamlin plays a good foil to Basara but I don't think he's really all that comparable to any of the cast in the original SDF:M. He's too straight-laced to be Hayao or Hikaru and not talented enough to be Max. As much as anyone would like to say M7 is not about Basara you pretty much have to ignore the fact that every single episode is about him to do so. He overwhelms every aspect of the plot so much that he doesn't even have to be present or involved all that much before he has grabbed the viewer (often for worse rather than better). Sigh, forget it, let's just go all the way with giant transforming capital ships. Instead of pin point barrier punches, lets have them doing martial arts in space. And then the captain can yell out moves like "Giant Swirling Plasma PUNCH" and the Battle 25 can gather up its chakra and get all blow and glowy and then unleash it's devastating martial arts attack. Or better yet, with the new improved humanoid form, instead of having a singer on the deck singing, the whole capital ship can sing and dance! Whole fleets of capital ships doing dance routines, like n'sync in space! How awesome would that be??? I hope someone at least mocks this up... it sounds too awesome.
Zinjo Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Mylene was Otaku eye candy or (lolicon depending on your bend), Basara was the distant unatainable rock star of every schoolgirl's dreams and Gamlin was more like the "school everyboy" that was the devoted friend, but never taken seriously as a love interest. The show was the most marketing driven show of the franchise, so such cliche'd character types should be expected. Very cleaverly done, if you look at it from a purely marketing point of view. Yoshiki Fukuyama's music was the main focus of the show (I suspect the record company contributed the most to the show's budget to carry that kind of clout) so Basara got the most screentime and thus so did his music. With an unknown voice, BigWest will be able to control that aspect of the show better this time around. much like SDFM. Makes one wonder how much of the show is actually SK's vision and outline and how much was driven by the sponsors' demands for "more music"? Edited June 19, 2007 by Zinjo
mechaninac Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I tend to agree that Mylene is the protagonist in M7. Basara is more akin to the White Whale in Moby Dick... a force of nature; you can try to fight it, you can roll with it, or try to get out of it's way, but you can't ignore it. I'm just hoping that the new series will further the Human Zentradi integration, expand on the PC and SA background, maybe tie in a bit with M0 in order to shed some light to the events shown in that OVA, and most important, remain true to the slightly more "mature" narrative of SDFM, M+, and M0 (keep the over the top, goofball stuff in M7 only).
lord_breetai Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 Mylene was Otaku eye candy or (lolicon depending on your bend), Basara was the distant unatainable rock star of every schoolgirl's dreams and Gamlin was more like the "school everyboy" that was the devoted friend, but never taken seriously as a love interest. The show was the most marketing driven show of the franchise, so such cliche'd character types should be expected. Very cleaverly done, if you look at it from a purely marketing point of view. I agree that the characters fit into certain Archetypes but they don't feel like cardboard cut outs, (at least Mylene doesn't)... I guess Gamlin and Basara do I'll be honest there. Mylene seemed to get a lot more screen time then Basara in the early episodes and was through her that most of the conflict was revealed, she was the only one who regularly talked to all three of the major parties involved (the Mayor's office, the Battle 7 Command and of course Fire Bomber). She was stuck in the middle of Military vs Politics, Max and Millia's arguing and everything else. So while she was deffenitly eye candy, she along with Ray were the most human characters in the show, (Well Max, Millia and Exedore aswell but of course they're not new characters). Bottom line there is no story without Mylene.
Ginrai Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 Basara is like Misa!!??? lol on that one Did you even read what I said? Basara has a similar role in Macross 7 to the one Misa has in Macross: Cold, distant love interest.
Aegis! Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I tend to agree that Mylene is the protagonist in M7. Basara is more akin to the White Whale in Moby Dick... a force of nature; you can try to fight it, you can roll with it, or try to get out of it's way, but you can't ignore it. I'm just hoping that the new series will further the Human Zentradi integration, expand on the PC and SA background, maybe tie in a bit with M0 in order to shed some light to the events shown in that OVA, and most important, remain true to the slightly more "mature" narrative of SDFM, M+, and M0 (keep the over the top, goofball stuff in M7 only). My feelings precisely.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I don;t like the idea of a humanoid battleship. Hopefully they create a good reason for why the military would use such a thing later. The best excuse is that the deadalus manuever combined with the pinpoint barrier allows it to ram the carrier into a ship so that it can blow one up from the inside out using reaction missiles for times where there is not enough power left for another shot of the main gun or if the enemy has somehow folded before the shot reaches. Having a backup method to kill something might work but that is still a bit weak to justify having it. But considering that it is such an unpredictable move (not even exedol would expect when first seen - remember the pin point barrier was found by accident) it could be useful when outnumbered and you only want to kill the leader. (zentradi are mindless children without others to order them around) Another reason might be that it is just more manueverable in that mode for defending a zone. You have the feet pointing towards the floor, (like how the gerwalk adds VTOL to the valk) the thrusters at the back and front, and the ability to punch for suicide attackers who just don't care anymore about losing a ship to get to you. When outnumbered, the possibility for close combat increases as your attention is now divided and there is lag between attacks which give opportunities for the enemy to surround you. I think it would be easier to steer in robot mode for some reason. You'd be able to retreat while facing them so you could buy time for another shot of the gun as it recharges.
Graham Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Well kind of, but he is definitely not the protagonist. He doesn't even show up until several episodes into the series. I don't think Hikaru was quite as stick in the mud as Gamlin, but Gamlin is obviously a lot closer than Basara. IIRC, Gamlin is in the series right from episode 1. While it's true he get's Milia's VF-1J trashed, he certainly kicks serious ass in his VF-17D/S and VF-11C. Graham
lord_breetai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 (edited) uhm maybe you're in the wrong forum, this is a forum for macross, not this gunbuster you keep dredging up to validate the massive deux ex machina you seem so fond of. I'm not fond of it... I'm saying that's anime they always seem to just have the perfect solution for anything... well that's true for any movie. It's not any more Deus Ex then just randomly finding out the Macross's components can move around and reconfigure when it was never ment to why can it... there has to be an easier way to fix the circut. Anyway... I hope it's not too much of a "boo hoo, I'm a discriminated Zentradie, feel for me!" there's enough stuff like that out there. You want to see Macross with racial overtones... watch Exosquad. I mean the discrimination thing can be done well (as in Exosquad), but I dunno... if it's the whole focus of the series I don't think it'll be all that great. Edited June 20, 2007 by lord_breetai
wolfx Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 I dun really think Macross should go down the road of racial overtones either. I do find it odd that Zentradi were easily assimilated into human society in....what...20-30 years? But the whole racial card has been played too often. And i feel this makes Macross unique, that Zents were easily intergrated into human society probably due to their acceptance of culture and also the humans were more or less wiped out, so all the religious zealots and tyrants were already killed on earth.
lord_breetai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 I dun really think Macross should go down the road of racial overtones either. I do find it odd that Zentradi were easily assimilated into human society in....what...20-30 years? But the whole racial card has been played too often. And i feel this makes Macross unique, that Zents were easily intergrated into human society probably due to their acceptance of culture and also the humans were more or less wiped out, so all the religious zealots and tyrants were already killed on earth. Not to mention the Reconstruction episodes kind of covered that already... and Robotech Universe dealt with it a lot.
lord_breetai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 IIRC, Gamlin is in the series right from episode 1. Uh yeah, of course he's there right from the Start telling Basara to shut up... we just don't see him in a non-military capacity for several episodes.
RDClip Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 IIRC, Gamlin is in the series right from episode 1. I guess people don't remember much of Gamlin before he started his storyline with Mylene (i know that was one of the few things about Mac7 i did like) As for the Zentraedi racial thing. I'd really hate to see an entire Macross series about this, we went through that with Gundam SEED (and Wing Commander movie ) that it wouldn't seem new at all. Maybe have one old-timer that was around in SW 1 who still has resentment for zents, but not a series where the entire society is split.
Keith Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Basara gets center role in the intro, he gets the most screen time, has more songs, and is at the crux of the final battle. Mylene is not. As such, Basara is clearly the lead character.
Aegis! Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 BOOOOOMBA! Sorry about that. Back to topic, did anyone notice the new valks have closed cockpits/canopy like the YF-21 ( well, similar ) and the variable glaug ? I´m thinking Kawamori might want to include the YF-21 interface in the new valkyries. Of course, this could change over time since these are all rough ideas, but based on what we have so far, it sounds great. Look at this:
Radd Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 I don't think anyone is questioning that Basara is central to the story. Just, from a writing perspective, is Basara a character, or an idea? Though his character is developed through back story and various character's influence on his behaviour, Basara developes the least of any leading character in the series. Basara is who he is, and he knows the sort of person he is, his biggest drive is to make people understand how he sees things. He has his flaws, none of them appear except in fleeting circumstances. In some ways he has some growing up to do, but by and large he has the most mature "big picture" outlook on life of anyone in the series. Barara is the Herlock to Mylene's Tadashi Daiba, as it were. Sure, Herlock flies his flag, and conquers the frontiers of space with his indomitable will, but Daiba is the main "character". The central character from the storytelling perspective, the one who grows and evolves with the story. The one we follow as he's drawn along with the force of nature named Herlock.
Radd Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Back to topic, did anyone notice the new valks have closed cockpits/canopy like the YF-21 ( well, similar ) and the variable glaug ? I´m thinking Kawamori might want to include the YF-21 interface in the new valkyries. Of course, this could change over time since these are all rough ideas, but based on what we have so far, it sounds great. I'd guess the more likely scenario is video panels inside the cockpit dome. Give the pilot more protection. Of course, it's all speculation at this point. We'll see.
lord_breetai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Basara gets center role in the intro, he gets the most screen time, has more songs, and is at the crux of the final battle. Mylene is not. As such, Basara is clearly the lead character. Minmay is the crux of the main battle in Macross... Hikaru get's knocked out and then goes down to Earth and rescues Misa which does nothing for the war effort, He does nothing in the battle against Bodolza (movie version aside here). Anyway I think the most powerful image in the opening if we were to go by that, is when we see all of Firebomber's faces then all of the City/Military elites then we see Mylene, almost implying that she is in the middle. Also I would be really suprised if Basara has all that much more screen time then Mylene if you discount Dynamite, Encore and the Movie. Mylene is the character who all the drama and conflict is generated.
Zinjo Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 (edited) I don't think anyone is questioning that Basara is central to the story. Just, from a writing perspective, is Basara a character, or an idea? Though his character is developed through back story and various character's influence on his behaviour, Basara developes the least of any leading character in the series. Basara is who he is, and he knows the sort of person he is, his biggest drive is to make people understand how he sees things. He has his flaws, none of them appear except in fleeting circumstances. In some ways he has some growing up to do, but by and large he has the most mature "big picture" outlook on life of anyone in the series. Barara is the Herlock to Mylene's Tadashi Daiba, as it were. Sure, Herlock flies his flag, and conquers the frontiers of space with his indomitable will, but Daiba is the main "character". The central character from the storytelling perspective, the one who grows and evolves with the story. The one we follow as he's drawn along with the force of nature named Herlock. Well put. There are racial overtones in Macross, just not a specific story line is devoted to it. Both the Megaroad 13 and Macross 5 missions were both predominately Zentreadi in population, not human. Which tends to imply that there is a racial issue between the two, but not something the producers are interested in exploring. Edited June 20, 2007 by Zinjo
jenius Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Just because Basara is a poorly written character it doesn't make him less of a character. Sure, of the two, Mylene is more complex, but Basara is still a lead character AND symbolic of a certain mindset. What irked me most is his mindset is also flawed and in the end he appears to be right without anyone really having learned anything. If only A1 hadn't earned that lifetime ban... I hope the new show has a character with drive and ambition who doesn't devolve into some silly fanatic of ill-gotten causes like Basara. If UN Spacy's answer to new alien threats is "We'll just throw our crazies at them in expensive flamboyantly painted valks" then I'll be rooting for the destruction of mankind.
TheLoneWolf Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 I don't think anyone is questioning that Basara is central to the story. Just, from a writing perspective, is Basara a character, or an idea? Though his character is developed through back story and various character's influence on his behaviour, Basara developes the least of any leading character in the series. Basara is who he is, and he knows the sort of person he is, his biggest drive is to make people understand how he sees things. He has his flaws, none of them appear except in fleeting circumstances. In some ways he has some growing up to do, but by and large he has the most mature "big picture" outlook on life of anyone in the series. Barara is the Herlock to Mylene's Tadashi Daiba, as it were. Sure, Herlock flies his flag, and conquers the frontiers of space with his indomitable will, but Daiba is the main "character". The central character from the storytelling perspective, the one who grows and evolves with the story. The one we follow as he's drawn along with the force of nature named Herlock. That's the best summation of Basara and Mylene that I've ever read.
Ginrai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Oh, really? I guess I need to re-watch those first few episodes, but I didn't remember Gamlin showing up until Miria tried to hook him and Mylene up. My mistake. And Radd, I completely agree with you. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
chrono Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Basara is who he is, and he knows the sort of person he is, his biggest drive is to make people understand how he sees things. Granted I've not seen the entire series yet, I'm only up to 15 right now, but Basara does not want people to understand him because his arrogance and pride in perceiving himself to be correct or "righteous" prevents him from actually telling people just why they should "Listen to my song!". OR he simply can not verbally express his ideas in language though I highly doubt that because he is a singer. His is the childish attitude of "I'll do it my way and if you don't understand tough luck because I'm gonna stand in your way anyhow!". Basically the worst freatures of Minmay and Kial(spl) combine into one character. He has his flaws, none of them appear except in fleeting circumstances. In nearly every episode I've seen, so far, those flaws appear. None more so than his near continuous abrasive haughty attitude towards Mylene and his blaming other for his own actions. I frankly find that his character was written with the expectations of the native culture firmly ingrained in the viewer. I just how that we get more info on the new series soon!
Valkyrie addict Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Oh, really? I guess I need to re-watch those first few episodes, but I didn't remember Gamlin showing up until Miria tried to hook him and Mylene up. My mistake. And Radd, I completely agree with you. That's exactly what I was trying to say. of course he showed up from episode 1 and on... on the opening credits
cyde01 Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Did you even read what I said? Basara has a similar role in Macross 7 to the one Misa has in Macross: Cold, distant love interest. sorry i just never saw Misa being cold, driven, and emotionally detached. you make her sound like rei. lol
Ginrai Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 sorry i just never saw Misa being cold, driven, and emotionally detached. you make her sound like rei. lol What? Rei is a blank slate, flopping around with no personality. Misa has a super hard time relating to anyone, feels distanced by her job and her drive to succeed. The only one she really relates to is Claudia. She has a superficial relationship with the bridge bunnies, but she doesn't open up to them, hell, they are always gossipping about her love life. How supportive. It takes alcohol to get her loosen enough to even open up to Hikaru a bit, and this is like 30 episodes into the show. She won't tell anyone about her issues over Riber. Of course she is driven and emotionally detached.
sketchley Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Granted I've not seen the entire series yet, I'm only up to 15 right now, Please refrain from commenting on an entire series until you have seen the entire series.
Duke Togo Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Please refrain from commenting on an entire series until you have seen the entire series. He was spot on, though.
Sumdumgai Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 My guess on the closed cockpit is that it has display systems not unlike the YF-19 (the displays taking up all of the cockpit that was not canopy or seat). On the plus side if this type of canopy is finalized, it means we don't have to worry about a heatshield or anything to cover the cockpit in battroid mode.
sketchley Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Spot on or not, it's still bad to comment on the entirety of something without having experienced the entirety of it. After all, didn't Isamu Dyson make a similar point to Myung in the 3rd episode of Macross Plus?
Recommended Posts